I wonder if the Worthy conditional late round choice is lost if he's cut; i.e., is it possible they'll resign him if he passes through waivers and then not owe the conditional choice?
RoDaddy said:I wonder if the Worthy conditional late round choice is lost if he's cut; i.e., is it possible they'll resign him if he passes through waivers and then not owe the conditional choice?
Oof.bankshot1 said:As they play half their games at Gillette, its probably easy to get a razor back
So who fills that role?soxhop411 said:“@MikeReiss: Long snapper Danny Aiken among 19 players released today.”
https://twitter.com/MikeReiss/status/505816647631142913
You weren't hallucinating.Section15Box113 said:So who fills that role?
Did Nink do it in preseason? Or was I hallucinating?
Section15Box113 said:So who fills that role?
Did Nink do it in preseason? Or was I hallucinating?
Byrdbrain said:You weren't hallucinating.
I wonder if this is just roster juggling and they end up bringing Aiken or some other snapper in, I can't see Nink doing it.
Nink does have a history, though. Has been long snapping since middle school, did it at Purdue, and was the LS for the Saints a lifetime ago.Byrdbrain said:You weren't hallucinating.
I wonder if this is just roster juggling and they end up bringing Aiken or some other snapper in, I can't see Nink doing it.
RoDaddy said:I wonder if the Worthy conditional late round choice is lost if he's cut; i.e., is it possible they'll resign him if he passes through waivers and then not owe the conditional choice?
PedroKsBambino said:Agreed, I don't think it'll happen---primarily because I don't expect Nink is close enough to a real LS to justify the risk
When Belichick started, players didn't sub out - the same 11 offensive and defensive players played all game. I'm not sure why this particular specialization would irk him more than anything else.PedroKsBambino said:I can believe the Pats do the math on that, though, because spending a roster spot on a LS has to irk BB a bit.
Super Nomario said:When Belichick started, players didn't sub out - the same 11 offensive and defensive players played all game. I'm not sure why this particular specialization would irk him more than anything else.
http://www.patriots.com/news/article-1/Bill-Belichick-Transcript-We-have-a-long-haul-ahead-of-us/e25a5aec-182b-4582-84c4-bd2a39aa6d6d
mabrowndog said:Aside from Aiken, the one cut that surprised me most was Gallon. I liked what I saw from the kid.
bankshot1 said:Between punts and FG, and the cost of a bad snap, it seems a LS would have value greaetr than a JAG. Who owes their roster spot to Nink being LS?
The number of snaps is not really small - the LS plays as many snaps as the K and P, essentially (Aiken played exactly as many snaps as Allen last year and a couple dozen fewer than Gostkowski). As for impact, I think it's largely a sufficiency position; there's not much difference between a great LS and an average one, but there's a huge difference between an average one and a terrible one (which is what the Pats would likely be in for without signing Aiken or a replacement).PedroKsBambino said:Because while the cost roster-wise is the same (1 spot) the number of snaps impacted is small, and (at least in my observation) the difference in skill between the LS and the fallback is lower than at other spots.
I suspect it irks you and you're projecting onto Belichick. I mean, he drafted a long snapper a few years ago, and constantly makes back-of-the-roster decisions based on special teams. I would think he puts more of a premium on long snapper than most coaches.PedroKsBambino said:Everything I think we can observe about BB says that he's doing cost-benefits on all of these choices, and so the reason I suspect it irks him more is that the value is less.
Pretty sure BB spoke extensively about this in a press conference last year and said that pretty much needs to be a specialistSuper Nomario said:I place the chances we add a real LS between now and next Sunday at 100%. Probably Aiken re-signed after a bunch of waiver nonsense.
I hope he will forgive me for posting contents of our PM, but E5 Yaz and I were talking about how many moves the Pats (and most teams, probably) typically make between cut-downs and week 1. There were four guys they cut after cut-downs and re-added between week 1: Kline, Cole, Develin, and Washington.
