2014-15 Trade Deadline Thread

[nighthob]

Cap space? The C's aren't trading Thornton or Bass to take on money for next year. If they're sent out, it will be for expiring contracts. 

That was the point of my earlier remarks. There are very few teams that have a need for Thornton, and trading him is going to require them taking back 2016 salary. So he doesn't have negative value, his value just isn't high enough to Boston to be worth trading. HRB was claiming that Boston would need to include draft picks to move an expiring deal, which is just silly.
 
That being said, I still expect him to get bought out at some point.

 

[HomeRunBaker]

That was the point of my earlier remarks. There are very few teams that have a need for Thornton, and trading him is going to require them taking back 2016 salary. So he doesn't have negative value, his value just isn't high enough to Boston to be worth trading. HRB was claiming that Boston would need to include draft picks to move an expiring deal, which is just silly.
 
That being said, I still expect him to get bought out at some point.

That's not what I was implying. We actually agree that to move either player the trade partner will be dumping salary for next year. Moving Bass or Thornton, two expiring deals themselves, to take on 2016 salary to grab another 2nd rounder is imo negative value.

If we could straight up swap out expirings for another expiring to add a 2nd rounder then that 2nd rounder would be the asset. There isn't anyone who is going to take on either player and give up a 2nd rounder without dumping salary on us for next year (as you also state).

Prince is also in that category. These players will be bought out before they are traded as they don't carry positive trade value.

 

[nighthob]

There aren't a lot of teams with six million dollar expiring contracts sitting at the end of their bench. However I disagree on Prince, because I think he can be dealt, he's a lot more use than Thornton.

 

[ElcaballitoMVP]

To complicate the Thornton issue is Ray Allen, holding about 8 teams hostage until he makes up his mind. 

Then, when you look at the teams in pursuit of Ray (ATL, SAS, CLE, MIA, GSW, CHI, WAS, LAC) none of them have the expiring contracts we'd want/they'd be willing to give up that would match up with Thornton's salary once the losers of the Ray pursuit move on to other options.
 
The only teams I'm coming up with as potential matches are: 
POR- Something like Thomas Robinson/Claver/Barton works, but hurts their depth for a minor upgrade at backup SG. Not likely. 
OKC- doesn't really fit with Waiters/Morrow already at SG, but have Perk's expiring to dangle. Again, not a great fit. Maybe a Perk/Roberson/Smith/Jerrett for Thornton/Bass deal? 
TOR- Is Thornton an upgrade over Landry Fields? Fields plus old Steimsma works and saves the C's some money for the rest of the season. 
 
I'm not seeing many other teams who could take on his contract and have expirings to offer. If Danny can find a match without bringing back more than $2-3M in '16 salary commitments, I'll be impressed. 

 

[Dan to Theo to Ben]

Charlotte Hornets General Manager Rich Cho announced today that the team has acquired guards Mo Williams and Troy Daniels, along with cash considerations, from the Minnesota Timberwolves in exchange for guard Gary Neal and Miami’s 2019 second-round draft pick.  In addition, the Hornets have released Elliot Williams from his 10-day contract.

 

[Grin&MartyBarret]

According to Zach Lowe, the Celtics and Nuggets have had exploratory talks about Ty Lawson.

 

[nighthob]

He also mentioned that the Nuggets, emboldened by Cleveland's desperation, are valuing everything relative to that overpay.

 

[the1andonly3003]

According to Zach Lowe, the Celtics and Nuggets have had exploratory talks about Ty Lawson.

I would totally throw in one of Bass, Thornton or Wallace as a salary match, and mix in a draft pick

 

[Grin&MartyBarret]

I would totally throw in one of Bass, Thornton or Wallace as a salary match, and mix in a draft pick

 
That's very generous of you.

 

[nighthob]

They want two #1s for Wilson fucking Chandler. Lawton ain't going for filler and a #1.

 

[SLC Sox]

Enes Kanter has demanded a trade.  He gets about 27 minutes a game and wants more.  Offensively he's useful, defensively he is not.  I haven't the foggiest idea what Utah could get for him as he enters restricted free agency this offseason, and I'd be slightly sad to see him go because he really has progressed a lot since joining the league, but that defensive is just not good.

