#DFG: Canceling the Noise

Is there any level of suspension that you would advise Tom to accept?


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DJnVa

Dorito Dawg
SoSH Member
Dec 16, 2010
42,796
PhilPlantier said:
 
Note: The date and time stamps are from the Wells Report (p. 77).  I'm assuming he at least got those right, though I could be giving him too much credit.
 
10/17/14 09:05:45 EDT  McNally: Tom sucks…im going make that next ball a fuckin balloon
10/17/14 09:07:08 EDT  Jastremski: Talked to him last night. He actually brought you up and said you must have a lot of stress trying to get them done…
10/17/14 09:07:37 EDT  Jastremski: I told him it was. He was right though…
10/17/14 09:08:08 EDT  Jastremski: I checked some of the balls this morn… The refs fucked us…a few of then were at almost 16
 
If you believe the Pats rebuttal, then Jastremski ignored McNally's text about Tom (presumably Brady), and instead responded by talking about his fraud investigator friend.  He didn't give any indication to McNally that he was switching to a conversation about tickets, or that the "him" referred to anyone other than Tom.
 
By itself, I don't think that's especially significant.  But he followed up with a text 29 seconds later that appears to refer, in a single line, to both the preceding statement about stress and McNally's opening statement about ball pressure.  I don't think the fact that people often flit back and forth between subjects explains: (1) the use of a pronoun before any subject has been introduced (how the hell was McNally supposed to know who "him" was, if not Tom); (2) the timing (this conversation took place within a span of a couple minutes); and (3) Jastremski's statement that "he was right" on the same line in which he is purportedly referring to the stress of selling tickets.
 
Perhaps, before the first McNally text listed, Jastremski had another text about "him" that's not listed. McNally, who seems like a bit of an a-hole, doesn't respond to it but barrels ahead with whatever he wants. Without the context of what was BEFORE the first text listed, you can't tell whose text looks "off". It could be McNally's. Then Jastremski, seeing McNally talking about Tom, responds to that.
 
Brady also told Wells that he never said anything about McNally being stressed.
 
 

dynomite

Member
SoSH Member
AB in DC said:
I believe they had a veteran back-up in Charlie Batch.  (Or was it Byron Leftwich? )
They started the year with the immortal Dennis Dixon, then he got hurt and Batxh came in.
 
AB in DC said:
Either way, the Pats should probably sign a veteran to back-up Garopollo, or take over in case Garopollo isn't ready.  I still think the suspension will be reduced, if not elmiinated upon appeal, but better to sign a veteran now and give them time to gel with the system during training camp. 
We're talking about this in the other thread, but that veteran QB doesn't really exist.

But I can see why you aren't comfortable with Gilbert as the only backup QB. I mean, he was a 6th round selection last season who struggled to start in college. When has a guy like that ever worked out?

Note: I'm kidding, I just think the free agent options are kind of crappy, and I trust Belichick's instincts. He thought enough of Gilbert to bring him in and stick with him, so if he decides to go into the 0-4 game suspension with just Garoppolo and Gilbert instead of adding, say, Jason Campbell, I won't have a problem with that.
 

E5 Yaz

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JimBoSox9 said:
 
News cycles don't get set in cement in a couple hours, whatever folks like to say about how the internetz have changed things.  Just like with the Report itself, the more nuanced analysis will start to trickle out tonight and tomorrow (as the more responsible folks actually peruse and absorb it rather than running to nearest ESPN set).  The Deflator nickname bit is getting the early run because it's the lowest-hanging fruit.
 
I don't disagree in the slightest. But so much of public opinion is driven by the low-hanging fruit.
 

Leather

given himself a skunk spot
SoSH Member
Jul 18, 2005
26,589
Comfortably Lomb said:
An aside: I think it's amazing that anyone in this day and age would ever put anything in an email, text, or other documentable electronic communication that is an any way related to something they shouldn't be doing.
 
Dude, employment discrimination attorneys wonder this every day, and then hope it never stops.
 

DJnVa

Dorito Dawg
SoSH Member
Dec 16, 2010
42,796
Jettisoned said:
 
I don't know, I'd like to see a few more preceding texts.  It could be that the whole text is referring to someone other than Brady, and then he switches to talking about Brady in the next one.
 
Exactly. Without the preceding texts, McNally could be the one whose text isn't staying "on track".
 
