Jacksonity......or the Knick thread

[jon abbey]

Seth Rosenthal is so consistently insightful/hilarious, I think he might be my single favorite person writing about sports today, anywhere. This one is a classic, even by his high standards:
 
http://www.postingandtoasting.com/2013/12/18/5226294/knicks-107-bucks-101-2ot-the-knicks-just-painted-their-masterpiece

 

[ifmanis5]

 

[jon abbey]

And another, check out the 'D' on Brandon Knight who was in the midst of a career high 36 point game:
 

 
http://www.grantland.com/blog/the-triangle/post/_/id/86687/lol-knicks

 

[jon abbey]

The Knicks are making a real run at the saddest/funniest franchise in US sports these days. Today's news is that they will be staying together in a hotel before tomorrow's noon game at home. If you're asking 'why is a professional team being treated like 5th graders on a school trip?', clearly you missed their no-show against BOS a couple of Sundays back, far from the first time it's happened. 
 
Tomorrow should bring the news about JR Smith sneaking out after curfew and being photographed in clubs, go Knicks!

 

[Sox and Rocks]

The Knicks are making a real run at the saddest/funniest franchise in US sports these days. Today's news is that they will be staying together in a hotel before tomorrow's noon game at home. If you're asking 'why is a professional team being treated like 5th graders on a school trip?', clearly you missed their no-show against BOS a couple of Sundays back, far from the first time it's happened. 
 
Tomorrow should bring the news about JR Smith sneaking out after curfew and being photographed in clubs, go Knicks!

And they still lost.  Perhaps they should try a different hotel next time

 

[jon abbey]

They'll need one that stops them from getting outrebounded 56-29, even with no Gasol, Chandler with a whopping three defensive boards.

 

[jon abbey]

I have stopped watching them almost entirely, they're not even especially enjoyable on the rare occasions they are playing well. I am now rooting for them to lose every game until Dolan sells the team, whether or not they have draft picks, even if it takes twenty years. 

 
It's been a fun few weeks to watch Knicks games from this perspective. We even got our first 'FIRE DOLAN' chant at MSG that I'm aware of, late in the OKC embarrassment. Also, rooting against Bargnani>>>>>rooting for him. 

Our heros with another hilarious come from ahead loss tonight against TOR, blown out 29-12 in the 4th. They are now a hard to believe 4-12 at home, the second worst home record in the league (just ahead of MIL). They were 31-10 at MSG last year, for comparison.

 

[knucklecup]

Toure Murry played 27 minutes tonight and Woodson commended him after the game stating "at this point" he's going to play the guys who play hard.

Kenyon Martin also asked to come off the floor but at this point in his career, I'm not sure that's terribly uncommon for him (speculation).

What I find most frustrating about the Knicks, are the unrealistic expectations people had for them coming into the season.

This Celtics season has been incredibly enjoyable to me; had I gone into the season irrationally, like Knicks fans and media, the poor play would be far more disheartening.

I really just don't get it. Oh my god! They lost to OKC! How Cousy they!

Edit: My phone autocorrects could to Cousy #celticsfanproblems

 

[Murderer's Crow]

I don't think a playoff team was an unreasonable expectation. Nobody though they'd be one of the worst teams in the league.

 

[knucklecup]

While I agree with that, the outcome we're seeing play out was far more likely than an actual meaningful playoff run.

 

[Grin&MartyBarret]

This Knicks season is hilarious. Today they cut Chris Smith to make room for Jeremy Tyler, a move that makes perfect sense, but led to JR Smith posting this on Instagram: http://instagram.com/p/ij3-rfNfHS/#.

 

[jon abbey]

The most amazing thing about this situation is that it's been obvious since the summer that NY only signed his brother as part of his deal, which the NBA should really come down hard on, but seemingly (understandably) they just feel bad for the pitiful Knicks, so they let it go. 

