SOSH Running Dogs

[underhandtofirst]

QUOTE (5belongstoGeorge @ Oct 26 2009, 12:16 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=2649809
Hey Running Dogs!

I signed up to run the Carlsbad Half over the weekend. 2nd year in a row and I am pumped! I'll probably need your help.

89 days to go


Good luck. I'm tentatively planning to run the Hyannis Half Marathon on 2/28 and will be following Hal Higdon's advanced HM plan with some adjustments. Such as cutting the Monday run out and extending the tempo runs a little. He's got Novice and Intermediate plans which work ok. I kind of need a plan between the Inter and Adv ones. I estimate that the plan will start at 29 miles per week and peak at 44.

I find that HH's plans dont have a lot of middle ground. They seems to run short amounts on a lot of days. I dont have time to run every day. I'd prefer to do a little more on a couple days and have more days for total rest.

The plan is 12 weeks long which is about the right length for me. Of course this depends on being able to build a small base back up through November.

 

[5belongstoGeorge]

QUOTE (underhandtofirst @ Oct 26 2009, 09:45 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=2649842
Good luck. I'm tentatively planning to run the Hyannis Half Marathon on 2/28 and will be following Hal Higdon's advanced HM plan with some adjustments. Such as cutting the Monday run out and extending the tempo runs a little. He's got Novice and Intermediate plans which work ok. I kind of need a plan between the Inter and Adv ones. I estimate that the plan will start at 29 miles per week and peak at 44.

I find that HH's plans dont have a lot of middle ground. They seems to run short amounts on a lot of days. I dont have time to run every day. I'd prefer to do a little more on a couple days and have more days for total rest.

The plan is 12 weeks long which is about the right length for me. Of course this depends on being able to build a small base back up through November.

I am going with Hal myself and using the 12 week novice plan leading up to the race. I don't modify it much. I need the discipline of following a strict plan, both physically and mentally, in order to be successful.

Speaking of training programs, I have an interesting story of a brush with a "celebrity" that happened to me. My family and I just vacationed on the Big Island of Hawaii. By coincidence we were there when the Iron man competition was taking place. As you probably know, the Kona race is the Super Bowl of triathlons, with the very best of the best elite athletes competing.

Of course, I was out there running most every morning on my vacation (running is a joy for me). We stay right on Alii Drive, which happens to be a street that the running portion of the race follows. The week before the race there were booths with logo stuff and energy drinks and coffee set up along Alii drive for the competitors. One of the booths was just down the street from where we were staying. It advertised personal endurance training. I ran by and on the way back stopped in to ask a couple questions (like wtf are those socks for? It turns out they aid in venus blood return) and a few other personal questions.

There was a guy out there hanging around. We were talking and laughing... I told him he had a nice gig going on, drinking coffee next to the ocean. He said, "It beats Cinncinatti." A couple other people started hanging around and then a chick that was running by stopped and asked if she could have her picture taken with the guy I was talking to. It turns out the guy I was talking to was Chris Carmichael, Lance Armstrong's trainer and trainer to several of the elite ironmen!

Very nice guy.

 

[Kremlin Watcher]

Race sign-up season is almost as busy as racing season, having to figure out what races to do when and how to sign up for them. I've already booked the Timberman Half-iron distance race for late August and am getting in line to register for national championship qualifying races in June and July. Good races fill up fast. I have to go work at the Lake Placid Iron Man in 2010 as a volunteer to be able to register for that race in 2011 - the whole race is booked a year in advance. My brother-in-law is also trying to get me a spot in the Boston Marathon. I must be nuts to try it, but if he can get me in and my hip gets better, I think I'll go for it.

Had a good session with the physical therapist today. Got some new stretches and a few exercises to calm the hip down, stretch out the capsule and begin to strengthen the bits that support the hip joint. It's a complicated joint with a lot of musculature running through it. Fingers crossed that the PT works. I'm also going to start some swimming and biking again to keep up the fitness levels until I can start running again.

 

[Traut]

I'm 90% sure that I'm going to do the Suntrust National Half Marathon in March and 100% sure that I'm going to do the Vermont City Marathon on Memorial Day.

 

[Kremlin Watcher]

QUOTE (5belongstoGeorge @ Oct 26 2009, 01:31 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=2649899
My family and I just vacationed on the Big Island of Hawaii. By coincidence we were there when the Iron man competition was taking place. As you probably know, the Kona race is the Super Bowl of triathlons, with the very best of the best elite athletes competing.

That is a cool story.

Before I die I am going to do the Kona Ironman.

 

[5belongstoGeorge]

QUOTE (Kremlin Watcher @ Oct 26 2009, 10:52 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=2649951
That is a cool story.

Before I die I am going to do the Kona Ironman.


It was a trip. There were all these Euro guys wearing speedos with 32 inch thighs and 1% body fat snorkeling just down the street from our house. One of the local coffee shops in Kona Town never had less than ten $3000+ bikes parked out front.

 

[pedro1918]

QUOTE (underhandtofirst @ Oct 26 2009, 11:22 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=2649743
Nice work. I've heard it is quite a race to be in and the last mile or so up the hill is pretty intense beyond just the running.

Do you think you'll try another marathon, or was this just a once in a lifetime run? How did the race compare to your training. By that I mean were you expecting to run about that time?