 

Ed Hillel

Wants to be startin somethin
SoSH Member
Dec 12, 2007
26,640
Here
Is the media really going to run through the report without anyone latching on to the Colts/Jaguars thing? That seems super juicy. Then again, it would require a full reading, and Freeman started with the weight loss thing and has given everyone something to latch on to without having to put forth much effort.
 

RIFan

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Jul 19, 2005
2,374
Rhode Island
I would hope that the Pats called up some of their other staff and asked them if JM used deflator as his term for losing weight. If they don't have some type of corroboration and rely only on those two for the "meaning" it could blow up on them in a very bad way. They better have more than what is in that report.
 

swingin val

lurker
Jul 15, 2005
1,162
Minneapolis
Comfortably Lomb said:
An aside: I think it's amazing that anyone in this day and age would ever put anything in an email, text, or other documentable electronic communication that is an any way related to something they shouldn't be doing.
Sounds like you have some boring text conversations with your friends :)
 

ivanvamp

captain obvious
Jul 18, 2005
6,104
Here's what happened.
 
Brady is anal about the football.  He knows JJ but only knows McNally tangentially, by a nickname, "Burt" (he doesn't even know him well enough to know that his nickname is "Bird", not "Burt").  McN and JJ make sure the balls are prepared as Brady likes, because if they don't, he can be a real pain in the ass about it.  It's his livelihood, after all.  So they bust his balls behind his back, like most employees do to their bosses.
 
The league, however, is NOT anal about the footballs.  They just don't care.  When the Chargers illegally put stickum on the balls, they get fined $20k, but not for tampering with the footballs - rather, for not cooperating with the investigation.  When the Panthers and Vikings tamper with the balls during a game, all they get is a warning.  There is no real tight procedure or chain of custody vis-a-vis the footballs.  They don't record measurements.  Everything is completely inexact.  Mostly because, in the entire history of the NFL, nobody has ever cared about it that much.  Nobody even thinks that the regulations will be in jeopardy on really cold days when the laws of physics force footballs under the legal psi.  None of the refs ever have even heard of the Ideal Gas Law or consider its impact on footballs.  Nobody cares ever.
 
One day the Pats get footballs back from the refs and the footballs are at 16psi.  Brady can't feel the difference of 0.3 psi, but he sure can tell when a ball that he wants at 12.5 is 3.5 psi higher than that.  Either the refs deliberately over inflate the balls, which would open up a whole other can of worms, or they just do the "inflate, squeeze, put them in the bag" routine.  No precision.  Again, because nobody cares.
 
Except that's too much imprecision and Brady lets the ball guys have it.  Come on guys, how can you let me play with footballs like that?  Smarten up.  12.5!!  He is crystal clear about 12.5.
 
Fast forward to the AFC Divisional game.  The Pats come back and beat the Ravens.  Harbaugh is embarrassed and pissed especially because of the formation stuff (which was perfectly legal).  Brady says afterward that he should know the rulebook better.  This further embarrasses and pisses Harbaugh off.  So he tips off the Colts to the idea that the Pats screw with the footballs.  The Colts alert the NFL, which is filled with people like Kensil who hate the Pats.  
 
That information is passed on to Anderson, and they make sure to check the balls before the game.  But, because nobody cares about it, all he does is a very imprecise check using the logo gauge, and doesn't record them.  Which, if he was part of a "sting", he sure would have been more precise.  But he's the ref.  He was told to make sure to measure the balls, so he does.  Then McN gets the balls and waits for the NFC title game to finish.  It does.  He gets up, walks past dozens of NFL officials with the bag of balls, without anyone saying anything.  Why?  Because they don't frigging care.  If anyone does care, they sure aren't showing it.
 
He stops in the restroom to go to the bathroom because the NFC title game took extra long and he has to go.  He's in there long enough to take a leak.  He brings the balls in there because they're his responsibility and he doesn't want to let them out of his sight.  He then travels to the spot on the field where he's supposed to be.
 
Anderson, meanwhile, shows up on the field and finds McN right where he's supposed to be.  Doesn't chew him out.  Nothing.  Just…normal.  If Anderson is so distraught at losing track of Anderson, and what that might mean for the integrity of the game, all he has to do is replace McN's footballs with the backup balls and have the Pats' balls checked and (if necessary) re-inflated.  He doesn't do any of this.  Why?  Because it's totally insignificant.
 
