5/29 - The Last Of Us

luckiestman

Son of the Harpy
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Jul 15, 2005
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I have seen nothing that makes me want to watch any more NBA games in 2023, that's for sure. I will say that personally attacking KFP for being drunk and pissed off is some bullshit, and the posters saying "fuck you" to him are violating board policy a hell of a lot more than he is, no matter how stupid his injury denial reads.
Joker is a joy to watch and Spo is one of the best. I’ll watch. We would all love the Heat if not for Riley and them beating us. Caleb fucking Martin, Gabe Vincent, and Duncan Hines…I can’t believe it.
 

Nick Kaufman

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A Lost Time
Sorry to say I fell asleep only to wake up before the game was over in order to see the bad news.

One thing you can say about this series is that never ceased to surprise you. I never expected us to lose this badly after having all the momentum.

I will never accept that the Heat were the better team. I would have accepted it, had the Celtics rolled through the Hawks and the Sixers. But this year, like they last, they allowed easy series wins to become tough slogs. Throughout the last two years' playoffs, you can say that they either played to the level of their opponent or they underperformed.

I don't know who's to blame. The moments after a bad loss isn't the time to make personnel decisions.
 

Salem's Lot

Andy Moog! Andy God Damn Moog!
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Jul 15, 2005
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If you give Jaylen and Jayson the supermax, then the team has no flexibility to do anything. Jaylen is a poor to terrible ball handler, he is a below average FT shooter, and he had a fantastic scoring regular season. I was thrilled when he was second team All NBA because it meant he would want to stay. The reality is he underperformed in this entire series and often looked listless while doing it. This has nothing to do with Kyrie, antisemitism, or any other excuse you are hinting at. It has to do with the fact that he thinks he is an alpha and hasn’t shown it on the court when it mattered in this series.
Brown is much more valuable after his first year under a supermax deal than he is now. No one is giving anywhere near value for him when he can walk after next year.
 

Deathofthebambino

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If you give Jaylen and Jayson the supermax, then the team has no flexibility to do anything. Jaylen is a poor to terrible ball handler, he is a below average FT shooter, and he had a fantastic scoring regular season. I was thrilled when he was second team All NBA because it meant he would want to stay. The reality is he underperformed in this entire series and often looked listless while doing it. This has nothing to do with Kyrie, antisemitism, or any other excuse you are hinting at. It has to do with the fact that he thinks he is an alpha and hasn’t shown it on the court when it mattered in this series.
Dude, I'm not hinting at anything. What the fuck do you think the space laser references were for in this thread? Any thoughts?

There are multiple posters in this forum who have been pretty clear on their thoughts about Jaylen for quite a while on this issue, and like I said, I don't begrudge them for it. I just wish they'd say it, instead of talking about trading him out of town for nothing in return, which is just plain fucking stupid.

What flexibility does this team need? Tatum, TL, Al, Brogdon, White, Smart, Gallo are all under contract. They aren't going anywhere, unless via trade. Trading Jaylen to get a shit deal in return because who the fuck wants a rental for one year that has the salary slot to pay him, makes no sense? You sign him to the super max, give it another year, run it back (although I've been advocating moving Smart this offseason), and if it doesn't work, you then have a MUCH, MUCH more valuable trade piece after the 23-24 season.

He had a bad series, I think he was hurt in the first game and never got it back.

Did you miss the first two series of the playoffs?
 

Petagine in a Bottle

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I think running it back and hoping for good injury luck (please, for once) and perhaps one playoff run without facing an elite coach is the easiest way to go, at least for another year.

Taking too much from this game with Tatum's ankle is dangerous, IMO
Seems unlikely to work (although most alternatives won’t, either). I don’t think we can expect much from Al (who has just too many games where he is a complete zero offensively) going forward, TL is always hurt, Smart inconsistent, etc.

Where does the growth / improvement come from?
 

Ed Hillel

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Brown is much more valuable after his first year under a supermax deal than he is now. No one is giving anywhere near value for him when he can walk after next year.
The thing is, if Boston isn’t gonna supermax him, he might agree to an extension elsewhere. It’s a complicated issue.
 

soxin6

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This is just not true. He was bad in 3 games this series (unfortunately, 1 of them was tonight and might have been the worst game of his career).

he was awesome in Game 6. good in games 1,4 and 5. I’m not going to touch the “listless” or “alpha” stuff….no idea what to even say to that
He underperformed his season averages for almost every game of the series.
 

bankshot1

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No.

I watched Tatum grimace after every missed shot tonight. Not going down the court, but only when it was convenient. And maybe I'm just projecting my anger onto it, but I'm so fucking sick of seeing that shit.

Always throwing his arms up. Always a look of confusion when he misses. And after him consistently stretching his "shoulder injury" that disappeared after the playoffs last year, im just fucking over the grimaces and the act.

