Jacksonity......or the Knick thread

[jon abbey]

The Knicks offered Denver Shumpert for Faried, Denver said no. This shouldn't even have made it to rumor stage today, Frank Isola is a hack. 
 
And Faried is an undersized PF who is a shitty defender without much offensive game. His motor is insanely good, he obviously is a great rebounder, but his upside is certainly debatable. 

 

[Brickowski]

Shaw doesn't like his game.

I guess Shaw wants to run the triangle. But Faried isn't the only misfit for that system on the Nuggets roster.

 

[PedroKsBambino]

This team is exactly who we thought it was after the playoffs last year---a team that has zero upside and a ton of problems.   Their summer was puzzling---I hate Bargnani less than others, but he's not a big asset and he's a tough fit defensively on this roster.  MWP was a terrible signing in all ways.   And the fundamental lack of any upside or projection, and a poor set of rotation fits, wasn't really addressed.
 
Chandler getting hurt is a tough break, but let's not kid ourselves---this team was a mess anyway.

 

[jon abbey]

Well, their 3rd best player missed the first five games (JR Smith), and if you combine that with Chandler's injury and Woodson's refusal to settle on anything resembling a rotation, I'm not sure I'd pass judgment on them yet, or at least not for those reasons.
 
I do think they're a disaster and I've already kind of written off this season (and the next couple), but more because of the organization than the personnel. The Chris Smith shenanigans and the Bargnani silliness have proved that even further, their problems all stem from Dolan and will likely never be solved while he is still around.

 

[PedroKsBambino]

Well, their 3rd best player missed the first five games (JR Smith), and if you combine that with Chandler's injury and Woodson's refusal to settle on anything resembling a rotation, I'm not sure I'd pass judgment on them yet, or at least not for those reasons.
 
I do think they're a disaster and I've already kind of written off this season (and the next couple), but more because of the organization than the personnel. The Chris Smith shenanigans and the Bargnani silliness have proved that even further, their problems all stem from Dolan and will likely never be solved while he is still around.

 
Counting on JR Smith is part of the problem, though....he was never even a decent bet to repeat what we saw last spring.  they had to sign him due to the fix they were in, but when you are counting on JR Smith as your second-best scorer and third best player you have a bad roster!

 

[jon abbey]

He was the sixth man of the year last year, he played the best ball of his life down the stretch for months, All-Star level. You're talking like it's sixty games into the season and he's massively regressed, when he's barely even seen the floor as of yet. A Chandler/Melo/JR top three is better than you're making it sound, assuming they are all playing at the top of their game simultaneously, which admittedly has yet to happen in real life. 
 
Do we have to do this again? We agree that they're fucked now, even if we don't exactly agree why. 

 

[jon abbey]

If they had a real owner and CAA didn't essentially run the team, I'd be mildly optimistic. Woodson should probably be fired (although it's hard to separate his actual coaching from what the organization forces him into), Bargnani should be marginalized (9th or 10th guy at best), and then I'd have a bit of hope. As it is, I do not. 

 

[jon abbey]

Also looking ahead, the likely massive Melo extension next summer is going to be disastrous. 

 

[bowiac]

This Faried-Shumpert trade looks like a lose-lose to me. 

 

[jon abbey]

Shumpert with one of the best 2-8 for 5 points games you'll see tonight, adding a career high 9 assists, 6 boards, 4 steals, a big blocked shot, no turnovers, and a +16 to lead NY to a back and forth tight win in ATL. 

 

[PedroKsBambino]

He was the sixth man of the year last year, he played the best ball of his life down the stretch for months, All-Star level. You're talking like it's sixty games into the season and he's massively regressed, when he's barely even seen the floor as of yet. A Chandler/Melo/JR top three is better than you're making it sound, assuming they are all playing at the top of their game simultaneously, which admittedly has yet to happen in real life. 
 
Do we have to do this again? We agree that they're fucked now, even if we don't exactly agree why. 

 
Smith has a long record of playing well for stretches and then flaking out. As I noted last spring, he did exactly that in the playoffs.  You are operating under the assumption this has changed and he is now a reliable guy.  I don't think so, but we can see how it plays out over time, that is fine with me.  We don't have to agree.
 
I don't think it is realistic to expect the top players to all play their best for long stretches simultaneously; I think in point of fact most teams would win most of their games games if their top few guys were playing at the top of their game together...even this year's crappy Celtics team wins games when that happens.   Instead of wishing for that situation to happen, I'd look for any team at 1) how realistic that expectation is 2) the degree to which the the specific players historically achieve that standard of play regularly 3) what the team can do if guys aren't playing their best.  When I do that with the Knicks, and did six months ago, I conclude they are likely not all that good a team.  You can disagree, and again we'll see how it plays out.

