drleather2001 said:Three runs per week:
One short (3-6 miles) run where you run as fast as you comfortably can.
One medium (5-9 miles) where you run at the pace you plan to run the race.
One long (10-16) where you run 30 seconds per mile slower than your marathon pace.
The problem you will have is that, even with a long run of 18 miles, that's still 8 miles left to go, and it will be the hardest 8 miles you have ever run. Running multiple times per week trains you to run on tired muscles to maximize efficiency and minimize injury risk.
You'll be able to finish if you don't get hurt. Just realize that running a quick 8 mile run, without a foundation of several 30-40 mile weeks to go with it, has almost no predictive value of how you'll perform in the 26 mile race.
Slow and steady. Slow and steady.
And, frankly, if you can't prioritize the race enough to run at least three (4 is preferable) times per week, ask yourself why you are doing this. You're setting yourself up for 5 hours of misery.
Deferral is not an option. Failure is not an option. I'm with Leather. Getting with his program immediately.sass a thon said:
Yes. All of this. Personally, I still think you are in for a very long day. I just don't think this is enough training this late in the game. But if you can't manage 4 runs per week, you're much better off deferring to 2016. I know deferral is an expensive option, but running a long race for which you aren't prepared (half or full) is pure misery.
drleather2001 said:I tweaked my left achilles on my long run yesterday. It was sore at about mile 10 and I ran the remaining 10 just fine, although going up hill caused it to ache just a little.
It doesn't hurt when I walk, although when I press off to go up stairs it's a little sore. It also clicks a bit from time to time.
Any tips? From reading other forums, it appears ice, a little rest, and some foam rolling are the best sort-term measures, and that unless it gets worse I should be ok for my marathon in a few weeks.
Sorry to hear about the way it went down for you. I was mostly happy with my race. Much slower than the Gulf Beach Half one year ago, but I didn't crash like Fairfield earlier in the summer. This race makes me feel like the Wineglass Marathon in October could be enjoyable if I fuel and pace properly.24JoshuaPoint said:
Dangit i knew i should have checked back into this thread that morning.
Hope you had a better day than i did. Either i ate something bad or caught a virus. I didn't feel great when i woke up but i really didn't feel great starting around the second mile of the race. At first i thought it was just 'one of those days' but it increasingly developed into 'something ain't normal'. It was the worst time i've spent running in my life. I did 11 miles after work only a week before in intense heat and humidity and it was easy and fun. This was the worst. I finished and went straight home and laid down and drank water and whatever food i could get down for the next 12 hours. My face was paste white. I haven't been sick with anything in maybe two years and this came in and destroyed me.
So i put the Hartford Half on my to-do list and i plan to go for my goal again as well as maybe a bit faster by using the next few weeks to up the intensity.
Good luck with Hartford....there's always another race! If it were not for Wineglass, I would have likely have run as work had free slots for employees.
I'm with Sass: don't neglect your calves. Ensure you stretch them as much as possible.drleather2001 said:Thanks!
I could totally ice my Achilles during work. Maybe I'll do that.
BroodsSexton said:I'm on the Leather program. Plan is to train for 9:00 miles and day of, pace myself for 10, aiming to take a few of the easy miles below pace. Goal is to finish below 4:20, the one marathon I ran ten years ago. I should be able to do it. I was a smoker up until I started training for the last one. Haven't been since.
Not sure the convention here, but I assume nobody wants me to use this thread as a run journal, so I'll just update this post as I go along for my own benefit (unless I'm wrong and nobody minds run-by-run posting). I ran 5 at 8:15 today in the bright sunshine across the Brooklyn Bridge and up along the East River Greenway. It was fine--not crazy about running alongside the exhaust. I wonder whether it does more harm than good. I ran upstate last week and it was so much easier in the clear air--even with hills.
This was meant to be my fast-short run. So I guess next is my long leisurely run? 10 miles at 9:30 pace? I'll try to get that one Thursday.
One last thing--I picked up a Forerunner 15 to try and be more precise about this process and the pace tracking in real time is wonky to the point of being useless. Any thoughts on that?