 

[nighthob]

Yeah, 6'9" centers that couldn't defend Kobe to a room full of Laker fans have really limited utility.

 

[mcpickl]

I would totally throw in one of Bass, Thornton or Wallace as a salary match, and mix in a draft pick

Denver isn't looking to take on garbage to match salary, and Boston doesn't need to send it out. Could fit Lawson into the Rondo trade exception.
 
Need to build a package around picks/kids. Not Gerald Wallace.

 

[The Social Chair]

Crossing my fingers that the Karl coached Kings are disaster and we can make a play for Boogie this summer. I wouldn't waste our picks on a trade right now. 

 

[Cellar-Door]

Crossing my fingers that the Karl coached Kings are disaster and we can make a play for Boogie this summer. I wouldn't waste our picks on a trade right now. 

No chance.
At center what I do think is becoming more likely is that they offer the max to DeAndre Jordan

 

[cardiacs]

No chance.
At center what I do think is becoming more likely is that they offer the max to DeAndre Jordan

 
Can I ask why you think this? I'd like to see them make an offer to Cousins. 

 

[Cellar-Door]

 
Can I ask why you think this? I'd like to see them make an offer to Cousins. 

Cousins just signed a max contract, he's 24 years old and by far the most important piece on his team,  there is basically zero chance they even listen to offers for him.
As to Jordan... He's only 26, he's developed into one of the better defenders at the C position, while playing efficient offense without needing the ball in his hands. He plays the position of perhaps the biggest need for the Cs, and this is the year you want to hand out a max if ever, since it will predate the cap jump.

 

[HomeRunBaker]

No chance.
At center what I do think is becoming more likely is that they offer the max to DeAndre Jordan

Jordan loves Doc and Doc loves Jordan......and the Clippers can pay him more.

If ever there was a less than zero chance at a player this may be it.

 

[Cellar-Door]

Jordan loves Doc and Doc loves Jordan......and the Clippers can pay him more.

If ever there was a less than zero chance at a player this may be it.

Probably true, though no harm in making the offer. If there is a chance it is that the Clips would be hit with the repeater tax if they re-sign him. Huge tax bill. I'd guess Balmer won't care about paying a ton in tax bills, but there is a chance they don't want to tie up $65M and rising on 3 players when they already have been having problems with their atrocious depth.
I don't think there is much chance we get him, but making the offer is a smart move.

 

[HomeRunBaker]

Probably true, though no harm in making the offer. If there is a chance it is that the Clips would be hit with the repeater tax if they re-sign him. Huge tax bill. I'd guess Balmer won't care about paying a ton in tax bills, but there is a chance they don't want to tie up $65M and rising on 3 players when they already have been having problems with their atrocious depth.
I don't think there is much chance we get him, but making the offer is a smart move.

Ballmer has said he doesn't care about the tax and DeAndre when asked what his #1 factor is when choosing a team this summer responded, "Great weather! I don't want to be freezing every day."

Danny can offer all he wants.....it isn't going to matter.

 

[HomeRunBaker]

That JR Giddens pick will always bother me more than it should.

Giddens and JuJuan Johnson could have easily been DeAndre Jordan and Jimmy Butler. Our future would look so much different.

Yeah I know that's a dangerous game to play but those seniors and 5th year seniors with limited upside have well.....limited upside.

 

[radsoxfan]

Giddens and JuJuan Johnson could have easily been DeAndre Jordan and Jimmy Butler. Our future would look so much different.

Yeah I know that's a dangerous game to play but those seniors and 5th year seniors with limited upside have well.....limited upside.

 
Agreed… though Butler came out after his junior season, and played his first NBA season at age 22.  I don't recall him being much of an "upside pick" at the time.
 
The bigger issue its that Jimmy Butler is really good at basketball, while JuJuan Johnson (and of course JR Giddens) are not. 

 

[moondog80]

Giddens and JuJuan Johnson could have easily been DeAndre Jordan and Jimmy Butler. Our future would look so much different.

