Are the Patriots Overly Focused on Dollars and the Bottom Line?

TheoShmeo

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Over the last several weeks and particularly over the last few days, a theme has emerged that the Patriots are more focused on dollars than being a Super Bowl contender.  We're hearing that they are more financially driven than championship driven.
 
Tommy Kelly's widely quoted comments were along those lines:   
 
“I saw the situation and I realized I probably wouldn’t be there,” Kelly told the Cardinals team website. “I couldn’t take busting my tail every day getting to a game and them taking me out of the game for someone who I know isn’t better than me, because he’s a cheaper option. Are we worried about money here? Or are we worried about winning?”
http://www.providencejournal.com/sports/patriots/content/20140929-tommy-kelly-questions-patriots-commitment-to-winning.ece
 
Similarly, Tom Brady was seen talking with Trent Dilfer and Steve Young before the Chiefs debacle, and those two were very critical of the Mankins move (a move Tom reportedly hated), and raised similar questions about the Pats' aspirations.  They didn't connect the dots as tightly to saving money as some others have, but they did say that the Pats have not given Tom adequate weapons or protection on the offensive line.
 
http://boston.cbslocal.com/2014/09/30/espns-steve-young-trent-dilfer-very-critical-of-patriots-management/
 
Ben Volin tackles the issue, at least partially, in his article in today's Globe.  He points out the many areas that the Patriots should have addressed this past off season and their current $14 mm salary cap excess, among other things.
 
http://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/2014/09/30/patriots-should-have-done-more-this-offseason/Tuo1sO254rgP7STwvN0OKM/story.html
 
Then there's the Mankins move itself.  While there were reports of Mankins having slipped in recent years, he was by all accounts the leader of the offensive line, arguably the best of the Pats linemen and someone who Brady valued highly.  The move seemed to be largely financially driven and horribly timed, and evoked memories of similar late training camp ejections of accomplished veterans in prior years (Seymour and Milloy).
 
Pardon me for including the CHB in this post (and please do not click on that link), but he summarizes what a lot of people have been saying -- though in classic Curly Haired Bitch fashion, in the midst of an article supposedly decrying the piling on going on now -- about the Patriots' self inflicted problems, as follows:
 
 
 
But the dirty little secret, of course, is that the Patriots really haven’t been championship-driven for a while. Artificially inflated by their fortunate spot in the Warhol, they have settled for a string of Adams Division flags while compiling almost zero impressive wins in January.
 
 
 
http://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/2014/09/30/patriots-went-down-hard-and-there-lot-piling/thvbeAZAPiiuRhTMzOCBCL/story.html
 
Finally, the Patriots are reportedly -- according to Miguel's cap analysis -- 31st in spending on player salaries for 2014. 
 
http://boston.cbslocal.com/2014/09/30/belichick-doesnt-always-do-whats-best-for-the-team/
 
******
 
So what are we to make of all of this?  Is it an overreaction to a brutal loss?  Or is there some truth to the allegation that BB/Kraft have somehow morphed into Sinden/Jacobs, or that they have always been that and just managed to hide it or manage around it well over the years?  Or putting aside the comparisons to the Bs of the past, is the focus on money indeed part of why they have seemingly regressed and left the cupboard too bare.  (Yes, it's only 4 games, and maybe they will somehow do what they always seem to do and play better as the season progresses).
 
There are obvious counters.  One, the Pats have been wildly successful, and it's convenient now to look for easy excuses.  Two, the recent Revis contract shows that they are willing to spend.  Three, the mantra out of Foxboro has been for years that the Pats spend on the whole roster for depth reasons rather than on just the upper tier.  Four, as some have pointed out, if the Pats want to make money, a good way to do that is to go deep into the post-season, so the connect the dots arguments being made right now are overly simplistic.  Five, the Patriots indeed have spent big on some other contracts -- Amendola and Arrignton, to name a few -- and while the return has not been good, it's unfair to ignore those efforts.  Maybe the problem is that they just aren't good at roster construction, not that they are cheapskates.
 
Speaking for myself, I have some trouble believing that BB/Kraft are so myopic as to have made the Mankins move, for example, largely to improve Kraft's return.  That ignores some of the supposed benefits of the move (a needed offensive option in Wright, who has inexplicably been ignored for the most part since he arrived, the 4th round pick, the chance to use the salary cap savings on locking up McCourty or Revis, and the hope that whoever would replace Mankins would give the Pats performance that was not far off what they would have gotten from Logan). My instinct is also that given the scale of the Pats' operation, it is hard to believe that saving $6-7 mm on a player would be how they would make it all work.
 