9/15: 5 mi. 8:15 pace. 6 difficulty (1-10 scale).
drleather2001 said:
Also: run your long runs slower than marathon pace. Or, certainly no faster than marathon pace. One thing you want to do is get your body used to that speed. Different speeds use different muscles, so running faster does not always equal an improvement in your overall time at a longer distance. Building the speed muscles and getting your VO2 Max up is what the short runs are for.
Also, and just as importantly, you need to get your body used to burning fuel over a long period of time. By running for longer (over 1:30 is optimal) periods, your body becomes more efficient at burning fuel and transitioning from glucose reserves to fat. One of the primary goals of running long runs isn't to build speed or muscle, but to get the rest of your body used to the experience of sustained exertion. So, in that sense, running it faster is actually a detriment, because you're cutting the body-training short.
BroodsSexton said:10 mi. 8:37/mi. 6 difficulty.
Training was thrown off by Yom Kippur. I did lose some weight that day, though, so all good. (Kidding. but it reminds me of my boss who used to donate blood every year at the blood drive, and say that he did it to help him lose weight...)
I missed my "fast" run, so I got 8 miles in today, figuring that getting the miles in is more important than the speed training. I've set myself up to run 12 on Sunday. I struggled a little bit getting going, but then cruised through to the end and tacked on an extra mile.
Counting this weekend, it's six weeks to race day (November 1). So I'm aiming for a long run of 12 this weekend (9/27), 14 next weekend (10/4), 16 the weekend after that (10/11), and a final long run of 18 miles on October 18. I'll be aiming to keep to my interim fast runs and medium runs, as well. I guess I take the week of the 25th off (or just do a couple of light runs?)
Question: I'm still struggling a bit with pace. My natural pace seems to be between 8:30-8:45. But I'm afraid that I won't be able to keep that up for the entire run. And yet, when I consciously try to slow myself, it feels more labored. Like I'm plodding along. Should I just go with the natural pace, or do I really need to slow myself down?
sass a thon said:
I can relate; I often struggle with trying to force myself to run a slower pace. But if you try to run your "natural pace" for an entire 26.2 miles, odds are pretty good that you will really regret it around mile 20. I started out slower than I wanted in my first marathon, and through 15, I was bored and itching to go faster. I started to speed up a bit starting at, I think, mile 18. Because I'd started slow, I had enough in the tank for a really strong finish. A good gauge is the halfway mark; if you're feeling even a little bit tired at mile 13, you're in trouble. Your 18 mile training run will be a helpful indicator. At what pace are you planning on doing that?
So yes, all of that to say - you absolutely need to start out a little bit slower than your comfortable pace.
Really impressive training and race times. Good luck with qualifying! Have you run that race before, or are you familiar with the course?Harry Agganis said:Aug 22 5K at 21:54 First in Age Group
Sept 6 5K at 21:24 Fourth in Age Group PR
Sept 22 Half in 1:39:49 First in Age Group PR
All indications are good for a 3:30. Race is on Oct 17
If you want to run longer, and that pace is comfortable for you, I would run that pace, but add in frequent walk breaks. Like, every 8 minutes, or every mile (whatever is easier to keep track of) walk for 60-90 seconds. Trust me, it will help immensely.BroodsSexton said:Question: I'm still struggling a bit with pace. My natural pace seems to be between 8:30-8:45. But I'm afraid that I won't be able to keep that up for the entire run. And yet, when I consciously try to slow myself, it feels more labored. Like I'm plodding along. Should I just go with the natural pace, or do I really need to slow myself down?
I can't imagine doing that. I'll try it on a long run to see what it feels like, but I think the start and stop would be really annoying.Joe Sixpack said:If you want to run longer, and that pace is comfortable for you, I would run that pace, but add in frequent walk breaks. Like, every 8 minutes, or every mile (whatever is easier to keep track of) walk for 60-90 seconds. Trust me, it will help immensely.
rbeaud said:So it looks like BQ-1:42 won't get me in the 2016 race. The BAA has refunded my entry fee, simply awaiting the official email which should come tomorrow. While I could wish to have run straighter, adding about 1/4 mile total per GPS, the killer was cramping early and hitting the wall before mile 15. Plus that 1 minute walk around mile 20 (for cramps)! This race was similar most of my long distance racing in the last year or so. One year ago I ran a fabulous half; my finishing mile was nearly my (old) 10k pace. In that race I had one GU at 7M with a some water. Relatively cool fall day as I recall. What really seems to derail my recent long distance races is (or seems to be) loss of energy. In my 20k three weeks ago, I was doing well thru 10M. And then the wall grabbed me and I promptly slowed by about 1 min/mile. Same as a half in June.
