Sons of Peter McNeeley- Boxing Thread

[BGrif21125]

The reasons I'm picking Taylor:
1. Pavlik is coming off by far the best performance of his career, while Taylor is coming off the ugliest of his career. Because of that, I think people are overrating Pavlik a bit and discounting Taylor.
Not that Pavlik isn't a good fighter, he definitely deserved this title shot and has a very good shot at winning. I just think he's getting extra hype as the Next Big Thing right now, somewhat like Miranda was a few months ago.

2. Taylor's entire attack is based around his great jab, so because of that, he's the last guy who should ever be fighting southpaws. It's incredibly tough for a conventional fighter to land his jab against a southpaw, especially fighters as slick as Winky and Spinks. Taylor can actually use his biggest weapon this time.
As bad as he looked the last couple fights, this is still a guy who went 2-0-1 against Hopkins and Wright, and Kelly Pavlik has done nothing to do this point to convince me he's better than those two opponents.

I'm rooting for Taylor, but this is a win/win situation IMO. As long as it's a good fight, it's a good result for boxing either way. If Taylor wins, it reaffirms all the hype he got after beating Hopkins. If Pavlik wins, there's a new American star on the scene in a glamour weight class. Either scenario is a good thing.

As far as Floyd/Hatton goes, I may have already stated this before so forgive me for the repetition, but this is just an AWFUL style matchup for Hatton. There's always this adage in boxing that the way to be an elite speed fighter is with a relentless body attack, and I've always completely disagreed with it. A long jab is what neutralizes speed. Charging in and trying to wail away to the body, that's not the way to beat someone like Mayweather. Floyd can just back up and counter all night long, while Hatton gets exhausted from chasing him.

Paul Williams could give Floyd all types of problems because of his height, reach and jab (and because of this, I'd be shocked if Floyd ever fights him). A prime Vernon Forrest could have given Floyd similar problems. A short fighter with short arms and no jab has virtually no chance against an opponent with Floyd's style. And that's what Ricky Hatton is, a short fighter with short arms and no jab.

 

[Gene Conleys Plane Ticket]

The reasons I'm picking Taylor:
1. Pavlik is coming off by far the best performance of his career, while Taylor is coming off the ugliest of his career. Because of that, I think people are overrating Pavlik a bit and discounting Taylor.
Not that Pavlik isn't a good fighter, he definitely deserved this title shot and has a very good shot at winning. I just think he's getting extra hype as the Next Big Thing right now, somewhat like Miranda was a few months ago.

2. Taylor's entire attack is based around his great jab, so because of that, he's the last guy who should ever be fighting southpaws. It's incredibly tough for a conventional fighter to land his jab against a southpaw, especially fighters as slick as Winky and Spinks. Taylor can actually use his biggest weapon this time.
As bad as he looked the last couple fights, this is still a guy who went 2-0-1 against Hopkins and Wright, and Kelly Pavlik has done nothing to do this point to convince me he's better than those two opponents.

I doubt anyone would say that Pavlik is "better" than Bernard Hopkins or Winky Wright, but we all know that in a sport where "styles make fights" the "better" fighter doesn't always have the advantage. I think you make a good point about Taylor being perhaps underrated based on his most recent two fights. And in Pavlik's most recent two fights he faced two tough, strong, dangerous guys in Miranda and Zertuche, but neither had anything like Taylor's boxing skills. I think this a pick 'em fight, but if I had to pick, I'd go with Pavlik based on power, chin and, perhaps most importantly, his ability to come up with a game plan and stick to it. I think he can hurt Taylor more than Taylor can hurt him, and I have a feeling he will have taken Taylor's jabbing ability into account in his plan. Again, this is a tough one to call, but I'll take Pavlik by late stoppage.

As far as Floyd/Hatton goes, I may have already stated this before so forgive me for the repetition, but this is just an AWFUL style matchup for Hatton. There's always this adage in boxing that the way to be an elite speed fighter is with a relentless body attack, and I've always completely disagreed with it. A long jab is what neutralizes speed. Charging in and trying to wail away to the body, that's not the way to beat someone like Mayweather. Floyd can just back up and counter all night long, while Hatton gets exhausted from chasing him.

Paul Williams could give Floyd all types of problems because of his height, reach and jab (and because of this, I'd be shocked if Floyd ever fights him). A prime Vernon Forrest could have given Floyd similar problems. A short fighter with short arms and no jab has virtually no chance against an opponent with Floyd's style. And that's what Ricky Hatton is, a short fighter with short arms and no jab.

Floyd will never fight Paul Williams. Williams has plenty of flaws as a fighter, but his freakish physical stature and work rate make him absolute hell on any welterweight. If and when Williams moves up to middleweight, super-middle or even light-heavy, I think we'll see a good-but-not-great fighter who won't be able to compete effectively at the elite levels.

I agree with your take on Hatton-Mayweather. Here's how I'm expecting this fight to unfold:

Hatton's game consists of lunging, even leaping in, throwing a couple of admittedly quick, hard punches then holding. He does this over and over again and is difficult to deter. It may take Floyd about three rounds to adjust to Hatton's relentlessness, but once he does, by the fourth round or so, I think we'll see him rake Hatton with sharp flurries as Hatton comes in, possibly cutting him badly, then getting out of the way. I expect that after maybe three rounds of this punishment, Hatton will try to go into his boxing, jabbing mode which he showed in the early part of the Urango fight. At that point, he will really be no match for Floyd, who will then come forward a bit more, looking for a stoppage. If the stoppage doesn't come by round eight or nine, Floyd will back off and be content to dance and potshot his way to a one-sided decision. The early rounds of the fight are Hatton's only chance to do some damage. But Floyd is too quick and more than likely, he'll spend most of those rounds just ducking and shoulder-rolling before getting his actual fight into gear and cruising.

