Spurs 22/23: So, do we have a manager?
- Thread starter DJnVa
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We have subs who can come on and make the team more threatening to chase a goal now, it rules. Perisic with his set piece delivery was insanely dangerous as well.
That's what stood out to me as well. With 5 subs, Conte was continuously bringing on quality options that provided tactical versatility in most cases. Huge difference from the end of last season when presumably Conte would look at the bench around 60'-70' and just say nahhhhh, let's roll with the XI a bit longer. Like my buddy said, the front 5 of Kane-Son-Kulu-Richarlison-Lucas will rescue a ton of points throughout the season.
In transfer news, GLC to Villarreal on loan is confirmed. No details on money yet, although there appears to be an interesting break option for Spurs if they can find a permanent buyer for GLC in the January window.
https://cartilagefreecaptain.sbnation.com/2022/8/14/23303271/tottenham-hotspur-transfer-news-rumors-giovani-lo-celso-villarreal-loan-done-deal
Still need to find homes for Tanguy, Winks, Reggie, and maybe a couple of others out of the Gil, Japh, Dav, Sarr group.
What I'd like to see:
-Sarr on loan. I am assuming they sign one more midfielder after Winks goes (who I hope is not Zionolo)
-Tanganga - Stay as the 5th or 6th center back
-Davinson - don't see anyway he leaves unless there is a ridiculous price paid for him
-Gil - I would like to see him stay and be the 6th attacker once the schedule starts to get ridiculous. He can get some good domestic cup minutes.
Best I can tell, one of Winks or Tanganga have to stay based on being English. I hope it is Japhet.
I thought Tanguy to Napoli was essentially done:
View: https://twitter.com/FabrizioRomano/status/1558202109169917952?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1558202109169917952%7Ctwgr%5E2f7e5af89940e86e997fe76827ed7e5cd5826337%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fcartilagefreecaptain.sbnation.com%2F2022%2F8%2F13%2F23303738%2Ftottenham-hotspur-transfer-news-rumors-tanguy-ndombele-napoli-loan-obligation-champions-league
-Sarr on loan. I am assuming they sign one more midfielder after Winks goes (who I hope is not Zionolo)
-Tanganga - Stay as the 5th or 6th center back
-Davinson - don't see anyway he leaves unless there is a ridiculous price paid for him
-Gil - I would like to see him stay and be the 6th attacker once the schedule starts to get ridiculous. He can get some good domestic cup minutes.
Best I can tell, one of Winks or Tanganga have to stay based on being English. I hope it is Japhet.
I thought Tanguy to Napoli was essentially done:
View: https://twitter.com/FabrizioRomano/status/1558202109169917952?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1558202109169917952%7Ctwgr%5E2f7e5af89940e86e997fe76827ed7e5cd5826337%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fcartilagefreecaptain.sbnation.com%2F2022%2F8%2F13%2F23303738%2Ftottenham-hotspur-transfer-news-rumors-tanguy-ndombele-napoli-loan-obligation-champions-league
Agreed, ideally in England (low prem, high c-ship)
OK with this. He can also play outside in a defensive 4.
Agree, and glad. I like Big Dave.
Torn on this one. Yes, he'd get some good cup minutes and Conte time... but could it be better on loan getting loads of minutes?
Me, too, and for Harry's sake, he needs a new home.
COYS
I don't get why Spurs continue to buy so many players, even if they're loaning him right back out. I guess this could be looked at stocking the proverbial prospect pool with our newly found funds, but it seems like some of this should be banked for the next windows. Now, if they spend like drunken sailors again next summer more power to Paratici, but it's staggering.
