Jacksonity......or the Knick thread

[Grin&MartyBarret]

The Knicks have two draft picks in the next three years. 
 
The 2015 first, that you mention. And a 2017 first.
 
Even if they get a Kevin Durant or Lebron James-caliber player with their 2015 pick, which is unlikely, they still have very few picks to build a team with.
 
Yes, they are the Knicks and can attract better talent than most teams. But they are also owned by James Dolan. 
 
I stand by my statement.
 

 
I'm not saying Carmelo's gonna leave and they're gonna win a championship 2 years later, I'm saying that I think it's going to be very difficult to build a true contender around Carmelo at that salary and doubly so when James Dolan is your owner. I think there's a really good chance that locking Carmelo into that deal and trying to build around him is going to lock the Knicks into a bunch of second round exits, and a cap reset and a lottery pick or two isn't the worst thing that could happen to this organization.

 

[jon abbey]

Anthony is never going to be the best player on a title team or a title-contending team, his best bet is either to be a #2 guy somewhere a la Wade or Westbrook, or to somehow luck into a situation a la Pierce/Gsrnett in their prime where you have co-best players who complement each other exceedingly well. 
 
And yeah, NY is probably better off trying to rebuild rather than sign Melo to a 5/129 deal into his decline years, but really none of it matters while Dolan is in charge. 

 

[ishmael]

Isn't the original sin of the Carmelo era the fact that with his trade they created a dysfunctional team in which their two highest paid stars game didn't mesh together, not to mention that the play of the one half of the duo declined to bellow average?

I think the original sin is Melo forcing the trade + extension from Denver as opposed to just playing out the season and signing with the Knicks as a free agent. The team could have used those extra draft picks and young guys his first few years in New York.

 

[Devizier]

 
I'm not saying Carmelo's gonna leave and they're gonna win a championship 2 years later, I'm saying that I think it's going to be very difficult to build a true contender around Carmelo at that salary and doubly so when James Dolan is your owner. I think there's a really good chance that locking Carmelo into that deal and trying to build around him is going to lock the Knicks into a bunch of second round exits, and a cap reset and a lottery pick or two isn't the worst thing that could happen to this organization.

 
I know we're not disagreeing here, but the Knicks are probably fucked for five plus years either way. At least with Anthony they will clear the bar of mediocrity. If they get lucky, they might be able to dump Bargnani for a decent player. Or if they are luckier still, Dolan sells the team to follow his life's dream of becoming drug buddies with Rob Ford. 
 
In either event, Anthony getting mid-career max dollars won't hurt the Knicks any more than Pierce's max contract hurt the Celtics.

 

[Tony C]

I think that's basically correct, there'd have to be some real luck involved for the Knicks to turn it around in either scenario. I think the question is less about the Knicks and more about 'Melo. If it's true he won't win in NY, will he go elsewhere?
 

I think the original sin is Melo forcing the trade + extension from Denver as opposed to just playing out the season and signing with the Knicks as a free agent. The team could have used those extra draft picks and young guys his first few years in New York.

 
Yep, that was the original sin, and going back to the question of whether or not he will go elsewhere, I think it was telling that he preferred leaving a very complementary Denver club for a stripped (partly of his doing) Knicks team.
 
My guess: he stays in NYC.

 

[jon abbey]

Knicks have been demolishing teams since Bargnani got hurt, four weak teams at home, but they won the first three by 62 points combined and are up big at the half again. 
 
The Dolan era summarized: he forced a trade with Toronto for Bargnani, then vetoed a trade with Toronto for Lowry.  :smithicide:

 

[Blacken]

The Dolan era summarized: he forced a trade with Toronto for Bargnani, then vetoed a trade with Toronto for Lowry.  :smithicide:

Can't have Masai get another one over on him!

 

[Grin&MartyBarret]

Knicks have been demolishing teams since Bargnani got hurt, four weak teams at home, but they won the first three by 62 points combined and are up big at the half again. 
 
The Dolan era summarized: he forced a trade with Toronto for Bargnani, then vetoed a trade with Toronto for Lowry.  :smithicide:

 
If only there had been some way to know that this team played better when they went small. . .

 

[bowiac]

Unless of course Bargnani's absence causes the Knicks to go on a winning streak before they throw in the towel. 

I'm gonna take a victory lap on this one.

 

[jon abbey]

If you could have a season-killing loss in game 52, that was it. Blowing a late lead to SAC to lose at home in OT, 19 road games left out of 30 and 2 games behind the 8 seed, that might be it for Woodson. 

 

[jon abbey]

Melo before that one:
 
“We’ve got to win. We have to win,” Carmelo Anthony said on Tuesday. “Nothing more than that. We have to win.”

 

[bowiac]

 
@HerringWSJ

NYK ranked 19th before his injury. MT @KennyDucey: Since Andrea Bargnani's injury, Knicks have the 4th best offensive rating in the NBA.

 

[NatetheGreat]

Word is that the Knicks are looking to trade for Jeremy Lin, and possibly willing to part with Shump and/or Hardaway Jr to make it happen. If this goes through, I will never stop laughing.

