The Unikornet

TripleOT

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In the Boston defensive scheme, the center has to contest the backside corner three. Maybe Rob Williams can effectively contest it, but no one else on that roster can. As long as Kornet turns around toward the basket quickly after the kontest, he will have a shot if a miss caroms back toward the shooter. If he jumps after the shooter leaves the floor, he won’t be susceptible to blow bys off the dribble.

It’s an interesting defensive technique against one of the most efficient and hard to defend shot.


BTW, I was wrong about Kornet. He can be an effective backup center for 12 minutes or so per game on a contender, as long as he plays with force and confidence. He’s good at setting the high pick, and his roll game is coming around. Defensively, he defends the rim with verticality. Good job by the Celtics identifying how his strengths could help this team.
 

benhogan

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BTW, I was wrong about Kornet. He can be an effective backup center for 12 minutes or so per game on a contender, as long as he plays with force and confidence. He’s good at setting the high pick, and his roll game is coming around. Defensively, he defends the rim with verticality. Good job by the Celtics identifying how his strengths could help this team.
Yea, not many saw Luke being THIS playable, right? BUT they did have him run with the first unit early in camp, so the Celtic brain trust at the very least had an inkling.

@Jimbodandy has it right, ride the lightening while we can

Brad is being rewarded for being patient this Summer. Expect he'll have more patience in the trade/buyout market and go with what he has into Feb'23. Then be opportunistic with Gallo's contract/TPEs. Obviously, he had identified both Kornet/Hauser early with their contract construction and not being dealt in the Brogdon cleanout. More plaudits to PBS
 

m0ckduck

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I’m a huge believer is overall “system” play across team sports. @benhogan just recently posted about why individuals ratings might not be the best way to evaluate a player because of that. And the value of Grant Williams for a contract and why it might be worth more to the Celtics than some other teams…

It just seems to me that this team
shows how much overall team construction leads to effectiveness, which the. leads back to how players are perceived.

Which I think is what you guys are getting at.
I think he was miscast on offense when he came into the league, shooting mostly corner threes at a pretty good clip and not doing much else. Now he's screening for the primary initiatior on offense or setting very good off-ball screens to get other shooters open. I think he's definitely stronger than when he came into the league, less afraid of playing under the basket, and that helps, but he also knows where to be at all times and is making an extraordinary effort to get his teammates open.
Wanted to come back to these points b/c I was listening to the Off The Pike podcast on Spotify and Brian Barrett and Brian Robb were running through the players who are outperforming expectations or last year's performance bar. Although they didn't frame it this way, the theme that kept coming up was: guys this year not trying to do too much, or not being asked to do too much, because the talent around them is so good. It came up in their evaluation of Smart (content to focus on his passing now because the shooters around him are so good), Tatum (able to exert more energy on defense now b/c the offense comes easier this year both for him and the team), but also Kornet. The way they described it, the team explicitly directed him to play more of a simplified "Rob Williams lite" role with emphasis on screening, putbacks and dunks, rather than the more elaborate "stretch 5 threat" that his prior teams wanted/needed out of him.
 

benhogan

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Kornet. The way they described it, the team explicitly directed him to play more of a simplified "Rob Williams lite" role with emphasis on screening, putbacks and dunks, rather than the more elaborate "stretch 5 threat" that his prior teams wanted/needed out of him.
Kornet needs to play stout drop Defense
then on Offense: screen, screen again, screen some more, eventually roll & reverse dunk

not really TL-lite more Baynes-ian :oops:

I'd keep rolling him out for 15 mpg. You never know, he may develop that top-of-the-key 3 that AB used to knock the 76ers out of the playoffs
 

Reverend

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When everyone was working on nicknames for Kornet—and, for that mattee, Hauser—I didn’t see anyone note that Williams had already attributed Marvel hero identities to the whole team last year.

Hawkeye for Hauser isn’t bad, but Kornet as Groot is fantastic.

