The Michael McCorkle "Mac" Jones Thread

[Over Guapo Grande]

Those Jones stats are garbage.

0-13 when teams opponents score +24 points. But in how many of those games did the Pats score +24 ? That stat without any context is a throwaway line.
No comeback wins- but no one mentions the defense pissing away a lead in the 4th after the Pats take the lead.

 

[Cellar-Door]

Tanks in football are much harder than Basketball and far less likely to work.

In the NBA you play 8 guys for the most part. You can tank in a year, draft a guy at #1, (usually draft another 1st rounder since to tank you traded players for picks), fill in 2-3 spots in FA, bring back the guy you shut down with an injury.... you've got your top 4-6 guys. 1 year later you add another 1st, maybe another FA... boom your top 8 turned over.

In the NFL... yeah bad QB play will help a lot, but you have to get 25-30 guys to be a contender, and cycles on NFL guys are short.

 

[Toe Nash]

Those Jones stats are garbage.

0-13 when teams opponents score +24 points. But in how many of those games did the Pats score +24 ? That stat without any context is a throwaway line.
No comeback wins- but no one mentions the defense pissing away a lead in the 4th after the Pats take the lead.

isn't that the point? They don't outscore people like, ever with Mac behind center. Even though the defense has held teams under 24 more than any other team.

I think the stats against playoff teams is far more telling. The Patriots had a really easy schedule last year, got lucky in facing backup QBs and only managed 8 wins. If they had a more average schedule that was more like a 6 win team and I feel like some of the optimists' outlook would change a fair amount.

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

Those Jones stats are garbage.

0-13 when teams opponents score +24 points. But in how many of those games did the Pats score +24 ? That stat without any context is a throwaway line.

No comeback wins- but no one mentions the defense pissing away a lead in the 4th after the Pats take the lead.

3 games where the Pats scored +24 and lost with Mac (29-35 vs DAL, 26-37 vs BAL and 26-33 vs MIN).

 

[Jinhocho]

Jordan Moore:



https://x.com/iJordanMoore/status/1704519432012251291?s=20

Gosh I've been saying this for the last year. This is the issue with Mac. There is no signature game. There is no great amazing comeback. You literally have to go back to Cam Newton to find a game where the pats won when the other team scored 24 or more points.

 

[Over Guapo Grande]

The MN game is my favorite example of this phenomenon. 28-39, for 382. 2TD - 0INT. Had another TD taken away by a headscratching review. Had a game-tying 4th down drive stall because of a missed DPI. I don't know what people could ask more of Mac in that situation, but it is chalked up to "welp, can't win a shootout"

EDIT- looking back through the boxscore, I forgot the dumb dumb Pierre Strong running into the kicker penalty which gave MN a fresh set of downs on the eventual game winning drive. Why is Achord still employed??

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

Gosh I've been saying this for the last year. This is the issue with Mac. There is no signature game. There is no great amazing comeback. You literally have to go back to Cam Newton to find a game where the pats won when the other team scored 24 or more points.

I said it as a throwaway line and it wasn't meant to be literal, but his signature win is likely the one where he threw 3 passes.

Until he can convert one of the numerous last drive chances he's had to win a game, this issue will hang over all discussion of him. Hasn't done it yet. Yes, Boutte should have gotten the second foot down. Yes Strange likely had a first down. Yet the issue remains. People point out all the other mistakes by other players but the QB is the most important player on the field and he has been unable to win ANY of those games. Not one.

He hasn't done it yet, and the sample size is growing larger each week.

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

The MN game is my favorite example of this phenomenon. 28-39, for 382. 2TD - 0INT. Had another TD taken away by a headscratching review. Had a game-tying 4th down drive stall because of a missed DPI. I don't know what people could ask more of Mac in that situation, but it is chalked up to "welp, can't win a shootout"

Such talk wouldn't be so prevelant if he had been able to do it even once so far.

QB in the NFL is hard. Life as a professional athlete is often unfair due to the expecations and criticism. Until Mac starts winning some of these types of games, he will have such discussions around him. He'd likely be the first to tell you he needs to play better.

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

People of a certain age might be reminded of the talk surrounding Bledsoe in his final New England years. "His OL stinks, he's taken tons of hits, he's got a pin in his finger, rebuild the OL and he'll be fine," etc etc etc. Shockingly reminiscent of the Mac talk these days, honestly. Blaming everyone but the QB for struggling.

And then Brady replaced Bledsoe and we all went, "Oh."

I am hoping that is not the case of Mac.

