#DFG: Canceling the Noise
- Thread starter nattysez
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There was one unconfirmed tweet that at least one ball was around 10.5 psi, which is where everyone is getting the 2 psi from. We really don't know any more than that, or if even the mentioned value of 10.5psi is correct.Hendu for Kutch said:
Then provide your own math that disputes the math already posted.genoasalami said:
Edit: Yes, not a full 2 psi, but very close. Was someone rounding when they claimed 2? Are other factors at play? All I'm saying is that the weather could have a significant effect.
Nail on the head. We're getting snippets of factoids, with little or no context or comparison, and humanoids and the press are just running with those factoids.Hendu for Kutch said:
DennyDoyle'sBoil said:
Ball 12 has been in play for a while and warmed up in the player's hands, or sits at the end of the rack near the heater? Still doesn't explain why the Colts' balls weren't affected to the same degree. You can construct scenarios for that (the Colts' ball rack is in front of one of their heaters...in which case they're the ones who are cheating), but it starts to get strained. And it's kind of pointless speculating until the actual NFL report is released; for all we know, the information leaked so far isn't completely accurate, so parsing the details is a fool's errand.
What spectrum are you talking about? The 12.5 -13.5 spectrum? 11 of the 12 balls came in over 2 lbs under 13. Even if the Pats submitted at 12.5, weather isn't dropping that to under 11. If it did, it would mean the Colts would need to submit at over 14.5 to come down to 13 under same conditions.TomRicardo said:
If there is punishment, it should include a short educational film for high school students on the effects of temperature on gas pressure taught by none other the evil mastermind behind Ballghazi.
If you use the ideal Gas Law (pV=nRt) ..which would be the formula to use in this case ...and you plug in a 68° starting temperature and you drop the air temperature to 51° then you would see a 0.4 PSI difference in air pressure. This assumes that every ball was inflated to the MINIMUM NFL requirement of exactly 12.5 PSI .....the resulting drop in pressure based on physics would lower the PSI of the game ball to 12.1 PSI ...not enough to raise any red flags...
DrewDawg said:
If one takes it too extreme shadiness, it could be so that if a ref/opposing player gets suspicious about any particular ball, they can replace it with the one which is within regulations.
This week it's fine for this to lead coverage because only fans of the sport are paying attention. But the front page of yahoo all next week needs to be dedicated to guessing Katy Perry's outfits, commercials deemed too hot to air, tour of Brady's home, video of Russell Wilson with the Rangers and comment from Bo Jackson on the possibility of him playing MLB, Grontkowski in a suit, backstory of Seattle's fullback and vote for your favorite Super Bowl spot of all time. Throw in a retrospective of the Bud Bowl if there is time but do not question the integrity of the game.
Also if you planned on trying to turn the other team in for this, you'd probably make sure you had all of your team's balls in compliance.TomRicardo said:
Something to consider regarding the Colts' batch.
You aren't reading then. Use Kelvin and atmospheric pressure, and you'll be closer to the right answer.genoasalami said:
Edit: Pressure, not temp
You have the pressure wrong: you're using gauge pressure, not absolute pressure. The ideal gas law needs absolute pressure. See my posts upthread. You also need Kelvin or Rankin temperatures.genoasalami said:
SumnerH said:
SumnerH said:
To create plausible doubt of course. There are 12 balls. That's the same number as the number of apostles. Of the apostles, how many are doubters? One. And his name was Thomas. Which is "coincidentally" the same as Thomas Brady's name. Wake up and see the conspiracy people!DrewDawg said:
These guys did the math based on a room temperature of 68 degrees when the balls were inflated, to 51 degree opening kickoff temperature.
But say you wanted the best advantage without having to tamper with the balls post inspection. Wouldn't you just keep the balls overnight in a really warm room, heated to 95 degrees or so, then deflate them to 12.5 just prior to submitting them for inspection. Then they are really cooling down from a higher temperature to the actual game temperature, which could account for an even lower pressure. Also, what was the temperature at halftime, I'm assuming it was somewhat lower than 51 degrees.
I just can't see BB ordering an employee to deliberately tamper with a process that is so specifically outlined in the rule. I could see him directing a process within the rules to ensure the pressure of the balls will be as low as possible if that is what he prefers the team play with.
But say you wanted the best advantage without having to tamper with the balls post inspection. Wouldn't you just keep the balls overnight in a really warm room, heated to 95 degrees or so, then deflate them to 12.5 just prior to submitting them for inspection. Then they are really cooling down from a higher temperature to the actual game temperature, which could account for an even lower pressure. Also, what was the temperature at halftime, I'm assuming it was somewhat lower than 51 degrees.
I just can't see BB ordering an employee to deliberately tamper with a process that is so specifically outlined in the rule. I could see him directing a process within the rules to ensure the pressure of the balls will be as low as possible if that is what he prefers the team play with.
wilked said:
I'm converting PSI to pascals and Fahrenheit to Kelvin. 86,184 Pa and 295.15 K as a starting point
That's a lot of faith to put into a kid working for pennies (for the NFL, incidentally).Return of the Dewey said:
DrewDawg said:
The 22 year old ballboy fucked up and only doctored 11?
If only the Pats were able to tape the sidelines we'd have evidence of what actually happened with the balls.
The most frustrating thing about this is that it's still the stupidest "scandal" I've ever heard of.
It really is akin to a team finding scuffs on a baseball and accusing the other team of violating the sacred rules of baseball.