Just to keep stock of where we are, GLC to Villarreal looks confirmed and Tanguy to Napoli is not far behind if at all. So in terms of players who may or should still be moved, it looks like (TM value in Euros): Reggie (25M), Gil (18M), Winks (15M), Sarr (15M), Japh (12M), and Doherty (12M). Reggie is the only one that absolutely should go, mostly because if he's not going to play we need to recoup his value now before it goes down further. Gil may just be the AMF technician that we still want to sign--although that's what we needed against Chelsea and I doubt Conte ever considered him. Winks should go but if he stays for whatever reason he at least helps with the homegrown issue. Sarr should go unless there's going to be minutes for him as the 5th CMF, although Skipp's injury problems are starting to get real concerning. Japh should also be considered for a loan/sale because there's almost certainly not enough minutes for him as the 5th/6th CB (depending on where Lenglet slots in once healthy). Doherty should also go if we can get any real money for him, because right now he looks like the 3rd option at WB on either side, although even that's not certain with Spence's acquisition.
Just to keep stock of where we are, GLC to Villarreal looks confirmed and Tanguy to Napoli is not far behind if at all. So in terms of players who may or should still be moved, it looks like (TM value in Euros): Reggie (25M), Gil (18M), Winks (15M), Sarr (15M), Japh (12M), and Doherty (12M). Reggie is the only one that absolutely should go, mostly because if he's not going to play we need to recoup his value now before it goes down further. Gil may just be the AMF technician that we still want to sign--although that's what we needed against Chelsea and I doubt Conte ever considered him. Winks should go but if he stays for whatever reason he at least helps with the homegrown issue. Sarr should go unless there's going to be minutes for him as the 5th CMF, although Skipp's injury problems are starting to get real concerning. Japh should also be considered for a loan/sale because there's almost certainly not enough minutes for him as the 5th/6th CB (depending on where Lenglet slots in once healthy). Doherty should also go if we can get any real money for him, because right now he looks like the 3rd option at WB on either side, although even that's not certain with Spence's acquisition.
Stagnant first half, but man, Perisic put in a shift. I like what Richarlison is doing too. Don't know if he can be that active all game though. Sonny a little off his game, but a win is a win.
Last year in this set of games, they took home 0 points, so 7 is a nice haul.
Last year in this set of games, they took home 0 points, so 7 is a nice haul.
This is already a terrific ROI on the set piece specialist. Perisic is going to be soooooo good when fully fit and weaponized. Emerson also having a very bright start to the season. He's showing good chem with Deki and takes some of the pressure off of Dav to play the ball. But even Dav looks so much more confident.
Son always plays well against his former BL teams. I think this is pretty much the best draw I could have hoped for.
It's a good draw for travel too, nothing crazy. Some Spurs writers are being a bit pessimistic (is that a prereq for Spurs people? So many seem fatalistic about EVERYTHING) because there are no true minnows, but come on--Spurs should be a betting favorite in every match, unless there's some scenario where they are through and playing a team that needs a result in final game or something.
Weird cognitive dissonance developing for both media and some Spurs fans I read where the narrative is that they’re getting dominated and just scraping by and that Conte’s super-defensive looking for 1 - 0s. Meanwhile Spurs have 3+ goals over a dozen times this year.
Until it starts clicking, getting 3 points every time out is most important. Of course we want to see Spurs dominate a bit more, but most people agree that Spurs were fairly dominant yesterday out of possession, and they clearly had a strategy to press hard and high when certain triggers were met.
That said, I'd like to see Conte have a plan for the opposition overloading the MF. Even if you're bullish on the Hoj-Ben10 pairing, they don't have much of a chance without a third in there, even if it's just at times. But until we start dropping points against bad opposition, hard to argue with results. Fairly excited to see the rotations start with 2-a-weeks beginning on Wednesday with WHU.
That said, I'd like to see Conte have a plan for the opposition overloading the MF. Even if you're bullish on the Hoj-Ben10 pairing, they don't have much of a chance without a third in there, even if it's just at times. But until we start dropping points against bad opposition, hard to argue with results. Fairly excited to see the rotations start with 2-a-weeks beginning on Wednesday with WHU.
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Cuti being out matters too. I think Bissouma will start to get more minutes as well, making the midfield a bit more dynamic. And I think the Spurs will begin to look better when the fixtures start piling up as they are deeper than a lot of the teams they'll be facing.
I did see one tweet thread yesterday talking about how the Spurs *should* only get better as all the new players settle into roles and get their fitness to Conte levels. So even with that improvement on the horizon, they're still at 10 of 12 points. Including getting 7 from a stretch of opponents where last year they got ZERO.