There's really no serious question they have both horrible ownership and questionable management; I think the roster reflects that and Lowe's article pretty clearly concludes the same.

 

[jon abbey]

 
You are operating under the assumption this has changed and he is now a reliable guy. 

 
I'm not, really. He'll never be reliable by the nature of his game and personality, same as Jamal Crawford. I could repeat what I actually mean, but we went through this exact same lengthy exchange last year, and I am much more down on the team now than I was then (because of the interference by management more than the personnel, although the first has begun to affect the second). 

Anyway, drawing many conclusions from November or even December NBA games is pretty silly. 

 

[PedroKsBambino]

 
I'm not, really. He'll never be reliable by the nature of his game and personality, same as Jamal Crawford. I could repeat what I actually mean, but we went through this exact same lengthy exchange last year, and I am much more down on the team now than I was then (because of the interference by management more than the personnel, although the first has begun to affect the second). 

Anyway, drawing many conclusions from November or even December NBA games is pretty silly. 

 
I suggest you go back and read your own posts on Smith last year and over the summer.
 
You are certainly moving towards my longstanding view of the Knicks; I'm certainly not judging anything based on two months, and if you are you should probably take a deeper look at the problems here.

 

[jon abbey]

Things are really spiralling out of control now in Knicks-land, and the schedule is about to get much harder. Indiana is going to beat them by 40 in the Garden tomorrow, which would be NY's sixth straight home loss already (!!!). 

 

[Grin&MartyBarret]

Presented without comment:
 
https://vine.co/v/hFKzz7EWXbD

 

[Grin&MartyBarret]

Despite last night's loss, that was one of the better games the Knicks have played this year. They were a stupid foul away from beating a very good team. 
 
Going forward, they need to find more minutes for Beno. I suspect Woodson will take those minutes from Prigioni, but in my opinion, he needs to be on the court instead of Felton. Felton's been shooting the ball terribly this year, and it's creating serious spacing issues. I'd like to see how the rotation looks without him in it, so hopefully this hip issue lingers for a while.

 

[Cellar-Door]

I enjoy the rumor that Woodson will be fired and replaced by a former player with no experience. I enjoy it even more when that player is Allan the Albatross Houston

 

[Grin&MartyBarret]

I enjoy the rumor that Woodson will be fired and replaced by a former player with no experience. I enjoy it even more when that player is Allan the Albatross Houston

 
Experience doesn't really matter when it comes to coaching. All that matters is that they're represented by CAA.

 

[PedroKsBambino]

I disagreed with those who thought this team was a legitimate contender, but even I did not think it was going to be this ugly.

 

[jon abbey]

Glad I didn't realize today's Nix game started at 1, evidently neither did they. 0-6 now in the hideous embarrassing orange monstrosity uniforms, 5-7 the rest of the time.

 

[Grin&MartyBarret]

The Knicks desperately need to upgrade the PG position, so I wonder if Mills will talk to Toronto about Lowry. Shumpert and Felton would likely get it done, and while a lot of Knicks fans would be angry about moving Shumpert for a slightly above average PG, I'd be happy just to have Felton off the team and get rid of his contract. I'm also not really sure how much value the Knicks will actually get for Shumpert. Lowry is better and younger than Felton, and I don't see any other easy path to upgrading the position.

 

[Devizier]

The Knicks desperately need to upgrade the PG position, so I wonder if Mills will talk to Toronto about Lowry. Shumpert and Felton would likely get it done, and while a lot of Knicks fans would be angry about moving Shumpert for a slightly above average PG, I'd be happy just to have Felton off the team and get rid of his contract. I'm also not really sure how much value the Knicks will actually get for Shumpert. Lowry is better and younger than Felton, and I don't see any other easy path to upgrading the position.

 
Doesn't that bring up the same problem with trading for Rondo? As in, the Knicks lack the assets to make a deal? I know Lowry's expiring status submarines his value, but the Knicks really don't have anything short of Anthony and Chandler, who are essential. 

 

[Grin&MartyBarret]

 
Doesn't that bring up the same problem with trading for Rondo? As in, the Knicks lack the assets to make a deal? I know Lowry's expiring status submarines his value, but the Knicks really don't have anything short of Anthony and Chandler, who are essential. 

 
You don't think Shumpert and Felton get it done? I think the market for a guy like Lowry should be pretty low, given the strength of the PG position around the league. I'd think Toronto would happily take a young guy with upside like Shumpert.