 

[eddiew112]

I pick Pavlik to win the fight. From what I can see, Pavlik can hurt anyone, and if he can walk through Miranda's right hand, I don't think that Taylor can hurt him. That said, Taylor has one of the finest jabs in boxing, and if he can establish it early in the fight, he makes this fight a toss-up. Taylor has looked mediocre in his last two fights, so I expect he will show up this time. However, Pavlik's defense isn't bad, and he will probably focus specifically on neutralizing Taylor's jab. I agree with Gene, late round stoppage for Pavlik.

You guys have said it all about the Hatton-Mayweather fight. I would love Ricky to win, but he doesn't have much of a chance.

Interesting thought about how to neutralize a speed fighter, Grif. On principle, I agree with you. But, if you are fighting a supremely quick fighter such as Floyd, not only will he beat up to the punch on HIS jab, but he will also look to counter with his right. This applies very closely to Floyd because of his unique stance, which is a great counter-punching stance. This happened to De La Hoya. He had his best offensive success when he worked off his jab, but it also meant he got clocked with a couple of good, quick counter rights. After that happens more than three times, you cannot bring yourself to keep throwing the jab. It's fucking hard. I remember fighting speed demons, it is not fun. You feel helpless. Personally, because my advantage in the ring was my knowledge of the sport, I worked on cutting off the ring and getting 20-30 seconds in each round where I could unload. If I was going to a tournament where I knew there were quicker fighters, I would get a kid who was around 140 in the ring (I was around 175-185) and I would work on cutting him off for like an hour and a half everyday. Even in the amateurs, there were a couple fights when the body shots paid off in the final round. So both strategies can work, but I think using your jab to neutralize a speed fighter is too tough, unless your jab is your best weapon and he doesn't have a good one (certainly not the case with Hatton and Floyd).

 

[BGrif21125]

Interesting points, Eddie.
The one thing I'll stress is that when I was talking about jabs neturalizing speed, I was specifically talking about fighters with long jabs.
Your points about the DLH fight were right on the money. The only times Oscar had success were when he jabbed. However, he couldn't jab without getting countered, so Floyd's counter right prevented him from jabbing consistently. However, a lot of that was because Oscar didn't have a reach advantage. Oscar was taller, but Floyd actually had longer arms.

A fighter like Williams, or a younger Forrest, would have enjoyed significant arm length advantages against Floyd, so theoretcially they would have been able to jab without getting countered by the right hand in return. Look at what Forrest did to Mosley in their two fights. Now, Mosley is not as technically sound and well-rounded a fighter as Floyd is, but they share some similar qualities in terms of size and athleticism.

So it's not just the jab that can stop Floyd, it has to be a jab AND a reach advantage. If there is no reach advantage, then the jab will get countered consistently by Floyd. Right now among the welters, Williams is the only guy who presents this problem, and therefore there's no way Floyd bothers fighting him. In fact, I bet Williams is at 154 within the next 12 months.

Getting back to Taylor-Pavlik, this should be one of those fights that's easy to handicap from the opening bell. It's all about Taylor's jab. If he comes out in Round 1, and he's not jabbing and he's moving backward towards the ropes, then it's Pavlik's fight to lose. If Taylor is throwing 25-30 jabs a round and standing his ground in the center of the ring, then it's his fight to lose.

This fight is really all about ring generalship.

 

[BGrif21125]

It's going to be Peter vs. McCline.

That's a good job of finding a quality replacement on short notice.

 

[ElUno20]

Jermaine Taylor is a sheep in wolves' clothing. We are now going on the 5th straight fight that he's going to start putting it together, unleashing the jab and being aggressive. I'm sick and tired of hearing how he's going back to how he used to fight (against lower tier fighters). If you're afraid to open up against two junior middleweights, it's not in you. I'm really pulling for Pavlik and think he'll hurt JT bad in this one. Just to hear Jim Lampley cry on air.

 

[BGrif21125]

Jermaine Taylor is a sheep in wolves' clothing. We are now going on the 5th straight fight that he's going to start putting it together, unleashing the jab and being aggressive.

I don't mean to come off as a total Taylor apologist, but I really think that he should only be criticized for his last two fights, not 4 or 5.

Yes, his fights with Hopkins were slow-paced and technical, but what Hopkins fight isn't slow-paced? No one ever looks good against Hopkins. The fact remains that there's only one fighter in the last 14 years who has beaten Hopkins, and that's Jermain Taylor.

His fight against Winky was actually a really good fight. I just re-watched it a few weeks ago and I was surprised at how back and forth it was. I thought the draw was a legit decision. Winky is a great defensive fighter, and yet he was cut and bruised after 12 rounds, which means Taylor landed plenty of hard, clean shots.

Taylor's performances against both Ouma and Spinks were disappointing. There is no getting around that. Even if his jab was nullified by their southpaw stances, he still should have been able to find a way to impose his size and strength on them. He failed both times to do that. He deserves to get criticized for those fights.