Thanks folks. I am in some pain this morning, but not as much as I thought. The 15-20 minutes after the race were quite interesting, as my legs buckled on every step. I also had the intense feeling of almost vomiting, but never quite did.

The the race ends with a mild uphill that turns into a steep uphill and it was quite a challenge. The fact that you can hear (and then see) the finish line activities keeps you going.

I am very pleased with my time. I was hoping to finish in the 4 hour range. The adage that the 20 mile marker is the half way point was very true for me. I was feeling great until about the 19.5 marker when I started experiencing pain in my right hip. It got worse from there. I felt like I was going much slower from 21 miles on, but my split times show that I was remarkably consistent, 8:30 - 9:15 per mile. I felt I was at my strongest from about 11 to 19.

The fact that I have not ruled out doing another marathon makes me think I will run another. I do think that I am better suited for a half or a 10-miler, but I also enjoy the challenge.

 

[5belongstoGeorge]

Carlsbad Half SOLD OUT today for a Jan 24 start! Only 8000 allowed... amazing!

I had/have some knee blunt force trauma to overcome from this spring, but I really feel like I am back to at least 90% and getting better. As long as I don't kneel down it is all good.

My goal for the race is to finish 20 minutes faster than last year. I know there were 10 minutes of slop in last year's race, so I only need to gain 10 minutes. Time to find some hills...

 

[Traut]

Just registered for the Providence Half Marathon on May 2nd. Looks like a nice race. Entry fee is only $35. Fits perfectly into marathon training for Burlington.

 

[BleacherFan]

Awesome job guys,

My hammy/hip is really bothering me - it's just not getting better and I don't know if it's a) very very tight b) very weak c) a&b d) something else (scar tissue???)

I've decided to start lifting twice a week at the gym - i will be doing the following exercises: one legged squats w/ smith, lunges w/ dumbbells, leg curls (one leg on the return) and the leg press. The last time I lifted was close to two years ago and it's amazing how weak I've become. I used to do one legged squats with a 45lb and a 25lb on each side - now I was struggling with 1 25lb plate...

I've also started stretching my hammies nightly between 15-20 minutes. Between this and only doing running on hills (lower impact) hopefully will get me in the right direction.

Good luck in all those with upcoming races.

 

[Frisbetarian]

I've been lurking and reading here all summer. I give my congratulations to the racers, the PR's, and especially the new guys, and I have the utmost sympathy for the injured. My workouts are still strictly trail running with the mutt, and I'm probably averaging about 50 miles a week these days - it's been a good summer. I still don't quantify distance or time, but have been running some with guys training for races and feel pretty good about where I am.

Anyway, I came in to offer a few suggestions. First, don't neglect resistance exercises (weights), including upper body stuff. I always felt lifting free weights with lower weight and higher reps while training for distance helped me maintain muscle, decreased my chance of injury, and made my runs stronger. Just my .02.

The other thing I want to mention comes from a great book Rough Carrigan suggested I read earlier this summer, Born to Run. I don't think it's been discussed in this forum before, and I apologize if it has, but this is a very cool story about the Tahahumara Indians in Mexico, a tribe of incredible runners living deep in the Copper Canyons. One of the things the author, Christopher McDougall, talks about in the book is running shoes, and how they really do not protect against injury and may even cause them. McDougall sites doctors, studies, and more tellingly the Stanford track team of coach Joe Lananna who had his athletes do part of their workouts barefoot on the track saying, "I believe when my runners train barefoot, they run faster and suffer fewer injuries." His Stanford team won 5 NCAA team championships and 22 individual championships in 10 years. The miler, Alan Webb, was another example. He had early injury problems and trained barefoot, claiming that that method caused incredible transformations, "I was a size 12 and flat footed, now I'm a 9 or 10. As the muscles in my feet got stronger, my arch got higher."

After I finished this book my son and wife both read it and were similarly impressed. One of the alternatives to barefoot for trail runners was a weird boat shoe type thing called a Vibram 5 Finger that gave some protection to the sole. My kid bought me a pair for my birthday, and I've run in them a few times now, and they really do feel like running barefoot. I noticed immediately how hard I landed, and I run soft compared to most, but had to change my stride - shorten it a bit. I never had the problems some people mention when running barefoot or in the 5 Fingers with hard heel landings, as I've always run more mid to front foot. Therefore. I was fine running 4, then 6, my first two days out in these strange looking things when, as I found out later, it was suggested you start with 1/4 mile jogs. Heh. I'll continue to run in them once in a while until it gets too cold, but I've had no real running injuries for almost two decades and wonder if my stride is already like a barefoot runner after all these years of practice - I've been running for 30 years now, well over 50,000 miles. It could be nada, but if you're having injury issues it may not hurt to look into occasional barefoot training and/or those weird looking 5 Finger things. At any rate, I would strongly suggest you read Born to Run. The theory of evolution in the book is worth the cost of the book alone.

Keep running, pendejos, you never know what may be gaining on you.

 

[Traut]

"Born To Run" is next on my list. Presently reading Chi Running. It's boring.

This thread starts off with a discussion of the Manchester Road Race. Any of you turkeys lining up this year? 11,000 runners and 20,000 spectators.