 

[bowiac]

 
You don't think Shumpert and Felton get it done? I think the market for a guy like Lowry should be pretty low, given the strength of the PG position around the league. I'd think Toronto would happily take a young guy with upside like Shumpert.

I think there's a strong disconnect between Knicks fans and other teams fans about Shumpert's value. As in, while he's certainly young, it's unclear to most other fans how much upside there is.
 
If I were the Raptors, and were faced with taking either Shumpert, or rolling the dice with a mid first round pick, I'd probably prefer the pick honestly. And while Lowry's value is down, that kind of return may still be attainable. 

 

[Grin&MartyBarret]

I think there's a strong disconnect between Knicks fans and other teams fans about Shumpert's value. As in, while he's certainly young, it's unclear to most other fans how much upside there is.
 
If I were the Raptors, and were faced with taking either Shumpert, or rolling the dice with a mid first round pick, I'd probably prefer the pick honestly. And while Lowry's value is down, that kind of return may still be attainable. 

 
He's a young, athletic player with a ton of defensive upside (though, he needs better coaching in this area) who can make corner 3s and is on a rookie contract. Nobody is claiming he's going to be a star, but I'm talking about trading him for a league average point guard on an expiring contract. Who is in the market for a PG that's going to give up a first round pick? Shumpert and Avery Bradley are guys that are in very similar spots in their career right now. Their value isn't as high as it's been in the past, but they also have clear skill sets that on the right team could be very useful.

 

[bowiac]

If you check the post I just made in the Trading Chips and Keepers thread, you'll see I agree with you about Shump and Bradley being in similar spots. The problem is I think both those guys are just a bit too limited to be useful players, and neither has the kind of off the charts athleticism to make them must haves for upside purposes. My issue is that neither player is yet all that strong defensively - they just show promise in that regard. They're both young, but when that's the main selling point you have, I'm not sure that's enough to land someone like Lowry.
 
He's an above average starting PG (this may be part of the issue - I think more of Lowry than you do) who doesn't make much money this year. Someone Miami could give up a first round pick for Lowry just to make a push for this year. In various other scenarios, I could see the Bulls, the Rockets, the Spurs, the Warriors or the Timberwolves also being interested, depending on a few factors. 

 

[jon abbey]

NY ties their worst 20 game start in franchise history at 5-15. Orange Pride!

 

[jon abbey]

I have stopped watching them almost entirely, they're not even especially enjoyable on the rare occasions they are playing well. I am now rooting for them to lose every game until Dolan sells the team, whether or not they have draft picks, even if it takes twenty years. 

 

[Murderer's Crow]

I have stopped watching them almost entirely, they're not even especially enjoyable on the rare occasions they are playing well. I am now rooting for them to lose every game until Dolan sells the team, whether or not they have draft picks, even if it takes twenty years.


I stopped 3 weeks ago. This year in NY sports has allowed me to pick up other hobbies, such as stabbing myself in the eye.

 

[Grin&MartyBarret]

I still watch when I have time, but admittedly, it's because I get a perverse joy out of seeing the results on the court mirror the off the court dysfunction of the ownership group and front office.
 
It's time to trade Carmelo, though I don't actually believe for a second that this franchise would ever be intelligent enough to make that move.

 

[Murderer's Crow]

I still watch when I have time, but admittedly, it's because I get a perverse joy out of seeing the results on the court mirror the off the court dysfunction of the ownership group and front office.

It's time to trade Carmelo, though I don't actually believe for a second that this franchise would ever be intelligent enough to make that move.


When is the last time any NY team traded a major superstar with a long term goal of improving the franchise?

 

[Grin&MartyBarret]

When is the last time any NY team traded a major superstar with a long term goal of improving the franchise?

 
Yep, I know it'll never happen. Hopefully Carmelo forces his way out, but I still expect him to sign an extension that makes him the highest paid player in the NBA.

 

[Murderer's Crow]

The really upsetting part about it is that I think New York fans would have no problem with it but ownership thinks all the fans in a big market will only watch a team with superstars.

 

[Grin&MartyBarret]

The really upsetting part about it is that I think New York fans would have no problem with it but ownership thinks all the fans in a big market will only watch a team with superstars.

 
Yep, and they think this despite the fact that they consistently sold out the Garden when they were trotting out David Lee, Wilson Chandler, and Darko.

 

[Grin&MartyBarret]

Knicks are apparently the "most promising" destination for Kyle Lowry. Felton would go to Toronto, with Shumpert and Hardaway Jr. rumored to be possibilities for the second piece. Toronto is apparently holding out for a draft pick, but the next pick the Knicks can trade is 2018.

