The Game Goat Thread: Week 16 at the Jets

awallstein

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I'd imagine BB told Slater, "so we want to kick; and we'd also like to go this direction." That way, if he knows the rule, and if he infers that BB meant to prioritize the preferences in the order stated, Slater would have all the info he'd need, regardless of whether they won the toss, or of which choice the Jets made in the event the Pats lost the toss...
 

j44thor

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Getting back to the Goats, I really don't understand lining Gronk up wide on Revis for so much of the game.
Especially with the OL decimated it would seem to make sense to have him much closer to the tackles so he could at least chip the DL/LBs and still work the middle of the field for passes which is where Gronk can dominate LBs and Safeties.

Waste Lafell or Martin on Revis island, not the best TE in the NFL. Unless they were concerned about his health but if that is the case why put him out there at all?
 

crystalline

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Tony I believe your first instinct is right, that electing to kick was a good decision.

Ignore that article, it's moronic. For one, it treats this game as if it was the same as any average game- not accounting for the fact that the Pats' and Jets' offense and defense might be better or worse than average.

Also here is one choice quote from the article:
"Several different ways of analyzing the question (Markov chains, backward induction and simulation)"

Anyone who says this doesn't know the first thing about analytics.
 

Harry Hooper

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Getting back to the Goats, I really don't understand lining Gronk up wide on Revis for so much of the game.
Especially with the OL decimated it would seem to make sense to have him much closer to the tackles so he could at least chip the DL/LBs and still work the middle of the field for passes which is where Gronk can dominate LBs and Safeties.

Waste Lafell or Martin on Revis island, not the best TE in the NFL. Unless they were concerned about his health but if that is the case why put him out there at all?
Gronk went over the middle for the game-tying drive, but otherwise seemed sheltered for the most part. Was this a protective measure, or maybe Gronk was limited in what he could give today so Revis gets largely wasted on a big decoy?
 

mulluysavage

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Not sure what explanation is needed, BB thought he had a better chance of getting a stop and kicking a FG on a short field than going to get a TD or getting enough yards to flip field position.
You don't know this was his reasoning - he didn't say. There are a number of other points and lines of reasoning mentioned in this thread, maybe those were his reasons, maybe they weren't. He's asked point blank for his reasoning at press conferences, and does what he's famous for: gives short evasive answers and is generally an ass to the media. Of course BB doesn't owe us answers. I don't really give a shit, the Pats win and he's an all-time great coach. It's great when he drops football knowledge a la Breakdowns, and it would be fun to understand what was behind the OT thinking. However I don't think you can say that you know BB's reasoning if he hasn't explained it.
 

speedracer

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Here's Burke's original OT Markov model (which claims a 56-44 advantage for the receiving team). Obviously it's super crude (assuming league-average everything, and averaging a whole range of field positions in the "no score" branches), but it's pretty easy to follow.

 

RedOctober3829

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You can bring out all the metrics you want, but these kind of decisions come down to the coach knowing his team. BB knew his offense needed the short field to score moreso than normal. No one wants the opponent to score, but that's a gamble I'd be comfortable taking in today's game. BB doesn't ever apologize doing what he thinks is best for the team in every situation.
 

Stitch01

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You don't know this was his reasoning - he didn't say. There are a number of other points and lines of reasoning mentioned in this thread, maybe those were his reasons, maybe they weren't. He's asked point blank for his reasoning at press conferences, and does what he's famous for: gives short evasive answers and is generally an ass to the media. Of course BB doesn't owe us answers. I don't really give a shit, the Pats win and he's an all-time great coach. It's great when he drops football knowledge a la Breakdowns, and it would be fun to understand what was behind the OT thinking. However I don't think you can say that you know BB's reasoning if he hasn't explained it.
Not sure what to say, you can disagree with his line of thought but it's pretty obvious what he was thinking.