 

[Grin&MartyBarret]

Meanwhile, DJ Cooper, the point guard they actually wanted to sign but "couldn't" offer a guaranteed contract to, is leading one of the best teams in Greece in points and assists.

 

[TheYaz67]

A quick peak at their upcoming schedule (on the road for SA, HOU & DAL, back home for DET & MIA) makes me think they will be lucky to win more than one game out of their next 5....

 

[Grin&MartyBarret]

Nice to see Shumpert put together a good game. He's looked pretty lost this year, and you could tell the constant trade rumors and early hooks were wearing on him. Hopefully last night's 27 points on 10-13 shooting, including two clutch shots in the final minute will give him some confidence and something to build on.

 

[PedroKsBambino]

While I agree with that, the outcome we're seeing play out was far more likely than an actual meaningful playoff run.

Yup. This team topped out last year, it just took people different amounts of time to realize it.

 

[Grin&MartyBarret]

Yup. This team topped out last year, it just took people different amounts of time to realize it.


Did anybody predict a meaningful playoff run this offseason? The general consensus was that the Bargnani trade was a disaster that hurt them short and long term, and that the rest of the east had gotten better. Most expected them to make a first round exit.

 

[PedroKsBambino]

Last spring/summer people were arguing the Knicks had a bunch of upside left, and some were arguing they were still a legit contender this year...not saying you were one of those, but there was a lot more optimism than was warranted, and a lot more than one and done.

Bargnani trade a bit of a funny thing to cite---it's least of the problems isn't it?

 

[Grin&MartyBarret]

Last spring/summer people were arguing the Knicks had a bunch of upside left, and some were arguing they were still a legit contender this year...not saying you were one of those, but there was a lot more optimism than was warranted, and a lot more than one and done.

Bargnani trade a bit of a funny thing to cite---it's least of the problems isn't it?


Admittedly, I haven't taken the time to rank the Knicks problems, but Bargnani hasn't been good and presents a lot of issues on the court. He's a terrible help defender, which gets amplified in Woodson's switch heavy scheme, and he was acquired to help stretch the floor but is shooting a career worst 28% from 3. Certainly the Knicks have a ton of problems, but Bargnani's is a major one.

 

[Devizier]

I've always hated Bargnani and was baffled at the general optimism that his trade was received with.

 

[bowiac]

Bargnani trade a bit of a funny thing to cite---it's least of the problems isn't it?

We went back and forth about this before, but suffice to say there is a school of thought that Bargnani is one of the worst players in the NBA, and the Knicks are playing him 30 minutes per game. Now you disagree, and think Bargnani is a useful piece, but you can see why those of us who think Bargnani is unplayably awful would think he's a major part of the problem, right?

 

[nighthob]

Bargnani trade a bit of a funny thing to cite---it's least of the problems isn't it?

 
Toronto regarded him as a cancer on and off the court and wanted rid of him. And managed to get the Knicks to cough up a #1 for the right to pay and play him. He hasn't shot well in a few years, provides no other useful offensive skills and is a one man wrecking crew on defense. Unfortunately not in a good way. It was a baffling trade at the time, with very little upside and a world of downside.

 

[PedroKsBambino]

We went back and forth about this before, but suffice to say there is a school of thought that Bargnani is one of the worst players in the NBA, and the Knicks are playing him 30 minutes per game. Now you disagree, and think Bargnani is a useful piece, but you can see why those of us who think Bargnani is unplayably awful would think he's a major part of the problem, right?

That's not quite my view, of course, which presumably you realize. I have said several times in different contexts that his game has major problems, and I don't like it or his contract, and also that the actual nba is a little more complex than a single metric, too. Guys like Bargnani (or Gay or Crawford until Stevens) who are inefficient and limited but have certain skills and attributes are easy to write off as useless in the aggregate, but I think both core analytics (remember, Bill James started with "value what guys do, not what they lack") and coaching/role are a big part of the picture. This years Knicks team needed a bunch if things and while not likely to work, picking up Bargnani at least acknowledged that reality. As was always likely, he's no savior and given their other issues he's asked to do more than makes sense. But I've been consistent that this years Knicks team wasn't going to be very good, so attributing as much of the decline to him as you guys seem to is, for me, working from a false baseline for the team.