Still, the points made in Volin's column resonate with me.  Before the season, I was more than a little bit agitated at the Pats' failure to do more than add Brandon LaFell to the receiving corps and hope that the sophomores would all somehow turn the corner.  I posted that here a few times and the response from some was that with Gronk back, they would be fine.  Indeed, I think a lot of people in the football universe thought that.  I was also baffled by their failure to add a pass rushing specialist and their apparent decision not to bid on any of the available defensive ends this past off season.  I don't think I mentioned that here but I know that many others did so.
 
In any event, I will be curious to see how people react to this.
 

jsinger121

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Definitely something worth discussing and many legit points. Why was McCourty not taken care of after this past off season?
 
Frankly I think you can put the Patriots inability to pay for top assistant coaches and have the smallest staff in the league into this category as well as its tied into the equation.
 

Ralphwiggum

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Here is my bottom line on this: Why would Bill Belichick want to be associated with a franchise that he thought was not fully committed to winning football games?  Does he seem like the kind of guy who would be interested in helping his billionaire owner earn an couple extra million at the expense of his ability to win football games?  Particularly when he could just retire now, enjoy his millions and wait for his induction into Canton?
 
Since, by all accounts, Bill has final say on all player personnel related moves, you have to answer that question for me before I can believe that the Krafts are running the team with a view towards anything other than winning Championships.
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

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Can we PLEASE put the CHB-inspired notion about the division to rest? Goddamnit, this isn't difficult to debunk.
 
Shank asserts that the Pats beat up on the division and that's what drives their records. Since the 2009 season (the first full year for Brady after the ACL surgery), the Pats have an .800 winning percentage in the division (good for roughly a 13-3 season record) and a .750 winning percentage outside the division (12-4). They are not in ANY WAY just a team with a good record because their division sucks. I don't care how many times Dan Fucking Shaughnessy says so, it's simply not true and we should know better than to give him any space in which to repeat his bullshit.
 
The Pats have won at pretty much the same rate outside the division as within it. If the division sucks, then ergo so does the rest of the NFL. End of story.
 
Carry on.
 

Jettisoned

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The long knives have certainly come out quickly for Belichick.  Usually it takes a full season or two of struggling before a HC's methods and abilities are questioned.  BB's head is suddenly on the chopping block after one bad game and the prospect of a tough season.
 

Ralphwiggum

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jsinger121 said:
Definitely something worth discussing and many legit points. Why was McCourty not taken care of after this past off season?
 
Frankly I think you can put the Patriots inability to pay for top assistant coaches and have the smallest staff in the league into this category as well as its tied into the equation.
 
This makes no sense to me either.  Is Bill Belichick in on this whole thins with Kraft?  Like he asked for more money for assistants and Kraft says I'll split the savings with you fi you can do more with less?
 
The Krafts just spent millions renovating the Gillette stadium facilities, presumably to make it better for the players and easier for them to work out, eat right, etc.  They could hire a whole stable of low level assistants for what that cost.  Even a high priced, high profile coordinator isn't remotely expensive compared to what they are paying Matthew Slater this year.
 

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Ralphwiggum said:
Here is my bottom line on this: Why would Bill Belichick want to be associated with a franchise that he thought was not fully committed to winning football games?  Does he seem like the kind of guy who would be interested in helping his billionaire owner earn an couple extra million at the expense of his ability to win football games?  Particularly when he could just retire now, enjoy his millions and wait for his induction into Canton?
 
Since, by all accounts, Bill has final say on all player personnel related moves, you have to answer that question for me before I can believe that the Krafts are running the team with a view towards anything other than winning Championships.
 
This has always been the best answer to this question.  What would be Belichick's motivation to line Kraft's pocket?
 
There is a ton of room to argue the methods and the choices, but I firmly believe the motivation behind those methods and choices have been to win Super Bowls.
 

themuddychicken

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I think Betteridge's Law of Headlines answers this question for us - no.
 
This isn't the old NFL. The modern salary cap is really simple, with every dollar you spend counting against the cap and any shortage rolling over to the next year. Any attempt to save money on the roster would show up in an ongoing salary cap shortage and would add up year after year. They usually roll over something like $5 million every year (something I've read local media bitch about before), and if $5 million gets rolled into one year and $5 million rolls over into the next year - wait for it - that means they spent the full cap that year.
 
