What do we actually have with Brock Holt?

[MikeM]

What exactly does one have to do with the other? Holt's value is entirely tied to playing every position on the diamond except catcher. Castillo should be nowhere near the infield. If you put Holt in right for 500 at bats his value will most likely decrease.

I'm a fan of the guy but I would rather him play 2nd one night SS another RF another etc...than just tied to one spot.

 
Well, given the current roster construction RF looks like the primary spot he'll be collecting his PT. So if/when you end up sitting your $70m+ "starter" on a regular basis to get the better lineup fit in, it's probably going to end up reflecting rather poorly on the long term commitment that was made there.

 

[Buzzkill Pauley]

This is how Brett Gardners happen; no one really thinks he'll be any good in comparison to the marquee names, but at the end of the day, you just can't take him out of the lineup.

I really hope the Sox don't put him on the block. Hell, at this point in their careers, I'd rather they trade Pedroia.

 

[brandonchristensen]

I'd love a team full of him and Pedey's.

 

[The X Man Cometh]

This is how Brett Gardners happen; no one really thinks he'll be any good in comparison to the marquee names, but at the end of the day, you just can't take him out of the lineup.

I really hope the Sox don't put him on the block. Hell, at this point in their careers, I'd rather they trade Pedroia.

Agreed. People are waiting for him to come back down to earth because of BABIP regression, but his batted ball profile is fantastic. Career 26.1% line drives, 4.7% infield flies. The more this goes on, the more apparent it is that there is repeatable skill at play here.

 

[threecy]

It amazes me how some seem to think Brock Holt is merely a SSS fluke and not a legit full time player.  I suspect this is because he doesn't come from the same pedigree as Jed Lowrie (ie hyped Red Sox first round draft pick).  Whether it be as a super-utility player or settling on a position, I think Holt is an above average player that has earned full time playing time at this juncture.

 

[Koufax]

He's quite valuable, and a large part of the value is his versatility.  There's more defensive value to his portfolio than there is, say, to Will Middlebrooks and his ability to play an average 3B.

 

[Red(s)HawksFan]

It amazes me how some seem to think Brock Holt is merely a SSS fluke and not a legit full time player.  I suspect this is because he doesn't come from the same pedigree as Jed Lowrie (ie hyped Red Sox first round draft pick).  Whether it be as a super-utility player or settling on a position, I think Holt is an above average player that has earned full time playing time at this juncture.

 
I'm not one who thinks he's a fluke, but the way he tailed off in the second half last year in his first extended action as an everyday player (.548 OPS after the ASG) was certainly reason to give pause when considering him as a full time player.  That he's come back this year and is having another "can't keep him out of the lineup" kind of year is reassuring, to say the least.

 

[threecy]

 
I'm not one who thinks he's a fluke, but the way he tailed off in the second half last year in his first extended action as an everyday player (.548 OPS after the ASG) was certainly reason to give pause when considering him as a full time player.

Suffering a serious concussion (Aug. 25) doesn't help.

 

[Red(s)HawksFan]

Suffering a serious concussion (Aug. 25) doesn't help.

 
True, but he was struggling prior to that.  His OPS by month last year: .863, .741, .817, .716, .598, .471.  And that .471 for September was only 5 games...he didn't play much at all after the concussion, so I hesitate to discount his second half dip because of it.

 

[threecy]

 
True, but he was struggling prior to that.  His OPS by month last year: .863, .741, .817, .716, .598, .471.  And that .471 for September was only 5 games...he didn't play much at all after the concussion, so I hesitate to discount his second half dip because of it.

Indeed, he had some struggles in his first full season in the big leagues.  Nonetheless, it's important to call out the concussion when looking at the late season issues.

In the minor leagues, he has a track record of OPSing .750-.850.
I don't think it's a stretch to think he's capable of posting 2014 and 2015 numbers throughout the rest of his 20s.

