Redick in that story:
If Redick doesn't know how much time is on the clock then they have bigger issues than Simmons and Embiid's youth. You have to know the game situation.
Cheesesteaks vs. Chowdah Part I - The Sixers/Celtics Series Thread
- Thread starter BigSoxFan
- Start date
Redick in that story:
Sure, I get that. But there was a better way to do it than say no one knew how much time was on the clock. You gotta know when the shot goes up, if it misses, what you need to do.
Correct, but I’m not sure it’s vital to rehearse what you’re going to say to the media when your rookie teammate screws that’s up. Redick didn’t throw his teammate under the bus; that’s all that was required of him.
Simmons? He screwed up. Rookies do that. (The key was his failure to internalize the significance of the C’s having a foul to give — if an immediate foul would’ve stopped the clock, going for the tip-in is perhaps defensible.)
Except this is nearly all wrong.
He traded MCW for the Lakers pick. "Virtually nothing" is ridiculously wrong.
He traded Jrue for Noel AND a first round pick in 2014
He drafted jeremi grant in the second and traded him to OKC for ilysova and a pick.
He also picked up Covington and to McConnell as undrafted.
He used two second round picks to trade for stauskas, two pick swaps and an unprotected sac pick.
The hernangomez trade got two future second back. Trading a second for two future seconds sounds like nothing I guess.
Regardless of the fact that complaining he didn't hit on second round picks is pretty insane.
Did you even read your own link??
Rishaun Holmes was also a second round pick that people like.
In short most of this is utterly wrong but good work.
As for people saying how much better the Celtics rebuild has been that is true but they had a better starting position and that nets trade is pretty fricking huge.
People forget that the rebuild started with one meaningfully good player, jrue, and not even their own first round picks intact from the bynum mess.
The starting point was worse and they didn't even have the older vets to move like the Celtics did (amazingly amazingly well)
We get it the Celtics are in a better place, shitting on the sixers for not being as good must be fun but it's not the same starting point.
If you're going to slam hinkie's moves at least get them right.
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Yes, my mistake on MCW, but what did Hinkie really have to show for three years of massive losing? He whiffed on Giannis, whiffed on Noel, whiffed on Okafor and had to wait two years for Embiid. How many minutes has Holmes or any other Philly draft pick other than Embiid, Simmons or Saric played against the Celtics? The guys who are playing are Ilyasova (signed as a free agent by Colangelo after being waived by the Hawks), Belinelli (same), McConnell (signed by Hinkie as an undrafted free agent out of Arizona), Redick (signed by Colangelo as a free agent) and Covington (signed by Hinckie as a free agent after being waived by the Rockets). Not a single one of those players was either drafted by Philadelphia, or traded for one or more of the picks that Hinkie accumulated.
But now, every time Colangelo does something that a Philly fan doesn't like, we have the comments that "Hinkie would have done this, Hinkie wouldn't have done that." The fact is that the NBA stepped in to remove Hinkie because losing on purpose was hurting the image of the league. Hinkie + Colangelo have so far accomplished nothing except winning one playoff round.
And the narrative that the Sixers have supreme young talent who will blossom into a championship contender is baloney. The best young talents I've been watching in this series are Jason Tatum, Terry Rozier, Janen Brown and Marcus Smart, every one of whom was drafted by Ainge.
But now, every time Colangelo does something that a Philly fan doesn't like, we have the comments that "Hinkie would have done this, Hinkie wouldn't have done that." The fact is that the NBA stepped in to remove Hinkie because losing on purpose was hurting the image of the league. Hinkie + Colangelo have so far accomplished nothing except winning one playoff round.
And the narrative that the Sixers have supreme young talent who will blossom into a championship contender is baloney. The best young talents I've been watching in this series are Jason Tatum, Terry Rozier, Janen Brown and Marcus Smart, every one of whom was drafted by Ainge.
It is such a lazy take. You can make literally every GM in the league look awful if you judge them by this standard. Danny Ainge sucks. Who is this Kelly O bum? How did he not draft Draymond Green or Khris Middleton instead of Melo and Sullinger? Fire him.
I'm not saying Hinkie was the worst GM in history or that Colangelo is the sharpest tool in the box. I guess the bottom line is, I don't trust the process. And why should anyone trust it after watching the last three games?
As for Giannis, 15 wrongs don't make a right. Yes, Hinkie had plenty of company on that one, including Ainge.
As for Giannis, 15 wrongs don't make a right. Yes, Hinkie had plenty of company on that one, including Ainge.
They took a franchise with nothing and gave them one of the best prospective futures in the league, and "only" winning a playoff series is just a dumb comment.
You're judging things on a three game sample, your own words. This is just dumb.