Now granted this year it looks like they may not get down to $5 million. You have to assume that a big part of that is the $5 million they're carrying into next season from Revis's deal (they're paying him $12 million but the cap hit is only $7 million and they have to absorb the other $5 million next season, whether they extend him or he walks), but you can also expect some extensions (like McCourty) eating into that. Some of it may have also been intended for Soldier before he inexplicably started sucking this year. Anyway, you can't judge how much they're rolling over into the next season on October 1st.
 
It shouldn't be surprising that someone like Tommy Kelly has a self-centered view and doesn't understand the salary cap, and it is no surprise that the local media doesn't care about silly things like the salary cap rules when there's a nervous fanbase to push over the edge. But we shouldn't really care what they say if there isn't substance backing them up, which in this case there isn't. NE uses up most of their cap space every year and rolls the rest forward.
 

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Jettisoned said:
The long knives have certainly come out quickly for Belichick.  Usually it takes a full season or two of struggling before a HC's methods and abilities are questioned.  BB's head is suddenly on the chopping block after one bad game and the prospect of a tough season.
 
They've been waiting to cut a slice off of BB/Kraft/the Pats for years. The Pats have never really given them the opportunity. Now they finally have one, so all that pent-up resentment is rushing out.
 

JimD

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The NFL in the salary cap era is specifically not designed to allow a dynasty to continue unabated through the free agent market or even by paying to keep all of a team's homegrown stars.  Couple this with a high number of wins year after year and the Patriots are never able to be in a position to draft a generational talent or two.
 
Maybe the fans would be happier to have a few down years.  We know Shank certainly would be.
 

TheoShmeo

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Smiling Joe Hesketh said:
Can we PLEASE put the CHB-inspired notion about the division to rest? Goddamnit, this isn't difficult to debunk.
 
Shank asserts that the Pats beat up on the division and that's what drives their records. Since the 2009 season (the first full year for Brady after the ACL surgery), the Pats have an .800 winning percentage in the division (good for roughly a 13-3 season record) and a .750 winning percentage outside the division (12-4). They are not in ANY WAY just a team with a good record because their division sucks. I don't care how many times Dan Fucking Shaughnessy says so, it's simply not true and we should know better than to give him any space in which to repeat his bullshit.
 
The Pats have won at pretty much the same rate outside the division as within it. If the division sucks, then ergo so does the rest of the NFL. End of story.
 
Carry on.
SJH, my point wasn't to give any credence to the CHB's division theory.  I frankly should not have quoted him at all as he creates an easy distraction.  
 
As to the other responses thus far, I think the point about BB not willing to be associated with or live with penny pinching is a very strong one.  At the same time, I don't think it totally answers up the various moves and non-moves over the years and especially this season.  Make no mistake about this, my agenda here is not to crap on the Patriots.  If anything, I'm generally pro-management when it comes to the Patriots (and the Red Sox) and am often accused by friends of being overly so.  And whether this is the topic du jour or the knives are out, the $14 mm under the cap and 31st in player spending factors are, for me at least, eye catching and cause me to think twice.
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

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TheoShmeo said:
SJH, my point wasn't to give any credence to the CHB's division theory.  I frankly should not have quoted him at all as he creates an easy distraction.  
 
As to the other responses thus far, I think the point about BB not willing to be associated with or live with penny pinching is a very strong one.  At the same time, I don't think it totally answers up the various moves and non-moves over the years and especially this season.  Make no mistake about this, my agenda here is not to crap on the Patriots.  If anything, I'm generally pro-management when it comes to the Patriots (and the Red Sox) and am often accused by friends of being overly so.  And whether this is the topic du jour or the knives are out, the $14 mm under the cap and 31st in player spending factors are, for me at least, eye catching and cause me to think twice.
 
No worries, just never quote or use CHB again. He never has any point to make. We'll all be better off.
 
Kraft himself is quoted as saying a big part of that unused cap space is set aside for possible player incentives. Wilfork has $3 million in incentives this year, Vollmer $2 million, Mayo $300K. So the cap cushion probably isn't realistically $14 million this year.
 

RedOctober3829

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Smiling Joe Hesketh said:
 
No worries, just never quote or use CHB again. He never has any point to make. We'll all be better off.
 
Kraft himself is quoted as saying a big part of that unused cap space is set aside for possible player incentives. Wilfork has $3 million in incentives this year, Vollmer $2 million, Mayo $300K. So the cap cushion probably isn't realistically $14 million this year.
Could also be room in there for extensions such as McCourty.
 