 

[SouthernBoSox]

I think you just have to give him the lead off spot and go with it.  Holt and Pedroia in 1-2 is a fantastic combo.   Cement those in and go from there. 
 
Holt
Pedroia
Pablo
Hanley
Xander
Ortiz
 
Is the type of "changing of the guard" top 6 that I can stand behind and get's me more excited.

 

[The Tax Man]

Abs with a quick hitter about Holt's cycle:
 
http://sonsofsamhorn.com/baseball/teams/al-east/boston-red-sox/supersub-brock-holt-hit-for-the-cycle/

 

[Savin Hillbilly]

Indeed, he had some struggles in his first full season in the big leagues.  Nonetheless, it's important to call out the concussion when looking at the late season issues.

 
And even with the struggles, he finished the year with a 98 wRC+. That's probably what he is when you sift through the hot and cold streaks: a 100-ish hitter with good on-base skills and meh power. In short, Daniel Nava, only with no platoon split and the ability to play nearly every position at least respectably.

 

[threecy]

 
And even with the struggles, he finished the year with a 98 wRC+. That's probably what he is when you sift through the hot and cold streaks: a 100-ish hitter with good on-base skills and meh power. In short, Daniel Nava, only with no platoon split and the ability to play nearly every position at least respectably.

Daniel Nava was 30 during his first full MLB season.
 
Brock Holt just turned 27.
 
Again, I think people are selling him short because he wasn't a first round draft pick and isn't locked down to one or two positions.

 

[Red(s)HawksFan]

Indeed, he had some struggles in his first full season in the big leagues.  Nonetheless, it's important to call out the concussion when looking at the late season issues.

In the minor leagues, he has a track record of OPSing .750-.850.
I don't think it's a stretch to think he's capable of posting 2014 and 2015 numbers throughout the rest of his 20s.

 
I'm with you 100%.  I've been on the Holt bandwagon since they acquired him.  He's admittedly exceeded my expectations, but I was sold on him as the utility infielder from the moment the trade went down.
 
My only point is he kind of hit a wall in the second half last year, and that fueled a bit of the doubt some expressed.  Yes, the concussion happened, but he only played a handful of games after it happened, so its impact on his overall numbers is small.  The .471 September OPS can be tossed out, but he was still trending down in the two months prior to the injury.

 

[Savin Hillbilly]

Daniel Nava was 30 during his first full MLB season.
 
Brock Holt just turned 27.
 
Again, I think people are selling him short because he wasn't a first round draft pick and isn't locked down to one or two positions.

 
If anything the age difference works in Nava's favor, since we first saw him when his athletic prime was already starting to wind down, as opposed to right in the heart of it as with Holt.

 

[soxhop411]

“@RyanHannable: Farrell on @DaleHolleyWEEI on Brock Holt: ”Brock is going to get regular at-bats, if not every day.“”

 

[soxhop411]

“@JMastrodonato: Probably didn’t need to be said, but Farrell says Brock Holt won’t be Wally-Pipping anybody. He’s a UTL player, a damn good one.”

?

 

[mulluysavage]

A player deserving of All-Star consideration?

 

[Papelbon's Poutine]

“@JMastrodonato: Probably didn’t need to be said, but Farrell says Brock Holt won’t be Wally-Pipping anybody. He’s a UTL player, a damn good one.”

?

 
What's your question? He's saying Holt won't be taking anyone's full time job. He will continue to bounce around the field and spell people. 

 

[soxhop411]

 
What's your question? He's saying Holt won't be taking anyone's full time job. He will continue to bounce around the field and spell people. 

Eh. Was a bit confusing. Previous tweet said regular AB's.

 

[Al Zarilla]

A player deserving of All-Star consideration?

Like Josh Harrison last year, who played all positions except P, C, 1B and maybe CF. Interesting to note that Harrison has since won the full time 3B job. If the Red Sox didn't have so much money, that exact same thing might have happened in Boston.

 

[geoduck no quahog]

Eh. Was a bit confusing. Previous tweet said regular AB's.

