#DFG: Canceling the Noise

[Chuck Schilling]

You have the pressure wrong: you're using gauge pressure, not absolute pressure.  The ideal gas law needs absolute pressure.  See my posts upthread.  You also need Kelvin or Rankin temperatures.
 
 

And gauge pressure will have to be adjusted for the barometric pressure drop from the original measurement at approx 4PM (looks like about 29.9 in per the Wunderground link upthread) and the halftime measurement at about 8:15 (~29.65). That atmospheric pressure drop would tend to make the halftime reading a little higher by what, .1 psi?
I mean, if we're dragging Pascals into this, can't we take this to another level?

 

[Gambler7]

Most of the top NFL writers/insiders, King, Schefter, Rappaport etc, have been quiet or extremely brief. Not sure if it's a good sign or a bad sign. I would think there would be more slow leaks of info after Mort's report.

I give credit to any writers who have treated it this way to this point. We literally have no idea about anything yet, although it doesn't stop most "professional" writers from spewing about things they have no information on. So many embarrassing things on Twitter right now. 

 

[SumnerH]

I find it hard to believe a ball boy could deflate 11 balls during a game on a sideline. Apologies if the specific chain-of-command has already been laid out, but what is it? Refs check the balls two hours till kickoff and then what, exactly?

 
Someone posted that they hold on to them until 10 minutes before kickoff, then return them to the ball boys.  Among the other important pieces of information we're missing is whether that's along the sideline where cameras might be monitoring suspicious activity, or whether it's in the locker room where they could be tampered with before coming out to the sideline.

 

[JimD]

One factoid I'm stuck on is Belichick's 'I didn't know about it until Monday morning' comment.  If Indy reported something amiss and the referees checked the balls at halftime, it's inconceivable that the Patriots would be unaware.  At minimum, they would know that their game balls were being switched out.  And if Belichick was aware that they were caught trying to get away with underinflated footballs, why be so cute with the media with his comment?

 

[CaptainLaddie]

Genoasalami just got told to go get his fuckin shinebox.

 

[Bob420]

 
 
Kickoff doesn't matter though does it?
 
It's from the pregame measurement inside a 75 degree room, to the 45 at halftime.

Then how would Colt footballs pass this pre game check and still be at 13 lbs? They would need to be over inflated by 2lbs which the refs would catch if the balls were checked.

 

[genoasalami]

 
Which is wrong.  When we say a football is at 12.5 PSI, that's the gauge pressure--it's actually at 12.5 PSI more than the external atmosphere.  The atmosphere is about 14.7 PSI, so the absolute pressure inside the football (the value you need to use in the ideal gas law) is 12.5+14.7 = 27.2 PSI.
 
I already corrected you on this one.  Please read that post and understand it before posting garbage math.

 
I'm sorry it was "garbage math" Thanks for straightening out my error. 

 

[SumnerH]

 
To play devil's advocate a bit, the ambient temperature was 51, but as we all know, it was pouring throughout the game. So first, the rate of heat transfer into the interior of the ball will be enhanced by the water on it, and second, the actual physical temperature of the rain was likely less than 51, possibly by quite a bit.

 
Evaporative cooling!  The balls are below ambient temperature!  Eureka!
 
(Not serious).

 

[Tito's Pullover]

Are the ball"boys" really boys, here?  A billion dollar organization can't afford grown-ass men (or women) to handle something apparently so sacred to the integrity of the game?
 
Either you have appropriately compensated league officials in charge of the balls from start to finish, or you concede that you don't give a shit about ball pressure and that all of this is a complete farce.

 

[SumnerH]

 
Can BB call you as a witness for the defense?

 
Sure, but he's going to be unhappy when I conclude that there's still about a half a PSI not accounted for by temperature even in the best case scenario.
 
Unless the facts aren't as leaked so far.

 

[Hoya81]

One factoid I'm stuck on is Belichick's 'I didn't know about it until Monday morning' comment.  If Indy reported something amiss and the referees checked the balls at halftime, it's inconceivable that the Patriots would be unaware.  At minimum, they would know that their game balls were being switched out.  And if Belichick was aware that they were caught trying to get away with underinflated footballs, why be so cute with the media with his comment?

