Grant Williams traded to Dallas

bankshot1

Member
SoSH Member
Feb 12, 2003
24,824
where I was last at
Generally speaking you always want to be the team receiving the best player in a deal which is what we did here. Top end talent is what wins in this league and we've failed now a couple times with Smart and Grant as contributors.
Do you really believe the Celts lost the last two years due to the shortcomings of maybe their 3rd or 4th or 5th best player (Smart) and their 7-8 guy, who CJM sat on. You're putting the onus on the Omegas and not the twin Alphas? If the Js had played with the same heart and focus as Smart, there's decent chance the Celts could have won both years. Of course they also needed a coach

I think blaming Smart for no banners the past couple of years is hasty and misguided rationalization at best.
 

Cellar-Door

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 1, 2006
34,948
Do you really believe the Celts lost the last two years due to the shortcomings of maybe their 3rd or 4th or 5th best player (Smart) and their 7-8 guy, who CJM sat on. You're putting the onus on the Omegas and not the twin Alphas? If the Js had played with the same heart and focus as Smart, there's decent chance the Celts could have won both years. Of course they also needed a coach

I think blaming Smart for no banners the past couple of years is hasty and misguided rationalization at best.
I think the point was more... Smart and Grant playing big roles has proven not to be that valuable, so moving them out for another guy at JB's level should be a no-brainer. He's actually embracing your "it's about the stars" point. Trade 3rd and 4th tier talents for higher tier talents, because you can backfill role players a lot easier than stars. KP is a star talent
 

Bosoxian

New Member
Aug 17, 2021
161
I thought the KP deal would help limit Al’s minutes, as time is catching up to him. With Grant gone, Al may see more minutes.
 

benhogan

Granite Truther
SoSH Member
Nov 2, 2007
20,410
Santa Monica
There is a chance Hauser is a better fit than Grant with the addition of KP.

When you get to 8th or 9th man it becomes very situational

Also getting two 2nds and an exception is good work for letting Grant sign elsewhere.
 

HomeRunBaker

bet squelcher
SoSH Member
Jan 15, 2004
30,391
I think the point was more... Smart and Grant playing big roles has proven not to be that valuable, so moving them out for another guy at JB's level should be a no-brainer. He's actually embracing your "it's about the stars" point. Trade 3rd and 4th tier talents for higher tier talents, because you can backfill role players a lot easier than stars. KP is a star talent
^^^^This

We replaced two role players with a potential alpha. I struggle with not understanding how this doesn't significantly increases our chance to get over the hump. While reaching the EC Finals this year without any semblance of a committed coaching staff behind the HC is not nothing....that isn't what we are trying to accomplish here and certainly not something we should be content with achieving.
 

nighthob

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
12,716
There is a chance Hauser is a better fit than Grant with the addition of KP.

When you get to 8th or 9th man it becomes very situational

Also getting two 2nds and an exception is good work for letting Grant sign elsewhere.
Two seconds and the ability swap a low second for a higher one.
 

lovegtm

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 30, 2013
12,273
There is a chance Hauser is a better fit than Grant with the addition of KP.

When you get to 8th or 9th man it becomes very situational
....
Weiss mentioned that in his article on Grant's departure. This speaks to both @HomeRunBaker 's point about needing a unified and filled-out coaching staff, and also some potential addition-by-subtraction in taking away the possibility for Tatum to lobby for Grant's playing time. There was definitely some dysfunction during the Philly and Miami series with players trying to fill the (assistant) coaching vacuum by lobbying for specific lineup choices.
The staff wanted to give Sam Hauser more playing time to prepare for the playoffs, but Jayson Tatum and Jaylen Brown advocated for Williams to return to the lineup.
https://theathletic.com/4669565/2023/07/06/grant-williams-dallas-mavs-trade-boston-celtics/
 

benhogan

Granite Truther
SoSH Member
Nov 2, 2007
20,410
Santa Monica
Weiss mentioned that in his article on Grant's departure. This speaks to both @HomeRunBaker 's point about needing a unified and filled-out coaching staff, and also some potential addition-by-subtraction in taking away the possibility for Tatum to lobby for Grant's playing time. There was definitely some dysfunction during the Philly and Miami series with players trying to fill the (assistant) coaching vacuum by lobbying for specific lineup choices.


