The Michael McCorkle "Mac" Jones Thread

joe dokes

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I suppose the cool kids would ban him from the good lunch table if Howe wrote, "There never was a QB controversy......."
 

NickEsasky

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I suppose the cool kids would ban him from the good lunch table if Howe wrote, "There never was a QB controversy......."
Much like Reiss, Howe always played it straight and got himself a nice national gig for his troubles. I doubt he cares much about the cool kids table full of hot takers.
 

steveluck7

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Zappe has played more than well enough in Macs absence so there is no need to bring Mac back until he is 100%.
We’re past the point where we question if an 85% Jones is preferable to Zappe. If Mac’s not completely healthy, you wait, especially with a short week coming up.
 

FL4WL3SS

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I think that's sort of the problem, if you don't bring him back this week, it's really hard to instill him on a short week if Zappe plays well again. So you're looking at another 2 game absence and at that point if Zappe is playing well it will be really hard to switch QBs. I think it's either now or never.
 

Gash Prex

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Howe is a straight shooter with good sources. Mac will be back as the starter this week unless he has a setback from an injury standpoint.
 

Van Everyman

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Howe is a straight shooter with good sources. Mac will be back as the starter this week unless he has a setback from an injury standpoint.
Or if they just feel like it's worth playing it safe. I actually put Mac's odds of starting against the Bears at 50-50, maybe a bit less.
 

rodderick

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Do you guys think there's any consideration made about Mac coming back in a home game? Bill doesn't strike me as the type of coach to care about this stuff, but if the first half ends and the score is something like 7-3, you just know a three and out in their first possession after the half is going to bring out the boos and the Zappe chants.
 

BaseballJones

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Chicago's defense is solid - not elite, but solid. #11 in points allowed, #16 in yards allowed. The good news for the Pats is that their rush defense is weak, allowing 4.8 yards per carry, and a next-to-worst 978 rush yards total so far. So expect a heavy dose of Rhamondre no matter who is playing QB.
 

tims4wins

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Chicago's defense is solid - not elite, but solid. #11 in points allowed, #16 in yards allowed. The good news for the Pats is that their rush defense is weak, allowing 4.8 yards per carry, and a next-to-worst 978 rush yards total so far. So expect a heavy dose of Rhamondre no matter who is playing QB.
Plus it looks like rain in the forecast.
 

Jimbodandy

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Chicago's defense is solid - not elite, but solid. #11 in points allowed, #16 in yards allowed. The good news for the Pats is that their rush defense is weak, allowing 4.8 yards per carry, and a next-to-worst 978 rush yards total so far. So expect a heavy dose of Rhamondre no matter who is playing QB.
A heavy dose of Rham is also great opportunity for believable play action, rain notwithstanding.
 

Bowser

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Mac's familiarity with Eberflus' rotating zone defense might point toward his starting Monday night. From Lazar's preview:

"In the matchup last season, Patriots quarterback Mac Jones struggled against the rotating zone structures through the first three quarters. The Colts intercepted two passes, and Jones only averaged 6.8 yards per pass attempt and lost 6.55 expected points added. As a result, New England trailed 20-0 heading into the fourth quarter. Eventually, Jones began to figure out Indianapolis's game plan, throwing for 142 passing yards and two touchdowns in the fourth quarter. It was too little too late that night, but with another battle against Eberflus this week, the Patriots can build on that success."
 

Ralphwiggum

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In terms of Mac being 100% or whatever, I'd guess that at this stage few players are 100% and it’s just a matter of how much the ankle will limit his effectiveness. Otherwise, not surprising in the least that Mac got his job back. I've enjoyed the Zappe era but the team needs to figure out if Mac is the solution long-term, this year was supposed to be about that.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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There may not be a QB controversy with the Patriots but it already feels like there is with the fans.

I know people here are hedging because you cannot unsee what we've witnessed over the past few decades but those who are in the "Zappe may be the guy but Mac definitely isn't" camp cannot help but show their true colors. There are likely plenty more of you beyond this forum too.

As much as I find it lame, its hard to disagree with the speculation that we'll see a very vocal fanbase at almost the first signs that Mac is struggling. Heck, even if he does ok we will likely have calls for moar Zappe.
 

brandonchristensen

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If he throws some boneheaded picks again - what do you do? BB benches running backs after fumbling (or Bourne for seemingly no reason)...
 