 

[ElUno20]

We'll probably just have to agree to disagree. I think Hopkins whooped his ass in both fights. Winky put a beating on him and backed HIM up, the same feather fisted Winky who hasn't knocked out anybody of note out in years hurt Taylor bad in that fight. You watch those later rounds were Taylor was looking to clinching b/c he was hurt. I've watched Winky/Taylor 3 three times, there's no way he needed that 12th round. No way. But there's probably some bias there. See, there's just nothing Taylor does that impresses me. He's not really that good of a boxer and his power has always been overrated.

I'm just hoping Pavlik brings it and doesn't pull a Juarez on the big stage. B/C if you give Taylor the chance, he'll coast to a 12 round decision rather than mix it up.

 

[BGrif21125]

This is a great undercard fight.

 

[shawnrbu]

^Yes it was.

And that main event was so awesome. Thank you, Smoger for not stopping that fight in Round 2! A far worse ref would have prevented the better fighter from eventually winning.

 

[Montana Fan]

Holy shit what a great fight. My wife just commented that the best golfer is black, the middleweight champ is white and the tallest player in the NBA is chinese. FYI - she didn't watch the fight just came through the room at the end.

 

[BGrif21125]

In a year of great fights, that was the Fight of the Year. I thought Marquez-Vazquez II had that honor all sewn up, but this one was even better.

I picked Taylor (and felt pretty good about my pick in Round 2), but I don't mind being proven wrong when it's that entertaining, that's for sure. Taylor had to win the jabbing competition, and the jabbing ended up about even.

The other big fights this fall have a high standard to live up to. I would've gladly paid $49.95 to see this one, seeing it for free was pretty awesome.

 

[Forever Red 9]

Figures, the one weekend I don't stay at home I miss a great fight on HBO. Oh well, I'll catch the replays this week. Did Taylor look good and just get knocked out or did he look lethargic and like a beaten fighter all night?

 

[BGrif21125]

Did Taylor look good and just get knocked out or did he look lethargic and like a beaten fighter all night?

He knocked down Pavlik in Round 2 and almost knocked him out. Both guys fought great.

 

[shawnrbu]

Figures, the one weekend I don't stay at home I miss a great fight on HBO. Oh well, I'll catch the replays this week. Did Taylor look good and just get knocked out or did he look lethargic and like a beaten fighter all night?

Definitely not the latter, but he didn't "just get knocked out" either. Pavlik was backing Taylor up most of the fight, but Taylor was doing OK in minimizing the assault by getting off the ropes and fighting back. It looked for all intents and purposes that Taylor would thrash Pavlik in 2 Rounds. Pavlik hung tough and fought a wonderful 3rd Round. Pavlik's jab was better than I had expected. In my opinion, each fighter clearly won 2 rounds each (1 and 3 to Pavlik, 2 and 5 to Taylor w/ 2 being a 10-8) while Round 4 and 6 could have gone either way. Not surprisingly, Taylor was up by 3 on two scorecards and up by an insane 5 points on another.

Did anybody catch the line Merchant had about blood being on his shirt? I can't remember the exact wording, but loved the way he said it live. I'm so glad Larry was there to give his insight tonight (Merchant pointed out how many of Taylor's punches were being blocked which is something Lampley wasn't about to mention).

 

[BGrif21125]

In my opinion, each fighter clearly won 2 rounds each (1 and 3 to Pavlik, 2 and 5 to Taylor w/ 2 being a 10-8) while Round 4 and 6 could have gone either way. Not surprisingly, Taylor was up by 3 on two scorecards and up by an insane 5 points on another.

Ya those scorecards were definitely off.
I had it 57-56 Pavlik... 57-56 Taylor would have been understandable as well.

Did anybody catch the line Merchant had about blood being on his shirt? I can't remember the exact wording, but loved the way he said it live.

The same thing actually happened to Lampley a few months ago during the Humberto Soto-Bobby Pacquiao fight, on the Cotto-Judah undercard.

 

[eddiew112]

Great, great stuff tonight. I cannot understand how Taylor was up on all three judges scorecards..but that is besides the point. One thing I noticed was Pavlik's intelligence and poise in the ring. He lured Taylor into corners and controlled the center of the ring the entire fight. A masterful job of ring generalship. And, despite the obvious lapse in Round 2, his defense was very good tonight as well. He was doing a great job of blocking shots, especially Jermain's right hand. He also matched Taylor jab for jab. What a performance from Pavlik.

All of that said, Jermain Taylor fought very well. His jab looked solid, his combos looked solid, and he displayed his will tonight. He fought off the ropes and held Pavlik off like a true champion. It would certainly be tough to question his heart after tonight. I think Jermain could have done a better job with defense, especially on the jab. He was effective early slipping the right, but there was little to no head movement on the jab and no attempt to block it. It may have cost him the fight. Let's see the rematch!

Hopefully this will be the start to what looks like a superb fall and winter of boxing.

 

[BigA27]

Tremendous fight.

I think the real difference was Pavlik knew how finish the show, while Taylor looked stunned that he had Pavlik hurt.

Pavlik showed heart, resilience, and a surprisingly good jab. Taylor had him on queer street, he recovered and outboxed him. I had Pavlik up by one point at the end of the 6th. The 7th was incredible, Pavlik landed straight rights down the pipe at will. The last two he landed were massive and had Taylor in trouble. Pavlik closed the show like a professional, mixing his punches well and landing with authority.

It was a great fight with good back and forth. Pavlik showed a warriors heart and a warriors punch. Very impressive.

 

[BGrif21125]

I think the real difference was Pavlik knew how finish the show, while Taylor looked stunned that he had Pavlik hurt.