The game begins and then Jackson intercepts Brady.  The ball is brought to the Colts' sideline.  One of the Colts' people, trying to catch the Pats in this scheme, tests the ball, in violation of NFL rules (he shouldn't be tampering with the ball at all).  Lo and behold, thanks to the Ideal Gas Law, it's under 12.5.  He alerts Kensil.  Halftime comes.  Kensil tells the Pats' ball guys that they're F**ed, because their footballs are under inflated.
 
The balls are brought in at halftime and Anderson and company measure them again.  Again, very little precision, and nothing recorded to compare them to.  They switch gauges and it's just silly.  But they record the Pats' footballs and then just do 4 Colts' balls.  Almost all of the Pats' footballs and 3 of the 4 Colts' footballs are under the legal psi.  The Pats', moreso, so it looks bad (and this is where people get the "If it's science, why didn't the Colts' footballs deflate too" - not knowing that the Colts' footballs started off at a higher psi to begin with).  They have plenty of time to do all the Colts' balls, but they don't.  Why?  Who knows.  The Pats' balls are reinflated but the Colts' are not, which means that the Colts played the entire second half with even more deflated footballs.  
 
They start the inquisition immediately after the game by talking to McN.  The next morning Brady goes on D&C and they spring this news on him and he is like, "Wow, now I've heard it all."  Immediately after that interview he calls JJ and is like WTF is going on?  That leads to several more calls and texts over the next few days as Brady checks in to see how he's doing.  After all, this is craziness.
 
Meanwhile, someone from the NFL office leaks to Mortensen that 11 of the 12 Pats' balls were at least 2 psi under the limit, suggesting something outside of a scientific explanation.  This is something nefarious.  Immediately that report spreads like wildfire and the narrative is created - the Pats were deflating footballs to gain a competitive advantage.  This despite the fact that Brady played much better in the second half with legally inflated footballs.  
 
The narrative is set.  The NFL, knowing the actual measurements (and that Mortensen's report is wrong), and knowing that they are explained by science, have a chance to correct the Mort tweet and bring this story to a place of neutrality.  They don't.  They let this narrative play out.  One short statement from the NFL saying that Mortensen is wrong, and here are the measurements (of the Pats' and Colts' balls), would have been sufficient to at least bring the story back to a neutral place. But no.  They let it play out and the integrity of Belichick, the Patriots, and most importantly, Tom Brady, is put into question.  I say most importantly Brady because BB and the Pats have long been considered "cheaters" due to Spygate, but Brady has never had his integrity questioned ever.  He is, in many ways, the face of the NFL.  
 
In the 2 weeks leading up to the Super Bowl, the Patriots are left twisting in the wind as the NFL allows this narrative, based on an erroneous tweet by Mortensen that the NFL *KNOWS IS WRONG*, to fester.  
 
As public pressure builds on the Patriots and on the league to get them, they happily comply.  Wells is brought in.  An "independent" investigation begins - and it's anything but "independent".  The Pats cooperate.  Brady cooperates.  Science experiments back the Patriots' explanation.  Wells hires a firm that argued that smoking doesn't contribute to lung cancer to be their science experts.  As Wells publishes his report, he leaves out anything that supports the Patriots, or is even neutral.  He includes everything that even hints of Patriots' wrongdoing.  He makes assumptions and derives conclusions from those assumptions.  
 
His conclusion, even after all that, is not that the Patriots definitely did something wrong.  BB, Kraft, and the organization are exonerated.  McN and JJ are thought "more probably than not" to have deflated footballs.  Brady is concluded to "more probably than not" have had "general awareness" of McN and JJ's actions.  This is the strongest claim of guilt that Wells can muster, after 100+ days and 243 pages worth of work.
 
The report is passed on to Goodell and Vincent.  The Patriots are not spoken with before hand to give them an opportunity to respond.  Goodell and Vincent put their finger in the air to test the winds, and the winds are overwhelmingly against the Patriots.
 
They then levy an unbelievably harsh penalty.  Four games (and $2 million) for Brady, $1 million for the team, and a first and fourth round draft picks.  This despite the fact that the original "crime" warrants a $25k penalty per the NFL rulebook.  They are cited for not cooperating (which turns out to not be true), and for prior transgressions (Spygate).  This despite the fact that other teams are multiple time rule breakers (the Jets, with three violations since 2010, and no extra penalties levied on them) do not receive the same treatment.  The punishment for the "crime" of not cooperating is completely out of step with similar infractions (the Chargers received a $20k fine for not cooperating; Brett Favre in 2010 was fined $50k for not cooperating).
 