I did see one tweet thread yesterday talking about how the Spurs *should* only get better as all the new players settle into roles and get their fitness to Conte levels. So even with that improvement on the horizon, they're still at 10 of 12 points. Including getting 7 from a stretch of opponents where last year they got ZERO.
He banged a post 2 games ago and almost curled that one in yesterday. Like a hitter that needs a seeing eye single to bust a slump, he needs a tap in to be off and running. Hell, maybe he'll get a PK try if Kane gets some time off.
Transfermarkt has positional data on about 320 games in Carrasco's career and lists him as a RWB for three of them. He seems more likely to be forward depth or LWB.
Not sure (as I said, don't know much about him), but this article says he's been playing there:
Exclusive: Tottenham in talks to sign Atletico Madrid star Yannick Carrasco (msn.com)
With Perisic and Sessegnon on the left, I don't think we need depth there.
For whatever reason, I think many media members can't wrap their heads around the idea that a counter-attacking side can score quite a high number of goals. It's silly really as Conte's teams have generally been fairly high scoring. United in the 1990s was also known for counter-attacking football. And the highest scoring side in La Liga history wasn't Pep's Barcelona but Mourinho's 11-12 Real Madrid. These managers aren't looking to win 1-0, they're looking to get the first goal, invite the opposition forward, and then win 3-0 or 4-1.
All that said, Spurs look like a team that is till trying to get the balance right in terms of how much territory and possession to concede, especially against weaker opposition. These stats aren't where you want to be, even as a counter-attacking side.
View: https://twitter.com/oh_that_crab/status/1564301207329419264
With the midfield two, pretty much almost any midfield setup with more numbers can usually pass around Spurs and get to the final 3rd, especially when the most aggressive CB in terms of stepping up (Romero) is out. Hard to get good shots on the backline though, and then the front three is insane on the counter-attack.
Spurs seem to also be partially explicitly game planning (and partially just being caught napping) for relatively sedate 1st halves compared to their 2nd halves. That's where you're getting a lot of "they're being dominated in possession" narratives for games that end up being pretty close to 50/50 by the end.
Spurs seem to also be partially explicitly game planning (and partially just being caught napping) for relatively sedate 1st halves compared to their 2nd halves. That's where you're getting a lot of "they're being dominated in possession" narratives for games that end up being pretty close to 50/50 by the end.
Spurs currently have 9 Goals and 3 Goals allowed. The xG stats are 7xG and 4xGA. So they are outperforming their xG by a bit (although historically they ALWAYS overperform their xG) and really are on target with their xGA, which shows that while they are conceding possession, they aren't conceding much possession in places where they could be hurt.
I thought they pretty much dominated Forest. Forest didn't have many great chances, there was a Yates header that went wide that he probably should have scored, and one counter-attacking chance after the penalty save were the only real chances. Kane easily could have scored four goals in this game, he missed the PK and should have scored a second goal in the first half if not for being a little slow to make a decision and an outstanding tackle by the Forest defender.
I thought they pretty much dominated Forest. Forest didn't have many great chances, there was a Yates header that went wide that he probably should have scored, and one counter-attacking chance after the penalty save were the only real chances. Kane easily could have scored four goals in this game, he missed the PK and should have scored a second goal in the first half if not for being a little slow to make a decision and an outstanding tackle by the Forest defender.
As an outside observer, I see a squad that’s still working out the details and bedding in transfers, yet has taken 10 out of 12 points. I think it’s Spurs’ supporters/journos lack of confidence that see this as anything but a sign of quality - they’re racking up points even when they’re not at their best.
I think you have to be delighted as a Spurs fan about the results, especially given that the draw was at Chelsea. And overall I think the performances are pretty good, as backed by the xg stats. But all that can be true while there are also some things going on in the performances that probably indicate some real areas where continued improvement is necessary.