View: https://twitter.com/NBCSCeltics/status/1506109821220704262

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https://thesportsrush.com/nba-news-jaylen-brown-is-black-panther-jayson-tatum-is-vision-im-spider-man-grant-williams-hilariously-assigns-a-marvel-character-to-each-member-of-the-boston-celtics/
 

Eddie Jurak

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Kornet hyperextended a knee yesterday. Looked ugly on film. Not sure how serious it was though he was obviously in pain when it happened.
 

Jed Zeppelin

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When everyone was working on nicknames for Kornet—and, for that mattee, Hauser—I didn’t see anyone note that Williams had already attributed Marvel hero identities to the whole team last year.

Hawkeye for Hauser isn’t bad, but Kornet as Groot is fantastic.

View: https://twitter.com/NBCSCeltics/status/1506109821220704262

View attachment 58375
View attachment 58376
https://thesportsrush.com/nba-news-jaylen-brown-is-black-panther-jayson-tatum-is-vision-im-spider-man-grant-williams-hilariously-assigns-a-marvel-character-to-each-member-of-the-boston-celtics/
Nesmith as Drax is too perfect. Also would have accepted Juggernaut.
 

JM3

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View attachment 58272
I’m surprised this thread has had 135 responses with no discussion of “the Kornet contest”.
Just saw this image on Reddit which gives a good perspective on what it looks like from the shooter’s perspective. It’s an interesting innovation but one thing that is unclear is how effective it has been.
Scal swears that it’s rarely failed, and some guy on Reddit claims that only 3 of 15 attempts against it have succeeded. Seems like more attempts have probably been tried, but subjectively it has felt that it’s been largely effective.
I just watched a random TikTok where they said shooters were now 5 for 18 from 3 against the eclipse.

I should have known there would already be posts on this lol.
 

benhogan

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I just watched a random TikTok where they said shooters were now 5 for 18 from 3 against the eclipse.

I should have known there would already be posts on this lol.
Mark Jackson and JVG think it's a joke/gimmick. That's good enough for me, must work
 

BaseballJones

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View attachment 58272
I’m surprised this thread has had 135 responses with no discussion of “the Kornet contest”.
Just saw this image on Reddit which gives a good perspective on what it looks like from the shooter’s perspective. It’s an interesting innovation but one thing that is unclear is how effective it has been.
Scal swears that it’s rarely failed, and some guy on Reddit claims that only 3 of 15 attempts against it have succeeded. Seems like more attempts have probably been tried, but subjectively it has felt that it’s been largely effective.
I mean, if you draw a line from the shooter's eyes to the rim, the hoop is basically completely blocked by Kornet. These guys are amazing shooters, but obviously it's harder to shoot when you can't see the rim than when you can. It would make sense to me that it has SOME effect.
 

DavidTai

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I mean, if you draw a line from the shooter's eyes to the rim, the hoop is basically completely blocked by Kornet. These guys are amazing shooters, but obviously it's harder to shoot when you can't see the rim than when you can. It would make sense to me that it has SOME effect.
It might have some effect, but there's also a nagging suspicion I have that the way the Celtics play defense, the -worst- three point shooter is usually left open. So people who usually shoot by feel (like the Currys) probably won't be bothered by it, but lesser shooters probably rely more on visual cues when shooting, and they're also the sort who might be bothered more by the Kornet Kontest.
 

joe dokes

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It might have some effect, but there's also a nagging suspicion I have that the way the Celtics play defense, the -worst- three point shooter is usually left open. So people who usually shoot by feel (like the Currys) probably won't be bothered by it, but lesser shooters probably rely more on visual cues when shooting, and they're also the sort who might be bothered more by the Kornet Kontest.
No one affects Curry's shot. But "some" effect on the middle of the bell-curve group is quite useful in the 10 minutes Kornet might play.
 

DavidTai

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No one affects Curry's shot. But "some" effect on the middle of the bell-curve group is quite useful in the 10 minutes Kornet might play.
Yeah, it's just that, to me there's some noise here because maybe they're bothered by the shot, but maybe they're just not good 3-point shooters in the first place, and that's why they've been left that wide open.

Still, they're also probably the sort that MIGHT be bothered by it, so it's worth a shot.
 

