Absolutely. It was your post that opened the door to me thinking of it.Can I take credit for this even though it never entered my mind before you just wrote it?
Absolutely. It was your post that opened the door to me thinking of it.Can I take credit for this even though it never entered my mind before you just wrote it?
No one has attempted to do this. This is about a single street name.Making Yawkey a scapegoat for racism in MLB is just so silly.
This is relevant how? Did Mr. Yawkey organize desegregated games in the 1800s?Frankly blacks played with whites in the 19th century.
Dude - the marketing concern was that racists (and racist-adjacent) wouldn't accept a black player - that they may even commit violence. Is your defense truly that it was just smart business to be racist?It was refusal of influential White players like Cap Anson to take the field against Black opponents along with marketing concerns led to segregation in baseball. Some of those same concerns existed in the 1950's.
And those cities should address it as they see fit. "Someone had to be last" is just about the last thing you want to hang your hat on.Yawkey was last but so what. Three years later than Yankees and 1 year later than Tigers. Someone had to be last.
Quick glance shows that 39 guys played for the '67 team. 5 were black, one was Cuban. A crisp 13.5%, but I'm sure that even one black guy on the team made your head spin and think you were seeing double (or triple in this case)That 1967 team was pretty mixed, seemed close to 40%. He definitely embraced integration in the end as did most of MLB.
Again, the "other people were worse" is just the worst argument to make. This is a small win, this is an easy victory - in the march towards reconciling with an American past that glorified the people who kept institutional racism alive in America.There were far more worse villains than Yawkey on this issue among players, owners and commisioners who are in the HOF. Heck many of our ex-Presidents who had slaves have street names , this is just an opportunistic means to erase Yawkeys memory that benefits the current ownership group at his expense.
Collins retired after the 1947 season, so given that there had only been three Black players in the majors during the time he was the GM, all in 1947 maybe there were a few other people in MLB who were opposed to integrating the game.Yawkey let Pinky Higgins and Eddie Collins run his club for 25 years. You don't need much more evidence than that.
IDGAF? You don't name streets after folk for being racist OR dumb.Although, those people didn't go along with change as well as people like Rickey and Veeck. In those two cases, was it open-mindedness or seen as a way to gain more talent (and more money)?
Can you summarize key points for those of us uninterested in a WSJ subscription?There is a recent review in the Wall Street Journal by Leigh Monteville of Bill Nowlin's book, Tom Yawkey: Patriarch of the Boston Red Sox, that some may find interesting.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/review-tom-yawkey-a-stain-on-red-sox-nation-1517608976
He is Boston’s version of a Confederate general, his name a reminder of its troubled past. As the winds of political correctness blew across the country last summer, with Civil War statues and memorials toppled and removed, Tom Yawkey returned to the front pages of newspapers in the northeastern city where he spent his summers....
Mr. Nowlin, in his immaculately researched, well-written climb through Yawkey’s life, struggles to find the answers. He encounters a lot of people who liked the man. Virtually all of the African-American players who eventually played for him, including Jim Rice, George Scott and Reggie Smith, spoke highly of him. The African- Americans who worked for him on his South Carolina plantation all say nice things. His contributions to charity are obvious. And yet: “It is sad to recall this history of the Red Sox,” Mr. Nowlin concludes, “and sad to think of what could have been had Tom Yawkey taken actions that were readily available to him.”
Yawkey Way is still known as Yawkey Way, but present Red Sox management recently renewed its request to rename the street. Change, no doubt, will come.
I don't have a WSJ subscription. I just typed Tom Yawkey into Google News search and the article came up. That still works this morning. I didn't realize that entering the URL required a subscription or I would not have included it.Can you summarize key points for those of us uninterested in a WSJ subscription?
No big deal, I was just curious what the article said.I don't have a WSJ subscription. I just typed Tom Yawkey into Google News search and the article came up. That still works this morning. I didn't realize that entering the URL required a subscription or I would not have included it.
Jersey street? Meh...
Honestly in this social climate they may be better off not naming it after anyone.Pretty anti climatic if you ask me. I would have preferred Ortiz Way...