Xg allowed doesn't always capture the level of threat in a match and its noisy enough that you probably need a pretty big sample to draw really strong conclusions so its worth looking at other statistics that capture different aspects of game dynamics. In terms of defensive solidity, touches allowed in the penalty box is a pretty consistent predictor of team success. Nobody wants to defend in the penalty box because once you're that deep, even with a well organized defense shit (deflections, penalty calls, bad bounces) often happens that turns into goals. Even a counter-attacking team does not want to frequently defend in their own box. Conte's scudetto winning Inter team was second best in the league that year in terms of penalty box touches conceded. His fairly pedestrian 17-18 Chelsea team was 4th best in the PL (unfortunately FBRef stats for this start that year so you can't look at his 16-17 title winners but I bet they were very very good in this respect). Spurs were only 10th best in the PL on that stat last year (this is contaminated by the Nuno spell so they may have been slightly better under Conte) and are 15th best in a very small sample this year. I don't think it is indicative of some kind of fatal flaw that can't be improved on but I think its also pretty clear that Spurs will need to get better in that regard to realize their ambitions.
As part of the broader discussion, it should be said that Conte ideally wants to invite the opposition forward then bypass them and strike quickly. Romero is the primary offensive engine in the back 3 and his presence certainly helps Dier and to a lesser extent Davies. Having him out is having an effect that predates his injury too to be fair. But I suspect we'll see improvement once he returns and perhaps even more if Lenglet comes in for Davies and performs well.
Bentancur is out for at least a week with a concussion suffered at the end of the Forest game. Time to rev up your Bissoumas!
Bentancur is out for at least a week with a concussion suffered at the end of the Forest game. Time to rev up your Bissoumas!
Since xG has been tracked, Son has 75 goals against a an xG of 55. Kane has 109 goals against 94 xG. Since those guys score all the goals for Tottenham, they always overperform their xG.
He's not on sheet, but Skipp is.
Bissouma getting start for Betancur, the rest of XI remains the same.
That second half was the worst Spurs have played so far this season. I did not enjoy the reappearance of Extremely Self-Destructive Hugo, who we haven't seen much of recently.
Strangely flat derby from both sides
Strangely flat derby from both sides
Spurs missed Romero a lot yesterday. We've seen this before, but Sanchez+Emerson+Lloris is just one too many non-passers at the back to play Spurs' style. It become too easy for opponents to press and force the ball to one of those three, where the possession goes to die.
They were stagnant the whole second half, but they shut off for like 45 seconds--Lloris with pass out of bounds, players bitching instead of watching the throw. Ugh.
In Conte we trust, but PEH was struggling yesterday. Pull him and get fresh legs in there.
In Conte we trust, but PEH was struggling yesterday. Pull him and get fresh legs in there.
I think this is right.
I believe the closest thing to a solution is that if/when Romero gets hurt / suspended again, Longlet might need to play in the middle of the back three rather than Dier or Spence/Doherty might need to play on the right wing rather than Emerson. Watching West Hamm force all of the passing to the Emerson / Sanchez side and then Spurs look lost was fucking painful. The one advantage of the two games in four days thing is that the contrast of how much smoother things looked with Romero & Longlet doing to build up from the back was really obvious.
Should we chalk up that first half to nerves or just a decent opponent putting in work ? It wasn't pretty, but OM wasn't really putting anything threatening on Lloris (who again looked oddly off handling the ball).
Spurs quality showed enough though--Kane through ball to Son leading to red, Spurs wear them down and Richarlison finishes.
Spurs quality showed enough though--Kane through ball to Son leading to red, Spurs wear them down and Richarlison finishes.
I’ll just continue to pop in to say that I love Richarlison unconditionally and now you know why. I’m weirdly happy and proud for him. The clip of him hugging his parents in the stands (can’t find one atm that hasn’t been disabled for copyright), man he wanted CL and he seized it with both hands.
I didn't get to watch closely but I think Marseille is a good side, and Conte does have a bit of bend don't break (or as they say in the futbol world, we had to "suffer") to him. There was a piece I read this morning somewhere (CBS?) that basically said to everyone calling for a better passer in the MF, Conte DGAF about passing, those guys are primarily screeners for the D. So while there was space in Spurs' half of the field, I think the first half xG for OM was like 0.12? Spurs only mustered 0.24 or something like that, but I think there was some rope a dope involved and Spurs do look the part of a side that doesn't mind relying on some Perisic and Co. crossing for Kane, Richy, and others to head in.