Yeah I know that's a dangerous game to play but those seniors and 5th year seniors with limited upside have well.....limited upside.

 
 
Every team in the NBA could say the same thing.  The Bulls scored with Butler at 30, but two years later they passed on Gorgui Dieng, Rudy Gobert, and Mason Plumlee to pick Tony Snell.  And those brilliant Jordan-picking Clippers also traded the pick that became Kyrie Irving for half a season of 300 year old Baron Davis.
 
"The player you pick has to have a better NBA career than every single player picked afterward" is a ridiculously high standard.   Cherry picking examples like this is like drawing inferences from  a sequence where Larry Bird misses a shot and Uwe Blab hits one.

 

[Grin&MartyBarret]

 
 
Every team in the NBA could say the same thing.  The Bulls scored with Butler at 30, but two years later they passed on Gorgui Dieng, Rudy Gobert, and Mason Plumlee to pick Tony Snell.  And those brilliant Jordan-picking Clippers also traded the pick that became Kyrie Irving for half a season of 300 year old Baron Davis.
 
"The player you pick has to have a better NBA career than every single player picked afterward" is a ridiculously high standard.   Cherry picking examples like this is like drawing inferences from  a sequence where Larry Bird misses a shot and Uwe Blab hits one.

 
Correction, they traded that pick to get rid of 300 year old Baron Davis for half a season.

 

[moondog80]

 
Correction, they traded that pick to get rid of 300 year old Baron Davis for half a season.

 
 
Right.  Point still stands though.

 

[TheDeuce222]

Giddens and JuJuan Johnson could have easily been DeAndre Jordan and Jimmy Butler. Our future would look so much different.

Yeah I know that's a dangerous game to play but those seniors and 5th year seniors with limited upside have well.....limited upside.

And Al Jefferson, Delonte West, and Tony Allen (the draft most responsible for allowing Ainge to construct the 2008 title team) could have easily been Pavel Podkolzin, Sasha Vujacic and Beno Udrih.  When you're in the late 20s, and picking guys to hopefully contribute something to a still-contending team, it can just be such a crapshoot.  Moondog has already pointed it out - every team in the league could say the same about multiple late-first guys they missed on.

 

[Kliq]

 
 
Every team in the NBA could say the same thing.  The Bulls scored with Butler at 30, but two years later they passed on Gorgui Dieng, Rudy Gobert, and Mason Plumlee to pick Tony Snell.  And those brilliant Jordan-picking Clippers also traded the pick that became Kyrie Irving for half a season of 300 year old Baron Davis.
 
"The player you pick has to have a better NBA career than every single player picked afterward" is a ridiculously high standard.   Cherry picking examples like this is like drawing inferences from  a sequence where Larry Bird misses a shot and Uwe Blab hits one.

 
Snell is a versatile wing defender that is shooting 38% from downtown in his second season. He is a good backup for Butler.

 

[moondog80]

 
Snell is a versatile wing defender that is shooting 38% from downtown in his second season. He is a good backup for Butler.

 
 
Fine.  2012, they picked Marquis Teague (29th) instead of Draymond Green (35th).  Just imagine how good they could be if only they knew how to draft!

 

[nighthob]

Every team in the NBA could say the same thing.  The Bulls scored with Butler at 30, but two years later they passed on Gorgui Dieng, Rudy Gobert, and Mason Plumlee to pick Tony Snell.  And those brilliant Jordan-picking Clippers also traded the pick that became Kyrie Irving for half a season of 300 year old Baron Davis.
 
"The player you pick has to have a better NBA career than every single player picked afterward" is a ridiculously high standard.   Cherry picking examples like this is like drawing inferences from  a sequence where Larry Bird misses a shot and Uwe Blab hits one.

That wasn't at all what HRB was saying, but hey, great job setting the strawman aflame. (His point was that you really need to think twice about drafting the no upside players due to perceived need.)

 

[moondog80]

That wasn't at all what HRB was saying, but hey, great job setting the strawman aflame. (His point was that you really need to think twice about drafting the no upside players due to perceived need.)

 
 
Jimmy Butler and Draymond Green were seniors thought to have low upside ("projects as a role player").    Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose.  You know who was an upside pick?  Fab Melo.

