What does 2023 look like?

Manramsclan

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The current lack of Major League talent can be laid at the feet of one David Dombrowski. He drafted really, really poorly. Put that together with spending prospect capital like a drunken sailor, and his org getting popped for violating rules for signing international prospects and you are looking at the fallow period we have now.
The talent that Bloom has drafted an developed won't really be ready until late next year. Then we will really see if he has done a good job or not.
 

CoffeeNerdness

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I don't think Dave Dombrowski has much to do with the 2023 team being so thin that one injury has them playing a quad A first baseman at the most important defensive position on the diamond. Bloom has been an abject disaster.
 

Quatchie

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I don't think Dave Dombrowski has much to do with the 2023 team being so thin that one injury has them playing a quad A first baseman at the most important defensive position on the diamond. Bloom has been an abject disaster.
Bloom will be fired before Labor Day. This looks like a 90 loss team. There is no good reason Dalbac is playing SS.
 

Petagine in a Bottle

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The current lack of Major League talent can be laid at the feet of one David Dombrowski. He drafted really, really poorly. Put that together with spending prospect capital like a drunken sailor, and his org getting popped for violating rules for signing international prospects and you are looking at the fallow period we have now.
The talent that Bloom has drafted an developed won't really be ready until late next year. Then we will really see if he has done a good job or not.
Which Bloom guys do we expect to be ready by late next year? Mayer and Bleis, maybe? Lots of the top prospects on this loaded system are DD guys. Ultimately, the Sox haven’t drafted very well since the rules changed; Cherington’s final few drafts were abysmal. Or course, there are lots of ways to acquire players, many of the Rays top pitchers, for example, were freely available talent or acquired in somewhat minor deals. For whatever reason, the Sox have seemed pretty reluctant to make trades in the last few years.
 

MuzzyField

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The current lack of Major League talent can be laid at the feet of one David Dombrowski. He drafted really, really poorly. Put that together with spending prospect capital like a drunken sailor, and his org getting popped for violating rules for signing international prospects and you are looking at the fallow period we have now.
The talent that Bloom has drafted an developed won't really be ready until late next year. Then we will really see if he has done a good job or not.
David Dombrowski wasn't responsible for the international rules violations, he inherited them.

He WAS responsible for the most dominant season in the history of the franchise and the flag that resulted. I hope the Bruins enjoy the same ending to their current storybook season.

At David's feet, I bow in thanks to his "drunken fucking sailor" genius!

He certainly didn't restock the farm, but he also didn't let anything of real value get away via trade. I also loved his decisiveness when it came to executing his plan and building his roster.

Not a fan of the "fuck that guy" attitude when it comes to DD.
 

Papo The Snow Tiger

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David Dombrowski wasn't responsible for the international rules violations, he inherited them.

He WAS responsible for the most dominant season in the history of the franchise and the flag that resulted. I hope the Bruins enjoy the same ending to their current storybook season.

At David's feet, I bow in thanks to his "drunken fucking sailor" genius!

He certainly didn't restock the farm, but he also didn't let anything of real value get away via trade. I also loved his decisiveness when it came to executing his plan and building his roster.

Not a fan of the "fuck that guy" attitude when it comes to DD.
I agree 100% with this post!
 

jteders1

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The current lack of Major League talent can be laid at the feet of one David Dombrowski. He drafted really, really poorly. Put that together with spending prospect capital like a drunken sailor, and his org getting popped for violating rules for signing international prospects and you are looking at the fallow period we have now.
The talent that Bloom has drafted an developed won't really be ready until late next year. Then we will really see if he has done a good job or not.
It's been four years since DD was replaced. This is on Bloom. He's had ample time to restock the system via drafting and trades and improve the major league rosters via signing and trades. The fact is that every year that Bloom has gotten here the opening-day roster has been worse. This team needs to find its footing and make a run because if they don't, I think we're going to see the whole house cleaned, including Cora.
 

Harry Hooper

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Defensively, 2023 looks a lot like 2022 with a lot of stupid ball on display.