TheoShmeo

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Smiling Joe Hesketh said:
 
No worries, just never quote or use CHB again. He never has any point to make. We'll all be better off.
 
Kraft himself is quoted as saying a big part of that unused cap space is set aside for possible player incentives. Wilfork has $3 million in incentives this year, Vollmer $2 million, Mayo $300K. So the cap cushion probably isn't realistically $14 million this year.
As to the CHB, aye aye (unless I can't resist dumping on him in the CHB dumping in our mouths thread).
 
Volin's response to Kraft the Younger on the unused cap point you made was:
 
All of that is true, although a lot of good things will have to happen — such as Mayo reaching the Pro Bowl or Wilfork playing 70 percent of snaps — for the Patriots to have to pay the full value of the incentives.
 
Still, Kraft was being a little disingenuous. The Patriots had the ability to make more moves in the offseason than they did. The salary cap is a myth. Teams always can find ways to get under it.
 
I don't view that as a complete answer.  At the same time, $14 mm seems like a big number and I thought after the Mankins trade that we would see a corresponding move.  Maybe we still will later on.
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

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The whole "cap is crap!" argument is directly from Felger's mouth and is complete nonsense. Ask the fucking Jets how that strategy turned out. Volin should know better than to parrot that and I'm disappointed in that line of answer.
 

DJnVa

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A team that has won more than any other team the last 13 years (and was in the frigging AFC title game last year) suddenly doesn't care about winning.
 
Jesus, this week sucks. Please beat the Bengals.
 

riboflav

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I'll contradict my previous post...
 
This exercise is a complete waste of time without a shred of viable evidence to support its misguided theory. As already pointed out the Patriots rely heavily on bonus-laden contracts and must account for that. Maybe if we started from the premise that BB is not perfect and makes real mistakes (which we have actual evidence of) instead of conjuring troll-like, bogus theories to help explain the fact that the Patriots have been to three consecutive AFC championship games but haven't won the SB in 10 years (10 years!!) we could get somewhere.
 
Don't be so naive and stop listening to sports radio (and reading Ben Volin). We'd all be better off.
 

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Is 31st in player spending a cash number?  Does it adjust for the fact that the Pats are spending $2MM on Tom Brady's salary this year?  What does it look like if you take total cash compensation to Brady over the life of his contract and pro-rate it over each year?  What have the Pats ranked in player spending over the last five seasons?
 
Its a meaningless, and frankly lazy, stat to put out there without context.
 
Unused cap space can be rolled.  I think its certainly fair to criticize the product they put on the field and whether they should have made different choices under the cap, kept Mankins, signed a DE etc, but being $14MM under the cap at any given point in time tells us exactly zero about willingness to spend.  The Revis dead money and extension points were made earlier.
 
My honest opinion is that this line of criticism is stupid.  Not that it shouldnt be discussed or anything, but I think its silly.
 

Toe Nash

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Ugh, this is not complicated.
 
The Patriots have not had a down year since 2003. They only missed the playoffs once when their QB missed the year and they still won 11 games. Every other franchise has had at least one bad year and usually more.
 
With the cap, it's not like you can really go all-out -- if you do, you're going to pay for it later. With personnel, they never go all-out in one year at the expense of future years. Sometimes that means letting a guy go when he can still play but isn't worth his contract. Maybe they have sacrificed the chance to win 15 games or something but they are in position to contend every year and IT'S JUST BAD LUCK that they don't have two Super Bowls since 2004.
 
I'm annoyed that TheoShmeo spent all that time typing out his first post because the entire point is so asinine. They may have made poor decisions this year which might lead to an off year. But it's not because they aren't willing to spend or are too focused on profit or some other garbage. This isn't the fucking Rays.
 

riboflav

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TheoShmeo said:
As to the CHB, aye aye (unless I can't resist dumping on him in the CHB dumping in our mouths thread).
 
Volin's response to Kraft the Younger on the unused cap point you made was:
 
I don't view that as a complete answer.  At the same time, $14 mm seems like a big number and I thought after the Mankins trade that we would see a corresponding move.  Maybe we still will later on.
 
"Teams always can find ways to get under..." Except for those who have been penalized for not being under (e.g. Steelers and Broncos).
 

TheoShmeo

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Hey, if there's nothing to see here, that's fine, I have no anti-Pats agenda.  As I said, my inclinations are like those who don't think there's anything to Pats as cheapskates mantra. 
 