So the penalty fits neither the original "crime" ($25k), the lack of cooperation (see Favre and SD), nor the idea of multiple-time offenders (see the Jets).  And the penalty is all based on something that is easily explained by science, or at most, is hardly demonstrated by the known facts.
 
How did this all happen?  It seems clear that someone was out to get the Patriots.  Harbaugh had motive - he was embarrassed by them and they are his primary competition in the AFC).  The Colts had motive (rivals).  Kensil had motive (former Jets guy, hates the Patriots).  So many key players involved in this drama had motive to see the Pats take a big hit.  And so they initiated this narrative and let it play out when they could have stopped it right in its tracks, and then they commissioned a one-sided report that ignored all the information that would have put the Patriots even in a neutral, let alone positive, light, and instead only presented any evidence (along with their accompanying commentary) that put the Patriots in a negative light.
 
In other words, this whole thing could have been prevented from the very beginning.  But the NFL let it go and let it grow and let it fester and let it explode.  What was originally something NOBODY cared about EVER in the history of the NFL became one of the biggest scandals in the sport's history.  And, as it turns out, it's all the NFL's fault.
 

jimbobim

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Jul 14, 2012
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Ed Hillel said:
Is the media really going to run through the report without anyone latching on to the Colts/Jaguars thing? That seems super juicy. Then again, it would require a full reading, and Freeman started with the weight loss thing and given everyone something to latch on to without having to.
I wonder what year the colts jags thing would lead to ... perhaps the other half of Manning / Brady  QB legends ? No ones going after the aging Payton Manning about his years with the Colts. Zero chance. 
 

Doctor G

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Jan 24, 2007
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E5 Yaz said:
The "deflate as weight loss" stupidity will be latched on by media as a reason to disregard the entire rebuttal. Already hearing it on ESP
  It might be thrown out there cause they knew it would be attacked  like an attractive fishing lure. if they have statements from other non patriots related friends of McNally's  confirming that he called himself this in the context of weight control, it renders any attack on this rebuttal solely on this  issue  superficial and  not well thought out, sort of like the Wells Report.
 

djbayko

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Jul 18, 2005
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dcmissle said:
That is a bullshit point which only demonstrates that either the lawyer is cynical or has no experience practicing law.

There are many iterations of these documents. It is not at all unusual to have them dated and issued at the same time.

Good Christ they are reaching.
I don't know. I hear what you're saying. On the other hand, shouldn't the Exponent report, which is supposed to be independent from the independent Wells report, be published a bit earlier and Wells' conclusions based on that? I think the inference here is that the documents published on the same day implies some sort of back-and-forth collaboration, as they try to get their facts and conclusions aligned. This is similar to the knock I have on the "independent" Wells report - there are NFL fingerprints all over it.
 

aksoxfan

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Jul 15, 2005
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ivanvamp said:
Here's what happened.
 
Brady is anal about the football.  He knows JJ but only knows McNally tangentially, by a nickname, "Burt" (he doesn't even know him well enough to know that his nickname is "Bird", not "Burt").  McN and JJ make sure the balls are prepared as Brady likes, because if they don't, he can be a real pain in the ass about it.  It's his livelihood, after all.  So they bust his balls behind his back, like most employees do to their bosses.
 
The league, however, is NOT anal about the footballs.  They just don't care.  When the Chargers illegally put stickum on the balls, they get fined $20k, but not for tampering with the footballs - rather, for not cooperating with the investigation.  When the Panthers and Vikings tamper with the balls during a game, all they get is a warning.  There is no real tight procedure or chain of custody vis-a-vis the footballs.  They don't record measurements.  Everything is completely inexact.  Mostly because, in the entire history of the NFL, nobody has ever cared about it that much.  Nobody even thinks that the regulations will be in jeopardy on really cold days when the laws of physics force footballs under the legal psi.  None of the refs ever have even heard of the Ideal Gas Law or consider its impact on footballs.  Nobody cares ever.
 
One day the Pats get footballs back from the refs and the footballs are at 16psi.  Brady can't feel the difference of 0.3 psi, but he sure can tell when a ball that he wants at 12.5 is 3.5 psi higher than that.  Either the refs deliberately over inflate the balls, which would open up a whole other can of worms, or they just do the "inflate, squeeze, put them in the bag" routine.  No precision.  Again, because nobody cares.
 
Except that's too much imprecision and Brady lets the ball guys have it.  Come on guys, how can you let me play with footballs like that?  Smarten up.  12.5!!  He is crystal clear about 12.5.
 