I think it was a mistake, but I have no trouble understanding what he was thinking there. I really disagree with what he did to end the first half but it isn't hard to figure out what he was thinking there either.
 

k-factory

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You can bring out all the metrics you want, but these kind of decisions come down to the coach knowing his team. BB knew his offense needed the short field to score moreso than normal. No one wants the opponent to score, but that's a gamble I'd be comfortable taking in today's game. BB doesn't ever apologize doing what he thinks is best for the team in every situation.
He does state in just about every presser that he thinks the execution needs to be better and the coaching needs to be better. Key there though is that he knows what needs work and what doesn't. He doesn't need a gotcha baiting keyboard jockey displaying that he knows better than coach.
 

DeadlySplitter

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Yeah, good point. I was kind of hoping they would for the reason stated. Maybe he was hoping that they could stop the Jets before time ran out in regulation and get a crack at a field goal then? They actually did do that, but then the tricky-tack DPI gave the Jets a new set of downs.
Nink also tipped a ball that was almost INT'd, that would have been great.

Let's just get healthy and these multiweighted OT strategies will be irrelevant
 

crystalline

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Here's Burke's original OT Markov model (which claims a 56-44 advantage for the receiving team). Obviously it's super crude (assuming league-average everything, and averaging a whole range of field positions in the "no score" branches), but it's pretty easy to follow.

Just because he writes down some numbers and arrows and calls it a "Markov Chain"* doesn't mean he's done a good job describing reality. In particular, as you note, this model doesn't differentiate the Pats and Jets from average teams. And that is a huge problem- adding that info can easily change the final conclusion.

* in baseball we'd call this "calculating win expectation". In analytics more generally you'd probably call it "looking at average probabilities". In any case, the method is the most simplistic thing you can do, it's getting the number of boxes and the probabilities right that is hard. The only reason to call this a "Markov chain" is to make yourself sound fancy. (The diagram doesn't even have any backwards paths, and there is no concept of time. The whole point of using Markov chains is to calculate intermediate occupancy probabilities assuming a timestep, all of which is moot here because you only care about the binary final outcome and all the paths are forward.)

It sounds like Brian Burke should also get put on the BBTL "ignore list".

Edit: in a quick search, this is the best description I found of what Markov chains are useful for:
http://www.analyticsvidhya.com/blog/2014/07/markov-chain-simplified/

Sorry, I'm just annoyed at the game outcome tonight and I don't want to think about the injury consequences further. I normally just ignore misguided articles like this...
 
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j44thor

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Not sure what to say, you can disagree with his line of thought but it's pretty obvious what he was thinking.

I think it was a mistake, but I have no trouble understanding what he was thinking there. I really disagree with what he did to end the first half but it isn't hard to figure out what he was thinking there either.
I don't disagree with the strategy at the end of the 1st half but I do have a problem with the execution. If you are going to run the clock then do exactly that and don't expose your players to unnecessary injury.

After they ran for the 1st down and didn't attempt to conserve time they should have taken a knee. That pass to James White that lead him right into a LB could have very easily ended with him concussed, all for a 4yd gain. That is just a flat out stupid decision from a risk reward perspective.
 

dhappy42

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I don't disagree with the strategy at the end of the 1st half but I do have a problem with the execution. If you are going to run the clock then do exactly that and don't expose your players to unnecessary injury.
See it all the time, but I can never understand or countenance running out the clock at the end of the first half for any reason. One minute of time at the end of the 2nd quarter is just as valuable as one minute of time at the end of the game. Use the opportunity to try to score. Seven points scored a minute before halftime count the same as seven points at the end of the game.

I suppose there are conceivable situations where it's a bad idea to try to score a minute or two before halftime, like if you have the ball on your own 1-yard line, but they are rare.
 

luckiestman

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I wish Belichick was my coach, though I like Bowles, and if the DPI didn't happen it probably works out for the Pats but when I heard the Pats say they were going to kick I liked that. I felt like Brady was going to come out and put up points.

I thought it was clear Slater was only confused on direction, not on kicking and Fouts fucked it up (he is no Phil Simms, but then again, who is?)
 

RedOctober3829

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He does state in just about every presser that he thinks the execution needs to be better and the coaching needs to be better. Key there though is that he knows what needs work and what doesn't. He doesn't need a gotcha baiting keyboard jockey displaying that he knows better than coach.
Coaching as in better game planning and play selection. Instead of coming off as inflammatory go back and watch A Football Life after the 4th and 2 call in Indy. He said to the team in film session that he does not ever apologize for making decisions such as that play and today that are "against the grain" if it is truly best for the team in that spot.