Any “good” he did for the city was undermined by his racist values. I’m ashamed that Boston has his name on anything as that’s not what this city stands for. Good riddance. I’m just sad they copped out and want Jersey street back. Why not go the extra step and name it after an African American hero? I’m not talking about Pumpsie Green Way either...Well then
That’s the name of the street. Who cares if out-of-towners don’t approve?Jersey street? Meh...
Well, at least one part of their statement is transparent...Well then
I was thinking of something similar. Like having all the retired numbers on the street sign(s).Isn't the obvious response: "Jersey Street? Ok, but whose jersey?"
Maybe they can have specialty signage/banners of retired number jerseys up and down the street.
No number 42 though. Not a true Red Sock.I was thinking of something similar. Like having all the retired numbers on the street sign(s).
It's originally on there but they have it removed.No number 42 though. Not a true Red Sock.
As is tradition.
Hey! This Red Sox fan started rooting for the sox in NJ! New York ain't my fucking town. On the other hand, I was kind of outnumbered.Jersey Street would be fine if it wouldn't connote annoying MFY fans.
Maine Street/Way/Drive/Row would be better if they don't want to go with a player.
And it makes some sense from the city's point of view since it's already (still) Jersey Street on the other side of Boylston. Its hard enough to get around, might as well keep the ipswich-jersey-kilmarnock part of the alphabet intact.I think reverting to Jersey Street is fine. But then of course, I'm from New Jersey.
They already have the retired numbers across Brookline Ave on David Ortiz Drive.Isn't the obvious response: "Jersey Street? Ok, but whose jersey?"
Maybe they can have specialty signage/banners of retired number jerseys up and down the street.
I dont care about the name from that standpoint. Just disappointed after all of this debate over who it could or should be named after, it just reverts back to JerseyThat’s the name of the street. Who cares if out-of-towners don’t approve?
This is a really cool idea.Isn't the obvious response: "Jersey Street? Ok, but whose jersey?"
Maybe they can have specialty signage/banners of retired number jerseys up and down the street.
That debate is what they're trying to avoid. They don't want the issue of removing Yawkey's name bogged down by an argument about which other person should be honored instead.There was debate over what to change it to? Maybe here there was, but from what I've read, it was always about removing the Yawkey name from that section of Jersey Street, not finding a brand new name.
I think "Joisey Street" would be fine.Just revert to Jersey Street and be done with it. The ceremonial renaming of streets thing is just so overdone.
The D'Angelo's. It used to be "Twins Souvenir Store".Who owns the "Yawkey Way Store"?
I'm not sure what that had to do with Yawkey specifically. The story came out several years after his death...in fact Rice was a second year player in 1976.Maybe Jim Ed could "explain" to The Yawkey Foundation why they want to rename the street. He got to experience some extra racism during his playing days on the sox, courtesy of Yawkey. What was it with that whites only country club in Florida that Yawkey would give passes to his top players?
They may not be happy with a name change. All that stationery!The D'Angelo's. It used to be "Twins Souvenir Store".
Funny you should mention that.....They may not be happy with a name change. All that stationery!
http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/red_sox/2017/08/haunted_by_past_owners_history_red_sox_seek_name_change_for_yawkey_way“We don’t look at this thing as a monumental change. It may be in the city’s eyes, a Yawkey Way name change, but the only thing it changes is our stationery. Besides that, that’s life.”
Sorry for delay, I moved on to other thingsNo one has attempted to do this. This is about a single street name.
This is relevant how? Did Mr. Yawkey organize desegregated games in the 1800s?
Dude - the marketing concern was that racists (and racist-adjacent) wouldn't accept a black player - that they may even commit violence. Is your defense truly that it was just smart business to be racist?
And those cities should address it as they see fit. "Someone had to be last" is just about the last thing you want to hang your hat on.
Quick glance shows that 39 guys played for the '67 team. 5 were black, one was Cuban. A crisp 13.5%, but I'm sure that even one black guy on the team made your head spin and think you were seeing double (or triple in this case)
Your memory may be foggy because 3 were regular starters (George Scott, Joe Foy and Reggie Smith). What's more, they were all players who debuted in '66, showing that they had an immediate impact by being starters on a AL Champ team.
Again, the "other people were worse" is just the worst argument to make. This is a small win, this is an easy victory - in the march towards reconciling with an American past that glorified the people who kept institutional racism alive in America.