Cora, “But still, routine plays, we didn’t make. … That’s the part that frustrates me. I guess I have to do a better job coaching them and just be on top of it because, at this level, you can’t do that.”
 

ehaz

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I still can't believe the plan to address the starting rotation was to sign a 37 year old Kluber to replace Eovaldi and rely on a combination of guys who: haven't thrown in three years (Sale/Paxton), have only made a handful of starts at the MLB level (Bello, Whitlock, Houck), or are Nick Pivetta.
 

YTF

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I still can't believe the plan to address the starting rotation was to sign a 37 year old Kluber to replace Eovaldi and rely on a combination of guys who: haven't thrown in three years (Sale/Paxton), have only made a handful of starts at the MLB level (Bello, Whitlock, Houck), or are Nick Pivetta.
With the exception of Kluber, the rest were already in house. Other than upgrading Kluber, what would you have liked to have seen? Wouldn't this be the year to find out what Houck, Whitlock and Bello can do?
 

ShaneTrot

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I still can't believe the plan to address the starting rotation was to sign a 37 year old Kluber to replace Eovaldi and rely on a combination of guys who: haven't thrown in three years (Sale/Paxton), have only made a handful of starts at the MLB level (Bello, Whitlock, Houck), or are Nick Pivetta.
This is kind of where I am at. There is not one guy in this rotation who was an above-average starter last year. The rotation is based on the hope that the young guys will improve and that Sale and or Paxton can be useful again. Plus this staff is full of old guys. The Sox have the oldest pitching staff in the AL at 31.5 years, the Rays have a pitching staff with an average age of 28.1, the second youngest in the AL.
 

EdRalphRomero

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I'll say that I have been a defender of Bloom, "the plan," and John Henry. That said, at this point I lay this primarily at Henry's feet. I think I remember (but I am sure I will be corrected if I am wrong) that it was clear DD was out the door when he gave Sale what I believe to be the most inexplicable extension in Red Sox history. That extension allocates something like 12% of the current Red Sox payroll to one washed up, injured pitcher. Henry should have prevented that. Beyond that giant mistake, the Sox have just failed to add decent players and decent ML depth. This year they have the 13th highest payroll in the majors. 13th! The Sox get passionate fans and full Fenway and, in exchange, are not supposed to have 12 other teams with higher payrolls. The Red Sox are supposed to be poaching other teams' best talent, not watching players like Betts and Bogie walk out while in their prime. That is on Henry. I think Bloom has done a decent job executing on the prospect restocking project. Not exceptional...decent. He has been hit and miss with his scrap heap pick-ups. But the rotation was always going to be inadequate outside of an extraordinarily low probability outcome across a bunch of starters. The basic problem is they aren't spending money, and a significant portion of the money they are spending is going to Chris Sale. Henry had a long leash. I will always be grateful for what he did and how he changed this franchise. But my patience with him has worn thin.
 

WrenHorn

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I suspect Bloom would largely be in agreement with folks assessment of their starting staff. I don't think he was hoping that Cory Kluber would suddenly be the Guardian version of Kluber, or that Sale would be 2017 Sale. Where I think his approach was his preposterous was that he somehow though that throwing 23 million at Chris Martin [who himself was DFA'd in 2022] and Kenley Jansen would somehow solve 100% of the problems in the pitching staff and bullpen. I don't think it's a reasonable excuse to say, "well, Joely Rodriguez and Wyatt Mills are hurt" as if they're some kind of known commodity. There's no feasible way that Bloom thought six of the following group [Mills, Rodriguez, Ort, Kelly, Martin, Schreiber, Brasier, Bleier] were going to represent the best collection of non-closers in baseball.

I think what's frustrating is that I buy into what the Rays as an organization do. They cycle arms, they're aggressive in moves and their trades are some times unconventional. They'll ride guys out all year if their glove justifies it. That's what I thought we'd get a facsimile of here, but it's really not the case.