Fast forward to the AFC Divisional game.  The Pats come back and beat the Ravens.  Harbaugh is embarrassed and pissed especially because of the formation stuff (which was perfectly legal).  Brady says afterward that he should know the rulebook better.  This further embarrasses and pisses Harbaugh off.  So he tips off the Colts to the idea that the Pats screw with the footballs.  The Colts alert the NFL, which is filled with people like Kensil who hate the Pats.  
 
That information is passed on to Anderson, and they make sure to check the balls before the game.  But, because nobody cares about it, all he does is a very imprecise check using the logo gauge, and doesn't record them.  Which, if he was part of a "sting", he sure would have been more precise.  But he's the ref.  He was told to make sure to measure the balls, so he does.  Then McN gets the balls and waits for the NFC title game to finish.  It does.  He gets up, walks past dozens of NFL officials with the bag of balls, without anyone saying anything.  Why?  Because they don't frigging care.  If anyone does care, they sure aren't showing it.
 
He stops in the restroom to go to the bathroom because the NFC title game took extra long and he has to go.  He's in there long enough to take a leak.  He brings the balls in there because they're his responsibility and he doesn't want to let them out of his sight.  He then travels to the spot on the field where he's supposed to be.
 
Anderson, meanwhile, shows up on the field and finds McN right where he's supposed to be.  Doesn't chew him out.  Nothing.  Just…normal.  If Anderson is so distraught at losing track of Anderson, and what that might mean for the integrity of the game, all he has to do is replace McN's footballs with the backup balls and have the Pats' balls checked and (if necessary) re-inflated.  He doesn't do any of this.  Why?  Because it's totally insignificant.
 
The game begins and then Jackson intercepts Brady.  The ball is brought to the Colts' sideline.  One of the Colts' people, trying to catch the Pats in this scheme, tests the ball, in violation of NFL rules (he shouldn't be tampering with the ball at all).  Lo and behold, thanks to the Ideal Gas Law, it's under 12.5.  He alerts Kensil.  Halftime comes.  Kensil tells the Pats' ball guys that they're F**ed, because their footballs are under inflated.
 
The balls are brought in at halftime and Anderson and company measure them again.  Again, very little precision, and nothing recorded to compare them to.  They switch gauges and it's just silly.  But they record the Pats' footballs and then just do 4 Colts' balls.  Almost all of the Pats' footballs and 3 of the 4 Colts' footballs are under the legal psi.  The Pats', moreso, so it looks bad (and this is where people get the "If it's science, why didn't the Colts' footballs deflate too" - not knowing that the Colts' footballs started off at a higher psi to begin with).  They have plenty of time to do all the Colts' balls, but they don't.  Why?  Who knows.  The Pats' balls are reinflated but the Colts' are not, which means that the Colts played the entire second half with even more deflated footballs.  
 
They start the inquisition immediately after the game by talking to McN.  The next morning Brady goes on D&C and they spring this news on him and he is like, "Wow, now I've heard it all."  Immediately after that interview he calls JJ and is like WTF is going on?  That leads to several more calls and texts over the next few days as Brady checks in to see how he's doing.  After all, this is craziness.
 
Meanwhile, someone from the NFL office leaks to Mortensen that 11 of the 12 Pats' balls were at least 2 psi under the limit, suggesting something outside of a scientific explanation.  This is something nefarious.  Immediately that report spreads like wildfire and the narrative is created - the Pats were deflating footballs to gain a competitive advantage.  This despite the fact that Brady played much better in the second half with legally inflated footballs.  
 
The narrative is set.  The NFL, knowing the actual measurements (and that Mortensen's report is wrong), and knowing that they are explained by science, have a chance to correct the Mort tweet and bring this story to a place of neutrality.  They don't.  They let this narrative play out.  One short statement from the NFL saying that Mortensen is wrong, and here are the measurements (of the Pats' and Colts' balls), would have been sufficient to at least bring the story back to a neutral place. But no.  They let it play out and the integrity of Belichick, the Patriots, and most importantly, Tom Brady, is put into question.  I say most importantly Brady because BB and the Pats have long been considered "cheaters" due to Spygate, but Brady has never had his integrity questioned ever.  He is, in many ways, the face of the NFL.  
 
In the 2 weeks leading up to the Super Bowl, the Patriots are left twisting in the wind as the NFL allows this narrative, based on an erroneous tweet by Mortensen that the NFL *KNOWS IS WRONG*, to fester.  
 