But the issue is being discussed, like it or not, and not just by idiots on sports radio.  I think there's a value in setting forth the various reasons why those who are pushing this point are wrong.
 
And Toe Nash, not to worry, I wasn't billing anyone for that time!
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

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TS, again, no worries, it's well worth asking questions. But nuance and context are needed and sadly Volin didn't provide any. I can't emphasize enough how juvenile the "they should have found a way around the cap!" response from him really is.
 
I wished he did more digging as to why the Pats let Blount go, or if they seriously considered signing any of the players he says would be good fits. Maybe they looked into some of them and couldn't reach terms? Maybe they were careless? Seems that's a better question to ask.
 

Stitch01

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For context, Patriots cash spending ranks
 
2013: 14th in cash spending (overthecap)
2012: 2nd (Mike Reiss)
2011:
2010: 2nd (Mike Reiss)
 
I can't find 2011 as easily, but doesn't really seem like they arent spending cash.
 

TheoShmeo

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Smiling Joe Hesketh said:
TS, again, no worries, it's well worth asking questions. But nuance and context are needed and sadly Volin didn't provide any. I can't emphasize enough how juvenile the "they should have found a way around the cap!" response from him really is.
 
I wished he did more digging as to why the Pats let Blount go, or if they seriously considered signing any of the players he says would be good fits. Maybe they looked into some of them and couldn't reach terms? Maybe they were careless? Seems that's a better question to ask.
I agree that his "you can get around the cap" point is wrong headed and simplistic.  But the major thrust of his column seems harder to deflect.  The Pats had various seemingly obvious holes that they did not address in the off season.  Or only partially addressed. The needs at WR, TE and pass rushing d-lineman were noted by many here and elsewhere.  After the Mankins move, many immediately worried that they were not well enough stocked there.  There are all kinds of explanations for not doing more that do not relate to finances, to be sure.  
 
 
 

8slim

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The issue is certainly not that the Pats are cheap, don't want to spend money, etc.
 
The issue is that the Pats have a distinct organizational philosophy about HOW to spend their money.  Some don't care for it, apparently.  I'm sure those folks have enjoyed the annual double-digit wins they've piled up since 2003 though.
 
We may be seeing that we're in for a tougher-than-usual year because Bill whiffed on some things.  I too would have liked to have seen them better address some of the positions others have mentioned.  But Bill's certainly earned himself some slack, he's been right a helluva lot more often than he's been wrong.
 

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TheoShmeo said:
I agree that his "you can get around the cap" point is wrong headed and simplistic.  But the major thrust of his column seems harder to deflect.  The Pats had various seemingly obvious holes that they did not address in the off season.  Or only partially addressed. The needs at WR, TE and pass rushing d-lineman were noted by many here and elsewhere.  After the Mankins move, many immediately worried that they were not well enough stocked there.  There are all kinds of explanations for not doing more that do not relate to finances, to be sure.  
 
 
 
WR was filled by LaFell. Argue that if you like, but he was decent in Carolina with a lesser QB getting him the ball and he's big, which is what people have been screaming for for ages. Maybe if they bothered to dress Thompkins their Wrs wouldn't be an issue. 
 
TE I agree should have been handled better, and maybe they decided to do that by getting Wright, although getting him and then Brady ignoring him seems odd to me.
 

Stitch01

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To me, this discussion is a miscast argument about whether the Pats should be in GFIN mode during the Brady window or not.  On one side, there's an argument that the Pats should have been and should be willing to risk cap jail a few years down the line to maximize the chances of winning one more title during the Brady window. 
 
On the other side, there's the argument they're going to try their best to be competitive every year and, while Brady is the most important cog in the machine, he's still a cog in the machine.
 
The Pats are pretty clearly choosing the latter, and we can debate whether that's right.

That can be tied back into money in a way, its probably better financially to have a contender or at least decent team every year rather than risking turning the on field product into a tire fire for a few seasons because you've wasted a bunch of cap space trying to get Brady a 4th ring, but saying the Pats are cheap or won't spend is pretty inaccurate.
 

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I just can't fathom that people are fomenting dissent with the Patriots on the basis that they haven't been "championship driven" in "some time", when they were in the fucking Superbowl less than 3 years ago, and followed that up with back-to-back AFC Championship game appearances.
 
I mean, that should be up next to "cognitive dissonance" in the dictionary.  
 