Super Nomario said:The number of snaps is not really small - the LS plays as many snaps as the K and P, essentially (Aiken played exactly as many snaps as Allen last year and a couple dozen fewer than Gostkowski). As for impact, I think it's largely a sufficiency position; there's not much difference between a great LS and an average one, but there's a huge difference between an average one and a terrible one (which is what the Pats would likely be in for without signing Aiken or a replacement).
I've been hoping part of the answer will be Hightower. Reiss mentioned something to that effect in breaking down the Final 53.Ed Hillel said:I think a big concern with depth has to be who is going to give Nink/Jones some rest. I don't think it's fair to rely on each of them playing 95% of the snaps. Given that, and with how capable he looked this preseason, I have to wonder if they give a serious look at Sam.
Quick-hit thought: If Jones and Hightower are the top players on the edge, it could reduce Ninkovich's playing time (95 percent of the snaps last year).
I think Belichick is constantly thinking about how to do things better. Roster flexibility can be one way to do things better, but increased specialization can also be a way to do things better. In the case of the LS, a massive advantage of a specialist is that you can practice the snapper / holder / kicker exchange without having to pull an offensive or defensive player out of position work (this is also the reason he has the P hold). So maybe it's not maximizing roster spot flexibility, but it is maximizing practice time efficiency.PedroKsBambino said:
As for Belichick, I think you are missing my point. Do you think he isn't regularly trying to understand how to create more roster flexibility? I certainly think he is...and if so, I'd imagine he's constantly assessing whether specialists who are involved in a very small number of snaps have enough differential value to justify scarce roster spots.
Note that asking that question doesn't mean you will decide (for example) to carry a K/P instead of one of each...it means you are engaging in an assessment of incremental value each time you make a move, and always asking if you have a way to get that to be low enough that you can use the roster spot a different way. Given that, I believe all of the specialists are roles he'd rather fill a different way...but that he will only do so if the value equation justifies it, which typically it has not.
As I said initially, I don't think he'll conclude that here. But I think he's always thinking about the question, too.
He's talking about the holder, but the same would presumably be true for snappers.
"Eventually, teams started going to just pure long snappers. You also see that now in college, most college teams have a pure snapper as well as a pure kicker and a pure punter. I just think when you have that situation, if your punter can hold, then the amount of snaps and time that those guys get to practice together, work together, meet together, watch film together, watch slow-motion film, and concentrate on the technique as opposed to the backup quarterback or somebody like that who has a lot of other responsibilities," he explained.
"It's [about] time. If your holder can be your punter, then the amount of practice time, consistency, and preparation time those guys have together so outweighs what it would be with any other player."
"If it's a position player, like a defensive back or a receiver, and something happens then, who's your backup holder? Because they're regular players, not only do you have to replace them at their offensive or defensive position, but you have to replace them in the kicking game as well."
No. Aiken was making the minimum, and doesn't have the service time to have a guaranteed salary if on the opening day roster.bankshot1 said:Is there some salary benefit to re-signing Aiken on Monday, rather than just keeping him (or anyone) on the 53-man roster (ie. can the Pats save $300k)
With regard to this, and I don't know how Bill structures his practice, but with us in college, ST periods were completely separate from everything else that was going on, so the rest of practice ground to a halt. This would happen twice, at the beginning of practice for KO/KOC/PAT and then halfway through practice for punt/punt cover. Our LS guys would get in all the work they needed either before practice started or during those periods, as they did play other positions throughout my time. My sophomore year, our LS was our starting LT, and my junior and senior years, he was a backup OLB/DE. In short, it shouldn't take reps away from anything they want to do, but the injury concern will probably make them shy away from it.Super Nomario said:I think Belichick is constantly thinking about how to do things better. Roster flexibility can be one way to do things better, but increased specialization can also be a way to do things better. In the case of the LS, a massive advantage of a specialist is that you can practice the snapper / holder / kicker exchange without having to pull an offensive or defensive player out of position work (this is also the reason he has the P hold). So maybe it's not maximizing roster spot flexibility, but it is maximizing practice time efficiency.