Instead what we've received is a largely conservative and trigger shy GM who really hasn't made a ton of innovative moves. With the exception of the Seabold/Pivetta move, I don't see a ton of creativity over the years. Did Bloom move Vasquez at the deadline? Sure. But he settled us with two essentially roster holds in Wilyer Abreu and Enmanuel Valdez who one day might be useful major leaguers but limit the scope of what we can do with the roster. The Astros were probably thrilled to get an asset for guys they might not have protected on their 40 man roster. The roster management this offseason was simply abhorrent. You were going to place Mondesi on the DL60 the whole time but you for some reason waited until right before the season started to force your hand? Raimel Tapia was really the solution? Like ... why are Abreu and Duran on the 40 man roster if we have to lean on Tapia? Why is David Hamilton on the roster if we're going to promote Bobby Dalbec to play SS? Why is Thaddeus Ward on the Nationals with a 1.059 WHIP in 7 innings so that we can roster Kaleb Ort and Ryan Brasier?

The roster mismanagement on this roster is just disastrous.
 

WrenHorn

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I don't really understand the criticisms of ownership, though. Like, they provided the Red Sox with ample amount of money to spend. How is it ownership's fault that we decided to ..

Bloom spent on the following:

Jansen 16M
Yoshida 15.6M
Kluber 10M
Hernandez 10M
Turner 8.3M
Martin 8M
Duvall 7M
Paxton 4M

That's 80.9mm in offseason spending on players that were not committed to a contract or arbitration eligible. That's more than some teams payroll. This is what we came up with? I'm sorry, that's not on John Henry.
 

amfox1

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With the exception of Kluber, the rest were already in house. Other than upgrading Kluber, what would you have liked to have seen? Wouldn't this be the year to find out what Houck, Whitlock and Bello can do?
This. I read this thread and posters are surprised at how the team is playing, but it was obvious that this was not a well-constructed team and was not built to compete for the playoffs.

2023 should be an audition for the younger pitchers - Bello, Whitlock, Houck, Crawford, Winckowski (and, post-trade deadline, Murphy, Mata, Walter and perhaps Politi, Mosqueda, Drohan and Guerrero). Every other pitcher at the major-league level is trade fodder at the deadline.

On the position player side, there's a lot of work to do and not much help in the high minors. We'll hopefully have Duvall and Mondesi back by Memorial Day and Story by the AS break but we are where we are until then. Again, I'd try to sell off as many non-critical pieces as we can at the deadline.
 

amfox1

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Like ... why are Abreu and Duran on the 40 man roster if we have to lean on Tapia? Why is David Hamilton on the roster if we're going to promote Bobby Dalbec to play SS?
Tapia is on the 26-man because he outplayed Duran in ST by a wide margin. Abreu was hurt in ST and, even if healthy, wasn't a realistic 26-man option to begin the year.

Hamilton hadn't played in AAA before this year; he's not ready for the majors (just because you're on the 40-man doesn't mean you are a realistic 26-man option). Hopefully by the AS break, after a statistically significant number of PAs, he will be ready but by then hopefully Mondesi will be playing and Story will be on the cusp of playing. Dalbec is an AAAA body to fill a spot, nothing more.
 

WrenHorn

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Tapia is on the 26-man because he outplayed Duran in ST by a wide margin. Abreu was hurt in ST and, even if healthy, wasn't a realistic 26-man option to begin the year.