This is not a defense of Bargnani, only a note that fixating on him is a little like focusing in Nick Punto when discussing the 2012 Sox. The easiest whipping boy is not necessarily the biggest problem.

 

[bowiac]

That's not quite my view, of course, which presumably you realize. I have said several times in different contexts that his game has major problems, and I don't like it or his contract, and also that the actual nba is a little more complex than a single metric, too. Guys like Bargnani (or Gay or Crawford until Stevens) who are inefficient and limited but have certain skills and attributes are easy to write off as useless in the aggregate, but I think both core analytics (remember, Bill James started with "value what guys do, not what they lack") and coaching/role are a big part of the picture. 

I honestly don't see a difference between this, and what I wrote (that you think he's "a useful piece"). Regardless of semantics, this is still where we disagree. Unlike Crawford or Gay, who I agree are not very good players in the aggregate, but are useful pieces if deployed correctly, I do not see the NBA skillset that Bargnani brings to the court. There is a very vast gulf between those two worlds.
 
 

This is not a defense of Bargnani, only a note that fixating on him is a little like focusing in Nick Punto when discussing the 2012 Sox. The easiest whipping boy is not necessarily the biggest problem. 

 
This is wrong. I agree focusing on Chris Smith would be like focusing on Nick Punto - a major whipping boy, but not really a key issue. Nick Punto had 148 PA of 6166 on the Red Sox. His suck was about 2.4% of available plate appearances, and 0% of the innings pitched. Punto just didn't have the opportunity to drag down a team like Bargnani has. Bargnani has been on the court for about 61.8% of all the minutes the Knicks have played. His contribution to the Knicks suck vastly exceeds Punto's contribution simply because he's played vastly more.
 
He is 2nd on the Knicks in minutes and has no NBA level skills. At what point can someone be the biggest problem? 

 

[Grin&MartyBarret]

That's not quite my view, of course, which presumably you realize. I have said several times in different contexts that his game has major problems, and I don't like it or his contract, and also that the actual nba is a little more complex than a single metric, too. Guys like Bargnani (or Gay or Crawford until Stevens) who are inefficient and limited but have certain skills and attributes are easy to write off as useless in the aggregate, but I think both core analytics (remember, Bill James started with "value what guys do, not what they lack") and coaching/role are a big part of the picture. This years Knicks team needed a bunch if things and while not likely to work, picking up Bargnani at least acknowledged that reality. As was always likely, he's no savior and given their other issues he's asked to do more than makes sense. But I've been consistent that this years Knicks team wasn't going to be very good, so attributing as much of the decline to him as you guys seem to is, for me, working from a false baseline for the team.

This is not a defense of Bargnani, only a note that fixating on him is a little like focusing in Nick Punto when discussing the 2012 Sox. The easiest whipping boy is not necessarily the biggest problem.

 
Not to put you on the spot or anything, but what are the list of Knicks on-the-court problems that dwarf Bargnani's play and put him on par with Punto? I'm not just out here looking for an easy whipping boy, nor was I at any point high on this team's prospects. I'm just having trouble envisioning what a list of Knicks on-court problems looks like if Andrea Bargnani's near the bottom.

 

[PedroKsBambino]

As noted elsewhere, the lack of depth is a major part of Bargnani being asked to do too much for his limited skills. But it's not his fault that their other options are even worse---his salary was effectively added to the top rather than replacing better players.

They also have a huge need for scoring, or more precisely for offensive players the other team needs to account for, beyond Carmelo.

Among others, those are pretty obviously exponentially bigger issues than Bargnani, seems to me.

He really is Nick Punto, though forced into a larger role by things outside of his control.