 

[Grin&MartyBarret]

They're also in on Darren Collison, probably for Shumpert.

 

[PedroKsBambino]

I'm gonna take a victory lap on this one.

 
The wins were against Boston, Lakers, Cleveland, and Charlotte, and they have gone 1-6 since then so we'll see how things play out. I do like how Carmelo is playing recently, and he's capable of carrying them to a bunch of wins in the east if he's on the top of his game.  

Also, as you likely noticed, it is the Nets (not the Knicks) who are looking like the improved team as the season has matured.

 

[bowiac]

They're also in on Darren Collison, probably for Shumpert.

I'm like the only one who likes this trade. I spent like 45 minutes talking about this with a couple of analysts, and they were telling me Collison is a marginal upgrade at best on Felton. I dunno, I think the guy can play, even if he can't defend. Given where the Knicks are, he's a real upgrade.

 

[PedroKsBambino]

I'm with you on this one---I think Shumpert is pretty fungible and Felton is really bad at this point (and inconsistent on top of that).

 

[Grin&MartyBarret]

Moving forward with Beno Udrih for Jordan Hamilton. Problems solved.

 

[Grin&MartyBarret]

Chris Broussard saying that if Shumpert's MCL tests okay, there's a potential deal on the table to send him to OKC for a 1st round pick.

 

[bowiac]

They should probably take that honestly.

 

[Grin&MartyBarret]

It actually fell apart, and Hamilton's heading to Houston now.

 

[Stu Nahan]

Felton got arrested on three counts of criminal possession of a weapon. Two of the charges are felonies and the other is a misdemeanor.

http://m.espn.go.com/nba/story?storyId=10514816&city=newyork

EDIT: 1010 WINS is reporting that Felton's estranged wife turned an unlicensed handgun belonging to Felton into police at the 20th Precinct on the Upper West Side yesterday. Felton turned himself in last night.

 

[PaulinMyrBch]

This is crazy.
 
First, what didn't he do in regards to the woman to prompt her to go get the gun and turn it in? This had to be the "or else" alternative and he didn't choose option A. 
 
Second, hopefully he had an attorney before he was speaking to the cops. Unlicensed firearm delivered by an estranged wife? What is going to tie him to this weapon other than her testimony? Although maybe she's got pictures, or he engraved his name on it, or something. 
 
The level of stupid criminal may be going up a notch.
 
Edit: And its NYC, any professional athlete that didn't pay attention to the Plaxico case living in NYC has no excuse.

 

[bowiac]

This is a good thing, right? Reasonable shot of getting out of his contract at least.

 

[Grin&MartyBarret]

A week ago they were insisting that anybody who wanted Shumpert had to take Felton's contract too, so I'd venture to guess that they'll seriously look into getting out of this deal.

 

[Granite Sox]

This is a good thing, right? Reasonable shot of getting out of his contract at least.

 
Like.

 

[Kliq]

Where do you guys fall on Melo as a player compared to the leagues other elite players? I was talking to my friends and they were freaking out about Anthony leaving (they are Knicks fans) and I was making the argument that you can't win a championship with him as your best player and that he wasn't even a top 10 player in the NBA. Now, I was trolling a little bit and he probably is a top 10 player, but where would you rank him? I think we can all agree that Lebron and KD are better, CP3 and Paul George I think are pretty much clearly superior players. After them? Not counting Rose or Kobe for obvious reasons, who do you think is better than Melo?
 
I understand that Top 10 player lists are kind of flawed and totally opinion based, but I like to think that if you swapped Melo for player X, would player X's team be better or worse with Melo? In addition, hypothetically the team that gets Melo also will get a player of equal quality to the player that Melo is taking the place of in the starting lineup. For instance, if we were comparing Melo and Tim Duncan, Melo would play SF and a player equal to the quality of Kawhi Leonard would slide into the PF slot. I do this in order to compare players that play different positions. So would the Spurs be better with Melo/Paul Millsap (similar to Leonard when it comes to WS) or with Duncan/Leonard?

 

[jon abbey]

Melo would be I think the best #2 guy in the league, or at least right up there with Westbrook and Blake Griffin. He's never going to be the top guy on a title team, but that just means he's not LeBron or Durant. 

 

[bowiac]

Kliq's comp is a weird one for me, in that I think Kawhi Leonard is secretly a star (like the 20th best player in the league or something), but I'd put Melo around the same place I put Kevin Love, like the 8th-12th best player in the league. Good enough to be the best player on a deep team, but not good enough to be a LeBron, Durant, or Chris Paul.
 
He's suffering a bit from people not noticing how much better a shooter he's become. When he came from the Nuggets, I wouldn't have had him as high, but he's a significantly better player now.

 

[Kliq]

I figured Leonard and Millsap were probable comps as far as the value they bring to each of their teams.
 
Anthony reminds me kind of like Dominique Wilkins. A great scorer, and if they are get a competent team around them they can get you 50 games, but they just are not good enough to get you past the teams with top5 players with great supporting casts.