 
Not confusing. Rotate him through the infield and outfield to provide regular rest for everyone except Pedroia...then give Brockholt at least 1 day off per week.
 
Holt 3B - Sandoval rests
Holt SS - Bogaerts rests
Holt 1B - Napoli rests
Holt LF - Ortiz rests
Holt LF - Ramirez rests
Holt RF - Castillo rests
Holt RF - Betts rests
 
That's 7 possible substitutions that get him regular at bats. Keeps DeAza on the bench for the most part.

 

[O Captain! My Captain!]

Like Josh Harrison last year, who played all positions except P, C, 1B and maybe CF. Interesting to note that Harrison has since won the full time 3B job. If the Red Sox didn't have so much money, that exact same thing might have happened in Boston.

The Red Sox never had a disaster like Pedro Alvarez's throwing problems at 3b, though. 

 

[Savin Hillbilly]

 
Not confusing. Rotate him through the infield and outfield to provide regular rest for everyone except Pedroia...then give Brockholt at least 1 day off per week.
 
Holt 3B - Sandoval rests
Holt SS - Bogaerts rests
Holt 1B - Napoli rests
Holt LF - Ortiz rests
Holt LF - Ramirez rests
Holt RF - Castillo rests
Holt RF - Betts rests
 
That's 7 possible substitutions that get him regular at bats. Keeps DeAza on the bench for the most part.

 
Also, "regular" doesn't mean "every day," it just means "not sporadic." They could plan to play him three days a week and that would be "regular" as long as it was fairly consistent.

 

[geoduck no quahog]

 
Also, "regular" doesn't mean "every day," it just means "not sporadic." They could plan to play him three days a week and that would be "regular" as long as it was fairly consistent.

 
Absolutely. Plus the regime also responds to injury-missed-games as needed.

 

[Byrdbrain]

I heard Farrell on EEI and he said while he would move around he would get more time at RF in the short term.

 

[AB in DC]

They still don't trust Castillo?

 

[ivanvamp]

Holt's last 24 games:  .359/.457/.538/.995
 
Yikes.

 

[threecy]

Holt's last 24 games:  .359/.457/.538/.995
 
Yikes.

 

 

[The Gray Eagle]

As of this moment, he's the best player on this team.
 
He's leading the team not just in OPS but also in slugging at .469. That is the most astounding part of it to me.
 
Oh yeah, if he had enough PAs, he would be 7th in all of baseball with a .408 OBP (he's 25 PAs short of qualifying for the leaderboard right now.)
 
He had the hot start, then the slump, and now he's on fire again, but his overall season numbers are great. He's put up a season line of .319/.408/.469 in his 185 PAs so far. 145 OPS+. All while playing 7 different positions.
 
He's been raking all year and has been a line-drive machine: 30.9% line drives. That is second in all of baseball (behind Brandon Belt at 33.1) for all players with 170 or more PAs. (Remember, that is his season-long number, including his slump, not just during his current hot streak.)
 
For his career, in 821 PAs, he's hitting .284/.343/.386. That's probably a lot closer to what he's going to hit from here on, but even those numbers are really solid for a guy who covers 7 positions.

 

[OCD SS]

I'd love a team full of him and Pedey's.

 
From the looks of his rosters, Tom Yawkey agreed.

 

[Eck'sSneakyCheese]

He's a damn good all around baseball player. Something this team is lacking. If the book was truly out on him after last year, as some would say, then why is he still producing? I'd much rather watch him than half of the starting lineup. Pedey and watching the kids develop are about the only other reasons to tune-in.

 

[InsideTheParker]

I am very grateful for the summary posted above by The Gray Eagle. The reason folks in the game-threads can propose HOLT for a trade eludes me.  Why is a very versatile player valued less than someone wedded to one position? Is he valued so much less than Bogaerts and Betts because he is presumed to lack power? He's still young and low-paid. I confess I don't understand and would welcome an explanation.