 

[Grin&MartyBarret]

As noted elsewhere, the lack of depth is a major part of Bargnani being asked to do too much for his limited skills. But it's not his fault that their other options are even worse---his salary was effectively added to the top rather than replacing better players.

They also have a huge need for scoring, or more precisely for offensive players the other team needs to account for, beyond Carmelo.

Among others, those are pretty obviously exponentially bigger issues than Bargnani, seems to me.

He really is Nick Punto, though forced into a larger role by things outside of his control.

 
This is the precise reason that the Knicks traded for Bargnani.

 

[Nick Kaufman]

If Bargnani has limited skills, then isn't he overpaid and thus an inefficient use of resources?

If the Knicks have a lack of depth then isn't it a mistake to pay the opportunity cost of trading for Bargnani?

 

[bowiac]

The only thing I'll add, is that if Nick Punto was batting 2nd everyday that year (plus you know, pitched about 150 innings, since individual baseball players matter less than individual basketball players), then I think it'd be fair to say he'd be the single largest problem on the field with the 2012 Red Sox.
 
In a broader sense, the biggest problem with the Knicks is the management and ownership of course.

 

[Grin&MartyBarret]

4-1 in the New Year following a good win last night. Most promising aspect of last night's win, however, was that JR Smith didn't get off the bench once. Right now, they're a much improved team with his minutes being split between Shumpert, Hardaway, and Murray.

 

[bowiac]

Going to be favored in 9 of their next 11 it looks like.

 

[DannyDarwinism]

I've seen Woj break out the knives before, but his take on JR Smith makes Shank's Jose Offerman rant look warm and fuzzy by comparison.  

 

[Grin&MartyBarret]

I've seen Woj break out the knives before, but his take on JR Smith makes Shank's Jose Offerman rant look warm and fuzzy by comparison.  

 
Well, he did untie somebody's shoe.

 

[Grin&MartyBarret]

Amazingly, if the playoffs started today, the Knicks would be in as the 8 seed. They're now 6-1 in the New Year, and have played several of those games without Tyson Chandler. The rest of this week includes some tough tests, including Charlotte on the road as the second half of a home-road back-to-back, and Indiana and the Clippers Friday.

 

[PedroKsBambino]

This is the precise reason that the Knicks traded for Bargnani.


Proving my point, obviously--their other options are even worse than he is and everyone knows it. That he's not a very good solution doesn't change that the problem pre-exists and goes well beyond him.

No question his contract is atrocious---but Knicks cap situation such that it's not actually a real factor for them.

 

[Grin&MartyBarret]

Proving my point, obviously--their other options are even worse than he is and everyone knows it. That he's not a very good solution doesn't change that the problem pre-exists and goes well beyond him.

No question his contract is atrocious---but Knicks cap situation such that it's not actually a real factor for them.

 
Sorry, I really don't understand what the point you're getting at here. You acknowledge that a) one of the Knicks' biggest issues is their lack of a reliable second scorer and b) that Bargnani was acquired to fill that role and hasn't been a good solution. So, what exactly is odd about the fact that I cited the Bargnani trade as a problem?

 

[Tony C]

With things going south again, Doolittle has a piece up about the Bulls as a potential trade partner for Anthony. http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/10322192/could-bulls-trade-fit-knicks-carmelo-anthony-nba

 

though Anthony has played the best basketball of his career in New York, the paradigm has shifted. His time with the Knicks has demonstrated what should have been apparent all along, namely that an ultra-high-usage scoring star with questionable efficiency is not the kind of player who turns mediocrity into excellence.
Nevertheless, if the Knicks shop Anthony, they will be looking for the kind of assets they sent away to Denver in the Melo trade. But for a team to send that kind of haul New York's way, it would have to view Anthony as the Knicks did three years ago -- as a franchise savior. It's unlikely there are many, or any, general managers across the NBA who view Anthony in that light any more. 
The hypothetical team that now takes an interest in Anthony will view him as a final piece (think Pippen, not Jordan). The offers the Knicks could expect will be predicated on this fundamental: No contending team will want to send out so many assets for Anthony that it crumbles the foundation already in place. The Knicks may find a lot of dead ends if they go searching for a trade partner.
This is of course complicated by the fact that Anthony can opt out of his contract after the season, so any team dealing for him would want assurances that he'd be more than a two-month rental. In fact, after establishing the various criteria that seems essential for any potential Anthony trade, I was left with the conclusion that there is really only one logical trade destination for Melo: the Chicago Bulls.
 