In no part of my post did I try to display I know more than him. In fact I did the exact opposite. I said that I have no problem with him doing what he did today multiple times.
 

crystalline

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One minute of time at the end of the 2nd quarter is just as valuable as one minute of time at the end of the game.
This is bollocks.

If Brady has the ball on his 1 with one minute remaining at the end of the 2nd quarter down 3, and if he has the ball in the same place, same clock at the end of the 4th quarter, is the best strategy the same? Please explain.
 

Stitch01

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I don't disagree with the strategy at the end of the 1st half but I do have a problem with the execution. If you are going to run the clock then do exactly that and don't expose your players to unnecessary injury.

After they ran for the 1st down and didn't attempt to conserve time they should have taken a knee. That pass to James White that lead him right into a LB could have very easily ended with him concussed, all for a 4yd gain. That is just a flat out stupid decision from a risk reward perspective.
They were fine even through the white pass if they just called a timeout or hurried. Playing to make sure above all that it is beyond a doubt it is the last possession, conservative for me but ok, whatever, they always feel they can adjust the offense at halftime and they don't want to go down two scores. Once they get the ball to the 35 or w/e with two timeouts it is just way too conservative down seven even with the limited offense, punt protection issues, and the young back end of the secondary. You are of course right, just give up if you are going to give up (Chiefs might lose a legit super bowl run because of this issue), but I'd have to go back and look at the clock to see when they could have given up and gotten to halftime without punting.
 

JokersWildJIMED

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No real goats...Two plays in the jets last drive in regulation...(1) the tip by Nink that could have been picked. Just unlucky. (2) DPI on Malcolm just a killer call in that situation that really ended up costing them the game. jets would have punted with 1:25 and the Pats had 2 timeouts left.
 

54thMA

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This team has some set of balls; more walking wounded than the French army in World War I, yet here they sit at 12-3 with the #1 seed in their control and they have three losses, two in overtime and one where the Eagles scored every way imaginable except for 65 toss power trap and they almost pulled that one out too.

I give them a ton of credit for doing what they've done; sorry, no goats for me, take care of business next week and get healthy. If they do, nobody in the AFC can beat them, including spinach chin and the Jets.
 

genoasalami

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This team has some set of balls; more walking wounded than the French army in World War I, yet here they sit at 12-3 with the #1 seed in their control and they have three losses, two in overtime and one where the Eagles scored every way imaginable except for 65 toss power trap and they almost pulled that one out too.

I give them a ton of credit for doing what they've done; sorry, no goats for me, take care of business next week and get healthy. If they do, nobody in the AFC can beat them, including spinach chin and the Jets.
Spot on. 13-3 with constant roster turmoil all year is pretty solid. In some respects, its been one of their more impressive seasons. So many things have to fall into place to win one Super Bowl, never mind back to back Super Bowls.
 

dhappy42

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This is bollocks.

If Brady has the ball on his 1 with one minute remaining at the end of the 2nd quarter down 3, and if he has the ball in the same place, same clock at the end of the 4th quarter, is the best strategy the same? Please explain.
Seems you wrote your post castigating me before you finished reading mine.
 

Seels

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I don't get why anyone cares if they won. It may have even been better that they lose. Worst case scenario is they have to go on the road to Cincinnati if both teams make it that far. Any other scenario leaves either Denver or Pittsburgh at home. I'm fine with the loss, they didn't get embarrassed, and could have won if they needed to.
 

Kramerica Industries

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I don't get why anyone cares if they won. It may have even been better that they lose. Worst case scenario is they have to go on the road to Cincinnati if both teams make it that far. Any other scenario leaves either Denver or Pittsburgh at home. I'm fine with the loss, they didn't get embarrassed, and could have won if they needed to.
If worst case happens and Denver wins out then the Pats would have to go to Denver
 

Mugsy's Jock

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I remember that Denver game -- the wind was a big factor. Not so much today (I was in the upper de at MetLife) as the wind was imperceptible.