Fishy1

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Yeah, it's just that, to me there's some noise here because maybe they're bothered by the shot, but maybe they're just not good 3-point shooters in the first place, and that's why they've been left that wide open.

Still, they're also probably the sort that MIGHT be bothered by it, so it's worth a shot.
I would even say that's exactly why they should try it on those shooters. Kornet is playing the free safety role when they can set things up that way, so he should be on the worst offensive player in the corner. That way he can be rim deterrence without having to worry about running off to the corner to defend the three. I wouldn't be surprised if Kornet practiced this down in the Gleague last year and either kept his own numbers on shooting percentages or had someone on the staff do so.
 

joe dokes

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Yeah, it's just that, to me there's some noise here because maybe they're bothered by the shot, but maybe they're just not good 3-point shooters in the first place, and that's why they've been left that wide open.

Still, they're also probably the sort that MIGHT be bothered by it, so it's worth a shot.
I'm sure whoever is tracking the maneuver can probably break it down further. Though I expect sample size issues. One thing that might be unmeasurable is whether shooters will think twice about shooting at all with Kornet jumping around like he's in the mosh pit at CBGBs, and whether the decision not to shoot the 3 has some second-order effect on his team's offense. Given his minutes and the small number of shots, it might all be insignificant. But it still might tbe interesting.
 

DavidTai

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I wouldn't be surprised if Kornet practiced this down in the Gleague last year and either kept his own numbers on shooting percentages or had someone on the staff do so.
I think Kornet -did- say as much about this, actually, that he had some people do numbers and that it seemed to work.

One thing that might be unmeasurable is whether shooters will think twice about shooting at all with Kornet jumping around like he's in the mosh pit at CBGBs, and whether the decision not to shoot the 3 has some second-order effect on his team's offense. Given his minutes and the small number of shots, it might all be insignificant. But it still might tbe interesting.
A fair number of people were suggesting that if Kornet kept doing this, shooters would adjust and just drive to the basket, but it seems to me that it would just either a) draw the shooter closer into the inefficent mid-range shoot, or b) draw them into Kornet blocking /other defender swiping range.
.
I feel like it might be more instructive to see what the average point of possession resulting from a Kornet kontest is like.
 

Fishy1

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I think Kornet -did- say as much about this, actually, that he had some people do numbers and that it seemed to work.



A fair number of people were suggesting that if Kornet kept doing this, shooters would adjust and just drive to the basket, but it seems to me that it would just either a) draw the shooter closer into the inefficent mid-range shoot, or b) draw them into Kornet blocking /other defender swiping range.
.
I feel like it might be more instructive to see what the average point of possession resulting from a Kornet kontest is like.
To the first thing -- thank you, I thought I remembered something along those lines but wasn't sure.

As for the second: exactly. It gives bad shooters three bad options. Shoot an uncomfortable corner three with a gigantic goofball blocking their vision, or drive at the gigantic goofball with their janky handle and get embarrassed and stuffed or forced into a tough shot by said goofball because he's gigantic, or pass the ball back out and reset the offense. It's got to be incredibly frustrating for guys who've already been put in the corner because they're not a reliable option on offense.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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Looking at the trajectory of the full Kornet experience - the production, the increased run and his ability, thus far, to execute at a high level - its hard not to be bulled up on him in the rotation going forward. Even when Williams returns.

His development really gives the Cs a lot of flexibility in terms of rounding out the roster. Their overall record does as well but Kornet being effective gives Brad a bit more leverage when he goes shopping for mid season provisions.
 

DavidTai

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As for the second: exactly. It gives bad shooters three bad options. Shoot an uncomfortable corner three with a gigantic goofball blocking their vision, or drive at the gigantic goofball with their janky handle and get embarrassed and stuffed or forced into a tough shot by said goofball because he's gigantic, or pass the ball back out and reset the offense. It's got to be incredibly frustrating for guys who've already been put in the corner because they're not a reliable option on offense.
I suddenly have a weird understanding of why Kelly Olynyk's defensive stats with Boston was surprisingly positive now.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Yea being 10' off his man has been a pillar of Trae's defensive philosophy
Ha! He was actually one of two players rotating to the corner and was 3’ to the shooters left. Funny clip pretty sure it was Rob Perez who posted it to Twitter.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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For what it's worth, this article (trying to find the Kornet research) indicates that Jalen Duren in Detroit has started using the Kornet Kontest too.