I'm happy for you support one of the best run franchises in the league, don't be a twa
Edit you don't trust the process based on three games if geninuely one of the worst takes I've heard in a long time.
You were also wrong on the Jrue trade and the is of second picks.
You're judging things on a three game sample, your own words. This is just dumb.
I'm happy for you support one of the best run franchises in the league, don't be a twa
Edit you don't trust the process based on three games if geninuely one of the worst takes I've heard in a long time.
You were also wrong on the Jrue trade and the is of second picks.
I agree with almost all of LS's post except I don't really follow how the Celtics "had a better starting position." In 2012-14 the Celtics won 39 (over .500: short season), 41, 25 games. In those same three years the Sixers won 35,34, 19. They were basically nearly equal teams six, five and four years ago - mediocre and declining. That's part of why it's so compelling...they had THE SAME STARTING POSITION and CHOSE different paths back to contention.
2015 C's won 40 and Philly won 17 and a lot of people thought Ainge was blowing it.
2015 C's won 40 and Philly won 17 and a lot of people thought Ainge was blowing it.
Did they have a better starting position, though? You'd have to clarify exactly when you think the "Start" was. If it's pre KG trade, the Celts had an old, capped out roster which was looking at an absolute ceiling of something like a six seed for the up coming season, and a real risk of missing the postseason. That's not so different to the mediocrity treadmill the Sixers were on pre process.
If you mean post KG trade, then the Celtics roster was a jumble of misfit toys not necessarily having more trade value than the Sixers' second round/undrafted flotilla. They were better at actual basketball, but
since being really bad at basketball was a deliberate tactic in Philly, can't really say that was a starting advantage of the C s.
Boston took the best player in one draft with the #3 pick, and probably the second best in another at the same spot, where the other guy projected to be in play has been nowhere near as good. They got a useful, sixth man on a contender guy in the middle lottery, got a guy who spurred the finals run for a low first, hired a great coach, traded for a star and signed two all stars- biggest knock on Ainge is taking a decent roleplayer in a draft where the project big became a superstar.
Philly hit on two top 3 picks, unambiguously blew another, traded up for a question mark and made a couple of really good trades to get shitty teams' picks, and gave their fans a long period of crappy unwatchable ball.
Frankly, it's almost unfair to compare anyone else's rebuild to Danny's. Only Morey is on that level. The Celts' rebuild is a ninetieth percentile plus effort. The Sixers' is somewhere sixtieth to eighteenth, I'd guess? They could easily have been the Kings or Knicks.
That may be the conventional wisdom, but I don't agree with that statement unless they can make a major signing or two in free agency this Summer. In my view, they are where the Timberwolves were before they acquired Jimmy Butler.
Yeah...I mean, someone's doing a bad job as a Celtics fan when I'm going to take London's side in this.
The Celtics plan involved not tanking, but instead getting better and attracting a star or two, which seemed impossible to lots of very knowledgeable basketball fans.
I'm not sure the Timberwolves would beat the 76ers in a 7 game series and in what world are the 76ers the Wolves without Jimmy Butler? Yeah, they are about as good as a team than won 19, 26 and 31 games. That is absurd.
People keep bringing up the problem of not having veteran leadership on Philly, but maybe we're not taking it seriously enough as the lacking piece of The Process, i.e. a failure to account for veteran leadership.
Like, even Horford fans have learned more and more about the value they place on him. Or at least all the players and coaches seem to agree that it's important to pretend he's important to keep the team together.
I think MaMo might have some value there too--he's taken to a mentoring relationship with Tatum. We might have problems with MaMo, but how do we feel about Tatum's development.
I obviously don't want the 6ers' plan to come to fruition, but this could be an interesting case study in talent w/ and w/o leadership--which means it might also be correctable by incorporating it into the process.
Which also means Danny is a genius Jedi freak.
Like, even Horford fans have learned more and more about the value they place on him. Or at least all the players and coaches seem to agree that it's important to pretend he's important to keep the team together.
I think MaMo might have some value there too--he's taken to a mentoring relationship with Tatum. We might have problems with MaMo, but how do we feel about Tatum's development.
I obviously don't want the 6ers' plan to come to fruition, but this could be an interesting case study in talent w/ and w/o leadership--which means it might also be correctable by incorporating it into the process.
Which also means Danny is a genius Jedi freak.
One of those things is not like the other. One of those things doesn't belong.
Wiggins is not a good basketball player.
If Philly adds Paul George, they become a legit threat to come out of the east. When Minnesota added Jimmy Butler, they became a legit threat to make the playoffs.
edit: Wiggins is still young enough to get better but he's basically the same player he was when he entered the league.
I think Philly thought this would be a learning season for Simmons, Embiid, and Fultz, but they arrived ahead of schedule.