Stitch01

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TheoShmeo said:
I agree that his "you can get around the cap" point is wrong headed and simplistic.  But the major thrust of his column seems harder to deflect.  The Pats had various seemingly obvious holes that they did not address in the off season.  Or only partially addressed. The needs at WR, TE and pass rushing d-lineman were noted by many here and elsewhere.  After the Mankins move, many immediately worried that they were not well enough stocked there.  There are all kinds of explanations for not doing more that do not relate to finances, to be sure.  
 
 
That's the thing, there's really no need or no evidence to bring "the Pats won't spend money into" it.  Plenty of room for criticism on both the player evaluation and team planning front right now, but its not really because of cash out the door and that points criticism at Bob Kraft that I think belongs on BB and the football operations team.
 

Ralphwiggum

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TheoShmeo said:
I agree that his "you can get around the cap" point is wrong headed and simplistic.  But the major thrust of his column seems harder to deflect.  The Pats had various seemingly obvious holes that they did not address in the off season.  Or only partially addressed. The needs at WR, TE and pass rushing d-lineman were noted by many here and elsewhere.  After the Mankins move, many immediately worried that they were not well enough stocked there.  There are all kinds of explanations for not doing more that do not relate to finances, to be sure.  
 
 
 
But why is "they are more interested in making money than winning" a better explanation than "they made a bunch of mistakes this offseason in player evaluation?"
 
Given the last 15 years of history in this franchise, I just cannot fathom why someone would make the immediate leap to they don't want to win.  It makes zero sense to me, both because I don't believe that the coach would go along with that for one second, and also because they are the winningest organization in the league over the last decade and a half, the only franchise in the entire sport that has not had one "down" year during that stretch.
 
I am not picking on you Theo but one of the worst things about many Pats fans since the last Super Bowl win is the desperate need to find "THE REASON" why they have not won again.  Other than the fact that IT IS REALLY FUCKING HARD TO WIN SUPER BOWLS, there is no one reason why they have not won.
 

TheoShmeo

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Ralphwiggum said:
 
But why is "they are more interested in making money than winning" a better explanation than "they made a bunch of mistakes this offseason in player evaluation?"
 
Given the last 15 years of history in this franchise, I just cannot fathom why someone would make the immediate leap to they don't want to win.  It makes zero sense to me, both because I don't believe that the coach would go along with that for one second, and also because they are the winningest organization in the league over the last decade and a half, the only franchise in the entire sport that has not had one "down" year during that stretch.
 
I am not picking on you Theo but one of the worst things about many Pats fans since the last Super Bowl win is the desperate need to find "THE REASON" why they have not won again.  Other than the fact that IT IS REALLY FUCKING HARD TO WIN SUPER BOWLS, there is no one reason why they have not won.
Valid points all, Ralph.
 
And I don't feel defensive because the immediate leap you mention is not one I've made.  I mentioned many of your points in my opening post and also noted that they just might figure out what ails them before too long, making the need to find ANY explanation for the current situation a waste of time.  None of us forgets the "they hate their coach" bullshit in 2003, either.  
 
Like I said, I think there's a value in effectively debunking one of the theories du jour, and have absolutely no stake in the argument that the Pats are overly focused on the bottom line.
 

Morgan's Magic Snowplow

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Stitch01 said:
To me, this discussion is a miscast argument about whether the Pats should be in GFIN mode during the Brady window or not.  On one side, there's an argument that the Pats should have been and should be willing to risk cap jail a few years down the line to maximize the chances of winning one more title during the Brady window. 
 
On the other side, there's the argument they're going to try their best to be competitive every year and, while Brady is the most important cog in the machine, he's still a cog in the machine.
 
The Pats are pretty clearly choosing the latter, and we can debate whether that's right.
That can be tied back into money in a way, its probably better financially to have a contender or at least decent team every year rather than risking turning the on field product into a tire fire for a few seasons because you've wasted a bunch of cap space trying to get Brady a 4th ring, but saying the Pats are cheap or won't spend is pretty inaccurate.
Stitch nails it, as usual.
 

mauf

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If the Pats had gone 10-6 a year ago and lost in the first round, this year's performance would be expected to some degree. Last year's team overachieved, however, so if the Pats go 8-8 this season (and that would be my prediction right now), the dimmer lights in the local media will see it as a collapse that must have been precipitated by greedy and/or foolish decisions, rather than by the NFL's parity rules finally having their designed effect on a team that had defied the gravitational effect of those rules for a remarkable (perhaps even unprecedented) length of time.
 

