What do we actually have with Brock Holt?
- Thread starter BosRedSox5
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As the originator of the Tony Phillips comp, I think Phillips is Holt's ceiling. And that's still incredible.
We might have a Kurt Warner, slip between the cracks guy here.
We might have a Kurt Warner, slip between the cracks guy here.
Tony Phillips had a lifetime 14% walk rate. Holt's looks to be around 8% in the minors and 6.9% in the majors. There's got to be a MUCH BETTER comp out there because it's not Tony Phillips, even with Brock's BABIP at .392. Fangraphs rest-of-the-year ZIPS is at .276 / .329 / .362 for Holt. Hopefully he can do better than that but he's playing at his highest level (including luck) right now.bosockboy said:
Holt will make a great UTIF/OF and back up 7 positions to allow everyone a breather and get 400+ ABs in the future. But he ain't going to be Tony Phillips who had a lifetime .374 OBP (Holt's OBP is .369 with all dat BABIP luck).
The ceiling for Brock Holt is Chuck Norris. In September he will play "move" TE for BB.bosockboy said:
That play in RF tonight looked great. Did anybody see an angle that suggested a bad break or bad route added to the spectacularness of it? He really looks to me like with regular reps he can be an above average defensive outfielder, at least in the corners. Getting half the Abs vs righties in RF may keep Victorino sharp, against lefties he can take SS or CF, and he can pick up other ABs against righties spelling Napoli and Bogaerts, but it's going to be hard to keep him in the lineup everyday without a permanent position. One option is to make him more the everyday SS or LF, but both Nava and Drew are having the same resurgence as Bradley. Holts defense looks to make him better overall than Nava, even with the latter's resurgence. Drew's getting into the offensive groove leaves him the better SS vs. righties. We'll have to see how much of his ISO is persistent when the BABip drops, and whether Bradley can rediscover his lost power stroke to go with his renewed ability to make contact at an about average rate before deciding how good Holt needs to be defensively to win the CF job going forward.
Bradley never had all that much of a power strike to begin with, but there is almost zero chance Holt takes the CF job away from him. This year he plays six days a week even if it's at six different positions but like you I think giving Vic extra bench time is worthwhile. Next year he can hold down SS until they deem Marrero to be ready then he can resume the supersub role.Plympton91 said:
Personally, I would like to see him learn how to catch so our manager is little more comfortable pinch hitting for the catcher.
Holt will make a great UTIF/OF and back up 7 positions to allow everyone a breather and get 400+ ABs in the future. But he ain't going to be Tony Phillips who had a lifetime .374 OBP (Holt's OBP is .369 with all dat BABIP luck).[/quote]
I've read similar predictions of "super sub" for Betts. I don't know if it's possible to schedule enough "breathers" for both of them.
Betts certainly has potential and tools to be a good outfielder, but let's be honest, the lack of experience makes him pretty brutal out there right now. For 2015, I'd see him as the everyday LF, where misplays are 2 bases instead of 3, with Holt spelling Victorino and Nava being the 5th outfielder/backup first baseman. Then in 2016 Betts goes to RF with the expiration of Victorino's contract.
In 2015, barring the much-discussed and much needed acquisition of a Big Bat LF (TM), I would see the starters as Holt/JBJ/Vic with Betts as the swing OF and Nava as the 1B/LF. This yields a lot of flexibility for the final bench spot (after backup catcher). It also means that if BC could acquire the much-discussed and much needed Big Bat LF (TM), then Holt becomes that final bench player/super-sub.Plympton91 said:
You know who's not in this mix? Mike Carp.
Jason Mastrodonato @JMastrodonato 3h
Brock Holt weighed 84 lbs. as a freshman in high school. Scout: "His best tool was his smile." http://www.masslive.com/redsox/index.ssf/2014/07/brock_holt_part_1.html … pic.twitter.com/3g5Q5d5c8x
(he is #1)
great article by Jason Mastrodonato.
Brock Holt weighed 84 lbs. as a freshman in high school. Scout: "His best tool was his smile." http://www.masslive.com/redsox/index.ssf/2014/07/brock_holt_part_1.html … pic.twitter.com/3g5Q5d5c8x
(he is #1)
great article by Jason Mastrodonato.