 
It seems to me that the Knicks being what they are, they only trade Anthony if he goes to them and says he will not be re-signing. If he does do that, then the Knicks will have to get what the can in what will be a bit of a meager market. The Bulls certainly make sense -- in a down year, so so can give up assets, but look forward to a Rose-Anthony pairing next year along with the sort of complementary players that make a great combo with a score first guy like Anthony. The other team that strikes me as being a good fit for Anthony is the Clippers, as they are the weakest at the 3 and could slip Anthony in there. There'd be some competition for the ball, but the real problem is that in a compete now mode I don't see a trade match - Dudley and Barnes and picks wouldn't be too attractive to the Knicks, never mind if the salaries match up.
 
Any other possibilities in the event that the Knicks go into trade mode with Anthony?

 

[Grin&MartyBarret]

With things going south again, Doolittle has a piece up about the Bulls as a potential trade partner for Anthony. http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/10322192/could-bulls-trade-fit-knicks-carmelo-anthony-nba
 
 
It seems to me that the Knicks being what they are, they only trade Anthony if he goes to them and says he will not be re-signing. If he does do that, then the Knicks will have to get what the can in what will be a bit of a meager market. The Bulls certainly make sense -- in a down year, so so can give up assets, but look forward to a Rose-Anthony pairing next year along with the sort of complementary players that make a great combo with a score first guy like Anthony. The other team that strikes me as being a good fit for Anthony is the Clippers, as they are the weakest at the 3 and could slip Anthony in there. There'd be some competition for the ball, but the real problem is that in a compete now mode I don't see a trade match - Dudley and Barnes and picks wouldn't be too attractive to the Knicks, never mind if the salaries match up.
 
Any other possibilities in the event that the Knicks go into trade mode with Anthony?

 
It would basically be a repeat of the process that Denver went through when they traded Anthony, in that Carmelo would hold a lot of the cards and could control his destiny by letting it be known where he'd be willing to re-sign. I suspect that there aren't many places that fit his needs, which would limit the returns for the Knicks substantially. For instance, I could see a deal with Detroit centered around Monroe as making sense for both teams, but if Anthony's unwilling to sign in Detroit, which is a real possibility, those discussions go nowhere. For that reason alone, Chicago may make the most sense.

 

[Tony C]

Wasn't there something about Lala (is that really his wife's name? Seriously?) only wanting to be in L.A. or NY for career reasons?

 

[bowiac]

Well, Bargnani's "dunk" cost him a ligament. He's out for a while. I'm curious if the Knicks might finally decide even a "no draft pick" rebuilding process is better than this. Something like Chandler to the Thunder for Perkins and Steven Adams, or a pick. 
 
Unless of course Bargnani's absence causes the Knicks to go on a winning streak before they throw in the towel. 

 

[reggiecleveland]

 

[Nick Kaufman]

To be fair, it wasn't a Bennett-like unorthodox pick. You could have quibbles about him, but MKG was considered the safe pick if anything.

 

[PedroKsBambino]

 
Sorry, I really don't understand what the point you're getting at here. You acknowledge that a) one of the Knicks' biggest issues is their lack of a reliable second scorer and b) that Bargnani was acquired to fill that role and hasn't been a good solution. So, what exactly is odd about the fact that I cited the Bargnani trade as a problem?

 
Just to close the loop here--Bargnani was an imperfect solution to a huge problem that predated him. I don't think many people who follow the team even a little would disagree with either part of that.   So, I have not defended the deal in the abstract, only noted that the team with him is more likely to do what they wanted this year (convince Carmelo to stay, primarily) than without him.
 