 

[idontlikecricketiloveit]

this is a great thread. my first time posting in it.

i'll be running a different thanksgiving day race, the somerville road runners gobble gobble gobble in davis square. 4 miles on a fairly flat course, hopefully the weather will cooperate.

barefoot running seems to be hot lately. aside from born to run (or maybe because of it) there have been a couple of articles lately in the NYT about the Vibram and barefoot running in general. i remember running a 5k three years ago where one of the contestants ran barefoot and he was wearing a tshirt promoting a website www.barefootrunning.org. it doesn't seem to be around anymore but at the time when i visited it the stuff it talked about now sounds similar to some of the points in born to run (haven't read it yet, but have read other people's reviews of it) - that all the cushioning in most running shoes is actually harmful as they isolate muscles that are needed to send key signals to the mind about impact on the foot and therefore corrections in stride and landing spot that a barefoot runner would ordinarily make aren't made, which leads to injuries, bad running posture etc.

i'm not quite ready to completely ditch the running shoe. though one alternative that is mentioned is running in racing flats. do people here have any experience with running/training in flats? how often do these need to be replaced?

 

[pedro1918]

Four days after my marathon and I feel pretty close to 100%. I signed up for a Thanksgiving Turkey Chase, so I'm going to start running again this afternoon.

Short and slowly.

 

[underhandtofirst]

QUOTE (pedro1918 @ Oct 29 2009, 07:56 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=2655069
Four days after my marathon and I feel pretty close to 100%. I signed up for a Thanksgiving Turkey Chase, so I'm going to start running again this afternoon.

Short and slowly.


Take it very easy. After my first I felt so great to get back out there I overdid it a little and it set me back a few days. Let your body heal itself. Some nice easy short runs will be helpful. There are a lot of post-marathon plans out there that bring you back to race ready in 5 weeks. If you had a large base before or didnt really go all out in the marathon then you might be able to ramp it up sooner.

 

[underhandtofirst]

QUOTE (idontlikecricketiloveit @ Oct 29 2009, 01:39 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=2654999
this is a great thread. my first time posting in it.

i'll be running a different thanksgiving day race, the somerville road runners gobble gobble gobble in davis square. 4 miles on a fairly flat course, hopefully the weather will cooperate.

barefoot running seems to be hot lately. aside from born to run (or maybe because of it) there have been a couple of articles lately in the NYT about the Vibram and barefoot running in general. i remember running a 5k three years ago where one of the contestants ran barefoot and he was wearing a tshirt promoting a website www.barefootrunning.org. it doesn't seem to be around anymore but at the time when i visited it the stuff it talked about now sounds similar to some of the points in born to run (haven't read it yet, but have read other people's reviews of it) - that all the cushioning in most running shoes is actually harmful as they isolate muscles that are needed to send key signals to the mind about impact on the foot and therefore corrections in stride and landing spot that a barefoot runner would ordinarily make aren't made, which leads to injuries, bad running posture etc.

i'm not quite ready to completely ditch the running shoe. though one alternative that is mentioned is running in racing flats. do people here have any experience with running/training in flats? how often do these need to be replaced?


The theory behind barefoot running makes sense, but in reality it just seems like you'd be asking for trouble. I could maybe see how it might work on a track which has a consistent surface (usually). On the roads, especially in the NE, there are too many cracks and stuff on the roads that would cause problems.

It would feel like you were flying though. And I've read that every ounce in the shoe adds 1-2 seconds per mile. So even compared to flats you're gaining a lot of speed.

 

[pedro1918]

QUOTE (underhandtofirst @ Oct 29 2009, 03:14 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=2655625
Take it very easy. After my first I felt so great to get back out there I overdid it a little and it set me back a few days. Let your body heal itself. Some nice easy short runs will be helpful. There are a lot of post-marathon plans out there that bring you back to race ready in 5 weeks. If you had a large base before or didnt really go all out in the marathon then you might be able to ramp it up sooner.


I did 3 miles in about 45 minutes.

Short and slowly.

 

[Kremlin Watcher]

QUOTE (Frisbetarian @ Oct 27 2009, 07:21 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=2651692
... Born to Run ...

Fris - you're prescient. Or clairvoyant, or something like that.

I started running in Vibram Five Fingers this summer after I read an article that mentions (albeit in less detail) all of the stuff you talk about. It all seemed totally credible to me, and I have always had hip and knee problems, and I always thought the solution was shoes with more support and more cushioning. Now I see that all that cushioning was simply encouraging me to run in a manner that encouraged bad form - heel strike running that puts tons of pressure straight up the knees and hips and into the lower back. So I got a pair of Vibram Five Fingers I am now totally hooked on barefoot. I exercise, run, walk around the house, go to parties - all in my bare feet or Vibram Five Fingers. And (prior to my currently rehabbing hip injury) damned if barefoot exercising and running didn't make a huge difference. I am a total convert to mid-foot (or Chi, I guess) running, and am working on my barefoot mechanics this winter to see if I can race next season either in bare feet or my Vibram Five Fingers. There are so many benefits to barefoot, and there is so little evidence to suggest that highly padded and artificially stabilized running shoes do ANYTHING to make us run better, faster, or safer, that I am mildly surprised that barefoot hasn't caught on yet.