I think you can also flip it around, and say that Pavlik knew how to react when he got hurt, whereas Taylor didn't. When Pavlik got up from the knockdown, he was badly stunned, but he knew how to hold on and kill time, which is what a professional does, and it helped him survive the round.

When Taylor got hurt in the 7th, he backed up into the corner and just tried to cover up. He should've tried to hold, or even taken a knee. It might not have made any difference in the end, but it would've given more of a chance to survive the 7th.

 

[shawnrbu]

Ya those scorecards were definitely off.
I had it 57-56 Pavlik... 57-56 Taylor would have been understandable as well.

ESPN (Not sure if that is Rafael or not) gave every round to Taylor:
http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/boxing/ne...tory?id=3041197

Does anybody else think Taylor and Steward are finished as a team? In the postfight interview, Taylor was surprised to learn he was ahead on all three scorecards and he made it a point to mention he wasted too much energy because he thought he was losing. Manny had been telling him he was behind and it's not like their partnership has been anything but a major blunder to this point anyway.

Is Pavlik now the favorite for Fighter of the Year? 3 KO's on HBO, two of which were against highly regarded middleweights.

 

[BigA27]

think you can also flip it around, and say that Pavlik knew how to react when he got hurt, whereas Taylor didn't. When Pavlik got up from the knockdown, he was badly stunned, but he knew how to hold on and kill time, which is what a professional does, and it helped him survive the round.

When Taylor got hurt in the 7th, he backed up into the corner and just tried to cover up. He should've tried to hold, or even taken a knee. It might not have made any difference in the end, but it would've given more of a chance to survive the 7th.

That is a solid point. However, Pavlik did not at first clinch and kill time, he got up and started swinging, which almost led to him getting dropped a second time.

I was stunned at the score cards. I had it 4-2 Pavlik, so with the knockdown I had him him up one point going into the 7th. I feel you could make an argument over the 4th round, but I thought Pavlik's jab and aggression won it for him.

 

[ElUno20]

My hatred for Taylor is damn near yankee-like. I almost shitted my pants during the second round. To Taylor and Manny's credit he looked as good as he's ever looked on the elite level. But what has killed Taylor all along reared it's ugly head, he fight's going backwards with no defense. After that 2nd round, the same old Taylor started to creep out. That sheep in wolves' clothing.

What a way to start off the fall schedule. That atmosphere, drama, and intensity was unreal. When boxing produces fights like that, no other sport can compare. And those cards don't surprise me. This was a Jermaine "HBO/Dibella Productions" Taylor fight. You gotta knock him out to get a draw. Kill him to get a win.

 

[Gene Conleys Plane Ticket]

Definitely a serious FOY candidate and one of the most exciting fights I've seen in a while. Even though he lost, Taylor won back a lot of the respect I used to have for him. But really, those scorecards were ridiculous. Still, Taylor obviously showed up for a fight and didn't shy away from it. As he, himself, acknowledged, he should have finished Pavlik in the second round, but he got overexcited and started throwing wild punches, rather than picking his shots. A solid uppercut or two would have ended the fight right there.

Taylor reminds me of a "tools" player in baseball -- like a Raul Mondesi or for that matter a JD Drew. He's got all the physical and athletic ability in the world, but there's just something missing -- that indefinable something that turns an "athlete" into a great fighter (or ballplayer or whatever).

Pavlik on the other hand looks to be completely the opposite. There doesn't seem to be one outstandingly impressive thing about him, but somehow, the total package is a dominant fighter. His handspeed is OK but not great, his footwork is elementary. He obviously has power, but his punches don't have that concussive look to them. He doesn't have a piledriver jab, or one big specialty punch. But he manages to take all of the skills that he does have and put them together into one hell of a boxer.

Right now, Pavlik's my leading candidate for fighter of the year. Three sensational knockouts against high-level opponents, each better than the one before, culminating in the legitimate middleweight championship. That's hard to beat.

If Miguel Cotto beats Shane Mosely, you could make a good case for him as well, and the Mayweather-Hatton winner will likely be a favorite as well. But right now, Kelly Pavlik is the man.

 

[BGrif21125]

It'll be interesting to see what happens with the rematch clause. Taylor has the right to demand a rematch, and he can demand the fight be over the middleweight limit at 166 pounds.

If he wants the rematch, then I think it's in his best interest to have the fight at 160 again. Pavlik certainly looked like the bigger guy, so going over the limit would help him more than Taylor IMO.

Berto looked great on the undercard. He proved he has boxing ability to go along with the raw power. His left hook to the body is a killer punch. Estrada showed a ton of guts in that fight. It would have been the best fight of the night on virtually any other card.

BTW, lost in the background of the great HBO card was the solid performance on Showtime by New Haven's Chad Dawson. He destroyed his opponent in 4 rounds. I'd love to see him get a title shot at 175, but I assume Hopkins would rather fight the Calzaghe-Kessler winner. Can't blame BHop for wanting to go that route: more money, more publicity, maybe an easier fight, etc.

Next week has quite an act to follow, but it should be really entertaining, with Pacquiao-Barrera II, Peter-McCline, and Amir Khan fighting for a title in the UK.

 

[ElUno20]

I did catch that Dawson fight. He looked great. Too bad for him Tarver ducked him.