BaseballJones

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Depends. If he's thrown for 320 yards and 3 td and the Pats are up 28-6 in the fourth and he throws a dumb pick with 10:17 to go, he won't get benched. But if it's middle of the second quarter and Chicago is up 13-3 because Mac has thrown two awful picks, yeah, he might.
 

cshea

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Bill will do what's best for the team. If it gets to a point where he feels Zappe gives them a better chance to win, then Zappe will play. Where that point is, only Bill knows. We never reached it with Cam, but that could be more of an indictment on Stidham. Who knows.
 

Eddie Jurak

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If he keeps turning the ball over, Bill will absolutely make the switch.
"Keeps turning the ball over."

In 20 games, Mac has 22 turnovers: 18 interceptions and 4 fumbles lost (out of 8 funbles total).

In almost 3 games, Zappe has 3 turnovers: 1 interception and 2 fumbles lost (out of 3 fumbles total).

They are about the same, turnover-wise.
 

RorschachsMask

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"Keeps turning the ball over."

In 20 games, Mac has 22 turnovers: 18 interceptions and 4 fumbles lost (out of 8 funbles total).

In almost 3 games, Zappe has 3 turnovers: 1 interception and 2 fumbles lost (out of 3 fumbles total).

They are about the same, turnover-wise.
If Mac takes care of the ball closer to the way he did last season, it won’t be an issue. If Mac turns it over like he did the first few weeks this season? Yeah, he will get replaced.

I don’t think that will be the case though.
 

JOBU

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Bill will do what's best for the team. If it gets to a point where he feels Zappe gives them a better chance to win, then Zappe will play. Where that point is, only Bill knows. We never reached it with Cam, but that could be more of an indictment on Stidham. Who knows.
Absolutely. That’s what Mr Kraft is paying him to do.

View: https://youtu.be/M8DeHg742cM
 

SMU_Sox

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Mac's familiarity with Eberflus' rotating zone defense might point toward his starting Monday night. From Lazar's preview:

"In the matchup last season, Patriots quarterback Mac Jones struggled against the rotating zone structures through the first three quarters. The Colts intercepted two passes, and Jones only averaged 6.8 yards per pass attempt and lost 6.55 expected points added. As a result, New England trailed 20-0 heading into the fourth quarter. Eventually, Jones began to figure out Indianapolis's game plan, throwing for 142 passing yards and two touchdowns in the fourth quarter. It was too little too late that night, but with another battle against Eberflus this week, the Patriots can build on that success."
I finished my rewatch of the Browns game last night. They did not rotate coverages much at all. Very vanilla on the back end. They gambled with blitzes but the line picked up the pressure well minus Wynn who is really struggling right now. Just for some context.
 

Jimbodandy

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In a vacuum, totally agree. I think the offense looks better with him in there. I think it's the right call to stick Mac in there though, he's either going to sink or swim and both scenarios are good. Either way it'll put an end to the QB controversy talk.
Regarding the bolded, ok I laughed.
 

Cellar-Door

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"Keeps turning the ball over."

In 20 games, Mac has 22 turnovers: 18 interceptions and 4 fumbles lost (out of 8 funbles total).

In almost 3 games, Zappe has 3 turnovers: 1 interception and 2 fumbles lost (out of 3 fumbles total).

They are about the same, turnover-wise.
Yeah they have almost identical numbers (I'm not giving or taking credit for fumble luck so using fumbles plus INT)
However this season... in the same number of games as Zappe Mac is averaging 2 INT+FMB per game, that I assume is what is being referenced, the difference between 1.3 and 2 is pretty big.
 

lexrageorge

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If he throws some boneheaded picks again - what do you do? BB benches running backs after fumbling (or Bourne for seemingly no reason)...
Not sure if this is serious or not, but:

- The reality is that changing RB's in a game is much easier than changing QB's.

- The Pats emphasis on ball security by their running backs has been so successful that the 538 folks were at one point convinced the Pats were "cheating" somehow.

- Not all picks are the fault of the QB.

- If Mac keeps throwing bad INT's, he will indeed get benched.
 