Hamilton hadn't played in AAA before this year; he's not ready for the majors (just because you're on the 40-man doesn't mean you are a realistic 26-man option). Hopefully by the AS break, after a statistically significant number of PAs, he will be ready but by then hopefully Mondesi will be playing and Story will be on the cusp of playing. Dalbec is an AAAA body to fill a spot, nothing more.
If Dalbec is on the 40-man roster to fill a roster spot, that's a preposterous use of 40-man space. 40-man considerations need to take precedence. It doesn't matter if Tapia outplays Duran if it costs you Ward or another 40-man guy, and I realize the timing of that doesn't line up. If Duran is on the 40-man roster, he needs to be the guy getting the shot if there's an injury -- he's not a good enough asset to justify being outplayed by someone NOT on the 40-man roster and keeping his spot. Same with Dalbec.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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If Dalbec is on the 40-man roster to fill a roster spot, that's a preposterous use of 40-man space. 40-man considerations need to take precedence. It doesn't matter if Tapia outplays Duran if it costs you Ward or another 40-man guy, and I realize the timing of that doesn't line up. If Duran is on the 40-man roster, he needs to be the guy getting the shot if there's an injury -- he's not a good enough asset to justify being outplayed by someone NOT on the 40-man roster and keeping his spot. Same with Dalbec.
I expect Duran will get a shot. Maybe as soon as after this weekend. Dalbec was recalled for one very big reason: he's a right handed hitter and the team was scheduled to face a shit-ton of lefties this week. Three of the four Rays' starters (plus 2 or 3 relievers) were LHP. The Angels' next three starters this weekend are LHP.

Come Monday, they get Ohtani followed by the Twins who don't have a lefty in their rotation. Assuming there are no other significant injuries over the weekend, I wouldn't be at all surprised to see Duran called up and Dalbec sent down prior to the Patriots Day game.
 

chawson

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I don't really understand the criticisms of ownership, though. Like, they provided the Red Sox with ample amount of money to spend. How is it ownership's fault that we decided to ..

Bloom spent on the following:

Jansen 16M
Yoshida 15.6M
Kluber 10M
Hernandez 10M
Turner 8.3M
Martin 8M
Duvall 7M
Paxton 4M

That's 80.9mm in offseason spending on players that were not committed to a contract or arbitration eligible. That's more than some teams payroll. This is what we came up with? I'm sorry, that's not on John Henry.
Honestly, is there something self-evidently wrong with these players at these salaries?

Also, it's April 13th.
 

pk1627

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I don't think Dave Dombrowski has much to do with the 2023 team being so thin that one injury has them playing a quad A first baseman at the most important defensive position on the diamond. Bloom has been an abject disaster.
Cora had some options who to play at this “most important defensive position,” including Kiké. He chose Dalbec to get a right handed bat in the lineup. It didn’t affect the game outside of producing some runs. Why the hell is this an indictment of anything?
 

GPO Man

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If Dalbec is on the 40-man roster to fill a roster spot, that's a preposterous use of 40-man space. 40-man considerations need to take precedence. It doesn't matter if Tapia outplays Duran if it costs you Ward or another 40-man guy, and I realize the timing of that doesn't line up. If Duran is on the 40-man roster, he needs to be the guy getting the shot if there's an injury -- he's not a good enough asset to justify being outplayed by someone NOT on the 40-man roster and keeping his spot. Same with Dalbec.
I agree 100%. At least Duran has some upside to his game and can run. Dalbec should not be on a major league roster even as bad as ours. Put Kike back to short and let Duran play most games in center. If he can’t produce this year, we know it’s time to move on.
 

Looch

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I didn't have high expectations for the Red Sox this season, but I didn't foresee that after 13 games following a long winter I would not look forward to watching them play. And while hope theoretically springs eternal, this group seems to have little chance of catching fire. At least they went undefeated for like 10 preseason games,
 

tims4wins

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I didn't have high expectations for the Red Sox this season, but I didn't foresee that after 13 games following a long winter I would not look forward to watching them play. And while hope theoretically springs eternal, this group seems to have little chance of catching fire. At least they went undefeated for like 10 preseason games,
Really? I 100% expected to not care by Memorial Day if not sooner
 

Quatchie

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When will the Fire Chaim Bloom thread start officially? May, June or July? I predict early June so that an interim replacement can come in and make trades at the deadline that Bloom wouldn't (aging vets for lottery tickets).

Over under on Theo Epstein mentions as a potential replacement? 25. No, he is not the right guy.
 

chawson

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Yeah, Martin and Jansen were each projected as 0.4 win players via Fangraphs.
Maybe they're using a different projection system than Fangraphs!

Jansen looks outstanding in the early going here, throwing harder than ever. Jordan Romano, arguably the best reliever in the AL East last year, is projected for 0.3 fWAR. We don't need to use ZIPS projections for relievers.
 