 

[jezza1918]

People of a certain age might be reminded of the talk surrounding Bledsoe in his final New England years. "His OL stinks, he's taken tons of hits, he's got a pin in his finger, rebuild the OL and he'll be fine," etc etc etc. Shockingly reminiscent of the Mac talk these days, honestly. Blaming everyone but the QB for struggling.

And then Brady replaced Bledsoe and we all went, "Oh."

I am hoping that is not the case of Mac.

I certainly think this line of reasoning has merit, but at the same time Brady wasn't asked to do too much that rookie year IIRC. At least, compared to what QBs today are asked to do. I think bottom line, and I think Ive mentioned it elsewhere, is that I dont think Mac's ceiling is someone who can consistently carry a team and make the sum greater than its parts. That said, I think a number of things somewhat outside his control are not helping him reach his ceiling.

 

[Rico Guapo]

I said it as a throwaway line and it wasn't meant to be literal, but his signature win is likely the one where he threw 3 passes.

Until he can convert one of the numerous last drive chances he's had to win a game, this issue will hang over all discussion of him. Hasn't done it yet. Yes, Boutte should have gotten the second foot down. Yes Strange likely had a first down. Yet the issue remains. People point out all the other mistakes by other players but the QB is the most important player on the field and he has been unable to win ANY of those games. Not one.

He hasn't done it yet, and the sample size is growing larger each week.

You're basically asking Mac to win these games by himself while covering for the sins of others including an average at best WR/TE group and a bad OL, an utterly impossible standard to live up to for anyone other than Brady.

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

You're basically asking Mac to win these games by himself while covering for the sins of others including an average at best WR/TE group and a bad OL, an utterly impossible standard to live up to for anyone other than Brady.

Again, these are the same things said about Bledsoe.

Obviously I don't want Mac to do it all by himself. But he's not THAT helpless, he has some weapons to work with, and despite all the adversity placed in his way I do not think it is unreasonable to ask your 1st round QB to lead a late drive to win at least one game. You can put in all the caveats you like and many of them would be fair, but 0 for 13 is 0 for 13 and at some point he has to get Ws.

I don't want him to be Brady. I do want him to win more games. That is the bottom line.

 

[Jimbodandy]

People of a certain age might be reminded of the talk surrounding Bledsoe in his final New England years. "His OL stinks, he's taken tons of hits, he's got a pin in his finger, rebuild the OL and he'll be fine," etc etc etc. Shockingly reminiscent of the Mac talk these days, honestly. Blaming everyone but the QB for struggling.

And then Brady replaced Bledsoe and we all went, "Oh."

I am hoping that is not the case of Mac.

In Bledsoe's last couple of years as a starter here, his offensive line was terrible. IIRC, rebuilding that was a focus of BFB as soon as he took the job. It wasn't all fancy, high draft picks (some were like Light), but mostly identifying quality guys who were available and bringing them in.

Look at the starting OL from the 5-11 year to the 11-5 year. Huge difference. Nevermind the improvements on defense, giving shorter fields. It all matters.

 

[bibajesus]

And if he's drafted by the Pats, chances are he may have a downgrade at receiver than what he has this year at USC.

That long touchdown was caught by none other than Jerry Rice's son, Brenden. The other went to Dorian Singer, who made AP All Pac-12 as a sophomore last year with Arizona.

The Pats recently had an all conference WR from the state of Arizona who was even a Biletnikoff finalist.

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

In Bledsoe's last couple of years as a starter here, his offensive line was terrible. IIRC, rebuilding that was a focus of BFB as soon as he took the job. It wasn't all fancy, high draft picks (some were like Light), but mostly identifying quality guys who were available and bringing them in.

Look at the starting OL from the 5-11 year to the 11-5 year. Huge difference. Nevermind the improvements on defense, giving shorter fields. It all matters.

A huge reason why the OL was seen as terrible is that Bledsoe was a statue and held the ball much too long to boot. Drop back, pat pat pat boom with the sack.

Mac unloads the ball quickly which is a good sign.

 

[cshea]

Again, these are the same things said about Bledsoe.

Obviously I don't want Mac to do it all by himself. But he's not THAT helpless, he has some weapons to work with, and despite all the adversity placed in his way I do not think it is unreasonable to ask your 1st round QB to lead a late drive to win at least one game. You can put in all the caveats you like and many of them would be fair, but 0 for 13 is 0 for 13 and at some point he has to get Ws.

I don't want him to be Brady. I do want him to win more games. That is the bottom line.