https://theathletic.com/4669565/2023/07/06/grant-williams-dallas-mavs-trade-boston-celtics/
Yep, good article. This confirms a lot of the speculation around here in regard to the Asst Coaching drain. CJM was operating with one arm tied behind his back based on IME announcement, timing, staff, & support.

Grant's deal will be dirt cheap in a couple of years with the CAP moving higher. BUT CJM was hesitant to go to Grant and the addition of KP really made GW expendable. I'm looking forward to more Hauser & the opponents' obsession with attacking him ;)

We still need a 4th Front Court player (4/5), unless they plan on sprinkling in Kornet a lot more during the regular season (which is fine)
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

Member
SoSH Member
Mar 26, 2005
30,825
On the GW side of things, it will be interesting to see how this choice works out for him. Yes, he has a couple more million in his pocket but if he thinks he's going to get a chance to show off an expanded offensive game, that's probably not going to happen with Luka and Kyrie (not that it would have happened in BOS either). Other thing to watch is how his defense is going to be without a team full of good defenders.

I am rooting for him though.
 

lexrageorge

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 31, 2007
18,244
The league's officials are all trying to figure out ways to schedule personal conflicts on top of each Mavericks game.

Funniest Grant Williams memory was the game I was at against the Kings in November. Grant was so busy explaining the finer details of NBA officiating that he ended up walking backwards into a Kings player and knocked him down, all the while never removing his focus from teaching the "student official", with the play continuing around him all this time.
 

benhogan

Granite Truther
SoSH Member
Nov 2, 2007
20,410
Santa Monica
On the GW side of things, it will be interesting to see how this choice works out for him. Yes, he has a couple more million in his pocket but if he thinks he's going to get a chance to show off an expanded offensive game, that's probably not going to happen with Luka and Kyrie (not that it would have happened in BOS either). Other thing to watch is how his defense is going to be without a team full of good defenders.

I am rooting for him though.
Yea I think he'll be a nice kick-out option (along with Curry), but that team defense will be sketchy. GW isn't fixing that.

Grant was a strong body that the skilled BIGs started easily shooting over. Calling him a Giannis/KD/Embiid stopper was a stretch, more like a pesky little brother. BUT a very good role player to have on a rookie contract.

Happy he got paid and was rational about Boston's cap/roster situation. I'll also be rooting for him (and Marcus)

The C's need to add some defense-first role players, unless they believe Brissett/Banton are that?
 

TripleOT

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 4, 2007
7,783
Yea I think he'll be a nice kick-out option (along with Curry), but that team defense will be sketchy. GW isn't fixing that.

Grant was a strong body that the skilled BIGs started easily shooting over. Calling him a Giannis/KD/Embiid stopper was a stretch, more like a pesky little brother. BUT a very good role player to have on a rookie contract.
Grant has a $50 million chin.

i’m guessing that Embiid and Giannis are both happy that they won’t have to play in playoff series against Grant Williams and Marcus Smart, unless it’s the Finals. They would be thrilled if Brad also trades Al Horford
 

lovegtm

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 30, 2013
12,273
....
We still need a 4th Front Court player (4/5), unless they plan on sprinkling in Kornet a lot more during the regular season (which is fine)
They should play Luke Kornet a lot more in the regular season because
- Luke Kornet is fine at basketball
- regular season wins just really don't matter beyond a certain point, and the Cs will rack up plenty of them
 

benhogan

Granite Truther
SoSH Member
Nov 2, 2007
20,410
Santa Monica
Nice length but still 19, figure he'll need a year in Maine. The C's will need NBA bodies to take punishment under the rim, since I'd rather have the JAYs defending on the perimeter.