My first reaction was BNB as well. But he actually looked to me like Kelly Leak. But unlike Kelly Leak, a theoretical 12 year old playing with 9 and 10 year olds (or whatever), Holt was a 13 year old (HS Freshman) surrounded by 17 and 18 year olds (HS juniors and seniors)Hee Sox Choi said:Lupus?
Maybe more Tanner Boyle.
Gordon Edes @GordonEdes 52m
Holt, playing 2b today, the first player in Sox history to start games at 7 positions in a season, excluding P and C
Holt, playing 2b today, the first player in Sox history to start games at 7 positions in a season, excluding P and C
That is remarkable. Really? Over 113 seasons of playing baseball they never had a "supersub" before?mabrowndog said:
Plympton91 said:
I'm initially shocked that Psycho never did it in Boston, but only in Chicago (1989) and he didn't start a game at every position (1 inning at catcher).
Plympton91 said:
I don't see why it's so remarkable. Barring injuries, a lot of players in the "old days" wouldn't miss games just for the sake of taking a day off. Sure, there were subs that played all over, but their utility came primarily from the need to pinch-hit for the pitcher (games played at multiple positions, but not necessarily starts). The advent of the DH has mostly eliminated the need for double switches in the AL, and since that time we've seen more and more specialization of players, so it really shouldn't be a surprise that we don't see players getting time at seven different positions, let alone starts at all of them.
I'd bet good money that we won't see Holt or anyone like him logging starts at 7 different positions again for a long time. The unusual confluence of injuries and underperformance affecting every position on the field in some way or another is what presented the rare opportunity for Holt to get this close to playing all these positions in the course of one year. And considering it took a monumental rarity to get him today's start (a Pedroia day off), today may wind up being the only chance he even gets to notch position #7.
For a long time, teams would have only 8 or 9 pitchers on the roster and no DH, so you would have 7 or even 8 position players on the bench. So there wasn't any need for anyone to start games at 7 different positions. Now the roster is usually 12 pitchers and 13 position players (with 9 of your hitters in the lineup instead of 8) with a 4-man bench, so there is more need for versatile players.
And the Red Sox have had a need at almost every position so far this year, with the lousy OF production and injuries to Victorino, Middlebrooks and Napoli.
Holt has started at 7 different positions not just in one year, but actually in just 2 months.
If Ross has nagging injury issues, as was speculated on the TV broadcast last night, hopefully Holt is working on catching too. He wouldn't ever start a game at pitcher or catcher, but he would be a likely candidate to fill in in a catching emergency or pitch in a blowout.
And the Red Sox have had a need at almost every position so far this year, with the lousy OF production and injuries to Victorino, Middlebrooks and Napoli.
Holt has started at 7 different positions not just in one year, but actually in just 2 months.
If Ross has nagging injury issues, as was speculated on the TV broadcast last night, hopefully Holt is working on catching too. He wouldn't ever start a game at pitcher or catcher, but he would be a likely candidate to fill in in a catching emergency or pitch in a blowout.
M
MentalDisabldLst
Guest
I want to see Brock Holt Day, during the last series of the season vs the MFY. Advertise it in advance as Brock Holt Day, and during that game, he plays 1 defensive inning at every position. I'm pretty sure Farrell could pick an inning where the Yankees due up in the lineup might make outs against the pitching stylings of the BrockStar.
Asked about the decision in postgame comments, John Farrell remarked, "I don't see it as making a mockery of the game at all. Brock has been one of our most important and effective players all year, and we saw this as a way to appreciate someone who has excelled in an un-glamorous bench role. Also, we got to rub the Yankees' noses in it a little bit, and who could complain about that?"
Asked about the decision in postgame comments, John Farrell remarked, "I don't see it as making a mockery of the game at all. Brock has been one of our most important and effective players all year, and we saw this as a way to appreciate someone who has excelled in an un-glamorous bench role. Also, we got to rub the Yankees' noses in it a little bit, and who could complain about that?"
Do it the last day of the season. Deflects attention from whatever less important business might be going on that day.MentalDisabldLst said:
Holt will need to make adjustments now that he is hitting a slump. It will be very interesting to see how he does over the next few weeks. He's probably a bit fatigued, since he's played every inning of every game except one since he came up in May. And now he is in his first slump since breaking out.
He never was going to hit .320 in the majors, but it will be interesting to see what he does from here on-- will he crater and hit .220 the rest of the way, or will he bounce back well from the slump?