Yeah, I don't like not giving it to Brady, but if the Jets won the toss,, they'd have elected to receive and the same scenario would've played out. The toss was a non-factor -- letting a bunch of no-name WRs get chunk plays was this issue.

Up: Sheard, Gronk, Ryan Allen
Down: Richards, Coleman, not enough James White
 

speedracer

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Sorry, I'm just annoyed at the game outcome tonight and I don't want to think about the injury consequences further. I normally just ignore misguided articles like this...
Yes, I know (or used to know) what Markov chains are and I mislabeled this probability tree as such.

That being said, I think Burke's put more thought into it than you realize (e.g. notice that the TD/FG/punt split in the upper branch is different from those in the lower branch and the root node, reflecting the fact that an offense that is behind in OT will be in 4-down mode).

Burke's refined ESPN model claims a much lower edge for the receiving team, but I like his cruder model better because it's transparent and tweakable.

The best place to start tweaking is at the root node, of course. I did notice is that it leaves out defensive TDs. According to this site, there were 73, 96 and 92 defensive TDs scored in the NFL over the last three full seasons. Teams get something like 12 meaningful possessions per game on average, so that's about (73+96+92) / (3 * 12 * 32 * 16) = about a 1.4% chance of a defensive TD on any given possession. So that definitely lowers the receiving team's chances.

The probability of a TD on the opening possession definitely seems like something that could be subject to significant fluctuation depending on skill levels; I'd be interested to see if someone can come up with a good estimate of this for yesterday's game.

Of course, we really need to consider two trees (one for the Patriots receiving, one for the Jets receiving). My rough guess so far is that it's possible that the Pats had 50% or less equity receiving the ball, but it's harder for me to imagine that that was less than their equity kicking off to the Jets.
 
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k-factory

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Coaching as in better game planning and play selection. Instead of coming off as inflammatory go back and watch A Football Life after the 4th and 2 call in Indy. He said to the team in film session that he does not ever apologize for making decisions such as that play and today that are "against the grain" if it is truly best for the team in that spot.

In no part of my post did I try to display I know more than him. In fact I did the exact opposite. I said that I have no problem with him doing what he did today multiple times.
I think we are on the same page. Apologies for not being more clear. I was actually just expanding on what you were saying.
The inflammatory comment was directed at the media as seen through the eyes of BB.
So many of the questions in the post-game presser were about that decision and trying to bait him into second-guessing himself. While he is completely self-assured about his decision making (and for good reason) i think he's also unlikely to let his guard down amongst the press.
If ever he did make a mistake in a game we'd never hear about it via the media is my only point. He would just couch it in a general statement of 'the coaching needs to be better.'
 

OCST

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All went the Jets way today and they still went to OT. Would love to see the Pats play these guys in the Razer in the play offs. What are the odds that the Jets lose to Buffalo next week?
No. This was what it looked like - a close game.
 

Eddie Jurak

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I think they should have either taken the wind in OT or gone for 2 after their 4th quarter touchdown. Why play for a tie if you think getting anything at all out of your offense is such a longshot?

If BBs confidence in the offense was so low that he thought the best move to start OT was to give up the ball and the wind, then he would have been better served by betting on Brady to make one play from the 2.
 

pedroia'sboys

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Gronk went over the middle for the game-tying drive, but otherwise seemed sheltered for the most part. Was this a protective measure, or maybe Gronk was limited in what he could give today so Revis gets largely wasted on a big decoy?
You're spot on. They definitely protected gronkowski yesterday from the middle of the field until late in the game. It definitely seems like Belichick view of playing/resting players late in the season has evolved. Or more likely after all the injuries this year taking a different approach. The fact that he is so willing to adapt to the situation is what makes him great.
 

IdiotKicker

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With regards to the end of the first half, my thought on it was that the offense had accumulated only 98 yards to that point, had shown no consistent ability to move the ball at all, could not give Brady any protection, and was likely in danger of giving the ball back if they went three and out. I think the thought process was likely to survive until halftime so the coaches could come up with a passable plan to deal with the protection issues and change a few things in terms of gameplan, as opposed to potentially giving the Jets another shot, with I believe two timeouts.