 

[inter tatters]

Another World Title fight lost in the Taylor-Pavlik mayhem, was my home-town boy Clinton Woods successfully defending his IBF Light-Heavy belt against Julio Cesar Gonzalez in Sheffield, UK. I would have been at the bout, but I went to the Scotland-Italy game in the Rugby WC. It looks like Woods did it the hard way, winning on unanimous points 117-111, 115-113 116-112 though most observers thought it was much wider than that. Gonzalez has never been stopped so that's not a surprise. After two sets of surgery on nerve damage in his right elbow, it was a good comeback for Woods.

After the fight, Woods put out the call to Antonio Tarver, saying the 'He would sign up to fight Tarver tomorrow'. With Tarver losing his belt to B-Hop, does anyone think he'd take up that challenge? Money talks of course, but at 35 I suspect Woods just wants a couple of last hurrahs and a bit of cash to live on when he's done.

Woods target ex-Champ Tarver

 

[BGrif21125]

I'm somewhat torn on who I'm rooting for this weekend.

Erik Morales is one of my 5 favorite fighters of all-time, so it's always been close to impossible for me to root for Barrera.
Barrera/Morales is like Sox/Yanks, you can't really root for both. However, I think it'd be an amazing feat for an old Barrera to outbox a prime Pacquiao. A part of me would love to see that.

OTOH, Pacquiao-Marquez II is the biggest potential fight in all of boxing IMO, so for that reason part of me wants Pacquiao to win, in order to ensure that rematch in early '08.

 

[Jeff Van GULLY]

I don't comment that much in the Boxing thread because frankly, I haven't seen a lot of good fights lately. But I must say that Pavlik-Taylor fight was the best fight I've seen since the old Arturo Gatti-Mickey Ward matches or some old Prince Naseem matches.

Just excellent on all levels.

 

[Gene Conleys Plane Ticket]

Another World Title fight lost in the Taylor-Pavlik mayhem, was my home-town boy Clinton Woods successfully defending his IBF Light-Heavy belt against Julio Cesar Gonzalez in Sheffield, UK. I would have been at the bout, but I went to the Scotland-Italy game in the Rugby WC. It looks like Woods did it the hard way, winning on unanimous points 117-111, 115-113 116-112 though most observers thought it was much wider than that. Gonzalez has never been stopped so that's not a surprise. After two sets of surgery on nerve damage in his right elbow, it was a good comeback for Woods.

After the fight, Woods put out the call to Antonio Tarver, saying the 'He would sign up to fight Tarver tomorrow'. With Tarver losing his belt to B-Hop, does anyone think he'd take up that challenge? Money talks of course, but at 35 I suspect Woods just wants a couple of last hurrahs and a bit of cash to live on when he's done.

Woods target ex-Champ Tarver

That's all it is. There's no reason for Woods to fight Tarver, who is a shell of his former self (who was never THAT great to begin with) other than Tarver's name and the money it'll bring. If Woods really wanted to prove himself, he'd be calling out Chad Dawson, who I believe would start making appearances on pound-for-pound lists if he could ever get anyone to fight him. Unfortunately, he's in a division dominated by old guys looking to cash out like Hopkins, Tarver, Woods and RJJ who see no upside in taking on a young, hungry killer like Dawson. And there are no other "names" in the division right now.

Dawson would be best served by, if his body can do it, dropping down to 168. That's a talent rich division that will probably get even richer once Pavlik and Taylor move up. A showdown between Pavlik and Dawson, or even Taylor and Dawson has "classic" written all over it. Not to mention Dawson vs. the Calzaghe/Kessler winner.

As for this weekend's fights: I think the Peter-McCline heavyweight fight could surprise a lot of people. McCline is kind of an idiot, but if he decides to fight a smart fight, using his considerable height and reach advantages, he could give Peter a lot of trouble.

With Pac-Barrera II, the only wild card is, how seriously has Pacquiao taken his training? All indications are that he hasn't taken in very seriously this time around. He leads a chaotic life that is nothing if not overflowing with distractions. But I think even half of Pac will whip Barrera's butt at this stage of MAB's career. I agree that Pac-Marquez II is a fight that needs to be made, so I'm rooting for Pacquiao for that reason alone.

 

[BGrif21125]

As a history buff, I enjoyed the stuff ESPN has up about the ring at MSG, which is getting sent to the HOF.

Link
Link 2

This part left me scratching my head:

Size was another factor. The ring measured 18½-by-18½ feet inside the ropes, small by modern standards. When Oleg Maskaev's promoters inserted a clause in the contract for Maskaev's scheduled (and, ironically, subsequently postponed) Oct. 6 WBC heavyweight defense against Sam Peter, that the ring be 20 square feet inside the ropes, Fisher and colleagues reluctantly brought down the curtain on more than 80 years of loyal service.

That ring has been occupied by fighters like Robinson and Ali, and yet you let the demands of a stiff like Oleg Maskaev contribute to getting rid of it? Seems weird.

 

[ElUno20]

I'm hoping for more than a two round fight on Saturday. Manny's been full of distractions and hasn't taken the fight seriously. Any chance we see a memorable last hoorah performance from MAB? I sure hope so. The Pacman is a bully!

Boxing wise this fight is real simple. MAB needs to put his jab through pacman's face for 12 rounds to keep it from getting to that ridiculous frenetic pace. Rocky Jaurez his ass and retire off into the sunset. I know he has trained his ass off for this fight so throwing it away by electing to trade and prove his manliness would be incredibly stupid.