 

[Jed Zeppelin]

The 2008 Celtics were coming off a title and were very vet heavy with basically no ability to add any more young talent. The time was perfect for them to add a project like Jordan. That Giddens pick will forever be unforgivable to me. Sure, everyone misses but comparing where the Celtics were in 2008 vs. 2012 isn't apples to apples. The "safe" play in 2008 was Mario Chalmers since there was a backup PG need. The riskier play was Jordan. JR Giddens was simply a stupid pick.

Yeah, Giddens was bad in hindsight, foresight, and every other kind of sight. You had better safe plays in Chalmers and Mbah a Moute (if position was so important), the better risky play in Jordan, and better long term plays in the Euros that were taken in that stretch of picks. Giddens must have killed in workouts.

 

[nighthob]

Jimmy Butler and Draymond Green were seniors thought to have low upside ("projects as a role player").    Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose.  You know who was an upside pick?  Fab Melo.

Butler was not a senior. Green was an undersized PF, which was why he stayed all four years. He was not, in fact, making the claim you're attributing to him.

 

[moondog80]

Butler was not a senior. Green was an undersized PF, which was why he stayed all four years. He was not, in fact, making the claim you're attributing to him.

Butler was a senior; played JUCO and then three years at Marquette. And Green's ESPN draft profile has the buzzwords of low-upside high-floor guy ("high IQ", "not a great athlete").

Regardless of the angle, any criticism at all of picks n the 20s needs to sprinkled liberally with mounds of "these picks are really hard and even the best teams fail more often than not".

 

[RedOctober3829]

@ESPNSteinLine: ESPN sources say Celtics emerging as contender on the outside for Goran Dragic in trade with Phoenix

 

[Grin&MartyBarret]

Unfortunately, Dragic has apparently stated through his agent that he prefers to play in LA, Miami, or New York next year. That doesn't necessarily rule out the Celtics, but it sounds like he's heading to free agency either way.
 
It is interesting, however, that the Celtics have now been linked to Dragic, Thomas, and Lawson. Probably a pretty clear indicator that they feel like Smart's future isn't at the point.

 

[Jed Zeppelin]

Decent point guards are plentiful enough that they shouldn't be looking to trade assets for the right to blow through a bunch of their cap space and ruin this year's draft position.

 

[nighthob]

Unfortunately, Dragic has apparently stated through his agent that he prefers to play in LA, Miami, or New York next year. That doesn't necessarily rule out the Celtics, but it sounds like he's heading to free agency either way.
 
It is interesting, however, that the Celtics have now been linked to Dragic, Thomas, and Lawson. Probably a pretty clear indicator that they feel like Smart's future isn't at the point.

Multiple point guard attacks are all the rage these days. When those Gs shoot like Dragic you're essentially recreating the 80s Celtics backcourt (i.e. two guards that can handle, pass, and shoot). But, honestly, given his preferences I think this is just Ainge doing a solid for his former assistant so that the Suns don't get fleeced.

 

[nighthob]

Regardless of the angle, any criticism at all of picks n the 20s needs to sprinkled liberally with mounds of "these picks are really hard and even the best teams fail more often than not".

Let me say this again, and I'll use little words so that you understand. HRB was not making the claim that you want to argue. Full stop.

 

[Grin&MartyBarret]

The Bucks and Larry Sanders have finalized a buyout.
 
Very interesting FA.

 

[TheRooster]

You would seriously want the C's (or any other team you care about) to sign Larry Sanders?  Basketball seems very unimportant to him OR he has serious issues that are likely to get worse not better.  Gigantic "pass" for me.

 

[Grin&MartyBarret]

You would seriously want the C's (or any other team you care about) to sign Larry Sanders?  Basketball seems very unimportant to him OR he has serious issues that are likely to get worse not better.  Gigantic "pass" for me.

 
Yep, I'd take a chance on a 26 year old Center who has been a dominant defensive player already. Frankly, I think the things he's said about his life and where basketball fits into it are healthy, and if he's willing to take a salary fitting for a roleplayer instead of something the size of which he was just bought out of, I think he's certainly worth working with.