A few other thoughts about the match. Bardi from the Extra Inch is a Hoj hater, and I among many others give him a lot of shit for it. Well, Hoj had the interception and pass to Kane before sending Son that led to the red card, and then he assisted Richy's second. Hoj is a rock in there and we're lucky to have him. Ben10 misplaced a few passes but I think was otherwise fine.
I thought the substitutions today were notable and very telling for the future. First, when Spurs need to chase a match, I think we can expect the front 3 of Son-Kane-Richy PLUS Deki at RWB to be the go-to move. Deki's so good, but also so versatile. He doesn't look fast at first glance, but he's not slow and he has long strides and endurance. Lenglet looks really good at LCB and his passing is superior to Davies'. I love me some Ben D and I think they'll both play a lot, but Lenglet offers a lot. Davies almost gifted away a goal at the end, but I think he dove head first and stopped the shot with his head. Does anyone have a video of this?!?? I don't know a single Spurs fan who isn't rooting hard for Japh to stick. So nice to see him come on for a recovering Romero and get some big game minutes. Really nice to see Doherty back in action as well. Finally, I feel like the Sess-Perisic balance at LWB will be heavily opponent-dependent. If the opponent is expected to sit deep, Perisic is going to be more valuable with his superior crossing. If the opponent is playing a higher line, then Sess' speed and ability to get in behind will be more valuable. Sess is obviously younger, fitter, and stronger, and likely a better defender, so if Conte wants to be more stout then Sess will play. The only issue I see with Sess in the XI is that it seems to render Son a bit less effective because Sess takes up some of the positions and spaces Son likes for himself. That's a good problem that can be sorted out though with Sess underlapping more, and figuring out how to attack the half spaces better.
Sporting beat Frankfurt 3-0, but this game was tight and tied 0-0 until an hour. Both sides had good chances, and Sporting in particular was very loose and error-prone in the back but kept getting bailed out by the keeper and last ditch defending. They did press well though. And they have quality up top.
A few other thoughts about the match. Bardi from the Extra Inch is a Hoj hater, and I among many others give him a lot of shit for it. Well, Hoj had the interception and pass to Kane before sending Son that led to the red card, and then he assisted Richy's second. Hoj is a rock in there and we're lucky to have him. Ben10 misplaced a few passes but I think was otherwise fine.
I thought the substitutions today were notable and very telling for the future. First, when Spurs need to chase a match, I think we can expect the front 3 of Son-Kane-Richy PLUS Deki at RWB to be the go-to move. Deki's so good, but also so versatile. He doesn't look fast at first glance, but he's not slow and he has long strides and endurance. Lenglet looks really good at LCB and his passing is superior to Davies'. I love me some Ben D and I think they'll both play a lot, but Lenglet offers a lot. Davies almost gifted away a goal at the end, but I think he dove head first and stopped the shot with his head. Does anyone have a video of this?!?? I don't know a single Spurs fan who isn't rooting hard for Japh to stick. So nice to see him come on for a recovering Romero and get some big game minutes. Really nice to see Doherty back in action as well. Finally, I feel like the Sess-Perisic balance at LWB will be heavily opponent-dependent. If the opponent is expected to sit deep, Perisic is going to be more valuable with his superior crossing. If the opponent is playing a higher line, then Sess' speed and ability to get in behind will be more valuable. Sess is obviously younger, fitter, and stronger, and likely a better defender, so if Conte wants to be more stout then Sess will play. The only issue I see with Sess in the XI is that it seems to render Son a bit less effective because Sess takes up some of the positions and spaces Son likes for himself. That's a good problem that can be sorted out though with Sess underlapping more, and figuring out how to attack the half spaces better.
Sporting beat Frankfurt 3-0, but this game was tight and tied 0-0 until an hour. Both sides had good chances, and Sporting in particular was very loose and error-prone in the back but kept getting bailed out by the keeper and last ditch defending. They did press well though. And they have quality up top.
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