Philly may entertain trading their draft pick this year for veteran-type that fills the Horford role, if they don't think they can find one in FA.
Philly may entertain trading their draft pick this year for veteran-type that fills the Horford role, if they don't think they can find one in FA.
If that's the case, I wonder what GMs around the league are thinking seeing two young teams hit stride a year+ ahead of schedule?
I think this is true, this was expected to be a building year, there are a number of moves which are based on getting better and attracting a top free agent in the next two offseason (either or).
Redick and amir are signed for one year, Covington contract uses the cap space this year to lower future salary cap hit.
The Celtics I mean with regard to the aging kg team which needed to be rebuilt and while you or I may say they didn't have a lot, a GM disagreed.
If the nets trade doesn't happen you are pretty capped out and limited draft position it would have been very interesting to see how that went.
You guys how have 3 max guys as well as the draft. It's amazing
Redick and amir are signed for one year, Covington contract uses the cap space this year to lower future salary cap hit.
The Celtics I mean with regard to the aging kg team which needed to be rebuilt and while you or I may say they didn't have a lot, a GM disagreed.
If the nets trade doesn't happen you are pretty capped out and limited draft position it would have been very interesting to see how that went.
You guys how have 3 max guys as well as the draft. It's amazing
IIRC, HomeRunBaker has been pretty convincing on this point, with respect to these two teams, over the past couple of years. Horford is the perfect dad for the young guys to watch in practice day-in. Like, the thought of Tatum, plus 20 pounds of muscle, taking in Horford’s big man skills with his insane osmosis superpowers has me catching the vapors. And guys like Mook teaching the youngins how to be professionals, plus how to have an unshakable, at times unreasonable, faith in your ability to get buckets.
But seriously, Al Horford is married to a Miss Universe, counts David Ortiz as a close friend, and calls Pedro Martinez “Tio”. Average Al is living his best life and the kids know it.
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If Fultz has "arrived," I missed it, unless you mean he's on the roster, like Yabusele. As for Wiggins, I agree 100% that he is not presently a good player but by the same token I did not see him having any one point games against the Rockets.
At present you can sag into the middle and dare Simmons to shoot, which is a killer in the half court game. Simmons also needs to improve his defense on smaller, quicker guys, cut down on the turnovers and learn to make free throws. Like Wiggins he's young enough to improve, but its going to be a long road.
I won't try to undersell the value of the Nets trade, or the value of LUCK, but the Celtics path might have been more improbable:
1) Ainge actually had to go and make that trade and get KG and PP to play along - it's not like it was there to begin with; you can't give credit to Philly for trades and then dismiss the Nets trade;
2) Philly had control over their record, BOS didn't control BKNs;
3) Tatum and Brown are really good but what was supposed to be the core of this playoff run (Irving, Hayward and Horford) aren't in Boston if Ainge and Stevens don't win and rebuild at the same time. Almost nobody except Ainge thought the Celtics would sign two top FAs and have another all-star shoot his way off of a championship team and end up in Boston. None of that happens if you go the tanking route.
We've seen tanking work before but this has been a very unusual strategy.
Doesn't make one route better than the other and nobody knows who will win a title first.* It's just an interesting compare and contrast.
*If the 76'ers win one first I will be comforted by the knowledge that every time they win a title the Celtics win the next year.
We have talked about alternate worlds in which Tatum is a Sixer, but what does the world look like if Durant signed in Boston??
Dude, WTH? I said the PLAN was to have them all play this year, and perhaps start to aim for postseason next year.
However the team still got the #3 seed. Were they supposed to say "Nah, we're not ready, never mind."
76ers were barely over .500 until mid season. Maybe the 16-game winning streak against mostly lousy teams changed expectations.
My brother is a lifelong 76ers fan, as am I, and we are happy with winning one playoff series, and pretty sure that the expected bright future isn't a slam-dunk. Nothing is certain with this franchise.
Otoh, we both think the Celtics are heading to the NBA Finals! You guys undersell your team so much.
The Sixers late season run isn’t all that different from the Celts in 2015 and 2016. Lots of wins against lousy teams that probably inflated our expectations in the playoffs
The only thing I'd add/adjust here is that Hayward probably doesn't see Boston as more attractive than Utah without the BKN picks, and the Cs don't have the capital to acquire Kyrie without those picks.
In the alternate universe where Nets fans went back in time to kill baby Billy King, the Celtics have a disgruntled, injured IT, Kelly and Jae are still on the roster, and we're probably talking about whether they should blow it up, or if Terry Rozier can take the leap to being a #1 option.
Hinkie doesn't get nearly enough credit for nailing tons of moves at the margins. He also would probably never have made the Fultz trade, and would have gotten Fultz at #3 for free.