Super Nomario said:I think Belichick is constantly thinking about how to do things better. Roster flexibility can be one way to do things better, but increased specialization can also be a way to do things better. In the case of the LS, a massive advantage of a specialist is that you can practice the snapper / holder / kicker exchange without having to pull an offensive or defensive player out of position work (this is also the reason he has the P hold). So maybe it's not maximizing roster spot flexibility, but it is maximizing practice time efficiency.
I don't believe roster spot scarcity is the issue you think it is. There are 46 game day actives, but only 11 players play at a time. There's plenty of room for specialists. I completely disagree that "specialists are roles he'd rather fill a different way." Belichick's actions suggest otherwise. He used a 4th-round pick on Gostkowski, one of only 7 K chosen in the first four rounds since 2000. Mesko was the 150th pick in the 2010 draft; only 1 P has been drafted that high since. Jake Ingram is, as far as I can tell, the only pure LS drafted in the last decade. Gostkowski is the 4th-highest-paid K in the NFL per overthecap. Almost all of his actions suggest that these are positions he values.
Chuck Z said:With regard to this, and I don't know how Bill structures his practice, but with us in college, ST periods were completely separate from everything else that was going on, so the rest of practice ground to a halt. This would happen twice, at the beginning of practice for KO/KOC/PAT and then halfway through practice for punt/punt cover. Our LS guys would get in all the work they needed either before practice started or during those periods, as they did play other positions throughout my time. My sophomore year, our LS was our starting LT, and my junior and senior years, he was a backup OLB/DE. In short, it shouldn't take reps away from anything they want to do, but the injury concern will probably make them shy away from it.
Yeah, as much as we sucked in college, it was still a full-time job for us. First thing every day was a 40 min ST film session before another hour and a half of film for positional groups and then practice actually started. The time aspect for these guys isn't a concern, at least for me. It's more about do you want a chance your starting DE is knocked out on a punt, or do you want to deal with your LS getting rolled up on rushing the passer? My guess is at this level, the answer is no.PedroKsBambino said:Though, there's also film and position group work on an NFL team---so there are tradeoffs today for players. Belichick is clearly not morally opposed to doing this in specific situations (Troy Brown, Vrabel, etc.) but it is a factor, I'd imagine.
Completely agree. Would have kept Gray or Beau instead of a 10th OL, if not the only one at a position liek Aiken.mpx42 said:
Absolutely no idea why Chris Barker made the roster. He's the 10th of 10 OL, was a healthy scratch on the 53 all last year, didn't look great in preseason - would much rather have Aiken.
Last year the Patriots made a bunch of transactions the day after cutdown day, including multiple waiver claims, so we'll see what this roster looks like tomorrow afternoon.
This makes the most sense. Let's not forget our opening day roster did not need to be finalized today.....only the cutdown to 53. By waiving Aiken, and presumably telling him to keep his locker intact, it allows Bill the flexibility to keep a player on the roster he would have otherwise have to waive today. He knows nobody is going to offer Aiken more than the minimum so he is safely in Bill's back pocket until other moves shake out.SeoulSoxFan said:I would put Aiken coming back at about 90%.
Sorry, I edited my post while you were writing this and added some quotes from a PC - Belichick basically makes the explicit point that the snapper / holder / kicker practice together a lot and maximizing their time together is ideal.PedroKsBambino said:On the first point, you're oversimplifying.... for example, I think he's say offensive and defensive players regularly divide their time between those tasks and special teams, for example. It's not 'just' about roster spots or about practice, it's about flexibility. If you don't think he values that, ok..I just disagree.