Coachster

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I expect Duran will get a shot. Maybe as soon as after this weekend. Dalbec was recalled for one very big reason: he's a right handed hitter and the team was scheduled to face a shit-ton of lefties this week. Three of the four Rays' starters (plus 2 or 3 relievers) were LHP. The Angels' next three starters this weekend are LHP.

Come Monday, they get Ohtani followed by the Twins who don't have a lefty in their rotation. Assuming there are no other significant injuries over the weekend, I wouldn't be at all surprised to see Duran called up and Dalbec sent down prior to the Patriots Day game.
Once again, can you name one baseball skill that Jarren Duran does better than Ramiel Tapia? I'm asking honestly here. Statistically it's not even close.

I want to see Duran get a shot the same as I want to see Dalbec get a shot. Like, not now, not ever.
 

jose melendez

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If they fire Cora before Bloom, I'm going to lose my shit.

Bloom has been a fucking disaster. From the team that was almost in the Series in 2021, damn near anyone who's still good is gone, and people who suck are still here.

Xander, Renfroe, Vasquez, Schwarber, Eovaldi--gone.

Still here: Ort, Arroyo, the corpse of Kike, Brasier, Sale

Devers is great. Verdugo, Pivetta, and Whitlock are all useful pieces, but 2021 was really lucky and he proceeded to chose wrong almost every from that team.

We're four years in, and they've been God awful every year except for one fluke. Cora has a record of success pre-Bloom.

If Cora stays and Bloom goes, this is broken.
 

jose melendez

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Once again, can you name one baseball skill that Jarren Duran does better than Ramiel Tapia? I'm asking honestly here. Statistically it's not even close.

I want to see Duran get a shot the same as I want to see Dalbec get a shot. Like, not now, not ever.
Dalbec is a problem, but I think its really unfair to group him with Duran. Dalbec has, as least one year, been a legit MLB player and he tries. Duran--not so much.
 

Manramsclan

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I don't really understand the criticisms of ownership, though. Like, they provided the Red Sox with ample amount of money to spend. How is it ownership's fault that we decided to ..

Bloom spent on the following:

Jansen 16M
Yoshida 15.6M
Kluber 10M
Hernandez 10M
Turner 8.3M
Martin 8M
Duvall 7M
Paxton 4M

That's 80.9mm in offseason spending on players that were not committed to a contract or arbitration eligible. That's more than some teams payroll. This is what we came up with? I'm sorry, that's not on John Henry.
If they didn't spend this money we'd be even more pissed and screwed at the major league level. Only Yoshida and Jansen are longer term commitments. Everyone else is one and done and will likely have value at the deadline.

There is a lot to complain about, but this ain't it.
 

radsoxfan

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I don't really understand the criticisms of ownership, though. Like, they provided the Red Sox with ample amount of money to spend. How is it ownership's fault that we decided to ..

Bloom spent on the following:

Jansen 16M
Yoshida 15.6M
Kluber 10M
Hernandez 10M
Turner 8.3M
Martin 8M
Duvall 7M
Paxton 4M

That's 80.9mm in offseason spending on players that were not committed to a contract or arbitration eligible. That's more than some teams payroll. This is what we came up with? I'm sorry, that's not on John Henry.

Without diving into each of those decisions, I think people look at total payroll as some marker for ownership commitment when it's not that straightforward. Fangraphs has the Red Sox at 196M for this season, 10th in MLB. Not exactly where we have been, but not terrible.

But there is no reason a team's budget has to be static from year to year. Some years you have guys like Mookie Betts making peanuts and you can field a championship roster with a reasonable payroll. Some years (like this one) you can't.

It was very obvious given the previous bad contracts and lack of cheap high level MLB talent, that Henry et al. were going to have to spend big to stay competitive. More than they probably wanted to. And they chose not to do it.

Fair enough, it's their team, but let's not pretend their current payroll is somehow sufficient given what they should have known going into this season.
 