DJnVa

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Yeah they have almost identical numbers (I'm not giving or taking credit for fumble luck so using fumbles plus INT)
However this season... in the same number of games as Zappe Mac is averaging 2 INT+FMB per game, that I assume is what is being referenced, the difference between 1.3 and 2 is pretty big.
Yes, but it was a different offense playing against better teams. It's more than raw numbers.

And the Zappe side of this has been "BB has done it before, if he thinks Zappe is the better answer he'll do it again!" Well, it *seems* we have that answer.

DISCLAIMER because this topic sometimes goes off the rails: I'm not related to either dude. I want the team I support to win. That's all.
 

Cellar-Door

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Yes, but it was a different offense playing against better teams. It's more than raw numbers.

And the Zappe side of this has been "BB has done it before, if he thinks Zappe is the better answer he'll do it again!" Well, it *seems* we have that answer.

DISCLAIMER because this topic sometimes goes off the rails: I'm not related to either dude. I want the team I support to win. That's all.
Oh I think Mac is the better QB and should start, I was just noting that he HAS been turning the ball over a lot (and some trackers think he's actually been lucky on INT throws) and so the poster saying if he "keeps turning it over" Bill will have a decision is probably right. Offfense and opponent matter, but at the same time Mac's performance was still bad and taking care of the ball was a significant problem.
 

FL4WL3SS

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If Mac takes care of the ball closer to the way he did last season, it won’t be an issue. If Mac turns it over like he did the first few weeks this season? Yeah, he will get replaced.

I don’t think that will be the case though.
It's not just the first few weeks this season though. Mac's line in his last 9 games:

Wins: 2
Losses: 7
Comp%: 62.5%
TD: 10
Int: 12
QBR: 69.9

He's been not good for over half a seasons worth of games. I don't know why nobody is acknowledging this.
 

lexrageorge

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It's not just the first few weeks this season though. Mac's line in his last 9 games:

Wins: 2
Losses: 7
Comp%: 62.5%
TD: 10
Int: 12
QBR: 69.9

He's been not good for over half a seasons worth of games. I don't know why nobody is acknowledging this.
Because last season has less relevance now that Mac is in his 2nd year.
 

FL4WL3SS

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Because last season has less relevance now that Mac is in his 2nd year.
If this is the case, then we can't also point to his body of work in the first half of the season to discuss how good he is then can we?

He hasn't shown much in quite a while. I'm not sure how long the leash is, but if he shows some improvement over the next few games it should at least buy him the remainder of the season.
 

jezza1918

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The fun, and annoying, thing about stats is you can parse them out in so many different ways to fit whatever narrative you want. Im looking at it this way:
1. Mac's entire body of work his rookie year lead him to finish 2nd in offensive ROY and voted a top 100 player by his peers (and sure, pro bowl...but whatever on that IMO)
2. the patriots are transitioning to a riskier type of offense & trying for bigger chunk plays (Id say in part because Bill saw enough in Mac in year 1 to lead this type of offense)
3. mac has shown not very good results in leading this type of offense
4. Zappe has 1 current game on his resume that looks very good, with the training wheels on (leading the offense to 22 points, 15 of which came on FGs, does not qualify as very good IMO)
5. Unless Bill is willing to reset the clock on transitioning to #2, Mac would really have to shit the bed the next stretch of games or play their way out of playoff contention to move to Zappe

Im not on team one or the other...because quite frankly if I were a betting man I don't think either is the guy that will lead the pats to being a prolonged stretch as a contender.
 

SMU_Sox

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If this is the case, then we can't also point to his body of work in the first half of the season to discuss how good he is then can we?

He hasn't shown much in quite a while. I'm not sure how long the leash is, but if he shows some improvement over the next few games it should at least buy him the remainder of the season.
Because 3 of those teams were the Bills,#1 defense, they played other very good defenses down the stretch and to start the year (injuries have decimated some of those teams by week 7). Because teams adjusted to Mac mid year and because he was operating in a new offense this year. There are a lot of reasons that he struggled in his last 7-11 games. He might continue to struggle going forward but there are also reasons he could logically pull out of it as he grows. He hasn’t played a ton of football in college or the NFL. He’s going from being conservative to being more aggressive. I think as shitty and annoying as it is to say we need to just be patient and wait. And the waaaaaaaaaaiting is the hardest part!

View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Mm2Br5OLPlQ
 

tims4wins

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With the caveat that all Tom Brady comparisons are dumb.