 

[the1andonly3003]

http://www.boston.com/sports/basketball/celtics/extras/celtics_blog/2015/02/report_celtics_emerging_as_contender_to_trade_for_goran_drag.html?p1=well_Sports_subheadline_hp
 
Marc Stein has a couple of tweets linking Celts to Dragic sweepstakes

 

[HomeRunBaker]

 
Yep, I'd take a chance on a 26 year old Center who has been a dominant defensive player already. Frankly, I think the things he's said about his life and where basketball fits into it are healthy, and if he's willing to take a salary fitting for a roleplayer instead of something the size of which he was just bought out of, I think he's certainly worth working with.

You have to have some serious issues to walk away from $21m that he's leaving on the table. It's abundantly clear he doesn't want to play basketball and/or has some potentially life threatening personal issues.

I'd be less surprised if we read his obituary than I would be him playing NBA basketball anytime soon if ever. Nobody is touching this guy.

 

[Grin&MartyBarret]

You have to have some serious issues to walk away from $21m that he's leaving on the table. It's abundantly clear he doesn't want to play basketball and/or has some potentially life threatening personal issues.

I'd be less surprised if we read his obituary than I would be him playing NBA basketball anytime soon if ever. Nobody is touching this guy.

 
I'm not really sure why people are so willing to leap to this sort of conclusion. He's smoked pot and admitted that he got pushed down the basketball road because of his talent, but is uncertain as to whether or not it was something he was passionate about. Beyond that, there's only been one very vague interview in which he said he was working out some personal stuff, and until then he didn't think he could focus on basketball.
 
That could mean any of a number of things. It seems like a pretty serious leap to have him on the edge of death.

 

[RedOctober3829]

Stein has added that Miles Plumlee may be added to any potential Dragic deal.  Thoughts on him?

 

[nighthob]

A team like the Celtics that has zero frontcourt defenders is exactly the kind of team that should be taking a shot on Sanders. But my guess is he goes to a playoff team like Cleveland or something.

Yeah, this seems like a lead pipe cinch.

 

[Corsi]

Adrian Wojnarowski ‏@WojYahooNBA  15s16 seconds ago
Yahoo Sources: Suns much more focused on discussing Dragic deals w/ Celtics, Rockets, Kings, among others, than any teams on guard's list.

 

[DeJesus Built My Hotrod]

I like Dragic a great deal but he may have peaked last year, is clearly a flight risk per G&MB's post up thread and is more of a nice piece than a difference maker. I dont see Ainge giving up a lot for him. Plumlee seems like more of the same thing that the C's already have.

And I would take a flier on Sanders. But I irrationally love me some Dr. Blocktopus though we may never see him again.

 

[ifmanis5]

I love Sanders. When he is on he is a defensive player of the year level talent. Can Stevens get his head on straight? I'd love to find out.

 

[HomeRunBaker]

 
I'm not really sure why people are so willing to leap to this sort of conclusion. He's smoked pot and admitted that he got pushed down the basketball road because of his talent, but is uncertain as to whether or not it was something he was passionate about. Beyond that, there's only been one very vague interview in which he said he was working out some personal stuff, and until then he didn't think he could focus on basketball.
 
That could mean any of a number of things. It seems like a pretty serious leap to have him on the edge of death.

I'm not leaping to a conclusion.....but I'm not naive enough to believe this is simply "I don't feel like giving up my weed for basketball." There is a real good chance i'm guessing (and i'm only guessing based on what i've read) of deeper psychological issues or addiction as it is not normal for someone to walk away from $21m because they simply don't feel like playing basketball. That doesn't pass the smell test to me.


Edit: Found these. Kennedy's line of him having a rough time doesn't sound good.

Battling a number of issues, Sanders is unlikely to seek a new team this year. Once bought out he would be an unrestricted free agent

Steve Kyler (@stevekylerNBA) February 18, 2015

Regarding Larry Sanders' future, he may play again down the road, but he needs to resolve personal issues first. He's having a tough time.

Alex Kennedy (@AlexKennedyNBA) February 18, 2015