I like the future optionality of Walsh, a defensive mindset is the only way he will ever see minutes on this roster. Plus his facial features remind me of another defensive savant (was Dennis in Texas 20yrs ago?)
 
Last edited:

Auger34

used to be tbb
SoSH Member
Apr 23, 2010
9,704
Well done.

I think they can teach Walsh to scream "HEY HEY HEY HEY HEY!!!!" but "I'll make them both" may take a few seasons.
But can Walsh fully get up to speed with the “give a speech in the huddle where clearly no one is listening to you but you keep talking” piece this fast? It’s a tall task
 

Jimbodandy

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 31, 2006
11,560
around the way
Nice length but still 19, figure he'll need a year in Maine. The C's will need NBA bodies to take punishment under the rim, since I'd rather have the JAYs defending on the perimeter.

I like the future optionality of Walsh, a defensive mindset is the only way he will ever see minutes on this roster. Plus his facial features remind me of another defensive savant (was Dennis in Texas 20yrs ago?)
Generally I'd agree with this, and you might be right. But...having a long wing defender around isn't a bad thing either. He'll start in Maine, but he could get more minutes than the usual 40-ish pick in the draft. If he shows the high motor everyone thinks he has and any BBIQ at all, he'd be a valuable bench guy for the 82.

edit: Dios mio @ 8'11" standing reach for a guy who's under 6'6" barefoot. He's not AD "all shoulders" wingspan. Dude has inspector gadget arms.
 

HomeRunBaker

bet squelcher
SoSH Member
Jan 15, 2004
30,391
They should play Luke Kornet a lot more in the regular season because
- Luke Kornet is fine at basketball
- regular season wins just really don't matter beyond a certain point, and the Cs will rack up plenty of them
Kornet is fine for 10-12 mpg on B2B, on long road trips when you go deeper into your rotation or as a guy to fill-in on management/injury days. He's an ideal 3rd big/10th man who will play hard, not bitch about minutes and be a fun locker room presence to be around.

Nice length but still 19, figure he'll need a year in Maine. The C's will need NBA bodies to take punishment under the rim, since I'd rather have the JAYs defending on the perimeter.

I like the future optionality of Walsh, a defensive mindset is the only way he will ever see minutes on this roster. Plus his facial features remind me of another defensive savant (was Dennis in Texas 20yrs ago?)
You never really know how a player will assimilate to the NBA game and all of its defensive nuances while taking a massive step up in competition and physicality as well as an opponents mental challenges/trash talk/veteran savvy tricks....until they are out there. I always say that SL will rarely show that a guy can play in the NBA, honestly Jeremy Lin was the only player who made me believe from a week in Vegas, however it can show a players flaws (Brandon Miller?). If Walsh shows well in SL and in training camp he may earn those Kornet-like circumstantial minutes early in the year to see what comes of it.
 

Jed Zeppelin

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 23, 2008
51,562
They should play Luke Kornet a lot more in the regular season because
- Luke Kornet is fine at basketball
- regular season wins just really don't matter beyond a certain point, and the Cs will rack up plenty of them
All caveats about correlation and causation aside, I remember at least one of the team’s best stretches of last season coinciding with a lot of Kornet minutes when he was racking up blocks and butterfly celebrations before TL got back.
 

bosockboy

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
20,048
St. Louis, MO
All caveats about correlation and causation aside, I remember at least one of the team’s best stretches of last season coinciding with a lot of Kornet minutes when he was racking up blocks and butterfly celebrations before TL got back.
Definitely; he’s more than serviceable big depth.
 

slamminsammya

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 31, 2006
9,428
San Francisco
Kornet is fine for 10-12 mpg on B2B, on long road trips when you go deeper into your rotation or as a guy to fill-in on management/injury days. He's an ideal 3rd big/10th man who will play hard, not bitch about minutes and be a fun locker room presence to be around.