I mostly agree but he's had some opportunities crumble for things out of his control. The 2 fumbles inside the 10 by RB's (his first ever game and the Cincy game last year), 2 where he put them ahead late and the defense coughed it up (Raiders last year; Dallas in 2021).

 

[Jimbodandy]

A huge reason why the OL was seen as terrible is that Bledsoe was a statue and held the ball much too long to boot. Drop back, pat pat pat boom with the sack.

Mac unloads the ball quickly which is a good sign.

I'm not at all taking away from the difference that a QB makes. Just saying that OL improvements matter too.

I spent the whole draft day game threads complaining that we didn't improve there or in FA, so I guess grain of salt and all.

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

I mostly agree but he's had some opportunities crumble for things out of his control. The 2 fumbles inside the 10 by RB's (his first ever game and the Cincy game last year), 2 where he put them ahead late and the defense coughed it up (Raiders last year; Dallas in 2021).

Sure, I agree with you and I think I've been pretty consistent in saying it's not all on him.

At the same time.....just once he needs to win a game like that. It's pretty difficult to see that he's never been able to do so. We blame Boutte for not getting the second foot down but a quicker throw means he does. We blame the refs that the spot for Strange's run was messed up but at the same time a quicker throw hits Gisecki in stride and is likely a 1st, etc etc.

It's got to be wearing on the confidence of both Mac and the rest of the team that they continually fail in close and late situations.

 

[cshea]

Sure, I agree with you and I think I've been pretty consistent in saying it's not all on him.

At the same time.....just once he needs to win a game like that. It's pretty difficult to see that he's never been able to do so. We blame Boutte for not getting the second foot down but a quicker throw means he does. We blame the refs that the spot for Strange's run was messed up but at the same time a quicker throw hits Gisecki in stride and is likely a 1st, etc etc.

It's got to be wearing on the confidence of both Mac and the rest of the team that they continually fail in close and late situations.

Agreed. At some point he/they have to win these games. I keep telling myself we're due for one of these to go our way but then again they went our way almost every single time for 20 years so maybe we have a ways to go.

I think the 25 point statistic is the biggest stain on the resume, not the game winning drives or comebacks. Overall, it's the offense's job to put up points and 25 isn't really all that much by today's standards and they can't do it. That's on him as much as the rest of the components on offense (coaching, skill positions, line, etc.).

 

[Bowser]

Sure, I agree with you and I think I've been pretty consistent in saying it's not all on him.

[snip]

It's got to be wearing on the confidence of both Mac and the rest of the team that they continually fail in close and late situations.

In Mac's defense, he's been handed the keys to a pop gun offense. Part of its limitations are his limitations, but it's not all on him. As a result, not every failure can be attributed to an individual player or coach. Some are due to the aggregate weaknesses of the entire operation, how it has very limited avenues for success. Opposing defenses sit on the five things our offense can do reliably well, making it much more difficult for WRs to get separation, or for the OL to create a pocket, or for Mac to make the right read. At the moment, we're worse than the sum of our weaknesses.

Mac is, unfortunately, held to a very high standard. I can't help but think that Brady converts at least one of those 4th quarter opportunities against the Eagles. Not prime Brady. Not 46 year old Brady if he were actually playing this season. But the Brady who might have walked out of Kraft's box and thrown on a uniform. That Brady beats the Eagles. And the Fins, too.

 

[BaseballJones]

Agreed. At some point he/they have to win these games. I keep telling myself we're due for one of these to go our way but then again they went our way almost every single time for 20 years so maybe we have a ways to go.

I think the 25 point statistic is the biggest stain on the resume, not the game winning drives or comebacks. Overall, it's the offense's job to put up points and 25 isn't really all that much by today's standards and they can't do it. That's on him as much as the rest of the components on offense (coaching, skill positions, line, etc.).

NFL teams this year are averaging (including defensive and special teams scores) a whopping 22.7 points a game.

 

[Cellar-Door]

NFL teams this year are averaging (including defensive and special teams scores) a whopping 22.7 points a game.

It's not all on the QB, but most years about half of all team scores are 24 or higher (exactly half this year). So going 0-13 when your opponent makes it to that number is concerning for an offense as a whole. If you can't win when your opponent gets to basically average scoring.... you're not likely to be a very good team.

 

[pjheff]

People of a certain age might be reminded of the talk surrounding Bledsoe in his final New England years. "His OL stinks, he's taken tons of hits, he's got a pin in his finger, rebuild the OL and he'll be fine," etc etc etc. Shockingly reminiscent of the Mac talk these days, honestly. Blaming everyone but the QB for struggling.