https://www.sportingnews.com/us/nba/news/luke-kornet-contest-eclipse-defense-celtics/d90pcnahh9ymrexqtebvpux8
This article also has the 18 attempts referenced above so if anyone is super bored/industrious and wants to compile the 3P shooting percentages of the people shooting against the Kontest, well, the shots are here for someone to slog through. (Since the video doesn't reference the shooter, one would have to cross-reference the PBP data to find out exactly who shot the ball).

View: https://streamable.com/ka961j
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Another good article on Kornet (not just the contest) here: https://www.clnsmedia.com/luke-kornet-contests-captivating-and-confusing-the-nba/

One tidbit from that article: "Teams take 45.9% of their attempts from the mid-range when he plays, the highest frequency in the league, playing exactly into how the Celtics want to defend opponents. They also struggle to produce threes against his lineup, only taking 32% of their shots from deep when he plays, and hit 31.1%, which ranks in the 94th percentile. "
 

joe dokes

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Another good article on Kornet (not just the contest) here: https://www.clnsmedia.com/luke-kornet-contests-captivating-and-confusing-the-nba/

One tidbit from that article: "Teams take 45.9% of their attempts from the mid-range when he plays, the highest frequency in the league, playing exactly into how the Celtics want to defend opponents. They also struggle to produce threes against his lineup, only taking 32% of their shots from deep when he plays, and hit 31.1%, which ranks in the 94th percentile. "
I await TimeLuke: the 2BIGZ Story.
 

lovegtm

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Another good article on Kornet (not just the contest) here: https://www.clnsmedia.com/luke-kornet-contests-captivating-and-confusing-the-nba/

One tidbit from that article: "Teams take 45.9% of their attempts from the mid-range when he plays, the highest frequency in the league, playing exactly into how the Celtics want to defend opponents. They also struggle to produce threes against his lineup, only taking 32% of their shots from deep when he plays, and hit 31.1%, which ranks in the 94th percentile. "
Getting mild Milwaukee Brook Lopez vibes here.

People forget that Brook was considered a defensive liability most of his career, and signed with the Bucks for just above the minimum as kind of a reclamation project, where they remade him as an interior defender.
 

DourDoerr

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Luke is playing with The Force right now.

I love how he's earned and gained his teammates' trust. Brogdan's been throwing alley-oops to LK for a while now and I've seen Brown get into the act too with set-ups of his own to LK. If TL is going well at the trade deadline, then TL, Al, LK and BG give them enough solid options to not need to acquire another big. I had thought that would be their biggest need. Had he known, Takko might have been the signature practitioner of the Kontest (putting "Kornet" in front seems redundant).
 

JM3

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This article also has the 18 attempts referenced above so if anyone is super bored/industrious and wants to compile the 3P shooting percentages of the people shooting against the Kontest, well, the shots are here for someone to slog through. (Since the video doesn't reference the shooter, one would have to cross-reference the PBP data to find out exactly who shot the ball).

View: https://streamable.com/ka961j
This video only has 16...but of these ones:

Herb Jones (miss) 28.6%
Jalen Johnson (hit) 22.6%
Michael Porter, Jr. (miss) 42.7%
Hamidou Diallo (miss) 15.4%
Alex Caruso (miss) 35.1%
Kyle Kuzma (miss) 30.8%
Isaac Okoro (miss) 22.2%
Isaac Okoro (miss) 22.2%
Paolo Banchero (hit) 23.9%
Kelly Oubre (miss) 31.9%
Jordan Goodwin (miss) 46.4%
Keegan Murray (make) 34.2%
Domantas Sabonis (miss) 39.3%
Patrick Williams (make) 42.9%
Udonis Haslem (miss) 0.0%
Dewayne Dedmon (miss) 33.3%

Average Shooter: 29.5%
Percentage Made: 25%
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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This video only has 16...but of these ones:

Herb Jones (miss) 28.6%
Jalen Johnson (hit) 22.6%
Michael Porter, Jr. (miss) 42.7%
Hamidou Diallo (miss) 15.4%
Alex Caruso (miss) 35.1%
Kyle Kuzma (miss) 30.8%
Isaac Okoro (miss) 22.2%
Isaac Okoro (miss) 22.2%
Paolo Banchero (hit) 23.9%
Kelly Oubre (miss) 31.9%
Jordan Goodwin (miss) 46.4%
Keegan Murray (make) 34.2%
Domantas Sabonis (miss) 39.3%
Patrick Williams (make) 42.9%
Udonis Haslem (miss) 0.0%
Dewayne Dedmon (miss) 33.3%

Average Shooter: 29.5%
Percentage Made: 25%
Wow, thanks for doing that.

I thought he did more than 1 in the WAS game but I can't remember who it was against.

Smart did one against Monte Morris; it was his only 3P miss of the night.
 

DavidTai

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Some numbers on the Kornet Kontest here:

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/35240700/luke-kornet-contest-effective-boston-celtics

Last year in the G League, the Celtics' staff roughly tracked the "Kornet Contest" (or "Kornet Kontest") -- a term coined by Celtics analyst and former NBA player Brian Scalabrine -- finding about 30 instances where it happened. Opponents shot around 25%.
and

This season, ESPN Stats & Information tracked Kornet performing the move on 36 shots -- including 34 3-pointers -- with opponents making 12 shots for a 33.3% success rate. According to Second Spectrum player tracking data, Kornet was the closest defender on 22 of those 36 shots. (Per Second Spectrum, the NBA average on wide-open 3s is 38.0%.)
 

bakahump

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Maybe he didnt want an Old (and recently heavily used) Blake Griffin chasing and competing against an old Lebron and AD. Kornet might have ben the right call simply cause he had something left in the tank.
 

InstaFace

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yeah Griffin needs to go in the cryogenic chamber for at least a week before you can try to restart him. I was disappointed with some of how Kornet's concentration fell apart in the 3rd and 4th last night (along with the rest of the team, though, I suppose), but he made a few plays and stopped a few others once he entered the closing lineup.
 

DavidTai

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Joe putting Kornet in to finish the 4th and OT seemed to change the game. Nice to see him get high leverage minutes.
Probably had something to do with this:

As for the second: exactly. It gives bad shooters three bad options. Shoot an uncomfortable corner three with a gigantic goofball blocking their vision, or drive at the gigantic goofball with their janky handle and get embarrassed and stuffed or forced into a tough shot by said goofball because he's gigantic, or pass the ball back out and reset the offense. It's got to be incredibly frustrating for guys who've already been put in the corner because they're not a reliable option on offense.
Considering that they had Kornet slagging off Russell Westbrook, it's probably not a coincidence that Westbrook started shooting the hell out of the ball around then. Shot them right out of it, too. Forced shots. Drove at giant goofball and stuffed/etc.

And because he's Russell Westbrook, he's gonna say 'screw being frustrated', I'm too good for this goofball and force more shots.
 

benhogan

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Thanks for posting. It was a nice in-game adjustment by CJM

It's why Robert Williams (and Horford) are so important to the defense. The "floating BIG on weakest shooter" is what unleashed TimeLord last year. It also lets the defenders play tighter on the perimeter

Luke is a better defender than Blake, & he should be gathering the 3rd string BIG minutes when TL/Al return
 

the moops

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Some of those Kornet switches were terribly slow and awkward. If the Lakers knew what the hell they were doing they could have gotten way better looks
 

Kliq

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If only that LeBron James knew how to read a defense and pass the ball, the Lakers would have won for sure. A real smart player would pick that a part, right?
 

themuddychicken

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Yes, in a playoff series it wouldn't work very long and the Lakers would be able to attack it after looking at tape between games. But in a regular season game where you're missing your best two bigs, it was an effective adjustment.

It isn't the kind of adjustment that turns a season around, but single-game adjustments to salvage a win against a bad team have value.