I'd be interested to hear how you get on with barefoot if you choose to keep going. I know I'm going to try.

 

[ManhattanRedSox]

Can anyone recommend a good website with shoe reviews? 6'3", 235lbs here and looking for some new kicks. Most of my running is on treadmills, although I do try to get outside (paved road) a bit now and again.


Thank you

Oh, and I am running about 20 miles/week at the moment.

Sorry, one last edit: I'm flat footed and over pronate.

 

[Traut]

QUOTE (ManhattanRedSox @ Oct 30 2009, 07:57 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=2657962
Can anyone recommend a good website with shoe reviews? 6'3", 235lbs here and looking for some new kicks. Most of my running is on treadmills, although I do try to get outside (paved road) a bit now and again.


Thank you

Oh, and I am running about 20 miles/week at the moment.

Sorry, one last edit: I'm flat footed and over pronate.

Both Runners World and Road Runner sports have excellent shoe reviews. Though I never buy online. Check out a running store. Their staff (usually comprised of runners) will point you in the right direction. Plus, they'll usually have a treadmill and video resources for you to test the shoes.

I have very flat feet and over pronate. After trying on a bunch of shoes I selected the New Balance 850s. I've put 200 miles on them and I've loved them from the start. I also use an arch support made for running. They fit the supports right in the store. I love the shoes and will order another pair for marathon training this Christmas before they release the new models.

The shoe is light and very stable.

 

[ManhattanRedSox]

QUOTE (Trautwein's Degree @ Oct 30 2009, 08:46 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=2657990
Both Runners World and Road Runner sports have excellent shoe reviews. Though I never buy online. Check out a running store. Their staff (usually comprised of runners) will point you in the right direction. Plus, they'll usually have a treadmill and video resources for you to test the shoes.

I have very flat feet and over pronate. After trying on a bunch of shoes I selected the New Balance 850s. I've put 200 miles on them and I've loved them from the start. I also use an arch support made for running. They fit the supports right in the store. I love the shoes and will order another pair for marathon training this Christmas before they release the new models.

The shoe is light and very stable.



Thank you! Has anyone tried Newton Running Shoes? They seem really pricey, but, if they are worth it.... My biggest complaint about stability shoes is how heavy they are. These are purported to be lighter. Anyone have them?

 

[Marceline]

QUOTE (Kremlin Watcher @ Oct 30 2009, 01:05 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=2657878
Fris - you're prescient. Or clairvoyant, or something like that.

I started running in Vibram Five Fingers this summer after I read an article that mentions (albeit in less detail) all of the stuff you talk about. It all seemed totally credible to me, and I have always had hip and knee problems, and I always thought the solution was shoes with more support and more cushioning. Now I see that all that cushioning was simply encouraging me to run in a manner that encouraged bad form - heel strike running that puts tons of pressure straight up the knees and hips and into the lower back. So I got a pair of Vibram Five Fingers I am now totally hooked on barefoot. I exercise, run, walk around the house, go to parties - all in my bare feet or Vibram Five Fingers. And (prior to my currently rehabbing hip injury) damned if barefoot exercising and running didn't make a huge difference. I am a total convert to mid-foot (or Chi, I guess) running, and am working on my barefoot mechanics this winter to see if I can race next season either in bare feet or my Vibram Five Fingers. There are so many benefits to barefoot, and there is so little evidence to suggest that highly padded and artificially stabilized running shoes do ANYTHING to make us run better, faster, or safer, that I am mildly surprised that barefoot hasn't caught on yet.

I'd be interested to hear how you get on with barefoot if you choose to keep going. I know I'm going to try.


I just got a pair of the VFF's also, and will be trying them out this weekend.

I did go from running in a heavily cushioned/motion control shoe (Brooks Beast) to running exclusively in one of their racing shoes (Racer ST 4) a few months back and I think it was a big improvement.

Are you really going to parties wearing the vibram five fingers?

 

[Kremlin Watcher]

QUOTE (Joe Sixpack @ Oct 30 2009, 10:30 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=2658098
Are you really going to parties wearing the vibram five fingers?

One of the best conversation starters I've ever brought to a social gathering. Everyone wants to know about them.

 

[5belongstoGeorge]

The Vibram 5 Fingers thing is new to me. I just went to their website and it answered many questions, but I need to know more! A few questions:

Do you wear them when you run outside? On trails? On asphalt? On cement?
Would you wear them during a race?
How does their weight compare with decent running shoes?
When you train can you switch back and forth between conventional running shoes and the VFF?
How long does it take you to get used to the different footwear?
You wear them all the time? how does it feel when you wear regular shoes?

I have about 100 miles (3 weeks) left on my present shoes and about 12 weeks of training left before my race. If I switched now, or soon, how will it effect my performance?

My feet are in very good shape and my stride is, at least from what I have read about the mechanics of strides, relatively technically correct. I do have Morton's toe. What benefits should I expect.

I live in SoCal and am either barefoot or wearing reefs whenever I am not at work. When I travel to cold places I only run on treadmills. These would work for me.

TELL ME MORE. Please?

Oh yeah, do you wear socks in them?

 

[5belongstoGeorge]

I found a store that sells them 3 miles from my work. I am going there for lunch.