And then Brady replaced Bledsoe and we all went, "Oh."

I am hoping that is not the case of Mac.

Two questions:

1) Would we consider Bledsoe’s level of performance a disappointing outcome for Mac?

2) Is there anyone on the offensive unit playing his position better than Mac is playing his?

 

[SMU_Sox]

Two questions:

1) Would we consider Bledsoe’s level of performance a disappointing outcome for Mac?

2) Is there anyone on the offensive unit playing his position better than Mac is playing his?

1) 4 time pro-bowler, 1 time NFL passing yards leader, w owner, check, check, and check. Sure. I would be happy with that outcome. Completely different style of player but that doesn't impact the answer.

2) Not sure but I will say Hunter Henry has been playing well so far. He's the closest.

Edit: winery Vs whinery

 

[EvilEmpire]

And then Brady replaced Bledsoe and we all went, "Oh."

I am hoping that is not the case of Mac.

I sure as hell hope not too.

I reallly don't want the Patriots to find another guy like Brady to replace Mac with.

 

[Deathofthebambino]

People of a certain age might be reminded of the talk surrounding Bledsoe in his final New England years. "His OL stinks, he's taken tons of hits, he's got a pin in his finger, rebuild the OL and he'll be fine," etc etc etc. Shockingly reminiscent of the Mac talk these days, honestly. Blaming everyone but the QB for struggling.

And then Brady replaced Bledsoe and we all went, "Oh."

I am hoping that is not the case of Mac.

People of a certain age might remember a guy named Matt Cassel having the best year of his life because he took over a team with a top 10 defense, Randy Moss, Wes Welker, Kevin Faulk, and a great offensive line that got the running game 4.4ypc.

If people don't believe Mac would succeed if given that opportunity, we aren't watching the same thing. If Cassel is qb of this team, the Pats would have a shot at the lowest scoring offense in NFL history.

 

[BaseballJones]

What KC did with Smith/Mahomes was crazy, really. His four years with KC:

11-4, 8-7, 11-5, 11-4 (41-20, .672)

64.5%, 13,566 yds, 76 td, 28 int, 92.2 rating (solid)

Led KC to three trips to the playoffs, where he struggled to win, but here were the games:

Loss to Indy, 45-44.
Loss to NE, 27-20.
Loss to Pit, 18-16.

So really close, but no cigar other than one win against Houston, 30-0. They had talent, and Smith was a fine NFL quarterback. But they STILL traded up to draft Mahomes in the first round, despite having a guy who was, by basically every measure, a solid NFL quarterback who they'd had considerable success with.

Then in 2017, Smith still started while Mahomes sat and learned, and KC went 10-6 and lost in the playoffs 22-21 to Tennessee. And then at that point, KC made the move, jettisoning Smith and going with Mahomes. And the rest is history.

I'm getting closer to the point where I think that even though their biggest, most obvious immediate needs might be WR and OL, I am thinking trade up to get one of the elite QBs in this next draft, EVEN IF THEY PLAN ON STARTING MAC IN 2024. And try for the Smith/Mahomes situation.

 

[Kenny F'ing Powers]

A huge reason why the OL was seen as terrible is that Bledsoe was a statue and held the ball much too long to boot. Drop back, pat pat pat boom with the sack.

Mac unloads the ball quickly which is a good sign.

I dunno, man. Bledsoe was a statue, but Mac has one of the fastest times to release in the league. This line fucking STINKS right now. I might take Light, Compton, Woody, and Andruzzi over any of the current linemen we have. And I'd take Troy Brown over any WR we currently have.

 

[lexrageorge]

The Pats did make upgrades at both OL and WR between the 2000 and 2001 season. Pats brought in Mike Compton, allowing them to move Andruzzi to the right, and drafted Matt Light (insert guffaws at Ron Borges here) to replace the totally washed Bruce Armstrong at LT. The 2000 Pats had literally no receivers after Troy Brown and the unreliable and inconsistentTerry Glenn. They signed Dave Patten, and by bringing in Antowain Smith, they were able to move Kevin Faulk and JR Redmond into the 3rd down back roles to which they were more suited.

I still say the line play against Miami was so bad that no QB would do well last Sunday. I mean, it was worst line in the league awful by the eye test. I'm convinced Mac threw the INT because he was in shock he actually had a clean pocket for 3 seconds (OK, not really, but you get the idea). I expect that the line play will improve only because it has one direction to go; after all, the line did play better against the Eagles. Whether it becomes good or not is hard to say. If it doesn't improve from the Miami game then this team is looking at 2 or 3 win season tops; 5 or 6 if Mahomes were to magically become New England's QB. It was really that bad.