I think he was referring to the league review.

 

[DJnVa]

Then how would Colt footballs pass this pre game check and still be at 13 lbs? They would need to be over inflated by 2lbs which the refs would catch if the balls were checked.

 
All we've heard is that the Colts balls were fine. If they started at a higher pressure, the loss of pressure would still have them in the legal range.
 
Colts checked and are at 13.5 and fall to 12.5. No issues with pregame or whenever they were checked again.
 
Pats checked and are at 12.5 and fall to 11.5 and the whole world goes insane. Both sets dropped about the same.

 

[Return of the Dewey]

My thinking is that, outside of New York, Indy, Baltimore, Pittsburgh, and Denver, nobody is going to care that much about this.
 
I mean, "The balls were a little underinflated" makes most people go "What?  And? That's it?"  
 
It's not like Spygate, which sounds ("they were videotaping signals with a camera man hidden in the stands!") a hell of a lot more shady.

 
As a Jets fan living in CT, the only reason that I'm paying any attention to this is because I find it extremely amusing how people, especially Pats fans, are getting worked up over this.  Why do you guys care?  The Pats are going to the Super Bowl....again!  Are fans so bored with going to and winning the Super Bowl?  Now, it has to be going to and winning the Super Bowl without any "controversies"?
 
Believe me, any Jets fan would take 10x the number of quasi-scandals and hatred to just experience having the Jets GO to the Super Bowl....46 years and counting since last one (and I wasn't alive for that).

 

[Corsi]

Jeff Passan ‏@JeffPassan  1m1 minute ago
From sound of it, DeflateGate is a lot like pitchers using sunscreen to get a better grip on balls. Everyone does it. No one really cares.

 

[lexrageorge]

One factoid I'm stuck on is Belichick's 'I didn't know about it until Monday morning' comment.  If Indy reported something amiss and the referees checked the balls at halftime, it's inconceivable that the Patriots would be unaware.  At minimum, they would know that their game balls were being switched out.  And if Belichick was aware that they were caught trying to get away with underinflated footballs, why be so cute with the media with his comment?

Belichick is under no obligation to be 100% honest with the media.  His comment could be correct, depending on what he meant by "it".  Given that there was an active investigation at the time, it's in his and the team's best interest to say as little as possible. 
 
He has an approach with the media that works; no need to change that in order to pacify Breer and the other stooges. 

 

[Comfortably Lomb]

Here's a question that no one seems to be asking: why does the NFL have the rule set at 12.5-13.5? Did they do some research and determine this is where a football should be for some legitimate reason or did they just inflate a few balls, pick a couple, measure them, and wing the range for the sake of some sort of consistency when they wrote the rule? Because it makes no sense why they choose the numbers they did since a ball over or under-inflated relative to the guidelines seems very useable.

 

[ivanvamp]

Are the ball"boys" really boys, here?  A billion dollar organization can't afford grown-ass men (or women) to handle something apparently so sacred to the integrity of the game?
 
Either you have appropriately compensated league officials in charge of the balls from start to finish, or you concede that you don't give a shit about ball pressure and that all of this is a complete farce.

 
This is a great point.  If the precise conditions of the ball are so crucial to the integrity of the game, why on earth do they let each team prepare their own footballs?  Why don't they have these things kept under lock and key?  Why do they allow employees of the team get access to them before the game?  
 
Clearly, NOBODY CARES about exactly how much air pressure is in the ball.  NOBODY.  But now, because the Colts made a stink, it's the biggest crisis since….well, since the last manufactured controversy surrounding the Patriots came up.

 

[Oil Can Dan]

Are the ball"boys" really boys, here?  A billion dollar organization can't afford grown-ass men (or women) to handle something apparently so sacred to the integrity of the game?
 
Either you have appropriately compensated league officials in charge of the balls from start to finish, or you concede that you don't give a shit about ball pressure and that all of this is a complete farce.

From my experience they're 22 or so year old kids that are intern types.

 

[semsox]

 
Evaporative cooling!  The balls are below ambient temperature!  Eureka!
 
(Not serious).