 

[GaryPeters71]

Red Sox Stats ‏@redsoxstats  3h3 hours ago
Holt has a .528 BABIP in his last 13 games. His BABIP is higher now than last year at this point [pre-collapse].

 

[pokey_reese]

As of this moment, he's the best player on this team.
 
He's leading the team not just in OPS but also in slugging at .469. That is the most astounding part of it to me.
 
Oh yeah, if he had enough PAs, he would be 7th in all of baseball with a .408 OBP (he's 25 PAs short of qualifying for the leaderboard right now.)
 
He had the hot start, then the slump, and now he's on fire again, but his overall season numbers are great. He's put up a season line of .319/.408/.469 in his 185 PAs so far. 145 OPS+. All while playing 7 different positions.
 
He's been raking all year and has been a line-drive machine: 30.9% line drives. That is second in all of baseball (behind Brandon Belt at 33.1) for all players with 170 or more PAs. (Remember, that is his season-long number, including his slump, not just during his current hot streak.)
 
For his career, in 821 PAs, he's hitting .284/.343/.386. That's probably a lot closer to what he's going to hit from here on, but even those numbers are really solid for a guy who covers 7 positions.

I love Holt, and have been very impressed by him, but one piece missing from this is that his BABIP is up to .405, driving a lot of that slash line. Even with his high LD%, he would still expect something like a .322 BABIP, though given his career average maybe it's more like .350 during this stretch. However, the point is that it would put him much closer to those career numbers you mention, which again, are more than acceptable for a guy who can play everywhere. I'm just saying that in addition to playing like he is on fire, he has gotten lucky on balls in play.
 
I do wonder if part of his elevated BABIP for fly balls is due to the rest of the league underestimating his power though...

 

[The X Man Cometh]

Looking at Holt's spray charts is somewhat informative.
 

 
Left spray chart is hangtime, right spray chart is batted ball type. So far Holt has only 8 high flies (>4.5 seconds hang time), so this year even his fly balls have been relatively linedrivey in character. He has to regress some but how much is the question.

 

[CaptainLaddie]

He's basically playing like a peak-level Tony Phillips right now, including playing every position -- although Phillips did play at every position in a year, he never got starts like Holt has been doing.

 

[TheYaz67]

I am very grateful for the summary posted above by The Gray Eagle. The reason folks in the game-threads can propose HOLT for a trade eludes me.  Why is a very versatile player valued less than someone wedded to one position? Is he valued so much less than Bogaerts and Betts because he is presumed to lack power? He's still young and low-paid. I confess I don't understand and would welcome an explanation.

 
Well, I assume it is because he would be coveted potentially by many teams due to a combination of his good hitting, positional flexibility and low pay/lack of long term commitment, so he may actually bring something back of value (meaning perhaps a decently rated young prospect who is in A or AA ball as opposed to an older AAAA type player).  Despite their more "advanced" skill sets/higher upside/record of success, no one is going to trade for someone like Sandoval right now b/c of his lack of positional flexibility, not playing well and his contract - and/or you are not getting anything good in return for someone to take that contract from you.  Holt + another player however may bring back something of value, so that is why I presume it is being discussed....
 
Also want to note that while it is great to see EdRo and Swihart join the SOSH masthead, said masthead is severely lacking in the BROCKHOLT! department....

 

[JBJ_HOF]

I do wonder if part of his elevated BABIP for fly balls is due to the rest of the league underestimating his power though...

 
Well he had 3 fly ball hits vs the Braves, twice over Maybin's head and one flair that Gomes couldn't get to. He also has an outfield hit off Garrett Jones' glove at Yankee Stadium and a 250' fly ball hit that landed in a triangle against the Yankees.

 

[Savin Hillbilly]

Lose brought up the idea of Holt doing the Cesar Tovar gambit in the Swihart injury thread. At first I was skeptical you could do it with 13 position players and a DH without somebody ending up in a ridiculous position, but actually it would work pretty well with our current roster (although the idea of Holt pitching, even for an inning in a meaningless game, kind of freaks me out).