 

[Naehring11]

I'm hoping for more than a two round fight on Saturday. Manny's been full of distractions and hasn't taken the fight seriously. Any chance we see a memorable last hoorah performance from MAB? I sure hope so. The Pacman is a bully!

Boxing wise this fight is real simple. MAB needs to put his jab through pacman's face for 12 rounds to keep it from getting to that ridiculous frenetic pace. Rocky Jaurez his ass and retire off into the sunset. I know he has trained his ass off for this fight so throwing it away by electing to trade and prove his manliness would be incredibly stupid.

Regardless of how distracted Manny has been, i don't think MAB has a chance. Pacquiao already beat him and he is twice the fighter now, than he was at that time. Barrera has also declined quite a bit. Barrera has been boxing more recently rather than getting into brawls. Of course, that was against Rocky Juarez. I would predict a KO in 8 for Manny.

 

[Gene Conleys Plane Ticket]

Regardless of how distracted Manny has been, i don't think MAB has a chance. Pacquiao already beat him and he is twice the fighter now, than he was at that time. Barrera has also declined quite a bit. Barrera has been boxing more recently rather than getting into brawls. Of course, that was against Rocky Juarez. I would predict a KO in 8 for Manny.

KO-8 sounds about right. I'm just hoping that MAB's corner is alert enough to do what they did last time and jump in to stop this thing before MAB gets really hurt.

MAB's only chance here is if Pac really has been as unfocused coming into this fight as everyone fears he has been. When he fought Oscar Larios in Manila last year, he got caught pretty good and was in at least a little trouble early on before getting his act together and pounding Larios into submission. If Manny comes in to this fight with his mind elsewhere, maybe Barrera can catch him and rock him early, then do what the inferior fighter Larios couldn't do, which is finish him off.

I sure wouldn't bet on it, but if Barrera's going to win this fight, that's the only way I could even possibly see it happening.

UPDATE: Apparently, Pacquiao had serious trouble making the 130 pound weight yesterday and appeared "gaunt" and "ghostly" at the weigh-in. So that adds at least a little intrigue to the fight.

 

[shawnrbu]

From everything I've read, Pacquiao-Barrera II was a dud. My friend made a remark to me that Pacman must have bet on himself to win by decision the way that fight played out. Shame, but Barrera on PPV has proven to be very hit or miss. All the more reason while I'll always prefer Morales over him.

Did anybody happen to catch the Fernando Montiel fight on Versus? I've heard it was a brutal war.

 

[BigA27]

It was an OK fight. I have seen a lot worse. There were moments of excitement but all in all MAB made a decision early that he was their to survive and retire on his feet rather than like Morales who went out on his shield.

Pac pressed him and landed many good shots. MAB still has a fantastic chin and took it well. The 11th was very good round and it was clear why MAB didn't not press the fight. Manny buzzed him repeatedly and cut him deep.

This fight did not need to happen and all and all it played out that way. It was foregone conclusion with a one fighter not interested in engaging for the most part.

 

[Gene Conleys Plane Ticket]

This fight did not need to happen and all and all it played out that way. It was foregone conclusion with a one fighter not interested in engaging for the most part.

I think that's the key point. The only reason this fight existed was that Barrera is an exec with Golden Boy and this fight was pretty much GB's gift to him.

I think what sometimes happens when a fighter gets brutally stopped or knocked out, then gets a rematch, his idea of "redemption" isn't victory, but merely proving (mostly to himself) that he can stay on his feet. We saw that with Jones-Tarver III and again here. I don;t think Barrera ever thought he could beat Pacquiao. He's a smart guy and he knows perfectly well that Pac is the superior fighter at this stage of their careers. But Barrera wanted to prove to himself that he could get in there and come out with his pride intact. So that's what he did.

Everyone knows that this fight should have been Pacquiao-Marquez II. That's the one that matters, that's the one that people want to see.

I was also able to see the Samuel Peter-Jameel McCline hebayweight fight on Showtime.

[SPOILERS follow, for anyone who hasn't watched this one yet.]





Forget the bogus "interim" title at stake, this was a heavyweight battle that was a lot more exciting than it had a right to be. Not unlike Kelly Pavlik last week, Peter got up after, in this case not one but three solid knockdowns that had him reeling. But McCline couldn't finsih him and Peter showed a lot of heart in regrouping and coming back to win a fairly close but clear decision. I'm still hoping we get W. Klitschko-Peter II sometime next year. While I do think Klitschko will win again, I think it could be one of the most hard-fought and exciting heavyweight fights in quite some time -- exactly what the division needs.

 

[BGrif21125]

I didn't order the PPV, but I got a chance to watch the main event this afternoon. It wasn't a bad fight, but given the names of the two fighters involved, it certainly failed to live up to expectations.

Barrera knew his only way to win was to slow the pace, make it a thinking man's tactical fight, and hope that Pacquiao would be reckless and make mistakes.

I think that when Barrera successfully slowed the tempo in the early rounds, but was STILL losing rounds, he realized he was running out of options. At that point, he could either go for it (and likely get TKO'd), or just play defense and make it thru the 12 rounds. Barrera chose the latter.

As Gene said above, this fight wasn't made because it was the best fight out there, it was because Barrera had the biggest name, and the Golden Boy connections, so it was the easiest money maker.

There were some rumblings post-fight about Pacquiao really struggling to make weight, and that he's considering going to 135. I assume he'll stay at 130, because that's where the money is.
Obviously the Marquez rematch is the fight that needs to happen. I give Marquez a very good shot to win that fight. If Marquez somehow gets beaten by Juarez, I think the winner of the Soto-Guzman fight would also have a very strong shot at upsetting Pacquiao. (I consider Soto the most underrated fighter in the sport.)