 

[Frisbetarian]

QUOTE (Kremlin Watcher @ Oct 30 2009, 01:05 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=2657878
Fris - you're prescient. Or clairvoyant, or something like that.

I started running in Vibram Five Fingers this summer after I read an article that mentions (albeit in less detail) all of the stuff you talk about. It all seemed totally credible to me, and I have always had hip and knee problems, and I always thought the solution was shoes with more support and more cushioning. Now I see that all that cushioning was simply encouraging me to run in a manner that encouraged bad form - heel strike running that puts tons of pressure straight up the knees and hips and into the lower back. So I got a pair of Vibram Five Fingers I am now totally hooked on barefoot. I exercise, run, walk around the house, go to parties - all in my bare feet or Vibram Five Fingers. And (prior to my currently rehabbing hip injury) damned if barefoot exercising and running didn't make a huge difference. I am a total convert to mid-foot (or Chi, I guess) running, and am working on my barefoot mechanics this winter to see if I can race next season either in bare feet or my Vibram Five Fingers. There are so many benefits to barefoot, and there is so little evidence to suggest that highly padded and artificially stabilized running shoes do ANYTHING to make us run better, faster, or safer, that I am mildly surprised that barefoot hasn't caught on yet.

I'd be interested to hear how you get on with barefoot if you choose to keep going. I know I'm going to try.



I don't think I'll ever be able to go barefoot because I'm always running off road with Will's mutt and there are too many sharp rocks to even consider it. Even with the Vibrams I sometimes hit something that really hurts and forces me to watch the trail more closely. If I decide to run a more technical trail, I am forced to wear running shoes (trail shoes) as the Vibrams would not offer nearly enough protection for the soles of my feet, and would, in all probability, get ruined. One huge benefit I've noticed with the Vibrams is that I no longer have to be afraid of twisting an ankle when I run. The sole of running shoes is like a platform and if you hit a rock, curb, etc., the wrong way your ankle will go over. And it sucks. With the 5 Fingers, or barefoot, this is no longer an issue, which allows me to run more freely and faster, especially downhill on rock terrain.

An aside, the mutt is doing well over 100 miles a week chasing me and Will when we run and/or mountain bike in the woods. Awesome dog.

 

[Kremlin Watcher]

A few answers:

Do you wear them when you run outside? On trails? On asphalt? On cement? Yes, yes, yes and yes. I wear them everywhere. I am wearing them right now.

Would you wear them during a race? Yes, I will wear them racing. Did a 5-miler last month with them.

How does their weight compare with decent running shoes? Noticeably lighter. They weigh almost nothing.

When you train can you switch back and forth between conventional running shoes and the VFF? Yes, this is a good idea as it varies the kind of work load you put on the various muscle groups. In VFFs your calves work a lot more, as there is no heel height to boost the calf up. So you are lifting/pushing yourself another 1-2" up just by getting rid of the huge heels of conventional running shoes.

How long does it take you to get used to the different footwear? A week or so. They feel weird at first, but you get used to them.

You wear them all the time? how does it feel when you wear regular shoes? Yup, I wear them all the time, but am not uncomfortable in regular shoes when I need to wear them.

I have about 100 miles (3 weeks) left on my present shoes and about 12 weeks of training left before my race. If I switched now, or soon, how will it effect my performance? It will affect you a lot. The single most important thing I have found with these shoes is that they truly simulate being barefoot, so your running mechanics have to change. YOU CANNOT RUN WITH A HEEL-STRIKE GAIT WITH THESE OR YOU WILL INJURE YOUR KNEES AND HIPS. The whole point of these shoes is that they provide no support at all, only protection against surfaces. They are made to encourage or even force you to run with a gait that has you landing on your mid-sole with bent knees rather than landing on your heel and rolling across your foot. The view is that heavily padded running shoes make it easy to run with a heel-strike gait, and that landing on your heel is a major cause of running injuries as it sends too much energy directly to the ankles, knees, hips and back. A mid-sole strike gait, on the other hand, has you landing on your forward stride on your mid-sole with bent knees, which is a softer landing, and distributes the shock of the landing across the foot better and with less energy directly going to the ankles, knees, hips and back. It also works your foot muscles very hard, which makes your feet really sore at first but then makes them stronger. If you think about it, heavily padded shoes obviate the need for your foot muscles to do any work to stabilize your body - that's the shoes' job. So the muscles in your feet get pretty weak despite the fact that you run a lot. Running in VFFs makes you use your foot muscles to maintain balance, and this takes some time to get used to. Your calves also work harder due to the lack of a high heel, which means your calves have to lift you up 1-2" more than with regular shoes. So if you run with a heel-strike gait and have never run barefoot, then you should take time to transition to VFFs. But I have found that I can run faster and more efficiently with a mid-sole landing, and it is a much more comfortable way to run. Think about it - that's the way we ran when we were evolving in Africa and had to spend 8-10 hours a day running after a gazelle to feed the tribe. You just have to un-learn how Nike and Adidas taught us to run in the past 30 years on our heels and re-learn how to run like our ancestors evolved running.

Oh yeah, do you wear socks in them? I don't wear socks, but Vibram does make socks for VFFs (it's on the web site). The only thing about the socks is that the VFFs themselves need to be really snug on your foot to give you the real barefoot feel. I suspect that if you wanted to wear the special toe socks you'd need to get the VFFs one size (1 cm) larger.