He might be coming back down to earth permanently, or maybe he can come out of this and do something like .285/333/390 the rest of the way, which is kind of the level that you might hope for him to be as a hitter in the long term.
He never was going to hit .320 in the majors, but it will be interesting to see what he does from here on-- will he crater and hit .220 the rest of the way, or will he bounce back well from the slump?
He might be coming back down to earth permanently, or maybe he can come out of this and do something like .285/333/390 the rest of the way, which is kind of the level that you might hope for him to be as a hitter in the long term.
For the second year in a row, Holt has now started games at seven different positions.
Someone find this guy a catcher's mitt.
Someone find this guy a catcher's mitt.
AB in DC said:
From what I understand, he uses Napoli's 1B mitt, so I imagine he could borrow Leon's or Swihart's mitt if the occasion arose.
I was hoping for it during the debacle of last year (specifically during Jeter's finale), but if this year continues to be a lost cause I'd really love to see him play all 9 in one game.
Swinging less and enjoying it more. Increased walks at the expense of a few more K's. Even more LDs. Over the last 660+ PAs covering 14 and 15, he has a 28 % LD rate. He won't stay at a .360 BABIP but he will be well above average. He's made himself into a good hitter, especially in the two hole.
He could be one of the more desirable players, from the perspective of a team looking to make a trade.
What exactly does one have to do with the other? Holt's value is entirely tied to playing every position on the diamond except catcher. Castillo should be nowhere near the infield. If you put Holt in right for 500 at bats his value will most likely decrease.MikeM said:
I'm a fan of the guy but I would rather him play 2nd one night SS another RF another etc...than just tied to one spot.
M
MentalDisabldLst
Guest
BoredViewer said:
I think there's truth in this. Given the combination of youth, contract and production, Holt and Tazawa are probably the two best viable trade chips the Sox have -- not counting the likely unavailable Betts, Bogaerts and Swihart -- that would actually bring something of interest in return.
Not that you'd want to trade either ... more a statement on the state of the roster
I've been a fan of Holt since his first few at bats with the sox. He just seems to have that "it" factor. I was pulling for him to be a everyday starter even after all his critics came out at the end of last year. I didn't care for bringing in panda as I figured Brock might end up the odd man out here. I'm so glad to see him continue to succeed and get playing time. Pedroia, Betts, and Holt just have that gritty ball player drive that you want all your guys to aspire to be like.
Holt is currently making half a million bucks. He is unsigned for 2016. Why on earth is he considered expendable? Sure, value Betts, Swihart and Bogaerts more, but why can't this guy be valuable enough to hold onto? The Sox are nuts if they trade him, even for pitching. The fact that the Sox are going nowhere, no matter what pitching they might add to the roster, is reason to look ahead and try to keep the guys that are performing and who won't command top dollar. They ought to at least try to sign him.
InsideTheParker said:
If they don't trade him, he's not going anywhere. He's not arbitration eligible until after next season, and under team control through 2019.
Hindsight, I know, but there were those who wondered whether making Holt the FT 3Bman didn't make the most sense this offseason.... Regardless, keep him.
InsideTheParker said:
They certainly shouldn't treat him as untouchable, but the chances that his trade value matches his on-field value right now seem pretty slim. (If he could turn himself into a passable emergency catcher, I think he would be untouchable.)
He's a true utility player. Other than C and P there isn't a position on the diamond that he can't play at least passably. He's not a Ty Wigginton type who can play any of the corners and even 2B in a pinch, but whom you would never put at SS or CF. Nor is he a Pedro Ciriaco type who can at least fake it at SS but lacks the pop to be useful in the OF. He has the potential to be a Cesar Tovar type--not quite that talented, but in that mold.
And it seems to me that given the positional uncertainty that looms for the Sox in the medium term, with Hanley and Pablo cemented into the lineup for the next three-plus years but not necessarily at their current positions, no certainty about 1B, a fluid OF situation, and a hot prospect-without-a-position coming up in Moncada, Holt's combination of defensive versatility and a solid-average bat, in his baseball prime, at pre-FA prices, will be extraordinarily helpful.
EDIT: And I should add to that list of features, no significant platoon split. (He actually has a career reverse split, but it's probably not a large enough sample to be meaningful, except to say that he has shown no notable problem vs. LHP.)