In a normal game with a full roster, you definitely see them utilize that time, but in this case, I don't blame them too much since the offense had been such a cluster to that point.
 

Spelunker

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I think they should have either taken the wind in OT or gone for 2 after their 4th quarter touchdown. Why play for a tie if you think getting anything at all out of your offense is such a longshot?

If BBs confidence in the offense was so low that he thought the best move to start OT was to give up the ball and the wind, then he would have been better served by betting on Brady to make one play from the 2.
BB wasn't trying to give up the ball and the wind.
 

( . ) ( . ) and (_!_)

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It wasn't BS, it was PI.It was close enough where it could have been let go but it wasn't.
I have not watched a replay of every pass from that game but I do know that DPI was not called often (was there another instance at all?). I am willing to say with certainty that there were plays that were closer to DPI in that game that were let go. It's just common sense knowing the number of passes thrown and the propensity for contact between a defender and a receiver. To change the in game standard of what is and is not DPI after the two minute warning is deplorable and another example of horribly inconsistent officiating.

The Butler call could have gone either way, it was close. But it happened on a day when all of the other 50/50 calls went the other way. That is what's very frustrating about the call.
 

Dollar

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BB wasn't trying to give up the ball and the wind.
Are you sure? My understanding is that all Belichick cared about was kicking off to start OT because wind wasn't really a factor. BB told Slater multiple times to choose "kick off", but Slater got all confused at the coin toss because he thought he'd be able to choose to kick and the direction. I think BB was perfectly happy giving the Jets the ball and the wind to ensure that the Pats were able to kick off.
 

pedroia'sboys

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Let's say the jets are the worst match up for the Pats, contingent Steelers staying home . They're only two point favorites at buffalo. Let's say they win that. Going to Houston is not going to be a cake walk at all if hoyer is playing. They will be 3-4 point favorites. The odds of them winning both games is 35 percent max. You got the Bengals chiefs Texans broncos.

If they get the one seed you couldnt ask for a easier road to the superbowl. The old awful thing that occurred yesterday was Volmer.
 

Byrdbrain

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There was a DPI against the Jets in the Pats 2nd to last drive that was similar, certainly DPI but it could have been let go. It took place on 2nd and 10 and nothing ended up happening with that drive so it ended up not being a big deal.
 

Silverdude2167

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Was it BS? Butler obviously made contact well before the bal got there.
For the way the game was called all day, that one call stood out badly.

Also it probably did not affect the outcome of the game, but the blatant OPI on the Jets first TD drive that the refs just ignored on 3rd down was nice too. I think Decker was blocking a soild 5 yeards down field before the pass was thrown to Thompkins.
 

luckiestman

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For the way the game was called all day, that one call stood out badly.

Also it probably did not affect the outcome of the game, but the blatant OPI on the Jets first TD drive that the refs just ignored on 3rd down was nice too. I think Decker was blocking a soild 5 yeards down field before the pass was thrown to Thompkins.

I think the call against the Pats was iffy, I also think you guys complain about OPI way too much.
 

Silverdude2167

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I think the call against the Pats was iffy, I also think you guys complain about OPI way too much.
Not true, If Gronk did what Marshall did on the 30 yard TD he would have been called for OPI guaranteed. That was a good no call, but there is a reason we complain about OPI so much.
 

Hoodie Sleeves

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It wasn't BS, it was PI.It was close enough where it could have been let go but it wasn't.
It was PI, but it was the sort of play that was happening all day, and that was the only time they called it. There was one play where Gronk was running down the field with Cromartie (I think) hanging off his uniform and they didn't call it (Gronk caught the ball anyways). That's why I hate the "let them play" ref style - it always ends up having a game defining impact.


I think going for 2 on the last touchdown would have been a mistake - being up 1 point with 1:30 or so left and the other team having the ball and timeouts is a bad place to be - a team working with 4 downs and only needing a field goal is really dangerous.
 

luckiestman

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Not true, If Gronk did what Marshall did on the 30 yard TD he would have been called for OPI guaranteed. That was a good no call, but there is a reason we complain about OPI so much.

Marshall didn't commit a penalty and it really wasn't close.