 

[Grin&MartyBarret]

Lowry is a FA next summer. Would the Knicks really give up Shumpert or Hardaway for a potential GFIN rental when they have literally a zero % chance of doing anything this year if they even do make the playoffs? Yeah, nevermind...they absolutely would.

They don't really have a choice, unfortunately. They desperately need to upgrade the PG position, and they don't really have any path to doing so other than a trade, and Shumpert/Hardaway Jr. are the only guys they have with any value.
 
Edit: And for what it's worth, they don't own a draft pick until 2018, so going all in this year or trading Carmelo and/or Tyson are pretty much their only options.

 

[jon abbey]

And for what it's worth, they don't own a draft pick until 2018.

 
Just to clarify, they do have first rounders before then, but because of the Stepien rule, they're not allowed to trade another until 2018. If it wasn't for the Stepien rule, I'm sure they wouldn't own a first rounder until 2018, though.  :smithicide:

 

[Cellar-Door]

 
Just to clarify, they do have first rounders before then, but because of the Stepien rule, they're not allowed to trade another until 2018. If it wasn't for the Stepien rule, I'm sure they wouldn't own a first rounder until 2018, though.  :smithicide:

suprisingly the Nets are even worse. they traded 2014, 16,18 and they have swap provisions in 14, 15 and 17. There is good chance they won't use their own pick for as many as the next 5 years.

 

[beezer]

Reports on espn today seem to say that the Knicks are willing to part with 1 of the group (Shumpert, Hardaway, 1st round pick), but Toronto is demanding 2.  Lets see who caves.

 

[jon abbey]

Reports on espn today seem to say that the Knicks are willing to part with 1 of the group (Shumpert, Hardaway, 1st round pick), but Toronto is demanding 2.  Lets see who caves.

 
Dolan has supposedly already vetoed this deal (in any form?) because he doesn't want people to think that Ujiri ripped him off a third time (Melo, Bargnani).
 
Yes, seriously, this is how this franchise is run. It's disgusting.  

 

[bowiac]

Dolan has supposedly already vetoed this deal (in any form?) because he doesn't want people to think that Ujiri ripped him off a third time (Melo, Bargnani).
 
Yes, seriously, this is how this franchise is run. It's disgusting.  

In fairness, I wouldn't believe those reports. It's unnamed sources commenting on a man's state of mind.

The Knicks are in the Bill Simmons "Tyson-Zone", where any story about them is plausible, so there's not really much risk to running a story that doesn't pass the smell test.

 

[Sox and Rocks]

 
Just to clarify, they do have first rounders before then, but because of the Stepien rule, they're not allowed to trade another until 2018. If it wasn't for the Stepien rule, I'm sure they wouldn't own a first rounder until 2018, though.  :smithicide:

I know they don't own their pick in 2014, as it belongs to Denver.  However, I think they do own a pick in 2016, unless they have traded it elsewhere.  I believe Denver has the right to swap 1st rounders with them in 2016 (the Melo trade is the gift that keeps on giving!), but they should still own a 1st rounder unless they have sent it elsewhere as part of another trade. 

 

[knucklecup]

I know they don't own their pick in 2014, as it belongs to Denver.  However, I think they do own a pick in 2016, unless they have traded it elsewhere.  I believe Denver has the right to swap 1st rounders with them in 2016 (the Melo trade is the gift that keeps on giving!), but they should still own a 1st rounder unless they have sent it elsewhere as part of another trade. 

 
Why speculate when you can Ask Jeeves in 30 seconds?
 
2014 = no first, OKC second
2015 = first round pick that can't be traded due to Stepian Rule, no second
2016 = no first, top 37 protected second round pick but likely won't get it
2017 = first round pick that can't be traded due to Stepian Rule, no second
 
So unless the NBA comes up with the Dolan Rule, the only picks in play for the Knicks are the 2018, 2019 and 2020 picks.

 

[Cellar-Door]

 
Why speculate when you can Ask Jeeves in 30 seconds?
 
2014 = no first, OKC second
2015 = first round pick that can't be traded due to Stepian Rule, no second
2016 = no first, top 37 protected second round pick but likely won't get it
2017 = first round pick that can't be traded due to Stepian Rule, no second
 
So unless the NBA comes up with the Dolan Rule, the only picks in play for the Knicks are the 2018, 2019 and 2020 picks.

They can trade swaps like the Nets though. Of course that is really only valuable for teams that are sure playoff contenders and think the Knicks are going to the lottery. The value of a swap is of course much lower than the value of a pick outright, but it is probably worth something similar to or slightly above a second I'd guess.