Sandy Leon Trotsky

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I honestly don’t get the freaking out here. Go to the “predictions” thread and it really seems like most of the people losing their mind after less than 20 games are the same posters that figured they’d be around .500 on the season and knew this was a transitional team.
Bloom is STILL doing exactly what he was brought in to do- transition the team from a bloated aging roster…with some significant talent, into a younger team. This meant we were strapped to Chris Sale and had to deal with Mookie, a mL system with no talent ready for several years…. Decisions on likely mega contracts on X, Benintendi, JDM….
I really look at last year as the last year of Dombrowski’s team and this year as Year 1 of Blooms team…. And if Bloom is let go at the end of this year… his “team” will likely last another 2-3 years afterwards. It’s not a clean break as obviously Bloom had his designs all over everything from Day 1 and Dombrowski is still being felt (Sale)…
 

NDame616

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I honestly don’t get the freaking out here. Go to the “predictions” thread and it really seems like most of the people losing their mind after less than 20 games are the same posters that figured they’d be around .500 on the season and knew this was a transitional team.
Bloom is STILL doing exactly what he was brought in to do- transition the team from a bloated aging roster…with some significant talent, into a younger team. This meant we were strapped to Chris Sale and had to deal with Mookie, a mL system with no talent ready for several years…. Decisions on likely mega contracts on X, Benintendi, JDM….
I really look at last year as the last year of Dombrowski’s team and this year as Year 1 of Blooms team…. And if Bloom is let go at the end of this year… his “team” will likely last another 2-3 years afterwards. It’s not a clean break as obviously Bloom had his designs all over everything from Day 1 and Dombrowski is still being felt (Sale)…
The Red Sox are the 6th oldest team in baseball. Last year we were the 12th oldest team.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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The Red Sox are the 6th oldest team in baseball. Last year we were the 12th oldest team.
I think the key word in SLT's sentence is bloated more so than age. When Bloom was hired, they had big, long commitments to veterans (Sale, JDM, Eovaldi, etc) with a bunch of their young previously cheap talent due for significant raises/longer commitments (Betts, Bogaerts, JBJ, Benintendi, Vazquez, Devers, etc). Not really tenable to try to hold that bunch all together for another 2-3 years.

None of the older additions this year are long term commitments. They're placeholders for the coming youth (or free agents next winter).
 

Steve Dillard

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I can marginally accept retrenching. But last years deadline of not selling to either get under the tax and get better prospects/picks for Xander/JDM or deal them for prospects was totally inconsistent with the retrench. Theo had many advantages via comp picks and no cap on drafts, but he maximized those. Bloom has minimized the odds. Add in the failure to sign Ruiz (and essentially lose a million in International money) and he’s failed at his primary job of replenishing the system
 

lexrageorge

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I can marginally accept retrenching. But last years deadline of not selling to either get under the tax and get better prospects/picks for Xander/JDM or deal them for prospects was totally inconsistent with the retrench. Theo had many advantages via comp picks and no cap on drafts, but he maximized those. Bloom has minimized the odds. Add in the failure to sign Ruiz (and essentially lose a million in International money) and he’s failed at his primary job of replenishing the system
Ruiz is 17 and there were injury concerns. Yes, losing the money is not ideal, but signing a player that is likely to bust out due to injury is not useful either.

Bloom has had all of 3 amateur drafts, and one of those was truncated. Unfortunately, it takes many years to rebuild via the draft in baseball, and that is why all of the system's best prospects are still in high-A or at best AA.

Agree with you, however, that Bloom missed an opportunity to reset things last year. Probably would not have helped the team's record this April, but he could have perhaps stocked up on some higher level AA/AAA lottery tickets.
 

GPO Man

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Maybe they're using a different projection system than Fangraphs!

Jansen looks outstanding in the early going here, throwing harder than ever. Jordan Romano, arguably the best reliever in the AL East last year, is projected for 0.3 fWAR. We don't need to use ZIPS projections for relievers.
We should be able to flip Jansen at the deadline for a nice prospect.