Maybe his ankle is hanging on by a thread. But I'm over the boy that cries wolf right now. Especially after an embarrassing game 7.
I'm glad you're over Tatum. He broke your heart. Perhaps you can now stfu about him and forget about him.

There will be others
 

Auger34

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I absolutely agree there’s some posters who dislike him for having an opinion, and fuck that….i hate Kyrie, and also think Jaylen is a smart guy who is totally entitled to his opinion and a lot more thoughtful than most people around the NBA (or here, frankly).

I also think, for all the great in his game, it’s hard to deny that he has showed up small in a lot of big games, including tonight. I Just don’t know what you do—-I absolutely agree you offer him the super max, that is indeed a no-brainer. .
You brought up the finals earlier in regards to JB not showing up and then the bolded part here. I respect you a lot as a poster but I’m not sure I agree with this?

I will say that Miami is the toughest match up for him. By a lot…..but Jaylen was good in the Finals last year.

there are A LOT of people (fans, media members) who talk about how he was the best Celtics player against the Warriors.

What other big games do you remember him coming up small in?
 

kazuneko

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Playoff Caleb got robbed. He was the MVP of this series.
100%
He was the story of the series. The best player on the floor in a series that included three All NBA players. And there is no way this is a fluke. He was just too consistent for too long. Martin’s emergence changes this Miami team’s trajectory. Martin, Butler and Adebayo is a trio of two-way studs that makes them a tough matchup for anyone.
 

Petagine in a Bottle

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Well, indeed.

The Last of Us.

Us, the core that young Brad brought in. Smart, Brown, Tatum, as one. The city. The team. The US. To lose the S, notably the beginning and the end of the word and now the truth of the word SERIES. Then you only have a U. And that U, phonetically, and in its reality, is but only of one.

Think as we wanted, wanting as we thought...it did not make it real. Only when we eat while crying upon the game and opportunities lost can we taste what life is like. And what is life but its variations, no matter the further explanations, but a series of events that are absolutely, utterly, unequivocally, and inexplicably odd?
I think old Danny brought these guys here, not young Brad.
 

Jed Zeppelin

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As much as they flubbed a bunch of games last season too, it always felt like they had gotten there ahead of schedule and that they would come back stronger and more battle-tested and able to do what it would take.

I have none of those feelings this year. The best thing to say for their future is that there are no juggernauts in the East and they have a lot of theoretically movable contracts, but this season was a clear backslide both in terms of the quality of their game, their ability to play like adults consistently, their coaching, their defense, etc.

Al a year older, TL’s ligaments a year thinner, somehow we finished the season with basically a 6 man rotation. And we are basically out of bullets to pull off more additive trades like White and Brogdon. Brad will need to pull off some wizardry here. But I don’t know if I am here for it. I was here for it even after the Finals loss last year because I thought they’d come back stronger. For as good a season as it was, it was born under a bad sign and they just never pulled it together.

Now you’re banking on the bad rookie coaching improving in year 2. Maybe it will. Idk, maybe I’m just a baseball and football fan for as long as those teams have lower expectations. This wasn’t fun.

Edit: I have to keep double-taking, don’t recognize myself with the new avatar.
 

Auger34

used to be tbb
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He underperformed his season averages for almost every game of the series.
I watched all of these games (I am 99% sure you did too).

Can you really go look at his box scores, then think about how good he was defending Jimmy Butler and stand by what you were saying?
 

luckiestman

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Tatum will continue to get better, Brown will get signed/maxed and play well off a healthy Tatum. Most teams won’t have a player as good as those two and the CBA will fuck everyone not just us. I think we all saw tonight that Jaylen is as good as he is because the opposing D keys on Tatum. Whatever. I like the team. I think the coach is overmatched. Ime better have done something truly fucked up and not just banged an owners wife or whatever. I don’t think we are firing the coach but I hope he grows in the role. I’m thoroughly unimpressed by what I see on the court, media appearances, and what are supposed to be puff pieces about him. At least he stopped murdering gum all game.
 

DeadlySplitter

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Seems unlikely to work (although most alternatives won’t, either).
I think that's the main point, it's still the best path even if the team is fundamentally flawed.

I think they are talented enough to win the title, big warts and all, as long as don't face certain coaches. Like, maybe only the Heat. Who almost didn't make the proper playoffs this year. Might just have to roll with it and see what the bracket is next time.
 

Ale Xander

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Smart is probably the one going. We desperately need an efficient, pass first PG.
The best PG in the league are who? Curry? Lillard? Morant? Kyrie? Luka? Harden? Young?
Not really pass first
Maybe Jrue I guess is who you want
 

PedroKsBambino

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If we got 75% of game 7 Tatum most nights we wouldn’t be having this conversation.