As public pressure builds on the Patriots and on the league to get them, they happily comply.  Wells is brought in.  An "independent" investigation begins - and it's anything but "independent".  The Pats cooperate.  Brady cooperates.  Science experiments back the Patriots' explanation.  Wells hires a firm that argued that smoking doesn't contribute to lung cancer to be their science experts.  As Wells publishes his report, he leaves out anything that supports the Patriots, or is even neutral.  He includes everything that even hints of Patriots' wrongdoing.  He makes assumptions and derives conclusions from those assumptions.  
 
His conclusion, even after all that, is not that the Patriots definitely did something wrong.  BB, Kraft, and the organization are exonerated.  McN and JJ are thought "more probably than not" to have deflated footballs.  Brady is concluded to "more probably than not" have had "general awareness" of McN and JJ's actions.  This is the strongest claim of guilt that Wells can muster, after 100+ days and 243 pages worth of work.
 
The report is passed on to Goodell and Vincent.  The Patriots are not spoken with before hand to give them an opportunity to respond.  Goodell and Vincent put their finger in the air to test the winds, and the winds are overwhelmingly against the Patriots.
 
They then levy an unbelievably harsh penalty.  Four games (and $2 million) for Brady, $1 million for the team, and a first and fourth round draft picks.  This despite the fact that the original "crime" warrants a $25k penalty per the NFL rulebook.  They are cited for not cooperating (which turns out to not be true), and for prior transgressions (Spygate).  This despite the fact that other teams are multiple time rule breakers (the Jets, with three violations since 2010, and no extra penalties levied on them) do not receive the same treatment.  The punishment for the "crime" of not cooperating is completely out of step with similar infractions (the Chargers received a $20k fine for not cooperating; Brett Favre in 2010 was fined $50k for not cooperating).
 
So the penalty fits neither the original "crime" ($25k), the lack of cooperation (see Favre and SD), nor the idea of multiple-time offenders (see the Jets).  And the penalty is all based on something that is easily explained by science, or at most, is hardly demonstrated by the known facts.
 
How did this all happen?  It seems clear that someone was out to get the Patriots.  Harbaugh had motive - he was embarrassed by them and they are his primary competition in the AFC).  The Colts had motive (rivals).  Kensil had motive (former Jets guy, hates the Patriots).  So many key players involved in this drama had motive to see the Pats take a big hit.  And so they initiated this narrative and let it play out when they could have stopped it right in its tracks, and then they commissioned a one-sided report that ignored all the information that would have put the Patriots even in a neutral, let alone positive, light, and instead only presented any evidence (along with their accompanying commentary) that put the Patriots in a negative light.
 
In other words, this whole thing could have been prevented from the very beginning.  But the NFL let it go and let if grow and let it fester and let it explode.  What was originally something NOBODY cared about EVER in the history of the NFL became one of the biggest scandals in the sport's history.  And, as it turns out, it's all the NFL's fault.
 
GREAT post...this is the one I've been looking for. 
 
 

LuckyBen

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Jun 5, 2012
3,396
Revkeith said:
 
I don't think Miami got punished by the NFL at all after the Incognito thing, correct? Dolphins kicked Incognito off the team, but nothing from up top.
I think he's more referring to the hack work that Mr. Wells puts out. Wells obviously thought he was untouchable with this report.
 

dcmissle

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djbayko said:
I don't know. I hear what you're saying. On the other hand, shouldn't the Exponent report, which is supposed to be independent from the independent Wells report, be published a bit earlier and Wells' conclusions based on that? I think the inference here is that the documents published on the same day implies some sort of back-and-forth collaboration, as they try to get their facts and conclusions aligned. This is similar to the knock I have on the "independent" Wells report - there are NFL fingerprints all over it.
No, because they worked in tandem and tried to have the documents in the best shape they could by the end. The lawyers saw the Exponent drafts, critiqued them, sent them back for refinement while incorporating their findings while drafting the report. I do this all the time with experts. It's a natural process that results in better work. Just because this was purportedly an investigative piece rather than an advocacy piece does not diminish the value of that process.

If this is the best you got to show bias, go home. It's really stretching and fundamentally inaccurate.
 

PhilPlantier

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Oct 24, 2005
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DrewDawg said:
 
Perhaps, before the first McNally text listed, Jastremski had another text about "him" that's not listed. McNally, who seems like a bit of an a-hole, doesn't respond to it but barrels ahead with whatever he wants. Without the context of what was BEFORE the first text listed, you can't tell whose text looks "off". It could be McNally's.
 