 

[Gash Prex]

There is no alternate world in which Drew Bledsoe would reach 19 mph on a QB scramble.

View: https://twitter.com/NextGenStats/status/1703600072708214894


Mac is no Lamar - but he definitely has some speed. His throws on the run and scrambling were on target last week

 

[azsoxpatsfan]

I dunno, man. Bledsoe was a statue, but Mac has one of the fastest times to release in the league. This line fucking STINKS right now. I might take Light, Compton, Woody, and Andruzzi over any of the current linemen we have. And I'd take Troy Brown over any WR we currently have.

Where do you find QB release times? I’m finding some lists but nothing that I really trust as accurate without the SoSH stamp of approval

 

[SMU_Sox]

Where do you find QB release times? I’m finding some lists but nothing that I really trust as accurate without the SoSH stamp of approval

PFF has it.

Tua btw was 1.98 time to throw vs the Pats. Insane.

 

[Eddie Jurak]

I certainly think this line of reasoning has merit, but at the same time Brady wasn't asked to do too much that rookie year IIRC. At least, compared to what QBs today are asked to do. I think bottom line, and I think Ive mentioned it elsewhere, is that I dont think Mac's ceiling is someone who can consistently carry a team and make the sum greater than its parts. That said, I think a number of things somewhat outside his control are not helping him reach his ceiling.

Brady, though, started 14 games in the regular season and went 11-3. Those wins included:

• A 29-26 OT win against SD where the Pats came back from a 10-point 4th quarter deficit with Brady leading 3 scoring drives.
• A 17-16 win against the Jets where the Pats trailed 16-7 midway through the third quarter. Brady led an 11 play FG drive in the 4th to put the Pats ahead in which he completed 6-7 passes for 56 yards.
• A 12-9 OT win against the Bills where the Bills led 9-6 with 6 minutes to go in the 4th. Brady led a 6 play FG drive in which he completed 3-4 passes for 52 yards in the 4th to tie, failed to score on a 2-minute drive that would have won it, then led an 8 play FG drive in OT (3-3, 34 yards) to win.

Then he led 2 late wins in the playoffs.

The issue with Mac is that we've seen him have plenty of drives such as 6-7 for 56. We've almost never seen him do it with the game on the line. In 33 starts (16 wins), Mac has one game where he brought the team back in the 4th quarter. In a 25-22 win against the Texans, the Pats trailed 22-15 in the 4th, and Mac led a tying TD drive and a winning FG drive. The TD drive was an 8 play drive where Mac went 2-2 for 23 yards and a TD, the FG drive was a 17 play drive where Mac went 3-5 for 37 yards and was bailed out with a roughing the passer call.

The point here is that Mac should be doing this as often as Brady does. It is that Mac has had plenty of chances and all but once has come up short.

At some point he has to succeed at least occasionally, even if the team around him is not great.

 

[tims4wins]

That Jets game was 16-0 (13-0?) at halftime. “What a party!”

Edit: for fun

View: https://youtu.be/JFzNhMs8VZw?si=U4C20BoABE9_5fnF&t=1458

 

[jezza1918]

Brady, though, started 14 games in the regular season and went 11-3. Those wins included:

• A 29-26 OT win against SD where the Pats came back from a 10-point 4th quarter deficit with Brady leading 3 scoring drives.
• A 17-16 win against the Jets where the Pats trailed 16-7 midway through the third quarter. Brady led an 11 play FG drive in the 4th to put the Pats ahead in which he completed 6-7 passes for 56 yards.
• A 12-9 OT win against the Bills where the Bills led 9-6 with 6 minutes to go in the 4th. Brady led a 6 play FG drive in which he completed 3-4 passes for 52 yards in the 4th to tie, failed to score on a 2-minute drive that would have won it, then led an 8 play FG drive in OT (3-3, 34 yards) to win.

Then he led 2 late wins in the playoffs.

The issue with Mac is that we've seen him have plenty of drives such as 6-7 for 56. We've almost never seen him do it with the game on the line. In 33 starts (16 wins), Mac has one game where he brought the team back in the 4th quarter. In a 25-22 win against the Texans, the Pats trailed 22-15 in the 4th, and Mac led a tying TD drive and a winning FG drive. The TD drive was an 8 play drive where Mac went 2-2 for 23 yards and a TD, the FG drive was a 17 play drive where Mac went 3-5 for 37 yards and was bailed out with a roughing the passer call.

The point here is that Mac should be doing this as often as Brady does. It is that Mac has had plenty of chances and all but once has come up short.