[table Holt as Tovar -- How To Do It] 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1B Napoli Napoli Napoli Napoli Napoli Napoli Holt Shaw Shaw 2B Betts Betts Betts Holt Pedroia Pedroia Pedroia Pedroia Pedroia SS Bogaerts Bogaerts Bogaerts Bogaerts Holt Bogaerts Bogaerts Bogaerts Bogaerts 3B Ramirez Sandoval Sandoval Sandoval Bogaerts Holt Ramirez Ramirez Ramirez LF Holt de Aza de Aza de Aza de Aza de Aza de Aza de Aza de Aza CF Castillo Holt Castillo Betts Betts Betts Betts Betts Betts RF de Aza Castillo Holt Castillo Castillo Castillo Castillo Castillo Castillo C Swihart Swihart Swihart Swihart Swihart Swihart Swihart Swihart Holt P Holt [/table]

 

[HomeRunBaker]

What exactly does one have to do with the other? Holt's value is entirely tied to playing every position on the diamond except catcher. Castillo should be nowhere near the infield. If you put Holt in right for 500 at bats his value will most likely decrease.

I'm a fan of the guy but I would rather him play 2nd one night SS another RF another etc...than just tied to one spot.

Holt's versatility is downplaying how valuable he is regardless of defensive position. If Holt was in RF all season his .860 OPS would rank 4th in all of baseball behind Harper, Cruz, and Stanton. His value is certainly much more than simply tied to being able to play every position sans catcher.

 

[ivanvamp]

Wicked small sample size, but still…holy cow.  
 
Holt's last 6 games:  26 ab, 9 r, 12 h, 4 2b, 3 3b, 1 hr, 5 rbi, 3 bb, .462/.517/.962/1.479
 
Nice week of baseball for the guy.  
 
On the season now:  .318/.407/.486/.893
 
Oh, and he's played 7 positions this year while making just 4 errors.

 

[Savin Hillbilly]

I wonder what the best season in baseball history was, in WAR terms, for a utility player (let's define that, for the sake of argument, as a guy who started games at at least 4 positions, while not having 50% or more of his starts at any one position)? Whatever it was, Holt might be on a pace to top it.

 

[grimshaw]

I wonder what the best season in baseball history was, in WAR terms, for a utility player (let's define that, for the sake of argument, as a guy who started games at at least 4 positions, while not having 50% or more of his starts at any one position)? Whatever it was, Holt might be on a pace to top it.

Zobrist in 2009 I would think:
91 at 2b (started exactly 81)
59 in RF
13 at SS
9 in LF
7 in CF
3 at 1B
1 at 3B
Only started 4 of those positions more than 4 times.
 
8.6 WAR and 22 runs above average in defense with a wRC+ of 152 (Holt is at 150)
Holt should fall around Harrison's 5 WAR last season.
Of course Harrison wisely took the 4 year + 2 option 27.3 million security deal since he's been so so this year.
I wonder how much the defensive WAR is skewed by playing that many positions since UZR is such a SSS for each.

 

[joe dokes]

Zobrist in 2009 I would think:
91 at 2b (started exactly 81)
59 in RF
13 at SS
9 in LF
7 in CF
3 at 1B
1 at 3B
Only started 4 of those positions more than 4 times.
 
8.6 WAR and 22 runs above average in defense with a wRC+ of 152 (Holt is at 150)
Holt should fall around Harrison's 5 WAR last season.
Of course Harrison wisely took the 4 year + 2 option 27.3 million security deal since he's been so so this year.
I wonder how much the defensive WAR is skewed by playing that many positions since UZR is such a SSS for each.