As for the benefits, I think they are probably slightly different for every individual given the differences in anatomy, but for me they have strengthened my calves and feet significantly (this has huge benefits for cycling), improved my balance, lessened the pain in my knees and hips (except for the torn labrum, which is unrelated) and made me a more efficient runner.

Try them - buy a pair, make sure they are snug, and do a mile or two at a moderate pace on a track or even, flat surface. Focus on the mid-sole landing gait. You'll have pretty sore calves and feet in a couple days, but work your way up slowly. I love them and am hooked on using them. But don't buy them on the web - you really need to try on a pair and find which style is most comfortable.

If these don't ultimately work out for you, you could try a pair of Newton running shoes, which are more standard running shoes but with some features that encourage the mid-sole strike gait. I'm getting a pair of these as well next time I'm in Boston, and I will use them as another training tool.

It will be interesting to hear how your experience with barefoot goes.

 

[Frisbetarian]

QUOTE (5belongstoGeorge @ Oct 30 2009, 12:31 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=2658253
The Vibram 5 Fingers thing is new to me. I just went to their website and it answered many questions, but I need to know more! A few questions:

Do you wear them when you run outside? On trails? On asphalt? On cement?
Would you wear them during a race?
How does their weight compare with decent running shoes?
When you train can you switch back and forth between conventional running shoes and the VFF?
How long does it take you to get used to the different footwear?
You wear them all the time? how does it feel when you wear regular shoes?

I have about 100 miles (3 weeks) left on my present shoes and about 12 weeks of training left before my race. If I switched now, or soon, how will it effect my performance?

My feet are in very good shape and my stride is, at least from what I have read about the mechanics of strides, relatively technically correct. I do have Morton's toe. What benefits should I expect.

I live in SoCal and am either barefoot or wearing reefs whenever I am not at work. When I travel to cold places I only run on treadmills. These would work for me.

TELL ME MORE. Please?

Oh yeah, do you wear socks in them?



I run trails with Vibrams and they're fine, and would think street running would be a lot easier, and also think barefoot street running may be possible after getting used to these rather strange looking things (and toughening up your feet and of course watching where you step). I quit racing over a decade ago and no longer quantify anything so no comment, although I think they would be fine to race in once you are used to them. The Vibrams weigh just over 5 ounces each. I switch back and forth all the time between regular running shoes, trail running shoes, and Vibrams with no problems. It took me no time to get used to them, as I said in my initial post I was running 6 miles in them two days after I got them with no real effects. I don't wear them all the time, but I would imagine they generate some conversation at parties. I think you will learn to land a lot lighter, and maybe more toward the mid/front of your foot. If the stuff I read in Born to Run, which I cannot recommend enough, is true, you will also reduce your chances of injury significantly.

There's a good chance you will be really sore after the first few times you run in Vibrams, especially if you are currently a heel strike type runner. It may put your training back a bit, but 12 weeks is plenty of time to get ready for a 1/2 marathon, so I'd say give them a try and see how it goes. I don't think these things are a quick fix road to miraculous injury free fast running times, and they may be nothing more than the fad of the week. But the theory behind barefoot running makes sense to me, and these do seem to mimic barefoot pretty well while still providing some protection for the bottom of the foot. I posted about them (and barefoot) here because so many SoSH runners were having injury issues and I wanted them to be able read and research about possible solutions.

Off topic, but the kid bought a 60's road worn Tele a few months back and hasn't played his Les Paul since.

edit: That commie bastard beat me!

 

[5belongstoGeorge]

Thanks for all the info! I'll let you know how things work out.

This makes so much sense to me intuitively. Lately I have been doing a lot of learning about "proper stride". I also try to understand what works best for me when I am running at my best, really in the grove and cruising. They say the Kenyans lift their knees like sprinters... I'm not going to be passing many Kenyans any time soon, regardless of my stride. When I am moving at my most fluid I am sort of a shuffler with a very gentle foot strike, at least as gentle as my Clydesdale fat ass will allow.

Thanks to all that contribute to this thread.

 

[5belongstoGeorge]

Fris, If you recommend a book then I am probably going to read it at the first mention.

My injury this past spring was from getting whacked in the knee, not from running. I have been fortunate enough to avoid any major running injuries.

For some reason I have always been very aware of my stride. I think it is because when I started running again I was really fat, and I was concerned about the pounding that carrying all that extra weight caused. I was also very particular about the surfaces I ran on and going downhill for the same reason. Now that I have shed most of that extra blubber (sadly, not all of it) those cautious habits remain.

QUOTE
Off topic, but the kid bought a 60's road worn Tele a few months back and hasn't played his Les Paul since.

I got ahold of an f body Ibanez with a couple of humbuckers about 3 months ago and I've only touched my Strat about 10 times since... the Strat's maple neck is quicker, but those humbuckers are just soooooooo buttery!

 

[Marceline]

QUOTE (Kremlin Watcher @ Oct 30 2009, 03:01 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=2658453
A few answers:

Do you wear them when you run outside? On trails? On asphalt? On cement? Yes, yes, yes and yes. I wear them everywhere. I am wearing them right now.