At some point he has to succeed at least occasionally, even if the team around him is not great.

Totally agree with your conclusion. In a weird way I think the argument you made supports both sides somewhat - because in only one of those games did Brady lead the offense to the vaunted 25+ points territory mac struggles with - which was one of my major points. Brady was 20-28 for 213 yards with no tds and no ints in that jets game, 19-35 for 237 no tds and 1 int in the bills game…I just don’t think they’d even be in position for comeback wins in todays nfl with those numbers. But at the same time, he did come through in clutch routinely, while we’ve rarely seen Mac do it.

 

[Super Nomario]

What KC did with Smith/Mahomes was crazy, really. His four years with KC:

11-4, 8-7, 11-5, 11-4 (41-20, .672)

64.5%, 13,566 yds, 76 td, 28 int, 92.2 rating (solid)

Led KC to three trips to the playoffs, where he struggled to win, but here were the games:

Loss to Indy, 45-44.
Loss to NE, 27-20.
Loss to Pit, 18-16.

So really close, but no cigar other than one win against Houston, 30-0. They had talent, and Smith was a fine NFL quarterback. But they STILL traded up to draft Mahomes in the first round, despite having a guy who was, by basically every measure, a solid NFL quarterback who they'd had considerable success with.

Then in 2017, Smith still started while Mahomes sat and learned, and KC went 10-6 and lost in the playoffs 22-21 to Tennessee. And then at that point, KC made the move, jettisoning Smith and going with Mahomes. And the rest is history.

I'm getting closer to the point where I think that even though their biggest, most obvious immediate needs might be WR and OL, I am thinking trade up to get one of the elite QBs in this next draft, EVEN IF THEY PLAN ON STARTING MAC IN 2024. And try for the Smith/Mahomes situation.

Those KC teams were good, as you note. The Chiefs dropped Mahomes into a great situation. These Patriots are middling. We'd be dropping a new quarterback into, at best, a mediocre situation offensively - and probably using two first round picks in the process, further impairing our ability to build it out.

 

[Jungleland]

There is no alternate world in which Drew Bledsoe would reach 19 mph on a QB scramble.

View: https://twitter.com/NextGenStats/status/1703600072708214894


Mac is no Lamar - but he definitely has some speed. His throws on the run and scrambling were on target last week

Watching that play I couldn't help but think that in time that could or should be a bigger part of his game. Obviously short of Fields/LJ speed we're all going to prefer a QB who doesn't tuck and run at the first sign of danger, but his couple of runs this year have made it seem he's quick enough to pick up some safe yards when there are none through the air. It's not at the top of the list of what I'd like to see him work on, but I'm glad there's a little bit of potential there to extend plays with his legs.

 

[Eddie Jurak]

If I want to be optimistic about Mac, I point to 2 things.

• Red zone TD%: Last year the Pats were at the bottom of the league (42%). This year they are top 6 (71%). All 4 of Mac's TD passes are in the red zone and account for 4 of the 5 red zone TDs.
• Pressure: Mac has been good under pressure (top 6 according to Evan Lazar)

If those are real, they suggest he'll eventually have some late game success. I think either Mac's late game performance will catch up to those stats or those stats will decline.

 

[BaseballJones]

Those KC teams were good, as you note. The Chiefs dropped Mahomes into a great situation. These Patriots are middling. We'd be dropping a new quarterback into, at best, a mediocre situation offensively - and probably using two first round picks in the process, further impairing our ability to build it out.

I agree. But I’m just thinking about the QB position and taking a chance - even when you have a competent NFL QB - on someone potentially much, much better.

 

[Deathofthebambino]

Brady, though, started 14 games in the regular season and went 11-3. Those wins included:

• A 29-26 OT win against SD where the Pats came back from a 10-point 4th quarter deficit with Brady leading 3 scoring drives.
• A 17-16 win against the Jets where the Pats trailed 16-7 midway through the third quarter. Brady led an 11 play FG drive in the 4th to put the Pats ahead in which he completed 6-7 passes for 56 yards.
• A 12-9 OT win against the Bills where the Bills led 9-6 with 6 minutes to go in the 4th. Brady led a 6 play FG drive in which he completed 3-4 passes for 52 yards in the 4th to tie, failed to score on a 2-minute drive that would have won it, then led an 8 play FG drive in OT (3-3, 34 yards) to win.

Then he led 2 late wins in the playoffs.