Brady also told Wells that he never said anything about McNally being stressed.
 
As stated above, the Wells Report indicates that there were no other text or calls between McNally and Jastremski for 12 days (p. 77, n.49).  If there's an earlier text that provides context, it was either sent 12 days earlier or is missing.  Given how thoroughly and aggressively the Pats attorneys debunked the rest of the report, I'm confident that they would have published any earlier text that might have provided support for their theory.  Instead, they went with the general observation that "Mr. Jastremski frequently sent texts which did not relate to either a prior text that he sent or the prior text that he received — the investigators have extensive texts from him to various people on numerous subjects and this pattern was apparent."  That may be true, but it doesn't address the rapid succession of the texts or the fact that Jastremski's last two texts in the series don't make sense if we assume that he's switching topics between ticket sales and ball pressure.  If we assume he's talking only about ball pressure, they make sense.
 
Even if he's referring to Brady, I actually don't take much from Jastremski's statement that Brady "said you must have a lot of stress."  He could have been lying to defuse the tension -- trying to paint Brady as sympathetic and appreciative. 
 
I just think the lawyers should have left their explanation out of the rebuttal, because I think it will make some question their credibility even beyond the "deflator" explanation.  Of course, maybe it won't hurt them at all.  If this message board is any indication, then I'm in the minority in criticizing that particular part.
 
Edited: Grammar
 

Jettisoned

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When I first started lifting weights with a friend, the rest of our mutual friends and acquaintances starting ribbing us about being Hans and Franz and wearing inflatable muscle suits.  There were no references to "deflation" but I can see how that sort of statement could come about.  Maybe the explanation is kind of ridiculous but most inside jokes sound stupid when you're not in on them. 
 

djbayko

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BigSoxFan said:
Any chance Goodell throws Wells under the bus saying that he relied on the independent report that was subsequently disproven on several levels?
Possibly. But did NFL Executive VP Jeff Pash co-lead the investigation with Ted Wells or not??

Can't have your cake (influence the "independent" investifation) and eat it too (absolve yourself of any knowledge / wrongdoing).
 

glennhoffmania

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MuppetAsteriskTalk said:
 The fact is, there is one rulebook for the Pats and another for the rest of the teams.
 
I've stayed out of the Deflategate discussions for the most part, because as a non-Pats fan it seems almost pointless.  But can we at least stop with this complete horseshit?  New England is not some oppressed and unjustly persecuted victim that has struggled to survive despite unfair and systemic discrimination.

 
 

E5 Yaz

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glennhoffmania said:
 
I've stayed out of the Deflategate discussions for the most part, because as a non-Pats fan it seems almost pointless.  But can we at least stop with this complete horseshit?  New England is not some oppressed and unjustly persecuted victim that has struggled to survive despite unfair and systemic discrimination.
 
 
 

OCST

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Pats response tells us that the team is not going to pursue legal action. If they were they would not have wanted to lay out their arguemant
 
This is so stupad it makes my head hurt.
 

Jnai

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"The Deflator" thing is awful. Even if true, it's one of the dumbest possible soundbites.
 

DJnVa

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Stitch01 said:
Probably shouldn't have fired Frick and Frack today from a controlling the message perspective
 
 
 
Fucking Florio is swinging back the other way. Today he's talking about how they're defending the guys they fired.
 
Three days ago he posted this:
 
The league announced that neither can be reinstated without league executive vice president Troy Vincent’s approval, and spells out that: “If they are reinstated by the Patriots, Jastremski is prohibited from having any role in the preparation, supervision, or handling of footballs to be used in NFL games during the 2015 season. McNally is barred from serving as a locker room attendant for the game officials, or having any involvement with the preparation, supervision, or handling of footballs or any other equipment on game day.”
 
If the NFL was banning them from working games what the fuck were the Patriots going to do with them?
 

glennhoffmania

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Stitch01 said:
Probably not, but they were just handed a massive punishment for something where the precedent was a warning.
 
Look I think Goodell is a fucking moron and a total asshole.  If I was Brady or Kraft or a Pats fan I'd be furious.  But as Otis points out, there are reasonable explanations for the end result and it's not that the NFL has created a separate and more strict rule book that only applies to New England.
 

slamminsammya

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glennhoffmania said:
 
I've stayed out of the Deflategate discussions for the most part, because as a non-Pats fan it seems almost pointless.  But can we at least stop with this complete horseshit?  New England is not some oppressed and unjustly persecuted victim that has struggled to survive despite unfair and systemic discrimination.
 