 
Wasn't suggesting evaporative cooling, but if the rain is, say, closer to 40 degrees than 50, then the ball surface is going to be closer to the rain temperature than the ambient air.

 

[Shelterdog]

That hit me on Monday, but I kept my thoughts to myself.  He's been getting more and more face time (freeze frames, slo-mos, loops) as this issue keeps moving along.

 
I looked and the ball Boys aren't listed in the media guide.

 

[SumnerH]

 
All we've heard is that the Colts balls were fine. If they started at a higher pressure, the loss of pressure would still have them in the legal range.
 
Colts checked and are at 13.5 and fall to 12.5. No issues with pregame or whenever they were checked again.
 
Pats checked and are at 12.5 and fall to 11.5 and the whole world goes insane. Both sets dropped about the same.

 
The problem is that the reports have them 2 PSI below the allowed range.  Assume that's 10.5 PSI; you can't get there from 70F to 40F (which is probably bigger than the real temperature spread), and if you could then the Colts even at 13.5 would be down to 11.5 and also out of spec.  That's not what's being reported.
 
If it means 2 PSI below the 13PSI target (rather than the bottom of the range), then things get barely plausible.  Or if the Colts' balls weren't measured at halftime, but post-game (in a warm room).
 
We need the report.

 

[djbayko]

I heard a Rodgers audio clip this AM (maybe from yesterday) saying the refs routinely deflate his balls. He also said there should be no upper limit on PSI.

Rogers trying to argue that there should be a lower limit but no upper limit is complete bullshit. If overinflated balls made no difference, then Rogers shouldn't care. He clearly prefers overinflated balls; hence, there is a difference.

I mean, I understand why he would try to explain away his comments. Who wants to get caught in front of this train barreling towards the Pats?

 

[RIrooter09]

Here's a question that no one seems to be asking: why does the NFL have the rule set at 12.5-13.5? Did they do some research and determine this is where a football should be for some legitimate reason or did they just inflate a few balls, pick a couple, measure them, and wing the range for the sake of some sort of consistency when they wrote the rule? Because it makes no sense why they choose the numbers they did since a ball over or under-inflated relative to the guidelines seems very useable.

 
For some reference, FIFA balls are required to be inflated between 8.5 and 15.6 PSI. 

 

[RedOctober3829]

HOW HAS THE INTERNET NOT LOCATED THE BALLBOY?
 
I mean, he lives in NE--no one knows him and has outed his facebook and twitter accounts yet?

There's multiple ball people.  Takes time.

 

[EvilEmpire]

I heard a Rodgers audio clip this AM (maybe from yesterday) saying the refs routinely deflate his balls. He also said there should be no upper limit on PSI.

I heard Rodgers this morning on Mike and Mike -- he made it sound like he likes the balls to be at the high end of the allowed spectrum and doesn't like it when the refs take air out to put the balls down into the lower end of the range. I wasn't listening that closely though. Maybe someone else around here heard him better.

 

[Hagios]

 
Believe me, any Jets fan would take 10x the number of quasi-scandals and hatred to just experience having the Jets GO to the Super Bowl....46 years and counting since last one (and I wasn't alive for that).

 
Yup. Redskins fan here and I'd take it too.
 
I think the Pats fans need to realize that like it or not, they're the bad guys. It's a switch because the world still thinks of the Red Sox as plucky underdogs. The more you argue, the more set in their ways people are. It's like debates over vaccination in Facebook. Arguing just helps each side harden in their opposition. Embracing it lightheartedly deflects the image a bit. It's ok to be the bad guy, at least for things like spygate and deflategate. The WWE would be boring without bad guys. 

 

[Was (Not Wasdin)]

What I haven't heard yet is the NFL saying "The referees tested each and every ball with a pressure gauge before the game, and they all met league standards, so whatever happened happened post-test."  If this were the case, I think the NFL would have put it our there front and center, to make it clear that their employees (the refs) had nothing to do with it.  The balls "must be made available for testing".   So maybe the Patriots equipment person prepares the balls as best he can "the way Brady likes them", maybe not paying any attention to air pressure, but rather the feel of the ball.  And cue the chorus of "EVERYONE DOES IT THIS WAY"  If they are not up to snuff, it doesnt matter, the refs will fix it if there is a problem.  But the refs give the ball the classic "veteran review", check a few by feel and they feel ok, so they sign off on them.  Now the underinflated balls are in play.  
 