Really I'd say his only egregiously bad move was the Okafor pick, and I'm not convinced the Celtics wouldn't have picked him in the same spot, given their love for Dukies.
If I were hiring a GM from scratch, I'd choose Ainge or Morey, since they've shown an ability to be really really creative and non-linear in team-building. But if they weren't available, and I were a team looking at a rebuild, I'd probably hire Hinkie.
Four years of crappy basketball is nothing if it gets you to 52 wins and a team that's probably 2nd best in the East next year. The Kings, Wolves, Nets, Magic, Lakers, Suns and Knicks have all had similarly bad stretches with far less to show for it.
I don't think anyone really understands what is happening. Even as we believe, we don't necessarily understand.
It might be a rare form of honesty emerging on a message board, which is why it would appear so confusing!
My question with Hinkie is what would this team look like now were he still in charge.
Does he bring in veteran leadership like Redick and some of the trades for veterans or does he continue “the process”? I have my doubts as I think he valued so much in future value.
We know he wouldn’t have traded with Ainge, but does he take Jackson at 3 this past year or still take Fultz.
IMO, I have doubts that he would’ve advanced the team like they did this past year. He reminds me more of a Ben Cherington than a Theo.
I kind of disagree with this. 4 years is forever in pro sports. It's the length of an election cycle. Think about the 2013 vs. 2017 Red Sox. Or the 2013 vs. 2017 Pats. 4 years of losing badly is brutal IMO.
This is an interesting hypothetical. Obviously, there is no Hayward because cap room would have been gone. My guess is that Ainge goes all in and trades the Tatum pick for a guy like George or Butler. Your PG is probably Rozier. Lineup could have looked something like:
Horford
Durant
George
Brown
Rozier
Crazy thing is that I’m not sure we would have been better off than with our Kyrie/Tatum/Hayward reality.
Maybe I'm being confusing, but I'm agreeing with you here. This was a "get ready" season. When it ended as the #3 seed due to Simmons and Embiid popping and their end of season run, they became the sexy pick of ESPN idiots. They signed guys like Redick and Amir to be the veterans on a team they likely expected to finish around .500 and maybe sneak in as the 8th seed. I think the window they are really shooting for is starting next year--which is why all this started--I think they'll attempt to bring in better veteran leadership for next season, when they hope to be a legit top 2 or 3 seed type of team.
Kind of like how the 2017 Celts got the 1 seed but with Brown as a rookie and another Nets pick on the way they weren’t really “ready”
Once Philly is finished, we get the best matchup for the conference finals. For the first time in my life, I will root for the Celtics. If Boston has a good lead over Philly late in Game 4, I hope Philly fans start chanting "Beat LeBron." Probably not going to happen. But we owe you one.I don't think anyone really understands what is happening. Even as we believe, we don't necessarily understand.
It might be a rare form of honesty emerging on a message board, which is why it would appear so confusing!
My guess is that they make the Tatum pick and then trade for Irving so that we would have spent the year watching the Durant/Horford/Irving Celtics run the chain on the NBA.
Though Gordo didn't play this year, the Celts got a heckuva shot of talent by signing Horford and Hayward without having to give up anything. Add those 2 all stars to the other moves Danny has made and you see that he was attacking the rebuild from multiple directions. Signings, trades and the draft. With Hinkie it was mostly draft.
The Andrew Bynum fiasco absolutely destroyed the Sixers. The question is, where they would be today if another very competent GM and coach had taken over for Tony DiLeo and Doug Collins and had tried a different approach? At the beginning of the 2013 season the Sixers had: Jrue Holiday (a young all-star), Andre Iguodala, Evan Turner, 11th pick in the draft and a bunch of journeymen (e.g. Thaddeus Young). Could they have rebuilt without enduring 4 years of being terrible? In a perfect world, yes, although hindsight is 20-20. We'll never know what Ainge, or R.C. Buford, or Morey would have done differently. Hinkie's approach might have looked much better too, had he drafted Porzingis instead of Okafor.
But, as presently constituted are they poised to vault into the NBA's elite in the next two or three years? I just don't see much evidence of that on the court.
But, as presently constituted are they poised to vault into the NBA's elite in the next two or three years? I just don't see much evidence of that on the court.
Yeah, he got one of the rawest deals ever. He had the misfortune of being in a big eastern market; had he been in Sacramento or Phoenix or Portland he's probably still the GM.
What is "elite" to you? They will go into next year with a top 10 pick, an improved Simmons and possibly Fultz. If they aren't pegged to be a 1-3 seed, something is wrong. And that is just for next year, nevermind their youngins coming into their prime in a few years.
Imagine how pumped everyone would be if we were guaranteed two top five picks this draft?
Instead, they're just adding Hayward and Kyrie back to the team we're watching now. That's insane.