The issue with Mac is that we've seen him have plenty of drives such as 6-7 for 56. We've almost never seen him do it with the game on the line. In 33 starts (16 wins), Mac has one game where he brought the team back in the 4th quarter. In a 25-22 win against the Texans, the Pats trailed 22-15 in the 4th, and Mac led a tying TD drive and a winning FG drive. The TD drive was an 8 play drive where Mac went 2-2 for 23 yards and a TD, the FG drive was a 17 play drive where Mac went 3-5 for 37 yards and was bailed out with a roughing the passer call.

The point here is that Mac should be doing this as often as Brady does. It is that Mac has had plenty of chances and all but once has come up short.

At some point he has to succeed at least occasionally, even if the team around him is not great.

This stuff is driving me nuts.

Does this happen to Brady's teams?

In Mac's first ever game as an NFL player, the Pats were down 17-16 with 8:00 to go. He completed two passes (on 2 attempts) and got them down to 2nd and 5 at the Miami 22. He then hit Jonnu Smith for an 11 yard gain, first down at the Miami 11 with 3:35 to go. Let me reiterate, they were down 17-16. Damien Harris fumbled, and they never got a chance to kick the field goal to win.

In week 4, Mac went 3-5 down by 2 with under 2 minutes to go for 23 yards, and got another 20 yards on a DPI. Nick Folk missed a 56 yarder to win the game.

The following week, Mac hit Kendrick Bourne against Dallas with a 75 yard touchdown to take a 29-26 lead with 2:11 left. The FUCKING defense then gave up a 24 yard pass to CeeDee Lamb on THIRD AND 25 to get Dallas a shot at a 49 yard field goal, they made it, the Pats lost in overtime.



That is literally the first 5 games of Mac's NFL career where he put the team in a position to win, and the "team" couldn't do it. I don't even want to keep going and get to the Rham fumble, the Meyers pass back to Mac, week one this year where Bourne drops a third down dime, and Boutte can't stay in on 4th down and BB doesn't kick a field goal...There are examples of this all over the place.

Are their games where Mac didn't get it done. Absofuckinglutely, but the idea that he hasn't put them into a position to win is just nonsense. He can't play all 11 positions.

 

[Over Guapo Grande]

This stuff is driving me nuts.

Does this happen to Brady's teams?

In Mac's first ever game as an NFL player, the Pats were down 17-16 with 8:00 to go. He completed two passes (on 2 attempts) and got them down to 2nd and 5 at the Miami 22. He then hit Jonnu Smith for an 11 yard gain, first down at the Miami 11 with 3:35 to go. Let me reiterate, they were down 17-16. Damien Harris fumbled, and they never got a chance to kick the field goal to win.

In week 4, Mac went 3-5 down by 2 with under 2 minutes to go for 23 yards, and got another 20 yards on a DPI. Nick Folk missed a 56 yarder to win the game.

The following week, Mac hit Kendrick Bourne against Dallas with a 75 yard touchdown to take a 29-26 lead with 2:11 left. The FUCKING defense then gave up a 24 yard pass to CeeDee Lamb on THIRD AND 25 to get Dallas a shot at a 49 yard field goal, they made it, the Pats lost in overtime.



That is literally the first 5 games of Mac's NFL career where he put the team in a position to win, and the "team" couldn't do it. I don't even want to keep going and get to the Rham fumble, the Meyers pass back to Mac, week one this year where Bourne drops a third down dime, and Boutte can't stay in on 4th down and BB doesn't kick a field goal...There are examples of this all over the place.

Are their games where Mac didn't get it done. Absofuckinglutely, but the idea that he hasn't put them into a position to win is just nonsense. He can't play all 11 positions.

As I said- garbage stats. Thank you.

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

I get what you are saying, Death, but the fact remains is that while some of those games haven't come down to all him, he's still never once done it. Not once.

Miami game first game of his career, I'll give you. Sure. That was on Harris and the defense.

Look at the Game 4 against Tampa, though: yes, Folk missed the FG, but at the same time perhaps getting closer than a 56 yard attempt in the rain would have helped. On Mac? I dunno.

If it's not all on him, I would think that the odds would even out and just once he'd be able to lead a GW drive. It's three years in and it hasn't happened. It might be unfair but it is what it is. 13 attempts, 11 attempts, it doesn't really matter. It just hasn't happened. He's had 2 chances this year and it hasn't happened either.

 

[Deathofthebambino]

As I said- garbage stats. Thank you.

I think you're doing a disservice to garbage with that description.

These stats are fucking useless piles of shit without context.

 

[Deathofthebambino]

I get what you are saying, Death, but the fact remains is that while some of those games haven't come down to all him, he's still never once done it. Not once.