While no one would normally recommend changing things up before a race, I'm not sure how it could hurt based on the 9 months of racing. Typically I have one GU every 45 min. I've noticed that in the later miles the wall feeling leads to lack of desire for fuel/drink. This likely makes the wall worse. A few online articles suggest 30-60g/hr of carbs. I'm thinking to switch from GU (29g) to Stingers (39g) and possibly even 1.5 Stingers (60g) to max out carbs/hour. I like Stingers because they are essentially gummies! Normally, I'm hydrated enough (or think I am) to skip water until the half. When I add water it is 2-4 oz per 45 min. That said, I'm possibly too hydrated as several races required stops during the initial 3-10 miles. Nonetheless, I can "see" the color of my dehydration post-race. Again, thinking to ingest water sooner and more often than every 5M or so.
Anyone have recommendations or comments? This is problem a good topic for Kremlin Watcher if he still peruses these threads...
Thanks Sass. Do you have UCAN out your way? For the 20k and half I had it prerace...it sat well with me and I'm leaning toward it per their instructions. That is at 90 and 30 min prior which would be double my previous race intake. The course had their electrolyte. I likely took in less than an optimal quantity based on this discussion. Again, I'm starting to think more liquids on the course will help.sass a thon said:
Not sure if this will be true for you, but it's the lesson I learned the hard way (vomiting and nearly blacking out during two marathons). Most distance runners are almost always in a state of dehydration. In general, it's hard to stay properly hydrated when you're running such high mileage. So fast forward to race day: you skip water on the first half of the race, and by the second half, when you're dehydrated, you're taking in water, further flooding the diminishing amount of electrolytes left in your body.
Have you tried taking in electrolytes during a run? I'm not talking garbage like Gatorade or Powerade, but something like Nuun or Hammer? There are tons of options out there. I'd suggest trying that to see if it helps. Try it on long runs, before/after a run, etc - you may find a cadence that works for you.
And yes, I think you should be sipping water/something throughout the race, not just on the back half. I like starting races with a mini water bottle. It allows me to sip at my own pace and avoid the congestion of water stops. Plus, when I toss it, I suddenly feel a bit lighter, which is a nice mental boost.
drleather2001 said:What kind of shin pain?
If it's shin splints, they aren't going to go away anytime soon. Typically, they come from increasing mileage too quickly.
I recommend you get some compression sleeves for your calves. They helped me with mild shin splits. That and lots of stretching (making the alphabet in the air with my toes).
I would run slowly on Friday and call it off if you're still hurting after two miles. Again, others here with more experience might differ.
BroodsSexton said:5 mi., 7:55/mi., 8 difficulty.
This was a tough run for two reasons: cramps and shins. I took the pace up for the "fast" run (per the Leather training plan). I cramped at 2.5 miles in and almost didn't finish, but pushed through. Now that I'm done, my shins are barking at me for the first time. The run was unusual, too, in that I ran this afternoon (I usually run in the morning) and the weather had me feeling low energy all day (humid and warm, and cloudy like it could rain any moment). I didn't use any fuel on the run.
Any feedback? Friday will be 8-10 miles at a target of 9:15.
While all of this is great maintenance, the Toes Pose and counterpose at 1:30 are especially good for shin splints (something I'm prone to myself):BroodsSexton said:
Nothing too severe, in terms of shin pain. It was more like acute soreness after the fact. I didn't really notice it when running, but it was a different kind of soreness than I have previously experienced once I finished. I don't know, are they shin splints? I'll try the compression sleeves--I saw a guy with them the other day. But it's going to make me feel like an old dude to start wearing compression.
I wonder if running later in the day, and increasing the pace, led to the cramping. Is that possible?
fiskful of dollars said:Whenever I have tightness in my calves or Achilles I break out the compression sleeves. They are awesome.