Tom Brady, first 9 starts 2001: 65.5% completions, 6.9 YPA, 16 TD, 7 INT, 203 YPG, 94.6 rating
Tom Brady, final 8 starts 2001: 61.9% completions, 6.6 YPA, 3 TD, 6 IN, 193 YPG, 74.6 rating

So you're saying he can't beat good teams? I don't know why "he played good defenses" is a good argument.
It's more that circumstances matter. Can't just say Bailey is better based on the stats from two starts.
 

FL4WL3SS

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With the caveat that all Tom Brady comparisons are dumb.

Tom Brady, first 9 starts 2001: 65.5% completions, 6.9 YPA, 16 TD, 7 INT, 203 YPG, 94.6 rating
Tom Brady, final 8 starts 2001: 61.9% completions, 6.6 YPA, 3 TD, 6 IN, 193 YPG, 74.6 rating



It's more that circumstances matter. Can't just say Bailey is better based on the stats from two starts.
Never said Bailey was better. I was making the standalone point that Mac hasn't been very good for 9 straight games.
 

tims4wins

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Never said Bailey was better. I was making the standalone point that Mac hasn't been very good for 9 straight games.
And I don't think anyone is arguing that he has played particularly well over the last 8 games (it's 8 games FYI, not 9 - they went from 9-4 last year to a 10-8 finish, so 5 games, plus 3 this year). I think people are trying to understand why that may have happened, and there is probably some rationalizing to a degree. He did a lot of really exciting and encouraging stuff in the Baltimore game, but it was basically completely offset by several really bad throws / decisions.
 

Bigdogx

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Boy if he goes out monday night and lays an egg.... He better be 100% healed, no injury excuses will be valid if he doesn't play well.

You got a guy that the entire team is playing well with and meshing with, and we are about to go and screw that up possibly, like it or not! Imo you ride the hot hand but oh well, we will see how it goes.
Imagine if Brady got put back on the bench in 01, i wonder what that alternative reality would look like, and how many championship if any the patriots would have.
 

5dice

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Boy if he goes out monday night and lays an egg.... He better be 100% healed, no injury excuses will be valid if he doesn't play well.

You got a guy that the entire team is playing well with and meshing with, and we are about to go and screw that up possibly, like it or not! Imo you ride the hot hand but oh well, we will see how it goes.
Imagine if Brady got put back on the bench in 01, i wonder what that alternative reality would look like, and how many championship if any the patriots would have.
Next caller please.
 

katnado

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Boy if he goes out monday night and lays an egg.... He better be 100% healed, no injury excuses will be valid if he doesn't play well.

You got a guy that the entire team is playing well with and meshing with, and we are about to go and screw that up possibly, like it or not! Imo you ride the hot hand but oh well, we will see how it goes.
Imagine if Brady got put back on the bench in 01, i wonder what that alternative reality would look like, and how many championship if any the patriots would have.
In the realm of hot EEI takes, this is up there. Just yikes.
 

Shelterdog

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And I don't think anyone is arguing that he has played particularly well over the last 8 games (it's 8 games FYI, not 9 - they went from 9-4 last year to a 10-8 finish, so 5 games, plus 3 this year). I think people are trying to understand why that may have happened, and there is probably some rationalizing to a degree. He did a lot of really exciting and encouraging stuff in the Baltimore game, but it was basically completely offset by several really bad throws / decisions.
He's including the playoff game. Not sure why you would start your nine game analysis right after a seven game winning streak ended but there you have it.
 

FL4WL3SS

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He's including the playoff game. Not sure why you would start your nine game analysis right after a seven game winning streak ended but there you have it.
Because he has sucked from that game forward, it's not some magic fuckery. I was pointing out the he's in a slump. I don't know why I'm taking so much heat for this and being called a troll.

I literally said, in multiple threads, the he should start when he comes back. I'm obviously hoping he turns it around, but he's been terrible for quite a few games in a row.
 

tims4wins

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He's including the playoff game. Not sure why you would start your nine game analysis right after a seven game winning streak ended but there you have it.
10-8 includes the playoff game.

Edit:

In the 6 losses he has taken over his last 8 starts, the D has given up (going backwards):
37
20
47
33
33
27

There are many different factors at play here.