Do you find that odor is an issue since you're not wearing socks with these things? Do you wash them? That is probably my main concern at this point with wearing them regularly.

I just got back from my first run with them, went 5 miles and felt great. These things are really comfortable.

 

[Kremlin Watcher]

QUOTE (Joe Sixpack @ Oct 30 2009, 05:00 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=2658643
Do you find that odor is an issue since you're not wearing socks with these things? Do you wash them? That is probably my main concern at this point with wearing them regularly.

I just got back from my first run with them, went 5 miles and felt great. These things are really comfortable.

Well done. It takes a while to get comfortable running in them, but once you do, you get hooked.

But yes, they get very, very stinky. Scare-the-dog stinky. I wash them 2-3 times a week in the machine. But don't put them in the dryer.

 

[5belongstoGeorge]

Bought a pair 42W

 

[Frisbetarian]

QUOTE (Kremlin Watcher @ Oct 30 2009, 05:34 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=2658685
Well done. It takes a while to get comfortable running in them, but once you do, you get hooked.

But yes, they get very, very stinky. Scare-the-dog stinky. I wash them 2-3 times a week in the machine. But don't put them in the dryer.


Mine don't smell at all.

Well, not worse than my mountain bike gloves do in August.

 

[5belongstoGeorge]

Wearing them as I type this. Getting ready for my strength cross training session. They feel comfortable enough. The only weird spot is my pinky toes are kind of curved in toward the 4th toe and that feels a little "tight". I am sure that will work itself out.

The only other problem so far is my wife refused to go to Costco with me unless I wore conventional shoes... sometimes she doesn't understand me.

 

[Kremlin Watcher]

QUOTE (5belongstoGeorge @ Oct 30 2009, 07:14 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=2658762
Wearing them as I type this. Getting ready for my strength cross training session. They feel comfortable enough. The only weird spot is my pinky toes are kind of curved in toward the 4th toe and that feels a little "tight". I am sure that will work itself out.

The only other problem so far is my wife refused to go to Costco with me unless I wore conventional shoes... sometimes she doesn't understand me.

It took me a while to learn how to put them on - I find it works well if I grab the edge of the fabric above the toes and scrunch the toes into the compartments while pulling back on the edge of the fabric.

My whole family laughed the first few times I wore them, but now my mom, dad and brother have them and are no longer embarrassed by my wearing them publicly.

 

[5belongstoGeorge]

Another question:
How long will they last? 300 miles? More than that?

I'm a mid foot strike kind of guy... even though today was upper body cross train I did a little 15 minute test drive and the fivefingers were perfect for me!

The link is non-committal at best. Any links that explore footstrike that you experts (yes, you are experts!) recommend?
It is all about the footstrike...

Any thoughts on the Pose Method?

 

[Marceline]

QUOTE (5belongstoGeorge @ Oct 30 2009, 08:39 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=2658819
Another question:
How long will they last? 300 miles? More than that?


For this guy, at least 900 miles, though it looks like he could use a new pair:
http://redrocksbluesky.com/2009/10/12/900-...e-fingers-ksos/

 

[Kremlin Watcher]

The heel-strike versus mid-foot-strike debate is fascinating. Most interesting is the lack of any real scientific studies - you would've thought that with all the popularity, money and high stakes involved in competitive running that someone would have done an actual scientific study on the efficacy and safety of running mechanics. I for one have switched to mid-foot running because I find it puts less pressure on my ankles, knees, hips and back. But my brother-in-law is a pure heel-strike runner and has done 19 consecutive Boston Marathons and does iron distance triathlons, and has never had a major injury related to running. For me the debate is about comfort and efficiency; I'll be a better runner with a mid-foot strike, but that's probably not the case with everyone.

I'd be interested to know who among the Running Dogs runs with what style gait.

 

[5belongstoGeorge]

QUOTE (Joe Sixpack @ Oct 31 2009, 12:25 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=2659035
For this guy, at least 900 miles, though it looks like he could use a new pair:
http://redrocksbluesky.com/2009/10/12/900-...e-fingers-ksos/

Thanks!
I have found several www references to people running 500-1000 miles in their fivefingers since I asked.

The more I look into barefoot running techniques the more I realize that those techniques are exactly what I did when I ran at my most fluid, effortless pace - even when I was wearing shoes! In the past I resisted "shuffling along", as I called the non-heel strike landing in my head, because I foolishly thought:
1) the less effort required was being lazy - I was not working hard enough to "get the most" out of my run.
2) lengthening my stride, with the accompanying heel strike type of stride, would increase my speed

Who knew I could increase the cadence and lean forward more (from the ankles) and my speed would increase without lengthening my stride!?!?!?

Anyway, I run for a number of reasons... to stay fit and realize the pervasive improvement in quality of life that fitness brings, so I can eat like a pig, and I like being outdoors. But when it comes down to it I run because it brings me joy while I am out there on the trail. Here's a quote from Chris MacDougall:
"I see it differently than I would've a few years ago. If I could do a 3:59:59, instead of a four-hour, marathon, that was better. Now I couldn't give a shit about that 1sec. Better to me means I don't ever get hurt, I enjoy it, and I never dread it."