He got hurt tonight, for sure. But this series was lost in games 1-3. He played well in game 1 but really struggled to shoot the 3 in games 2 and 3. Foenthe role that he plays, he needs to be the guy who can reliably stop the runs these other teams go on with consistent reliable shot making. As I said I don’t think he’s setup for success but we have seen multiple teams scheme him into some very tough shooting performances. I really like him and think he’s a fantastic player. But we need to understand if he’s truly capable of being the alpha dog every night as we make decisions about reshaping that roster. I’m not willing to say I’m sure he isn’t but I think there’s a red flag to explore there about whether he can be that guy.

The insinuation that I’m a casual fan for raising a thought is, of course, disappointing. I’ve been positing about the Celtics here for years and follow as passionately as many. I know it’s an angering day for both of us but I don’t think it’s warranted at all
Tatum was clearly and materially injured tonight—-what do you want from the guy? He outplayed Butler overall in the series. If what he did this playoffs overall isn’t an ‘alpha’ than who is—-Curry, who went out early? Lebron, who was swept? Embiid, who Tatum beat very clearly and decisively in the ‘alpha’ seventh game? Lillard, who couldn’t even max the playoffs? Giannis, who disappeared in 5 games this year and was defeated mano a mano by Tatum last year? Tatum was the best player on the floor in two elimination games last year and one this year vs the MVP this year and the past MVP last year…not many guys in NBA history can say that. if the standard is “always answers the bell in a big game” you’re all-time list of alphas is, I believe two: Bill Russell and Michael Jordan. I agree-—Tatum is neither of those guys. And neither is anyone else playing the NBA in the last 20 years (including LeBron). Everyone else loses sometimes.

I get that Tatum may be a half-level below the top (I’m someone who said I could see dealing him for Doncic for precisely this reason) but I just don’t see how you watch this series, or tonight, and conclude he’s the issue. It’s easy to blame the star but seriously—-who would you rather have? It’s a damn short list.
 

genoasalami

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I watch very little NBA because it's nothing like the game I grew up watching during the Bird era. It's crappy defense and a 3 point shooting contest. Nothing I saw during these playoffs will alter my viewing habits.
 

Pablo's TB Lover

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That’s my point. Todays NBA forces you to pay him. That’s why Harden keeps getting paid.
I’d rather do Jaylen plus 35 for Lillard
The new CBA is going to be very punitive to the Cs if they carry both JT and JB (or Dame in place of JB). They may bite the bullet and do so, but I take Stevens and Wyc as having a more Belichick-ian approach and wanting a "middle class" with a good amount of useful role players. If you have to pay 5-7 guys the minimum, that is not happening...
 

Deathofthebambino

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I’ll say it. He’s an anti-semite. And his game is infuriating.
And I've got no issues with that opinion.

I'd just rather people say that then come with horrible takes on the basketball side of the equation. Jaylen is a flawed player, but he also has flaws that you, as a coach and an organization, can't exacerbate. Tatum gets hurt, you simply don't ask Jaylen to run the offense. That's why you have 3 different point guards (one was hurt, one subsequently got hurt tonight). But as a scorer opposite an alpha like Tatum, he's just fine and this team can win with that. 5 EC Finals, one finals appearance, 8-2 in elimination games, and folks want to blow this up? It's insanity.
 

Manzivino

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Brown is much more valuable after his first year under a supermax deal than he is now. No one is giving anywhere near value for him when he can walk after next year.
This 100%, his market this offseason is limited to teams he’s willing to resign with. Extending him for the supermax ( or somewhere between the supermax and the max he could get from another team) is no-brainer, run back the Tatum-Brown duo and of it doesn’t work Brown with 5 years of control is a huge trade asset.
 

Helmet Head

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Still upset about the Brogdon minutes. Not so much that they gave him a try but that they let him play for 7 + minutes. He is useless defensively anyways but can add value with his shot making when he is on. It was fairly clear he wasn’t close to on pretty early. He played for about 6 minutes too long and it may have cost them. Game sort of turned around at that point when he was in there.
 

kazuneko

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Actually, the Brogdon injury crushed us. He and Gallo were the 3 point shooters off the bench that we needed and Brad signed. Brogdon was great in that role all season.
Brogdon should not have been playing hurt. It was ridiculous. He clearly couldn't shoot and he's subpar from defense either way. Hauser, Grant, and PP should have taken those minutes.
 

Petagine in a Bottle

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As much as they flubbed a bunch of games last season too, it always felt like they had gotten there ahead of schedule and that they would come back stronger and more battle-tested and able to do what it would take.

I have none of those feelings this year. The best thing to say for their future is that there are no juggernauts in the East and they have a lot of theoretically movable contracts, but this season was a clear backslide both in terms of the quality of their game, their ability to play like adults consistently, their coaching, their defense, etc.