 

[Grin&MartyBarret]

So, today the news came out that the Knicks inquired on Asik. I won't bother dissect that, because it's not a real possibility and Asik would just be walking into a situation where he was a backup 5 again, which is exactly why he asked out of Houston. But I do think it's absolutely hilarious that Dolan apparently gave the okay to inquire about acquiring Asik's poison pill, but matching Lin's identically structured deal 2 summers ago was completely out of the question. Anybody want to start a Kickstarter to try and buy the Knicks?

 

[bowiac]

So, today the news came out that the Knicks inquired on Asik. I won't bother dissect that, because it's not a real possibility and Asik would just be walking into a situation where he was a backup 5 again, which is exactly why he asked out of Houston. But I do think it's absolutely hilarious that Dolan apparently gave the okay to inquire about acquiring Asik's poison pill, but matching Lin's identically structured deal 2 summers ago was completely out of the question. Anybody want to start a Kickstarter to try and buy the Knicks?

Because of a quirk in how the Gilbert Arenas rule works, this is actually not crazy. If the Knicks had matched Lin's contract, then Lin's cap figure this year would be be his salary of $5,225,000, and next year would have matched the cap figure of $14,898,938. Because of the repeater tax, that would have had huge luxury tax implications.
 
However, when a team like the Knicks does not match the offer sheet given by a team like the Rockets under the Gilbert Arenas rule, while the salaries paid to the player are unchanged ($5,225,000 this year, $14,898,938 next year), the cap figures are instead amortized annually over the length of the contract to being $8,374,646. That's why Lin's cap figure doesn't match his salary anymore. This applies even if the player is subsequently traded, even back to the original team.
 
In other words, Asik's cap figure the next two years is going to be $8,374,646. So even though Dolan declined to match Lin's contract, he can trade for an identical contract at a substantial savings.

 

[OCST]

The really upsetting part about it is that I think New York fans would have no problem with it but ownership thinks all the fans in a big market will only watch a team with superstars.

 
If true*, this would be the worst misreading of a fan base by management, like, ever.
 
I am only a casual NBA fan, but I have lived in NYC for 20 years, and I followed the team a little more closely in its (relative) glory years in the early 90's, because the whole city did.
 
No player was more beloved in NYC by the fans at that time - and maybe since, on the Knicks or on any other New York team, than John Starks - precisely because he was not a big star, but was a blue-collar guy who played hard and who had kicked around several colleges and the CBA before finally making it with the Knicks.  Even after his stinker in Game 7 of the Finals against the Rockets, Starks is still universally loved in NYC because he was not a "star."
 
IMO, anyway.
 
*Not saying it's not true - just that I don't follow closely enough to have my own informed opinion on it.

 

[Grin&MartyBarret]

Because of a quirk in how the Gilbert Arenas rule works, this is actually not crazy. If the Knicks had matched Lin's contract, then Lin's cap figure this year would be be his salary of $5,225,000, and next year would have matched the cap figure of $14,898,938. Because of the repeater tax, that would have had huge luxury tax implications.
 
However, when a team like the Knicks does not match the offer sheet given by a team like the Rockets under the Gilbert Arenas rule, while the salaries paid to the player are unchanged ($5,225,000 this year, $14,898,938 next year), the cap figures are instead amortized annually over the length of the contract to being $8,374,646. That's why Lin's cap figure doesn't match his salary anymore. This applies even if the player is subsequently traded, even back to the original team.
 
In other words, Asik's cap figure the next two years is going to be $8,374,646. So even though Dolan declined to match Lin's contract, he can trade for an identical contract at a substantial savings.

 
That's right. Slipped my mind. 
 
The Lin thing is still idiotic though, since the Knicks are repeaters next year regardless. The amount they're paying in tax penalties differs slightly, but because of the Bargnani trade it's not much different than if they'd re-signed Lin

 

[jon abbey]

Oh msn, another alltime brainlock by the Knicks just now, really hoping it leads to another loss. NY is up 2 in OT over the dreadful Bucks, they start the possession with 38 seconds to go in the game. They dribble the clock down, miss a shot, Chandler tips it out to the perimeter, so they get possession back with 12 seconds still up 2...
 
except Bargnani inexplicably immediately shoots the open 3, misses, MIL gets the rebound, calls timeout, scores to tie it up and they're off to double OT. 

 

[swingin val]

So awesome. Love his confidence though

http://deadspin.com/andrea-bargnani-takes-one-of-the-stupidest-shots-in-nba-1486213056?utm_campaign=socialflow_deadspin_twitter&utm_source=deadspin_twitter&utm_medium=socialflow