You never really know how a player will assimilate to the NBA game and all of its defensive nuances while taking a massive step up in competition and physicality as well as an opponents mental challenges/trash talk/veteran savvy tricks....until they are out there. I always say that SL will rarely show that a guy can play in the NBA, honestly Jeremy Lin was the only player who made me believe from a week in Vegas, however it can show a players flaws (Brandon Miller?). If Walsh shows well in SL and in training camp he may earn those Kornet-like circumstantial minutes early in the year to see what comes of it.
Dragon bender also was an outstanding case of pooping his pants in summer league. Agree it can raise concerns but it doesn't work the other way.
 

BigSoxFan

Member
SoSH Member
May 31, 2007
47,272
Dragon bender also was an outstanding case of pooping his pants in summer league. Agree it can raise concerns but it doesn't work the other way.
Ha, yup. I watched Joe Forte in the Shaws Summer League and immediately lost my excitement over the pick.
 

HomeRunBaker

bet squelcher
SoSH Member
Jan 15, 2004
30,391
Dragon bender also was an outstanding case of pooping his pants in summer league. Agree it can raise concerns but it doesn't work the other way.
Bender is one of my proudest calls even before SL. Stiff and mechanical is not a way to make it in this league. Guy had the elasticity of a 65-year old as a teenager.
 

Cellar-Door

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 1, 2006
34,948
Honestly summer league shows you basically nothing on either end... sure some busts are bad in SL, but on the other hand, Steph Curry and Tim Duncan both guys notoriously terrible summer leagues (Duncan getting absolutely worked by Greg Ostertag was a thing.)
 

HomeRunBaker

bet squelcher
SoSH Member
Jan 15, 2004
30,391
He may have had a disappointing career but at least he made you proud.
Lol he really did. I have him being posterized by Thon Maker framed on my wall.

Edit: I don't really have it on my wall but the memory of that cold Wed night is etched in my brain forever.
 

slamminsammya

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 31, 2006
9,428
San Francisco
Honestly summer league shows you basically nothing on either end... sure some busts are bad in SL, but on the other hand, Steph Curry and Tim Duncan both guys notoriously terrible summer leagues (Duncan getting absolutely worked by Greg Ostertag was a thing.)
I don't think this is true. I recall a study showing the precision for busts on the very low end of summer league was pretty good. I can't remember how they measured performance and this was maybe five years ago.
 

slamminsammya

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 31, 2006
9,428
San Francisco
Tô refine the point, Duncan was outplayed by Ostertag but he still shot 60pct and has 12 points and 7 rebounds. The indicator is not "played worse than expected" but rather " was awful relative to any standard". I think the latter is pretty rare for top picks but tends to be a reliable indicator
 

GreenMonster49

Well-Known Member
Silver Supporter
SoSH Member
Jul 18, 2005
649
Kornet is fine for 10-12 mpg on B2B, on long road trips when you go deeper into your rotation or as a guy to fill-in on management/injury days. He's an ideal 3rd big/10th man who will play hard, not bitch about minutes and be a fun locker room presence to be around.
Kornet was basically used as TL-Lite for much of last season, both in terms of the games where he got the most minutes (TL sitting out) and in the plays run for him (mainly lobs to the rim). It was only very late in the season that Kornet was clearly encouraged to take that hook shot that came out of a post up.
 

Jimbodandy

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 31, 2006
11,560
around the way
I don't think this is true. I recall a study showing the precision for busts on the very low end of summer league was pretty good. I can't remember how they measured performance and this was maybe five years ago.
I remember that piece too. In general, if you suck in summer league, you almost certainly suck. There are exceptions. But if you're great in summer league, it really doesn't mean shit. Except maybe that at least we're not sure that you suck.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

Member
SoSH Member
Mar 26, 2005
30,825

Devizier

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 3, 2000
19,607
Somewhere
I remember Bender having a combine vertical that compared roughly to mine at that age. Not that anyone needs to be reminded but that is very much not good.
 