As for Barrera, I hope he means it when he says he's retiring. Neither he nor Morales should continue fighting.

 

[BGrif21125]

This is a segment from an article by Thomas Hauser on the Taylor-Pavlik fight. Gotta love boxing commissions....

After referee Steve Smoger gave Kelly Pavlik his instructions in the dressing room prior to Taylor-Pavlik, Mauricio Sulaiman came into the room. Mauricio is the son of WBC president Jose Sulaiman. In recent years, he has assumed an increasingly active role within the sanctioning body. He is now the WBC’s executive secretary and is in charge of the organization’s executive office in Mexico City.

In the dressing room, Mauricio approached veteran cornerman Miguel Diaz and told him, “If Kelly wins, I would like his trunks to present as a gift to my father.” Diaz relayed the request to Mike Pavlik, who responded, “No way.”

After the fight, Mauricio returned to the dressing room and renewed his request.

“Oh, man,” Kelly said. “These are my trunks. Next fight, maybe; but not this one. I just won the championship in these trunks. My blood is on them.”

More people were drawn into the conversation. One-on-ones followed. Some words were exchanged regarding the discretionary powers of WBC officials and their ability to make things easy or hard on WBC champions. Mauricio Sulaiman left Boardwalk Hall with Kelly Pavlik’s bloodstained trunks. In the wee small hours of Sunday morning, he was confronted regarding the matter and the trunks were returned.

“It was a misunderstanding,” Mauricio told this writer. “I was led to believe that Kelly wanted the trunks to be presented as a gift to my father because of his respect for my father and the WBC. When it was brought to my attention that Kelly wished to have the trunks back, I arranged quickly to return them.”

Federal law states, “No officer or employee of a sanctioning organization may receive any compensation, gift, or benefit, directly or indirectly, from a boxer [other than a sanctioning fee].” Violation of this law is a crime punishable by up to one year in prison and a fine of $20,000.

When a powerful WBC official makes a request such as the one Sulaiman made of Pavlik, there’s an inherent coercive factor at work. That’s why there’s a law against it.

Craig Hamilton (the foremost boxing memorabilia dealer in the United States) estimates that Pavlik’s trunks from his championship-winning fight could be worth as much as $25,000. The WBC received a substantial sanctioning fee for Taylor-Pavlik. That should suffice for everyone’s purposes.

This isn’t the first time that Mauricio Sulaiman has made a request of this nature. One hopes it’s the last.

Link

 

[BU1995Hockey]

I watched Hagler/Leonard from '87 last night. That shit was better than the fight in Rocky I, amazing stuff. Does that rate as the best fight ever? Gimme some suggested fights to watch.

 

[eddiew112]

I watched Hagler/Leonard from '87 last night. That shit was better than the fight in Rocky I, amazing stuff. Does that rate as the best fight ever? Gimme some suggested fights to watch.

Hagler-Hearns in '85 would be a good place to start. The best nine minutes in the history of boxing. One of my personal favorites is Arguello-Mancini in '81, some other Arguello classics would be his first fight against Aaron Pryor and his fight with Ruben Olivares in '74.

Others:
-Ali-Frazier I and III
-Jose Luis Castillo-Diego Corrales I
-Ward-Gatti I
-Hearns-Leonard I
-Holmes-Norton
-Duran-Barkley

 

[BU1995Hockey]

Hagler-Hearns in '85 would be a good place to start. The best nine minutes in the history of boxing. One of my personal favorites is Arguello-Mancini in '81, some other Arguello classics would be his first fight against Aaron Pryor and his fight with Ruben Olivares in '74.

Was Hagler/Hearns THAT good? I need to see that!

 

[ElUno20]

Manny is terribly overrated. I'm glad he's done beating up old Mexican legends. I'd love to see him and Juan Diaz at 135.

I watched Hagler/Leonard from '87 last night. That shit was better than the fight in Rocky I, amazing stuff. Does that rate as the best fight ever? Gimme some suggested fights to watch.

Have you seen any of the Ali/Frazier fights? or Ali/Foreman? The Gatti/Ward triology and Corrales/Castillo I are more recent.

 

[BGrif21125]

I watched Hagler/Leonard from '87 last night. That shit was better than the fight in Rocky I, amazing stuff. Does that rate as the best fight ever? Gimme some suggested fights to watch.

Hagler-Leonard is maybe a Top 25 fight all-time. It's notable mostly because Leonard was a big underdog. Hagler-Hearns, Leonard-Hearns I, and Leonard-Duran I were all superior to Hagler-Leonard.

Watch some of the fights from the following list, these are the top fights of this decade IMO. All of these should be available on youtube in their entirety:
Morales-Barrera I (my vote for fight of the decade)
Morales-Barrera III
Morales-Pacquiao I
Pacquiao-Marquez
Toney-Jirov
Trinidad-Vargas
Gatti-Ward I
Corrales-Castillo I
Vazquez-Marquez II
Cotto-Torres
Mosley-De La Hoya I

Historically speaking, the best fights (and fighters) are almost always found between 122-160 pounds.

 

[Jeff Van GULLY]

I'm a sucker for any of the Ward-Gatti fights but the 1st one is probably the best.