How does it truly benefit the team? Boston and New England are full of racism-apologists who'll be grumbling over glory-days (not going to accuse you of being one, but your post sure is right outta the playbook). Heaven forbid Schilling hears about this.
I'm not condoning the things he did but I don't think removing all things Yawkey is the right thing to do. Yawkey is arguably the most important man in Red Sox history and denying his role is not the way to go. In my opinion anyway.I’d also love for them to take the Yawkey plaque down. Why immortalize a racist on your park that is supposed to promote diversity? Also wouldn’t cry if they unretired number 4 since Cronin was also apart of this crap with Collins and Yawkey but understand that’s more taboo
Never a bad time to jump back into a thread on racism.Sorry for delay, I moved on to other things
I missed the part where the Ted Williams Tunnel was being renamed, but ok.Sampo Gida said:First, this is not just about a street name and you know it.
No. The owners "owned" the teams. The players "played" in the games. If an owner wanted the best talent on the field, and some white players refused to play, we could have a discussion here. Racism was rampant among players, yes - but they didn't sign the players, own stadiums, etc. etc. etc.Sampo Gida said:Second, segregation had as much to do with white players of the day as the owners.
The MacPhail report has basically one conclusion: if more black people go to games, less white people would. You can call that a legitimate business concern, it's racist. And if it's not racist, it's facilitating others racism. You make it sound like a worthwhile experiment that just turned out to be wrong. It was pure racism.Sampo Gida said:Third, the MacPhail report clearly expressed legitimate business concerns, some of which proved unfounded over time. Baseball was and still is a business. The 50's and 60's were a transitional period, some adjusted more quickly than others.
Always helpful to understand to whom you are speaking, and calling people "blacks" helps me here. Thanks.Sampo Gida said:However, there were at least 3 other teams who signed blacks to their organization later than the Red Sox (1950) and the Tigers were last to play a black that came up from its organization, their first 2 came from trades.
Not sure why I'm keeping this in mind. I'm certainly keeping in mind that several years later, the players - led by an African-American player named Curt Flood - significantly changed the power dynamics of baseball.Sampo Gida said:Keep in mind, there was no draft. One had to get a player to sign with you, and then you had to develop them. At least one of the negro leagues were still operating. Not every signed player made it , and maybe the more talented players chose NY teams over Boston
"A black." Cool, cool.Sampo Gida said:So was Yawkey late to the party? Yes, but not overly so. In 1959 only 4 AL teams had a black who was a regular player and of the 41 black players who had played in the AL since 1949 only 5 were regulars who had played for 5 years .
Never heard it called "position player bias" but I haven't run it through Urban Dictionary.Sampo Gida said:As for the 67 team, of the 13 position players with 100 PA 5 were black. Thats 40%. My perception was obviously position player bias
There's not a lot of talk about the players here, and that's with many good, and some bad, reasons. But I don't see anyone saying take down numbers, or erase records and championships. And it's rather comical that you're all for slapping as asterisks on some records - but can't fathom a street name change, something that happens literally everyday in this country.Sampo Gida said:Picking on Yawkey because its easy is low. Maybe unretire some of those players numbers and remove the pennant flags from players and teams who played in that racist past is next. Many historical street names of figures who did far worse by todays standards
Put an asterisk next to any record achieved in the preintegration era and I'll be on board. Not this though.
This is a sage point - not all plaques need be celebratory. They are often best when they are informational, and meaning is derived by the observer.I'm not condoning the things he did but I don't think removing all things Yawkey is the right thing to do. Yawkey is arguably the most important man in Red Sox history and denying his role is not the way to go. In my opinion anyway.
No longer honoring his name is not the same thing as denying his role. This is basically the Confederate Statue debate all over again.I'm not condoning the things he did but I don't think removing all things Yawkey is the right thing to do. Yawkey is arguably the most important man in Red Sox history and denying his role is not the way to go. In my opinion anyway.
It's Jersey Street. Like it had been for a long time before 1977.PC BS at its finest...Jersey Way? Yuck
Like it still is for the length of it that doesn't abut Fenway Park.It's Jersey Street. Like it had been for a long time before 1977.