The refs come out looking pretty bad here.  The Pats say simply "we prepped them as we always do, didnt check for pressure, assumed the refs would do that" and move on. 
 
This bothers me, because I think it will be very hard for the guys reffing the Super Bowl not to have in the back of their minds how the Patriots embarrassed their colleagues, made all the refs look bad, how the Pats games are the hardest to work because of all of the BS, etc. etc.  It is only human nature.  And the flag on the borderline holding call when Seattle is on offense stays in the pocket, while the contact by Browner on a Seattle WR 5.1 yards off the line of scrimmage draws a flag.  Nothing blatant, not Oakland in 1976 bad, just a few close judgement calls that don't go the Pats way.  And those could make all the difference against an opponent like Seattle.  This is what concerns me most about the whole affair.  I hope that whatever the Patriots do, they don't hang the refs out to dry by trying to look like the smartest guys in the room.  I think it will hurt them.
 
Everyone is looking at Brady, because he said he likes the ball a little softer three years ago, but would a softer ball be a bigger benefit in the running game?  Easier to secure on a wet field?  

 

[wiffleballhero]

As a tennis player, I wonder if this whole story -- and the physics nerd discussion here -- is a little off. 
 
Forget about the weather, the rain and the temperature.
 
Balls bladders are not stable.
 
A tennis ball that is played with (no seams on the bladder either) looses air pressure pretty fast. A tennis ball that is simply taken from the can also looses pressure with time, but simply playing with the balls will make them loose pressure really almost immediately. There is a reason the pros change out balls every seven to nine games in a match.
 
Blount getting tackled with the balls would seem to obviously make a difference, especially if the balls were at the bottom of the spectrum to start.
 
Luck sitting his ass on the bench between 3 and outs would probably stress the PSI less.
 
Having the initial test 2:15 before the start of the game (2:25 in this case because of the delay for the NFC) would matter too.
 
A tennis racquet is strung between, say, 30 (let's not turn this into a discussion of Poly strings) and 70 pounds. The tennis balls are at, apparently 13.7 PSI above sea level air pressure.
 
Now a tennis ball has a lot less surface area and flex in it to start leaking air and a 140z tennis racquet is not quite the same as a 300lb. lineman. None the less, any hack tennis player can tell the difference in pressure between fresh balls and balls that are two hours and two sets old.
 
This is all to say, I blame the asskickery of the running game.

 

[DJnVa]

 
Jeff Passan ‏@JeffPassan  1m1 minute ago
From sound of it, DeflateGate is a lot like pitchers using sunscreen to get a better grip on balls. Everyone does it. No one really cares.
 

 
Well, it certainly *seems* like a lot of people care.
 

 

[Leather]

 
As a Jets fan living in CT, the only reason that I'm paying any attention to this is because I find it extremely amusing how people, especially Pats fans, are getting worked up over this.  Why do you guys care?  The Pats are going to the Super Bowl....again!  Are fans so bored with going to and winning the Super Bowl?  Now, it has to be going to and winning the Super Bowl without any "controversies"?
 
Believe me, any Jets fan would take 10x the number of quasi-scandals and hatred to just experience having the Jets GO to the Super Bowl....46 years and counting since last one (and I wasn't alive for that).

 
Honestly?  Because, given the utter inability of Goodell to not fuck up everything he touches, and because he loves to "drop the hammer", and because he needs to atone for his mishandling of Ray Rice, it is not 100% out of the realm of possibility that the bolded is uncertain.

 

[SumnerH]

There's multiple ball people.  Takes time.

 
 
There's only one that matters.

 

[DJnVa]

What I haven't heard yet is the NFL saying "

 
Because the NFL hasn't said anything yet.