To be clear, that's true because their roster and other options were pretty poor, not because Bargnani was all that great.    I've been very down on this roster since last spring and I think that has all borne out to be true.

 

[triniSox]

 
"I definitely think he will stay," La La Anthony said in an interview with Bravo TV's "Watch What Happens Live." "I know that he wants to stay, and I support him wherever he wants to go.
"Listen, I used to live in Denver with him. If I can live in Denver, I can live anywhere. I just want him to be happy."

http://espn.go.com/new-york/nba/story/_/id/10361206/la-la-anthony-says-carmelo-anthony-definitely-re-sign-new-york-knicks

 

[Kliq]

It must really suck to be a Knicks fan. They don't have a chance of contending this year, and if they tie up the rest of the money with Anthony, I fear that they are not going to contend for anytime in the near future. I just don't believe in Melo enough that they can contend with him as their number one player. If I'm a Knicks fan, I'm praying that Melo leaves and the team is able to rebuild properly (although without draft picks that could be an issue). Unfortunately, I think Dolan & Co. will sign Melo to the max and then keep NY in purgatory for the rest of the decade.

 

[Devizier]

If Melo leaves, the Knicks are extra fucked. The draft will not be their salvation.

 

[Grin&MartyBarret]

If Melo leaves, the Knicks are extra fucked. The draft will not be their salvation.

 
Eh. If Melo leaves--and for the record, I don't think he's going to--it won't be hard for me to see the positive side of not having to make him the league's highest paid player. If he leaves, they'll be awful next year, get a high draft pick and and go into the 2015/2016 season with whoever that likely lottery pick is and 50 million dollars in cap space. 

 

[Nick Kaufman]

To be fair to Carmelo, is he the problem when the Knicks pay through the nose for Amare, Bargnani and JR Smith? Isn't the original sin of the Carmelo era the fact that with his trade they created a dysfunctional team in which their two highest paid stars game didn't mesh together, not to mention that the play of the one half of the duo declined to bellow average?

Can't a Knick fan hope that the team somehow will spend its money wiser and at least build a roster that works to play on Melo's strengths and weaknesses?

 

[Grin&MartyBarret]

To be fair to Carmelo, is he the problem when the Knicks pay through the nose for Amare, Bargnani and JR Smith? Isn't the original sin of the Carmelo era the fact that with his trade they created a dysfunctional team in which their two highest paid stars game didn't mesh together, not to mention that the play of the one half of the duo declined to bellow average?

Can't a Knick fan hope that the team somehow will spend its money wiser and at least build a roster that works to play on Melo's strengths and weaknesses?

 
No, it's not Anthony's fault, and I'm certainly not trying to imply that. I'm just saying that I don't think it's the end of the world if he leaves, and at the very least their cap mess would resolve itself a season after he left.
 
I don't think he's going to leave, and I think the Knicks should and will try to build a contender around him with the cap space they'll have when Amare, Chandler, and Bargnani expire. That is the best course of action and the most likely course of action. But if he leaves, it won't be the end of the world, and I think it's very reasonable to ask if it's even possible to build a contender around Anthony if he's got the highest cap figure in the league.

 

[Devizier]

The Knicks have two draft picks in the next three years. 
 
The 2015 first, that you mention. And a 2017 first.
 
Even if they get a Kevin Durant or Lebron James-caliber player with their 2015 pick, which is unlikely, they still have very few picks to build a team with.
 
Yes, they are the Knicks and can attract better talent than most teams. But they are also owned by James Dolan. 
 
I stand by my statement.
 

 
Eh. If Melo leaves--and for the record, I don't think he's going to--it won't be hard for me to see the positive side of not having to make him the league's highest paid player. If he leaves, they'll be awful next year, get a high draft pick and and go into the 2015/2016 season with whoever that likely lottery pick is and 50 million dollars in cap space.