Cabin Mirror

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TheoShmeo said:
 
 
Similarly, Tom Brady was seen talking with Trent Dilfer and Steve Young before the Chiefs debacle, and those two were very critical of the Mankins move (a move Tom reportedly hated), and raised similar questions about the Pats' aspirations.  They didn't connect the dots as tightly to saving money as some others have, but they did say that the Pats have not given Tom adequate weapons or protection on the offensive line.
 
http://boston.cbslocal.com/2014/09/30/espns-steve-young-trent-dilfer-very-critical-of-patriots-management/
 
 
 
 
Out of curiosity, does anyone here believe that Brady was actually whining to Young and Dilfer that the Krafts/BB are screwing him by not fielding a legit OL nor supplying him with Moss-like WRs?
 
On my ride home yesterday, Adam Jones was stating the above as obvious fact. Now, AJ clearly has an objective to engage listeners in a provocative way, but I thought it was borderline insane. Am I being naive? 
 

Valek123

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maufman said:
If the Pats had gone 10-6 a year ago and lost in the first round, this year's performance would be expected to some degree. Last year's team overachieved, however, so if the Pats go 8-8 this season (and that would be my prediction right now), the dimmer lights in the local media will see it as a collapse that must have been precipitated by greedy and/or foolish decisions, rather than by the NFL's parity rules finally having their designed effect on a team that had defied the gravitational effect of those rules for a remarkable (perhaps even unprecedented) length of time.
 
These are my feelings also, last year the Pats seemed to get by on smoke and mirrors and a cohesive unit covering deficiencies across the board for much of the season.  This has been a rough start to the season, in no game has the team clicked for 4 quarters.  They look solid for a half then get exposed when the offense stumbles.  The D isn't great at the moment, OL is brutal, receivers are on a constant shuttle between active/inactive plus aren't getting open and Brady seems to have happy feet due to being planted constantly.
 
It's a rough start, we've seen these before but now there is no Hernandez, No late 20's early 30's Brady and the media is diving in for the kill it's been looking to get for years.
 
2-2, 12 to go we'll know what much of the future will hold at the bye week, here's hoping the OL tightens up ASAP so a 37 y/o Brady is still standing by then. 
 

ifmanis5

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Smiling Joe Hesketh said:
BTW, Grantland has a good piece on the Saints, who went "all in" for this year under the 'cap is crap' philosophy and are currently $16 million over next year's cap, yet are struggling in many ways. So people bitching about the Pats' salary cap management should be cautious about getting what they ask for.
Exactly. There's also many examples in other sports where teams spent like drunken sailors only to come away with nothing to show for it.
 
That said, get ready for all the knives to come out against the Pats at the soonest sign of weakness. They made no friends in the media during their ascent and to be honest, that was kind of refreshing. Not leaking gossip to Peter King and the Barons of Bristol will come back to bite them once they aren't elite anymore.
 

soxfan121

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drleather2001 said:
I just can't fathom that people are fomenting dissent with the Patriots on the basis that they haven't been "championship driven" in "some time", when they were in the fucking Superbowl less than 3 years ago, and followed that up with back-to-back AFC Championship game appearances.
 
I mean, that should be up next to "cognitive dissonance" in the dictionary.  
 
Yup. Steve Young said that "championship driven" nonsense in the postgame and I am flabbergasted that it went unchallenged. 
 
You know who isn't "championship driven"? The Jacksonville Jaguars. 
 
GTFO of here with that stupidity. drleather is right - cognitive dissonance, indeed.
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

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ifmanis5 said:
Exactly. There's also many examples in other sports where teams spent like drunken sailors only to come away with nothing to show for it.
 
That said, get ready for all the knives to come out against the Pats at the soonest sign of weakness. They made no friends in the media during their ascent and to be honest, that was kind of refreshing. Not leaking gossip to Peter King and the Barons of Bristol will come back to bite them once they aren't elite anymore.
 
Meh. They're already out, and it's entirely expected, and that's fine.
 
These questions are uninteresting, honestly. I'd much rather know why the Pats are having Revis play in a fucking zone instead of man-to-man. Now THAT's something to really hammer the team on.
 

lexrageorge

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Volin is way out of his depth here.  He should leave the "cap is crap" nonsense to Felger and CHB and Borges.  It is sure fair game to question whether the Pats made the right moves this offseason, especially given that they did have some cap money to spend.  It's OK to question the trade of Mankins given that Wright has been invisible so far.  Belichick has made many good moves as GM, but that doesn't mean we cannot question his mistakes.  
 