 

[Lose Remerswaal]

From a horse's mouth

 

[Zupcic Fan]

I should state up front that I'm not a football fan and couldn't care less who wins any of these games unless I have a bet on the game.  But if I were a Patriots fan, I would find this whole thing a little embarrassing and pretty annoying.  I mean here's this truly great team that has done amazing things for so long, and the only thing I ever read about them in the idiotic New York tabloids is about Spygate and now this thing, all over the airwaves and the newspapers.  Bellicheat this, Bellicheat that etc etc etc. It allows people who hate the Patriots to completely dismiss their accomplishments and to force Patriot fans to make all kinds of statements minimizing these things.  I think I'd be annoyed at whoever on the Patriots thought this kind of trivial stuff was worth it.
 
But I'm glad that a lot of you aren't that upset by this.  It reminds me of the old days when the Yankees were winning it all every year, and so many Yankee haters dismissed every great thing they accomplished with a quick " Well of course they win. Look how much money they spend"  If I were a Yankee fan, I would have laughed that off easily as I attended the parade every year, and I'm glad to see Patriot fans and Brady and others laughing this kind of stuff off in the same way.   
 
But it would still annoy me, I think.

 

[Shelterdog]

 
Honestly?  Because, given the utter inability of Goodell to not fuck up everything he touches, and because he loves to "drop the hammer", and because he needs to atone for his mishandling of Ray Rice, it is not 100% out of the realm of possibility that the bolded is uncertain.

 
There is no fucking way the Pats are banned from the superbowl.  They would ban BB for life and take away 15 first round picks before they changed the result of a finished game.

 

[Corsi]

https://twitter.com/StoolMilmore/status/557926077461692417

 

[bohous]

Are the ball"boys" really boys, here?  A billion dollar organization can't afford grown-ass men (or women) to handle something apparently so sacred to the integrity of the game?
 
Either you have appropriately compensated league officials in charge of the balls from start to finish, or you concede that you don't give a shit about ball pressure and that all of this is a complete farce.

 
If somebody wants to dig through their DVR of the game I actually recall there being a shot of the ballboy. There was a shot where it looked like they were swapping out for a dry ball from his bag and I was thinking "that kid looks cold, wet and miserable". 

 

[Ed Hillel]

 
There is no fucking way the Pats are banned from the superbowl.  They would ban BB for life and take away 15 first round picks before they changed the result of a finished game.

Particularly one decided by 38 points and favored the winning team 28-0 after the balls were switched.

I wonder what would happen here if Brady takes the fall. I actually think Goodell goes over the top, though, given his prior track record and how this season has played out. Maybe two first rounders and a significant suspension for Belichick. Decent chance this is Belichick's last game I think, as he'd probably retire.

 

[Return of the Dewey]

 
Honestly?  Because, given the utter inability of Goodell to not fuck up everything he touches, and because he loves to "drop the hammer", and because he needs to atone for his mishandling of Ray Rice, it is not 100% out of the realm of possibility that the bolded is uncertain.

 
Yes, honestly.  I don't think there's any way that Pats are not going to the Super Bowl this year.  Now, if it was the Jets, it'll be a 50/50 shot as to whether or not they'd be going....just because, if it would happen to ANY team, it would happen to the Jets.

 

[pedroia'sboys]

 
There is no fucking way the Pats are banned from the superbowl.  They would ban BB for life and take away 15 first round picks before they changed the result of a finished game.

And if that happened what would winning the Super Bowl mean? It would mean jack shit, and we lose an icon. I'm so annoyed at all this bullshit, if the NFL doesn't come out with something today it's an epic failure. If BB turns into Pete Rose because of this and retires, I don't give a crap about the Super Bowl

 

[RedOctober3829]

Report: Gillette Stadium officials turned the lights up so that Josh Cribbs would drop the punt.
 
Bob Kravitz first reported.

 

[LeoCarrillo]

 
There is no fucking way the Pats are banned from the superbowl.  They would ban BB for life and take away 15 first round picks before they changed the result of a finished game.

 
Imagine the consequences in Vegas. No way a DQ is a possibility.

 

[Doctor G]

Then provide your own math that disputes the math already posted.

Edit: Yes, not a full 2 psi, but very close. Was someone rounding when they claimed 2? Are other factors at play? All I'm saying is that the weather could have a significant effect.

the fact that there was wind and soaking rain also affects the surface temperature of the ball. Anyone been in the ocean when the water temperature is 42degrees.