Look at the Game 4 against Tampa: yes, Folk missed the FG, but at the same time perhaps getting closer than a 56 yard attempt in the rain would have helped. On Mac? I dunno.

If it's not all on him, I would think that the odds would even out and just once he'd be able to lead a GW drive. It's three years in and it hasn't happened. It might be unfair but it is what it is.

Do we remember why he didn't get them further down the field in the rain that day? I don't, but I'm sure there's video of it. Was it a bad pass, a drop, a jail break on the line and he had to get rid of it?

I mean, look at the 4th down play the other night. Mac is under pressure before his back foot even hits the ground, he's got no receivers looking at him at the moment, and the only place he can go is short of the sticks off his back foot. Look at the scramble play above posted by @Gash Prex Forget what Mac did on the play, forget his speed. Look at the offensive line let two guys run through clean, before Mac even has a chance to let the two outlet receivers get into their routes underneath. Tom Brady would have immediately tossed that ball into the ground or into the stands to get rid of it. And Mac still got them into a position to score points and take the lead.

He cannot do it all, and if Bourne catches a pass, if his defense doesn't give up 24 on third and 25, if Rham doesn't fumble, if Meyers doesn't try to throw it backwards, if Folks makes a kick, they win at least one, and maybe all of those games, and these fucking stats and statements would never be uttered again.

Instead of making plays like Edelman picking one up off the turf in the Super Bowl, or Vinatieri hitting a 45 yarder in a blizzard, or Malcolm Butler making a pick in the end zone, or Troy Brown returning a blocked field goal to the house or Ty Law making a pick six in the SB, or Vinateiri making a 48 yarder to win, and on and on and on...

Tom Brady had guys step up all the time which resulted in win after win after win. Instead of making those plays, Mac's teammates are fucking duffing them all the time, and I'm not even getting into the fucking shit show of an offensive line he's been and still is playing with.

 

[Over Guapo Grande]

I think you're doing a disservice to garbage with that description.

These stats are fucking useless piles of shit without context.

I have known useless piles of shit, sir. And let me tell you, these are not even close to measuring up to them

 

[Deathofthebambino]

I mean, this conversation is like saying if a pitcher has an ERA of 3.50, and goes 0-16, he's fucking terrible, when his team gives him 1.0 in run support per game.

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

Death, I don't remember, unfortunately. 2 years ago might as well be a decade at this point.

You aren't wrong in noting that Mac needs help from his teammates. You aren't wrong in noting that the OL has been crap this year. I tend to look at things from a results standpoint and the results have been immensely disappointing.

It's probably worth talking about the level of help Mac would need to be a successful QB; obviously Brady being so great meant that he didn't need as much help. If Mac needs immense amounts of help from his teammates, there's probably a point that comes where he just would need too much help to be an effective and wining QB. That's probably another discussion for the future.

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

I mean, this conversation is like saying if a pitcher has an ERA of 3.50, and goes 0-16, he's fucking terrible, when his team gives him 1.0 in run support per game.

I think the issue is that we are essentially arguing about Mac's ERA, or FIP if his defense/OL has been poor. That's the entire issue.

Apropos of nothing, Zack Grienke is 1-15 with a positive WAR this year.

 

[Fishercat]

I'm mostly curious on the group think on this one - is there a QB drafted since Mac Jones was taken (or after) that you think would be winning these games or seeing results with the tools Jones has where the losses turn to wins with regular frequency? No right or wrong answer on this, I am thinking an actual discussion. Like, I think Lawrence could, Fields coaching in Chicago is SO weird that I have no idea, Lance and Wilson feel like clear nos. Purdy has been exceptional and I have to imagine he'd do well. Ridder and Howell? I'd be interested only because I think the "bar" is illuminating to if it makes sense to move on or not in the next year or two if things don't show a turnaround. Like if we thought that Lawrence and Purdy alone represent the type of QB who can do it vs. 4-6 guys, it may be a different thought in my head.

I'm more sympathetic to DOTB's viewpoint on Mac just because I feel like the NFL road is riddled with QBs who were draft busts that consistently came out of terrible coaching systems or teams with poor support but both sides have some runway on this in my view.

 

[Dogman]

Immense help? I read you as essentially blaming Mac for his teammates not doing the fundamentals of their job. A missed FG, a dropped pass, not getting two feet down, defense giving up looooonnnggg 3rd down completions. These things are the basis for winning and, as DoTB points out, happened regularly when Brady was the QB. If his teammates simply do their job, the results look very different.