Al a year older, TL’s ligaments a year thinner, somehow we finished the season with basically a 6 man rotation. And we are basically out of bullets to pull off more additive trades like White and Brogdon. Brad will need to pull off some wizardry here. But I don’t know if I am here for it. I was here for it even after the Finals loss last year because I thought they’d come back stronger. For as good a season as it was, it was born under a bad sign and they just never pulled it together.

Now you’re banking on the bad rookie coaching improving in year 2. Maybe it will. Idk, maybe I’m just a baseball and football fan for as long as those teams have lower expectations. This wasn’t fun.

Edit: I have to keep double-taking, don’t recognize myself with the new avatar.
I think what you saw this year was a team dealing with expectations, and not having much in the way of leadership, at the coaching position or on the court. Seemed like a lot of distractions all year, from the get go with Ime, and a team that struggled to find its identity. Lots of games lost that they should have won- a team that seemed to often struggle mightily in big spots when they didn’t come out strong out of the gate, a team that didn’t always seem to believe in themselves or each other .

Where do they go from here? Really hard to say- but it does feel like they may need to shake up this core a bit and bring in some leaders who can provide a fresh perspective and don’t have the baggage of the past few years. Hell, that may be the best argument from moving on from Stevens / CJM, etc. No easy answers.
 

Jed Zeppelin

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Joe pulled some strings to get the series even but the reality is they were sagging off good shooters all playoffs and he could not get them to play any kind of hard defense consistently all season. Huge huge failure after it was their calling card a year ago.
 

luckiestman

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We all know the best coach for this team is busy picking the groceries. He should have stepped in over the Townie.
 

Royal Reader

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Well, this was thoroughly dispiriting.

As bad as some of the losses have been, you guys have added to rather than detracted from the experience. I haven't always been able to say that about the Cs subforum.

I have no f'in idea which way they should go in the off-season.
 

8slim

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And I've got no issues with that opinion.

I'd just rather people say that then come with horrible takes on the basketball side of the equation. Jaylen is a flawed player, but he also has flaws that you, as a coach and an organization, can't exacerbate. Tatum gets hurt, you simply don't ask Jaylen to run the offense. That's why you have 3 different point guards (one was hurt, one subsequently got hurt tonight). But as a scorer opposite an alpha like Tatum, he's just fine and this team can win with that. 5 EC Finals, one finals appearance, 8-2 in elimination games, and folks want to blow this up? It's insanity.
That’s all fine. I mostly checked out on this season after Brown’s bullshit and I really should have stayed completely away. I came back for the playoffs and it was very difficult to root for him. That he then soiled himself in the biggest game of the season was the rotten cherry on a shit sundae.
 

kazuneko

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Still upset about the Brogdon minutes. Not so much that they gave him a try but that they let him play for 7 + minutes. He is useless defensively anyways but can add value with his shot making when he is on. It was fairly clear he wasn’t close to on pretty early. He played for about 6 minutes too long and it may have cost them. Game sort of turned around at that point when he was in there.
I guess it's tough to shoot when you've partially torn a tendon in your right arm. Who knew? Apparently, Joe Mazzulla couldn't understand this...
 

PedroKsBambino

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You brought up the finals earlier in regards to JB not showing up and then the bolded part here. I respect you a lot as a poster but I’m not sure I agree with this?

I will say that Miami is the toughest match up for him. By a lot…..but Jaylen was good in the Finals last year.

there are A LOT of people (fans, media members) who talk about how he was the best Celtics player against the Warriors.

What other big games do you remember him coming up small in?
He was erratic in finals—23 PPG, but 43% shooting and as many turnovers as assists. He didn’t show in games 2 and 5 of finals. He was their best one on one scorer in finals and remains an elite guy for that. I’m happy to have him. So, to be clear, n like JB, and I am very much not in the “trade him, loser’ camp.

But there’s no getting around that tonight was an awful performance, and that his ball handling is a problem vs the very teams this Celtics core needs to figure out how to beat….he has not fixed it. He hasn’t figured out how to be a playmaker when Tatum is off (though he has, generally, been a good scorer when Tatum sits). So I am not dogging the guy, but I also do think we need to consider how to change what has befuddled them in last year and this year’s ECF and last year’s finals. We’re talking about how an elite team becomes a title team—-it’s in part about small adjustments or growth.

Also—-to be clear—-we have no real idea what’s up with his hand. It wouldn’t surprise me if he has surgery and we find out this was a big deal. But his problems with handle are not about that injury, they go back longer.
 

luckiestman

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Well, thank god Brogdon has an opinion. I have an opinion too, but I don’t think Brogdon will like it.
Im not mad at Brogdon. He is clearly injured and isn’t going to ask out. He played well this year. Coaches need to pay attention. We all saw Brogdon was a mess.