I agree re: Ninkovich. As for your second sentence - I think they did the analysis already. Belichick knows and remembers a time when things work differently. I don't think it's an on-going question as to whether they should reverse historical trends and roster a combination long-snapper / other as opposed to a specialist. If external factors change, I'm sure they'll re-evaluate, but basically all the trends - increased roster size, decreased practice time, increased specialization at the college and high school levels - suggest things will continue (as Belichick notes in the PC). I don't think Belichick / the brain trust spend any time on a season-to-season basis figuring out if they can gain a roster spot by eliminating a specialist position.PedroKsBambino said:Part of why I don't expect Nink to be the longsnapper all year is practice time---part is injury, and the biggest reason is he's likely not good enough a longsnapper. I do think the Pats do the analysis, though, on each of those things rather than seeing them as unrebuttable assumptions.
Then, there was longsnapper Kevin McDermott, seen as a lock in most corners, getting cut and the job going to Kyle Nelson, whose versatility as a tight end made McDermott expendable. After all, Nelson had five catches for 15 yards and two TDs Thursday at Houston.
I think that's more a case of a LS who can do something else if needed rather than a regular positional player doing the long snapping out of necessity.caesarbear said:
Armon Binns -- Third-year receiver has spent time with the Bengals (2011-2012) and most recently with the Dolphins (2013). He is 6-foot-3 and 211 pounds, has 24 career receptions, and was released by the Dolphins in the cut to 75 players earlier this week.
Omar Brown -- Third-year safety from Marshall appeared in four games with the Ravens over the 2012 and 2013 seasons. He was with the Ravens in training camp and released as part of the cut to 75 players.
Deveron Carr -- Second-year cornerback out of Arizona State played in nine games last season for the Greg Schiano-coached Buccaneers, and was with the Lovie-Smith-led Buccaneers again in training camp this year before being waived in the cut to 75 players.
Jermelle Cudjo -- A fourth-year defensive tackle out of Oklahoma, he appeared in 38 games with the Rams over a three-season span (2010, 2012 and 2013), so he has a connection with current Patriots defensive line coach Brendan Daly. Cudjo was waived by the Rams in May, and then he hooked on with the Chiefs, who released him in the cut to 75 players earlier this week.
Hebron Fangupo -- A second-year defensive tackle who is 29 years old, he was with the Seahawks (2012) and Steelers (2013), appearing in five games over that time. The former Brigham Young product was with the Steelers this training camp before being let go at the 75-player cut. He is 6-foot-0 and 324 pounds.
Cam Henderson -- A first-year defensive end out of Central Florida, the 6-foot-4, 270-pound Henderson has not appeared in an NFL regular-season game. He was with the Browns in training camp this year and waived in the cut to 75 players.
Aaron Hester -- A first-year cornerback out of UCLA, he was with the Lions until he was waived earlier this week in the cut to 75 players. He has not appeared in an NFL regular-season game after trying to hook on with the Broncos last year as an undrafted free agent.
Rashad Lawrence -- The 6-foot-1, 190-pound rookie receiver out of Northwestern was with Washington in training camp and waived in the cutdown to 75 players. The Patriots practiced against him in early August before New England and Washington faced off in the preseason opener.
Jeff Mathews -- Rookie quarterback from Cornell who went undrafted was with the Falcons in training camp and was part of their initial cuts, as those who watched "Hard Knocks" saw this past Tuesday.
Kevin Reddick -- Second-year linebacker out of North Carolina, he appeared in 16 games for the Saints last season (0 starts) as a core special teamer. The 6-foot-1, 246-pound Reddick was waived as part of the Saints' cut to 75 players earlier this week.
Jerome Smith -- Rookie running back from Syracuse, who went undrafted, was with the Falcons in training camp and waived in the cut to 75 players.
MeLeod Bethel-Thompson -- Third-year quarterback out of Sacramento State has been with the Vikings (2012-2013) and 49ers (2013). The 6-foot-3, 230-pound signal-caller was with San Francisco this training camp and part of cuts to get down to 75 players.