It really is akin to a team finding scuffs on a baseball and accusing the other team of violating the sacred rules of baseball.
DrewDawg said:
Your scenario has the Pats' balls starting out of spec, which is "something else going on".
My apologist's scenario:
The Pats balls start at 12.5. It's more like 75F in the locker room. It's 45F at halftime, dropping the balls to around 10.9 PSI (the leaks claim most are around 11). One ball has a slow leak or got spiked too many times and is down at 10.5 PSI. The refs measure the balls now, and top them up to 13 PSI. After the game, the Colts balls are moved indoors. The story breaks, and the Colts' balls are measured at their original temperature, so even though they would've also been 1.6 PSI low at halftime they're now back to the original pressure.
I don't actually believe that's what happened, but it's a scenario that could fit the leaked facts without any conspiracies or intentional rule breaking.
Took me a while, but I guess I'm with sumner on this -- without data and facts there is too much we don't know to really have a meaningful conversation. I'm just going to hope for the best that there's an innocuous answer here.
They absolutely could. I am an extremely avid cyclist, I ride around 8500 miles per year, Mostly road, but Cyclocross and Mountain biking. (MTB especially in winter) It is all about tire pressure. I run 115 PSI in road tires. Drop it to 105 PSI I can tell before I am out of my driveway.mulluysavage said:
Mountain bike - I am running a fat tired bike this winter. I run anywhere from 9.5 PSI in rear, 9.0 PSI up front in completely dry conditions, to 7.5 rear, 7.0 front in snow. Night and day.
Cyclocross - all about PSI, as these are cold weather/mud/dry, etc. ALLl that is spoken about pre-race is tire pressure.
When I first started riding fifteen years ago? I could care less what tires I ran, and just pumped them to whatever was on the sidewall. Could not discern changes. With experience....the tread pattern, compound, TPI, all become noticeable. Pressure? Yeah....super easy to tell the differences.
I get it, cycling tires and footballs are apples and oranges, but I think NFL players can play with an under-inflated ball for ten seconds and identify. (Over inflated as well)
This all misses the point anyhow, They were all under-inflated, which blows. Thank GOD they did not win by three. It obviously had no bearing, on the game, and it sucks that it is all over the media.
My thinking is that, outside of New York, Indy, Baltimore, Pittsburgh, and Denver, nobody is going to care that much about this.
I mean, "The balls were a little underinflated" makes most people go "What? And? That's it?"
It's not like Spygate, which sounds ("they were videotaping signals with a camera man hidden in the stands!") a hell of a lot more shady.
I mean, "The balls were a little underinflated" makes most people go "What? And? That's it?"
It's not like Spygate, which sounds ("they were videotaping signals with a camera man hidden in the stands!") a hell of a lot more shady.
genoasalami said:
That's wrong. 12.5 PSI gauge pressure = 27.2 PSI absolute pressure = 187,537 Pascals
I do not think the Ideal Gas Law is going to save the Patriots in this case. Now ..if it was 30 degrees colder at kickoff and the balls came back 2 PSI (10.5 PSI) below minimum pressure then they would have a case ...but 51° is simply not cold enough to drop the PSI of a football 2 PSI
I find it hard to believe a ball boy could deflate 11 balls during a game on a sideline. Apologies if the specific chain-of-command has already been laid out, but what is it? Refs check the balls two hours till kickoff and then what, exactly?
That hit me on Monday, but I kept my thoughts to myself. He's been getting more and more face time (freeze frames, slo-mos, loops) as this issue keeps moving along.DrewDawg said:
Wow, you have opened my eyes.singaporesoxfan said:
As has this article:
http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2015/jan/20/cyber-bradys-and-mind-controlling-drugs-the-next-patriots-scandals
Bolded is the best line of this whole hoo-ha.
How can you not enjoy this craziness? Sod off, ESPN and tabloids! Get ready for OutscoringGate in two weeks.
While there have been significant fears of deflation in Europe and Japan, it unfortunately looks like we should have been watching our own backyards far more closely. Only question now is whether the Fed will start priming the pump again.
genoasalami said:
Which is wrong. When we say a football is at 12.5 PSI, that's the gauge pressure--it's actually at 12.5 PSI more than the external atmosphere. The atmosphere is about 14.7 PSI, so the absolute pressure inside the football (the value you need to use in the ideal gas law) is 12.5+14.7 = 27.2 PSI.
I already corrected you on this one. Please read that post and understand it before posting garbage math.
genoasalami said:
To play devil's advocate a bit, the ambient temperature was 51, but as we all know, it was pouring throughout the game. So first, the rate of heat transfer into the interior of the ball will be enhanced by the water on it, and second, the actual physical temperature of the rain was likely less than 51, possibly by quite a bit.
Van Everyman said:
So many posts in this thread make me want to bang my head against the wall and for reasons that have nothing to do with the Patriots. The culture the NFL would rather the fans not know about is that so many of the players are human garbage who do things off the field that are simply mind-boggling awful and are the kind of thing that would be firing offenses in any normal job. But hey, they're 6'4" #225, have soft hands, and can run a 4.3.
Knowing how to play the game and bend (or break) the rules where they can be bypassed is in no way a product exclusive to the culture of football. You've got MLB players doctoring balls every once in a while for a little extra bite at a key moment, golfers taking their sweet time walking up to their next shot so as not to trigger the shot clock, and I'm sure there are so many other little things in other sports that aren't coming to mind right now. None of that is culture... it's just how the sports are played.