 

[Marceline]

QUOTE (Kremlin Watcher @ Oct 30 2009, 07:22 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=2658772
It took me a while to learn how to put them on - I find it works well if I grab the edge of the fabric above the toes and scrunch the toes into the compartments while pulling back on the edge of the fabric.

My whole family laughed the first few times I wore them, but now my mom, dad and brother have them and are no longer embarrassed by my wearing them publicly.


I started wearing them out and I've been getting some great reactions. And these things are way more comfortable than wearing shoes. Big fan so far.

I'm about 36 hours after my initial 5 mile run in them and my calves are very sore. I was hoping to do another run of 5-6 miles this morning but I might have to shorten that up a bit.

 

[rbeaud]

Today, I entered a local 5k and sure enough, in recognition of the recent discussions, there was a barefoot runner. I guess in NE, besides rocks and glass, you would also have to watch for leave pile-up on the roadside. Think I'll stick with my racing flats. They seem light enough at 7 oz-ish and there are a few lighter if I need; definitely a barefoot weenie whenever the situation demands (beach, etc). I do wonder if I shouldn't move to a lighter trainer though and make my feet work a little more than they do now. I may try a longer run than usual in the racing flats just to feel the difference.

I feel quite fortunate having read many of the recent posts. No injuries so far, even though I only stretch before races. And my weight is reasonable (thanks to all this running) so I tend not to be achey after running. The only thing keeping me from making more strides is scheduling my runs around work and family. Considering I am not a pro, I can live with that limitation.

Ok race today, 18:16 (3:33; 3:33; 3:39; 3:43; 3:48). I've not kept up with my training and this was a tough race with mile 3 being very labored. Even with that, I forced myself to spring the last 150m and pass the runner that spent all of mile 3 gaining on me. I'm surprised by how few runners surge to the finish; could be the best piece of advice from this group! Though, the wife wondered if I was going to croak from the noises I made approaching the finish.

I hope all your various rehab programs bear fruit soon...

Cheers,

Roland

 

[5belongstoGeorge]

So, today's run was scheduled to be 7 miles @ an 11:00 minute pace. I ran the first 3 miles in my fivefingers and the last 4 in my regular Asics.

The fivefinger miles were awesome. I just focused on "leaning forward with my hips" (as nebulous as that sounds, it is really a natural and easily attainable component of the stride I was attempting), keeping my feet under me with knees slightly bent, and and lifting my foot with a loose ankle rather than pushing off. That is it, and it was fantastic! I absolutely wanted to finish the run in the fivefingers, but after reading numerous sources stating I should work up slowly I switched to shoes at 3 miles.

When I started with the shoes I tried to maintain the same form as before, and it felt as if I had huge memory foam pillows duct taped to my feet. The shoes sucked!

Barefoot, or in my case minimalist running, is a revelation!

update:
NO soreness this morning!

 

[Kremlin Watcher]

QUOTE (5belongstoGeorge @ Nov 1 2009, 10:20 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=2662722
NO soreness this morning!

This is good. The injury potential to the calves, achilles and ankles is high if you go too hard too early. Keep it up. My next barefoot run isn't until December at the earliest, but I'm still working out and PT'ing in them in anticipation.

 

[5belongstoGeorge]

Today is a strength and stretching day, of course I wore the fivefingers. One of the stretches I do specifically targets the soleus muscles in the calf... they weren't terribly sore, but more tender than usual.

Tuesday is an easy 3 miles... I am really looking forward to practicing my "barefoot stride".

 

[Kremlin Watcher]

Got my confirmation this morning that I am signed up for Boston. April 19 seems like a long way away, but I know it isn't. Wonder if I'll have the courage to try it barefoot. I guess I have a lot of work to do, so I think I'll go to the gym now.

 

[underhandtofirst]

QUOTE (Kremlin Watcher @ Nov 3 2009, 10:01 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=2666070
Got my confirmation this morning that I am signed up for Boston. April 19 seems like a long way away, but I know it isn't. Wonder if I'll have the courage to try it barefoot. I guess I have a lot of work to do, so I think I'll go to the gym now.


Congrats. Are you running with a particular group?

The start would be interesting if you try it barefoot.

 

[Kremlin Watcher]

QUOTE (underhandtofirst @ Nov 3 2009, 11:16 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=2666157
Congrats. Are you running with a particular group?

The start would be interesting if you try it barefoot.

Got in via DFMC. Have to raise a pile of money. But they offer a lot of support and it's a good cause, so I should be able to make it.

A barefoot marathon. Hmm. The whole damn thing would be interesting if I could swing it.

 

[underhandtofirst]

QUOTE (Kremlin Watcher @ Nov 3 2009, 01:08 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=2666347
Got in via DFMC. Have to raise a pile of money. But they offer a lot of support and it's a good cause, so I should be able to make it.

A barefoot marathon. Hmm. The whole damn thing would be interesting if I could swing it.


Good luck raising money and training.

Is there any documentation about people running a marathon barefoot? Maybe the company would help sponsor your marathon run as a promotion for the shoes! That would go a long way towards reaching your fundraising goal and even draw more attention to a great cause.

 

[5belongstoGeorge]

I have read a number of accounts of people running barefoot marathons in my recent research. It is not unheard of.

Good luck, whichever way you run, Kremlin Watcher!

Even in my short experience with minimalist running, it is not that pleasant reverting back to shoes.