 

[NortheasternPJ]

 
If somebody wants to dig through their DVR of the game I actually recall there being a shot of the ballboy. There was a shot where it looked like they were swapping out for a dry ball from his bag and I was thinking "that kid looks cold, wet and miserable". 

 
It's during the 3rd quarter start.

 

[OnWisc]

 
Honestly?  Because, given the utter inability of Goodell to not fuck up everything he touches, and because he loves to "drop the hammer", and because he needs to atone for his mishandling of Ray Rice, it is not 100% out of the realm of possibility that the bolded is uncertain.

Yes it is. They've already finalized the Pro Bowl rosters, which include I believe 7 Colts. You think the league is really going to tell the coaches "Hey, sorry, but those 7 guys are now unavailable as they're going to the Super Bowl?" So basically they have to trash their game plans and start all over sometime Wednesday (or later)? I don't think so.

 

[fairlee76]

The balls were "under weight". But, as far as I can tell- no one has yet reported that they dropped by 2 PSI from the pre-game check. There's a distinct possibility they weren't weighed properly before hand, isn't there? That's kind of the entire issue.

I'm going based on Gerry Austin's statement that it was his "understanding" that at least one ball was more than 2 PSI lower at half than at the pre-game check.  But, again, who knows how accurate this is?  And I thought the pre-game check involved an actual pressure check rather than weighing?

 

[EpsteinsGorillaSuit]

This thread is a horrorshow of speculation and rationalization and I'm not going back to see if anyone has thrown out any actual math in it.
 
I'm a chemist. The effect of temperature on the pressure of a football is easy to figure out assuming the ideal gas law, which should be accurate enough for this problem. PV = nRT, where P is pressure, V is volume, n is the number of gas molecules (should not change in absence of deflation), R is the ideal gas constant, and T is temperature (in Kelvin, not Fahrenheit).
 
This equation shows that a ball inflated/tested at 70 degrees F (294 K) and then tested again after coming to temperature at 40 degrees (278 K, colder than game temp) would measure 94% (278/294) of the original pressure. An unadultered ball inflated to 13 PSI at 70 degrees would read 12.2 PSI at 40 degrees or 12.5 PSI at 50 degrees. 
 
You would have to cool the ball down to -10 F for it to reach 11 PSI, two pounds below its original pressure.

 

[SumnerH]

As a tennis player, I wonder if this whole story -- and the physics nerd discussion here -- is a little off. 
 
Forget about the weather, the rain and the temperature.
 
Balls bladders are not stable.
 
A tennis ball that is played with (no seams on the bladder either) looses air pressure pretty fast. A tennis ball that is simply taken from the can also looses pressure with time, but simply playing with the balls will make them loose pressure really almost immediately. There is a reason the pros change out balls every seven to nine games in a match.

 
Tennis balls have a porous rubber pressurized core.  It starts losing pressure as soon as it's removed from the can.
 
Footballs are built differently.  They have a rubber (sometimes polyurethane) bladder inside that holds the air and is comparatively non-porous.  They can leak a little over time, but not at all like tennis balls (unless they're damaged in some way).

 

[pappymojo]

 
They should all be affected pretty much identically by the temperature (it's not highly variable), unless one was at the end near a heater or something.  But the Colts' balls should be affected exactly the same.  Even if the Colts like theirs at 13.5 and the Pats like theirs at 12.5 then there's something going on beyond the temperature if the leaked info so far is accurate.

 
This assumes that the Colts balls were not overinflated to start (which is exactly what has been attributed to Aaron Rodgers).  Further this assumes that the game play and usage of the balls does not impact the loss of pressure (as the Patriots ran more plays and their balls saw more usage than the Colts balls).  

 

[B H Kim]

Yes it is. They've already finalized the Pro Bowl rosters, which include I believe 7 Colts. You think the league is really going to tell the coaches "Hey, sorry, but those 7 guys are now unavailable as they're going to the Super Bowl?" So basically they have to trash their game plans and start all over sometime Wednesday (or later)? I don't think so.

 
There are a million reasons why they won't change the AFC Championship game results.  Fucking up the Pro Bowl is probably somewhere around 995,000 on that list.