 
 
Tony Phillips is the only one who could come close, in Detroit, 1991 & 92.  He started 13 or more games at 5 different positions. 5 WAR (bpro)

 

[Super Nomario]

The crazy thing about Holt is not just that he plays so many positions - it's that he's the primary backup at so many positions. Consider:
 

• Tonight is his 3rd start at 1B, tied with Ortiz for 3rd on the team, behind Napoli and Nava (5 starts)
• He's the only player other than Pedroia to play 2B (4 starts)
• He's the only player other than Bogaerts to play SS (6 starts) except for 1 Bianchi inning
• He's 2nd on the team in starts in LF (6)
• He's 3rd on the team in starts in CF (2)
• He's tied (with Victorino) for the team lead with 16 starts in RF.
• Overall he's third on the team in OF starts - in other words, he's basically a starting OF in addition to being the primary backup IF.

It's not like he's an emergency option; he's 1st, 2nd, or 3rd in starts and innings at every position except C and P. That's nuts. (Oh, and he's leading the team in OPS, and in walk rate for you Moneyball nerds)

 

[BosRedSox5]

Isn't it crazy that Holt was a throw in to the Joel Hanrahan deal? I mean it's not any crazier than the fact that we traded a superstar closer for 7 innings of Joel Hanrahan but it's great that we got value out of someone who was considered a throw in to balance a trade like Holt was. 
 
Ever since that trade, I didn't understand why Holt wasn't really considered a prospect. Over two levels (aa and AAA) in 2012, Holt slashed .344/.406/.453/.859. He was 24 so maybe slightly old for AA but still. He showed decent on base skills and considering how he was a middle infielder... a decent enough bat overall. 
 
Brock Star's never going to hit for a ton of power, but I think he's shown enough value to be a starter. Pick a position, and Holt could probably put up a 2-3 WAR there. 

 

[CaptainLaddie]

Isn't it crazy that Holt was a throw in to the Joel Hanrahan deal? I mean it's not any crazier than the fact that we traded a superstar closer for 7 innings of Joel Hanrahan but it's great that we got value out of someone who was considered a throw in to balance a trade like Holt was. 
 
Ever since that trade, I didn't understand why Holt wasn't really considered a prospect. Over two levels (aa and AAA) in 2012, Holt slashed .344/.406/.453/.859. He was 24 so maybe slightly old for AA but still. He showed decent on base skills and considering how he was a middle infielder... a decent enough bat overall. 
 
Brock Star's never going to hit for a ton of power, but I think he's shown enough value to be a starter. Pick a position, and Holt could probably put up a 2-3 WAR there. 

Melancon had a 6.20 ERA in Boston and a career ERA of 4.07 before going to Pittsburgh.  Let's not pretend that he was Mo Rivera.

 

[absintheofmalaise]

Isn't it crazy that Holt was a throw in to the Joel Hanrahan deal? I mean it's not any crazier than the fact that we traded a superstar closer for 7 innings of Joel Hanrahan but it's great that we got value out of someone who was considered a throw in to balance a trade like Holt was. 
 
Ever since that trade, I didn't understand why Holt wasn't really considered a prospect. Over two levels (aa and AAA) in 2012, Holt slashed .344/.406/.453/.859. He was 24 so maybe slightly old for AA but still. He showed decent on base skills and considering how he was a middle infielder... a decent enough bat overall. 
 
Brock Star's never going to hit for a ton of power, but I think he's shown enough value to be a starter. Pick a position, and Holt could probably put up a 2-3 WAR there. 

Why do you think that Holt was just a throw in in the trade? From a Cafardo article from last year:

 
When the deal started to include other players, Cherington insisted on Holt.
“We had good reports on Holt from our scouts who thought he was an everyday player,” Cherington recalled.

 

 
 
“We loved [Holt’s] bat. The ability to command and manage at-bats was impressive. We liked the defensive versatility. We happened to have a good guy at second base [Neal Walker] and a guy in a similar role in Josh Harrison. We thought our best return for Joel was Melancon and we were willing to put Brock in the deal to get it done.”

I really like Holt, but he's a utility player. The best position for him, if he were to start, would be second. He doesn't have the bat for the corner outfield or infield positions and he doesn't have the range or arm to play  short.