Pryor-Arguello I
Durell-Moore
McClellan-Benn (great fight but an extremely sad ending)

 

[Gene Conleys Plane Ticket]

An all-time great fight that rarely gets mentioned is the first fight, in 1986, between Evander Holyfield and Dwight Muhamad Qawi. It rarely gets mentioned because it took place in the bastard stepchild division of boxing, the cruiserweights. In fact, the cruiserweight division is often called "boxing's best-kept secret," because it's usually full of talent and, because the division is so widely scorned (has HBO even aired a cruiserweight fight since Jirov-Toney?), the top fighters have to fight each other frequently to make any money at all. So the cruiserweight division often produces memorable fights that no one remembers.

Anyway, Holyfield-Qawi 1 was also one of the last great 15-round fights and it was an absolute war for the full 15. It plays on ESPN Classic from time to time. Catch it if you get a chance. I actually remember watching it live on ABC on a Saturday afternoon. Those were the days!

 

[BGrif21125]

(has HBO even aired a cruiserweight fight since Jirov-Toney)

I don't think they have. I certainly can't think of one.

Bell-Mormeck I/II are the only recent cruiserweight fights off the top of my head that I can remember on any US network, period. I think the first was on Showtime, and the second was on MSG/Comcast.

It's too bad Toney was so out of control when it came to weight. I would've loved to have seen him stay at cruiser after the Jirov fight and take on the younger crop (Bell, Mormeck, Haye, Maccarinelli). He could've been an all-time great cruiserweight if he had made a point to spend significant time there.

 

[JimBoSox9]

Was Hagler/Hearns THAT good? I need to see that!

 

[BGrif21125]

Anyone know if Ibragimov-Holyfield is being shown live on PPV, or just on tape-delay at night? I'm not ordering it either way, I'm just curious.

As I've said before, I really hope Holyfield loses. If he wins, his big name will definitely get him a shot at Wlad next year, and Wlad will seriously hurt him.

 

[Gene Conleys Plane Ticket]

Anyone know if Ibragimov-Holyfield is being shown live on PPV, or just on tape-delay at night? I'm not ordering it either way, I'm just curious.

As I've said before, I really hope Holyfield loses. If he wins, his big name will definitely get him a shot at Wlad next year, and Wlad will seriously hurt him.

I believe the broadcast is on live at 1 pm ET (9 pm Moscow time). It's repeated later Saturday evening. I probably won't buy it either. It's about as bogus a "heavyweight championship" fight as I can remember. We all know that Holyfield got this shot on his name alone. And Ibragimov, though not a bad fighter, got his championship by outpunching a Shannon Briggs who didn't throw any punches.

Apparently HBO has Feb. 23 reserved for Wlad Klitschko's next fight. I can only hope it's against Sam Peter, who is his only credible opponent at this time and that's the only fight in the heavyweight division that really matters right now. I have a bad feeling it's going to be Shannon Briggs getting the shot, though. If so, we can only hope that Klitschko puts Briggs out of everyone's misery, which I expect he will.

I don't think the IBF tournament will be anywhere near resolved by then, though if this young Russian Povetkin comes out of it, that could be very interesting. I've never seen the kid fight, but everything I read about him says he's the next big thing in the heavyweight division. The other young boxer in that tournament, Eddie Chambers (who I have seen a couple of times), is also interesting. He's about half the size of Wlad, so he's at a huge disadvantage there. But he's a very slick, cagey boxer, If he were to stick to a stick-and-move game plan, he could really frustrate Klitschko, though ultimately I don't think he could win that fight.

In other news, it now appears that HBO has Jan. 26 set aside for Kelly Pavlik's first defense of his newly-won middleweight crown, or at least his next fight. Because if the fight is his rematch with Taylor, it would probably be a non-title affair conducted at a catch weight. But I don't think that's going to happen in January. I think the opponent is more likely to be John Duddy or Sergio Mora.

Pavlik will annihiliate Duddy, but I actually think Mora presents an intriguing challenge for Pavlik. Unlike Pavlik's three opponents this year, all of whom tried to trade punches with him, Mora's awkwardness could present puzzle that could take Pavlik some time to solve.

On the "Contender" front, if Alfonso Gomez wins his ESPN fight next Tuesday against Ben Tackie, he'll get a March 29 date next year against Julio Cesar Chavez Jr. That's a great matchup of prospects -- an excellent B.A.D. fight. I only hope it ends up on B.A.D. along with the Martin Castillo-Jorge Arce fight, and not on PPV. Too many promoters are too quick to exploit boxing's Hispanic fan base with PPVs involving Mexican fighters. This March 29 card could all-too-easily slip into that category. I hope not, because it's classic B.A.D.

 

[BGrif21125]

Apparently HBO has Feb. 23 reserved for Wlad Klitschko's next fight. I can only hope it's against Sam Peter, who is his only credible opponent at this time and that's the only fight in the heavyweight division that really matters right now. I have a bad feeling it's going to be Shannon Briggs getting the shot, though. If so, we can only hope that Klitschko puts Briggs out of everyone's misery, which I expect he will.

FWIW, Dan Rafael said today that he thinks Peter-Maskaev could still take place, maybe in February on Showtime. So if that's the case, Wlad needs an opponent.

I'd have to think that the Ibragimov-Holyfield winner is going to be the main candidate. If it's Holyfield, I'm certain he'll get a shot at Wlad (and get destroyed in the process). If Ibragimov wins, he doesn't have the big name, but he will have a belt, so the promoters could sell it as a sort of unification fight.

If it's Shannon Briggs, god help us.