However, there is absolutely zero evidence that there is any sort of cash driven motivation behind all the team's moves.  Nada.  
 
Brady had it right during this morning's WEEI interview:  there's no point in going to people that cannot help you win football games when there's a problem, and that includes the media.  
 

Was (Not Wasdin)

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jsinger121 said:
Definitely something worth discussing and many legit points. Why was McCourty not taken care of after this past off season?
 
Frankly I think you can put the Patriots inability to pay for top assistant coaches and have the smallest staff in the league into this category as well as its tied into the equation.
 
Does anyone know how the Pats handle assistant coaches salaries? I seem to recall an article in Forbes or Fortune way back in the early 2000s about the way the Pats did this.  IIRC, it said that BB is a paid a base of $X, and then is given a pool of money to be used on assistants, scouts, etc.  What he doesnt spend, he keeps (hello, "practice management").  The idea was that it allowed the team to lock in the total amount it was paying for its coaching staff, and to pass those headaches (if it is a zero sum game, someone has to lose something for someone else to get something) to BB.  No idea if they still do it this way.   
 

lambeau

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I think the problem is not so much Kraft setting a budget as it is BB hating to "overpay", when that is the very nature of free agency. So we get a relative
bargain in LaFell instead of Sanders or James Jones, he no longer sees Mankins and Welker as good value propositions, and rookies are a great value over free
agent guards. Isn't it obvious that Seattle and Denver are being more aggressive in pursuing excellence over value? Percy Harvin and Demarcus Ware do not
represent good value, but the Patriots are lacking in the talent to be competitive.
 

dynomite

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drleather2001 said:
I just can't fathom that people are fomenting dissent with the Patriots on the basis that they haven't been "championship driven" in "some time", when they were in the fucking Superbowl less than 3 years ago, and followed that up with back-to-back AFC Championship game appearances.
 
I mean, that should be up next to "cognitive dissonance" in the dictionary.  
Agreed.

I have to say, I think this is one of the curses of the completely unprecedented run of sports success in Boston since Drew Bledsoe went down.

What, 8 AFC Championship games, 5 Super Bowl appearances, 5 ALCS appearances, 3 World Series wins, 4 NBA Eastern Conference Finals and a Championship, 2 NHL Conference Finals and a Stanley Cup.

No other city has even approached this, right?

This isn't to say we can't critically discuss our teams, far from it.

I just think it necessarily changes the dynamic of the conversation, especially in comparison to a place like Kansas City, where in the 1st inning TBS was showing fans documenting the historic fact that they had made the playoffs at all.
 

Harry Hooper

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Cabin Mirror said:
 
 
Out of curiosity, does anyone here believe that Brady was actually whining to Young and Dilfer that the Krafts/BB are screwing him by not fielding a legit OL nor supplying him with Moss-like WRs?
 
On my ride home yesterday, Adam Jones was stating the above as obvious fact. Now, AJ clearly has an objective to engage listeners in a provocative way, but I thought it was borderline insane. Am I being naive? 
 
 
Felger said it, so it must be true.
 

Carmine Hose

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It's a fact that Patriot Place is tanking and that is causing the Krafts a financial hit.
 
What that means relative to how they may be squeezing their cash cow is another issue.
 

Ralphwiggum

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Carmine Hose said:
It's a fact that Patriot Place is tanking and that is causing the Krafts a financial hit.
 
What that means relative to how they may be squeezing their cash cow is another issue.
Source (that Patriot Place is tanking)?
 
Edit:  a few minutes of Googling and I cannot find any "facts" supporting the assertion that Patriot Place is taking. 
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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TheoShmeo said:
Ben Volin tackles the issue, at least partially, in his article in today's Globe.  He points out the many areas that the Patriots should have addressed this past off season and their current $14 mm salary cap excess, among other things.
 
* * * *
Finally, the Patriots are reportedly -- according to Miguel's cap analysis -- 31st in spending on player salaries for 2014.
 
One factual note - the $14.5M is clearly incorrect.  It was probably correct before the season started, but now that the season started and it includes practice squad, injury settlements, IR, and more than the top 51 players, Miquel Benzan estimates that the Pats only have about $9.5M left.  See:  http://www.patsfans.com/salary-cap/.
 
As for player salary costs, I suspect that part of the issue is that the Pats have $7.5M in dead money to AH (note they also have $4.25M to Mankins). If AH were still playing, player costs would be higher (and on-field performance probably better).