 

[ifmanis5]

Another low in a long run of lows for the Knicks.
 
Despite a historically terrible conference and the second highest payroll in the league, they are only two games better than the tanking Celtics. They will likely miss the playoffs. Again. And certainly waste a prime year of Melo's career. Again. And their starting PG, whom they couldn't trade because no one wants him, is now likely looking at jail time. It's been said many time before but this franchise under Dolan has been a total catastrophe and not much relief in sight. This run of incompetence is right down there with the Yankees of the 1980's.

 

[ifmanis5]

And one more thing, the Knicks were on TNT last night, ESPN tonight and ABC for Sunday. Yes, I know all the reasons for this but fuck you NBA.

 

[LondonSox]

I figured Leonard and Millsap were probable comps as far as the value they bring to each of their teams.
 
Anthony reminds me kind of like Dominique Wilkins. A great scorer, and if they are get a competent team around them they can get you 50 games, but they just are not good enough to get you past the teams with top5 players with great supporting casts.

Who is good enough to beat a top five player with a great supporting cast, while playing with an average/competent team? That seems quite a high hurdle.

 

[Blacken]

Who is good enough to beat a top five player with a great supporting cast, while playing with an average/competent team? That seems quite a high hurdle.

LeBron, now, with his 2007 Cavaliers.

Other than that...crickets.

 

[ifmanis5]

Thank God the Knicks are on National TV again today. It's been a whole 36 hours since I've witnessed Pablo Prigioni jacking 3's down 20 in the 3rd qtr. Thanks NBA executives!

 

[Brickowski]

At this rate, the Knicks could have a better draft pick than the Celtics.  LOL, the Melo trade is a gift that just keeps on giving, and Denver says "Thank you!" 

 

[ifmanis5]

Well, Dolan would still own this mess but surely this would be a step in a positive direction?
 
 

[SIZE=10.5pt]DEVELOPING: Knicks offer Phil Jackson front office job, expect decision next week[/SIZE]

 
 
 
From the NY Daily News.

 

[jon abbey]

It is more likely that this board will change its name to Sons of Anthony Mason than Phil Jackson ever being stupid enough to take any kind of job under James Dolan. 

 

[jon abbey]

He should coach a team like Houston with elite talent that is a step away, like Doc Rivers with the Clippers this year. I'm sure McHale would be OK with moving to a front office job in favor of Mr. 13 Rings (11 coach/2 player). 

 

[Nick Kaufman]

Phil Jackson won't take on a situation as dire as New York's. Would love to see what he'd do with a ton of raw young talent like Philly is about to have.

 
I don;t think NY's situation is dire with all the cap space they re about to get. The trouble is dealing with an owner like Dolan.

 

[soxhop411]

SportsCenter ‏@SportsCenter  18m
THIS JUST IN: Phil Jackson is leaning toward taking job with Knicks to become president of basketball operations. (via @stephenasmith)
 
https://twitter.com/SportsCenter/status/442430791076020224

 

[Devizier]

He should coach a team like Houston with elite talent that is a step away, like Doc Rivers with the Clippers this year. I'm sure McHale would be OK with moving to a front office job in favor of Mr. 13 Rings (11 coach/2 player). 

 
I have a hard time envisioning Jackson living in Houston.

 

[Luis Taint]

Phil Jackson must have a gambling problem.

 

[Brickowski]

Presumably Jackson has the stature to require complete autonomy from Dolan.  If so, Knick fans should rejoice if he takes the position.

 

[ifmanis5]

The knock on Phil's coaching career is that he inherited Michael and Kobe so all he had to do was sit back and collect rings. Now is his chance to build something from the ground up and prove us all wrong.....
 
 
 
.... can't wait until he fails.

 

[ifmanis5]

It is more likely that this board will change its name to Sons of Anthony Mason than Phil Jackson ever being stupid enough to take any kind of job under James Dolan. 

Get ready to make that change.

 

[jon abbey]

I still don't really believe it, no matter what guarantees Jackson gets, he will still be working for Dolan. Maybe he has gotten just that bored in retirement, but I won't believe it until I see the press conference. 

 

[mpx42]

For Dolan, Thomas is still the executive with whom everyone else pales. Well beyond Thomas' firing in 2008, Dolan made multiple bids to convince underlings that Thomas needed to be rehired. In one episode described to Yahoo Sports, Dolan had become exasperated with team officials who didn't want a second Garden act for Thomas. With overwhelming evidence to the contrary being presented to Dolan, he finally blurted out: "Isiah is a basketball genius!"

http://t.co/XVkr0v6NG2
 
From a column about Phil Jackson and Dolan, but that's the quote that made me speechless.

 

[jon abbey]

Woj nails it, as usual: 
 
http://sports.yahoo.com/news/why-a-phil-jackson-knicks-marriage-would-eventually-end-in-an-ugly-divorce-220759038.html

 

[jon abbey]

NY has to be the only team in the league who has lost to all of BOS/ORL/PHI/MIL this season, currently rocking a 6-5 combined record against those four and struggling with the woeful Sixers again tonight.