128

Member
SoSH Member
May 4, 2019
10,107
In the nicest way possible he really lays the blame on JM for the defensive shortcomings of the 23’ team - at least when compared to the previous year’s team under Udoka.
Yeah, he's really diplomatic while still getting his point across.

That said, Redick points out that for all of their breakdowns, the C''s still ranked No. 2 defensively in 2022-23, at least during the regular season.
 

kazuneko

Member
SoSH Member
Nov 10, 2006
2,845
Honolulu HI
Yeah, he's really diplomatic while still getting his point across.

That said, Redick points out that for all of their breakdowns, the C''s still ranked No. 2 defensively in 2022-23, at least during the regular season.
The interview really made you feel that if Udoka could have just kept his dick in his pants the Cs would have won the championship. Grant clearly seems to think that Udoka is a remarkably talented coach.
 

128

Member
SoSH Member
May 4, 2019
10,107
The interview really made you feel that if Udoka could have just kept his dick in his pants the Cs would have won the championship. Grant clearly seems to think that Udoka is a remarkably talented coach.
Grant was less enthusiastic about Stevens as a coach than I expected. Ime indeed sounded like the total package.
 

BringBackMo

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
1,330
Not getting the contract you want from your team and then seeing your playing time dramatically reduced during the stretch run and playoffs may tend to influence your evaluation of your team’s current brain trust.
 

128

Member
SoSH Member
May 4, 2019
10,107
Not getting the contract you want from your team and then seeing your playing time dramatically reduced during the stretch run and playoffs may tend to influence your evaluation of your team’s current brain trust.
Overall, Grant spoke positively about Mazzulla, while pointing out that Joe was more concerned with offense than Ime was. He just stated the obvious: That Joe is a promising young coach who was thrust into a less-than-ideal situation and figures to be much better as he gains more experience and had a full staff behind him.
 

BringBackMo

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
1,330
Overall, Grant spoke positively about Mazzulla, while pointing out that Joe was more concerned with offense than Ime was. He just stated the obvious: That Joe is a promising young coach who was thrust into a less-than-ideal situation and figures to be much better as he gains more experience and had a full staff behind him.
That sounds more than reasonable. Happy that Grant is getting paid and hoping he can find a productive role for himself in Dallas. Obviously an easy guy to root for.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 24, 2002
48,751
Overall, Grant spoke positively about Mazzulla, while pointing out that Joe was more concerned with offense than Ime was. He just stated the obvious: That Joe is a promising young coach who was thrust into a less-than-ideal situation and figures to be much better as he gains more experience and had a full staff behind him.
To me, there seemed to be some negative subtext about Mazzulla in the comments. That said, as @BringBackMo notes, this season Grant appeared to fall out of favor with the coaching staff and with the Porzingis deal everyone saw he was gone so none of this is surprising.

On another note, I will be surprised if Williams isn't successful beyond basketball. He's already connected to the cool-kid NBA crowd and just comes off as a person who operates at a high level.
 

Auger34

used to be tbb
SoSH Member
Apr 23, 2010
9,704
Not getting the contract you want from your team and then seeing your playing time dramatically reduced during the stretch run and playoffs may tend to influence your evaluation of your team’s current brain trust.
Not picking on you but it seems like literally every member of the team has diplomatically said that Ime was a better coach than Mazzulla.

Before the Mazzulla can do no wrong brigade jumps down my throat, Mazzulla was a 1st year coach without much experience so he will absolutely improve but it seems like Ime captured the locker room in a way Mazzulla didn’t
 

128

Member
SoSH Member
May 4, 2019
10,107
Not picking on you but it seems like literally every member of the team has diplomatically said that Ime was a better coach than Mazzulla.

Before the Mazzulla can do no wrong brigade jumps down my throat, Mazzulla was a 1st year coach without much experience so he will absolutely improve but it seems like Ime captured the locker room in a way Mazzulla didn’t
I got the sense that Ime's experience as an NBA player gave him credibility neither Stevens nor Mazzulla could match.