I don't see how you can look at the penalty they received and not see it as unjust. Oppressed and persecuted is overboard, but they received a disproportionate penalty and I don't think it makes you a fanboy to believe that.
 

glennhoffmania

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slamminsammya said:
I don't see how you can look at the penalty they received and not see it as unjust. Oppressed and persecuted is overboard, but they received a disproportionate penalty and I don't think it makes you a fanboy to believe that.
 
Like I said, I'd be furious.  That's a far cry from claiming that there's a Patriot-specific rule book.  Lots of players and teams have been on the receiving end of unjust penalties.  This is hardly limited to New England.
 

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dcmissle said:
No, because they worked in tandem and tried to have the documents in the best shape they could by the end. The lawyers saw the Exponent drafts, critiqued them, sent them back for refinement while incorporating their findings while drafting the report. I do this all the time with experts. It's a natural process that results in better work. Just because this was purportedly an investigative piece rather than an advocacy piece does not diminish the value of that process.

If this is the best you got to show bias, go home. It's really stretching and fundamentally inaccurate.
Again, the one liner about "May 6" is missing a lot of context.  The entire quote:
 

Why is there no letter or written report from Dr. Marlow? Why are all of Exponent’s reports, relied on in the report issued May 6, dated May 6? How many draft Exponent reports were sent to the investigators for input and comment before the final May 6 reports? What comments were made on these drafts? How did drafts change over time? What notes are there of discussions with the consultants?
 

NavaHo

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I remember this image floating around the forum a couple of months ago. Other than the kicking ball issue being incorrectly intertwined with the PSI issue, this is pretty much dead on. Except that, where it says "didn't measure PSI, trust him," it should say "Measured PSI. Explainable by science. Leaked the wrong numbers and refused to let accurate numbers come out."
 
The NFL was MORE incompetent than even this picture would have them be. Remarkable.
 
 

Stitch01

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Well, its a combination of Goodell being a button mashing idiot and a contingent of the NFL office that was out to get the Pats.  This wouldn't have played out this way with a different team because the NFL office idiots wouldn't have started the media circus rolling.  Certainly not ROG's first dumb penalty though.
 

RSFnFL

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Regarding the "don't worry...not going to ESPN....yet" comment.
 
If you were going to rat an employee out for stealing shoes you would go to ESPN? Even joking, wouldn't you say.."not going to your boss....yet"?
 

dcmissle

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lexrageorge said:
Again, the one liner about "May 6" is missing a lot of context.  The entire quote:
 
If they want that stuff, try to get it in discovery, if there is discovery.

To suggest that something malicious can be attributed to this back-and-forth just ignores how professionals work. And although I would have like to see more in Wells' Report reflecting the Patriots' account of what happened, the implicit notion that these drafts should have been included as exhibits to the report is nonsense.
 

slamminsammya

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Sure its hyperbolic, but most of the other examples of injustice on the part of the league were isolated incidents. In the case of the Patriots, we have now had two distinct overblown controversies, with the league explicitly saying that Spygate contributed to the punishment in Ballghazi. Furthermore, I don't know how one can look at the reaction immediately following the outbreak of the ball pressure news and think other teams would have received the same amount of scrutiny on the part of the league. The Panthers had a similar infraction this year. That isn't some hometown victim complex, that really happened and no one in the NFL or the media cared. 
 

lexrageorge

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Stitch01 said:
Probably shouldn't have fired Frick and Frack today from a controlling the message perspective
If Kraft truly felt that the punishment was going to be a fine and mid-round draft pick (and worst case a 1-game vacation for Brady), he probably figured he was just going to accept the punishment and move on.  Suspending JJ and McNally would make sense, especially as the NFL was going to do it for them no matter what.  See Troy Vincent's press release if you disbelieve this last point.  
 

slamminsammya

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soxhop411 said:
The headline is overblown. He cites talking with two owners, and then mentions Jerry Jones' comments in support of Goodell. Evidence from three owners indicates his support is rising, somehow.
 

Morgan's Magic Snowplow

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Otis Foster said:
I think there was tampering with the balls. I think TB must have guessed it, even if he didn't actually know it.
 
I think the league never considered these to be major breaches of the rules. When Grigson first called, the reaction was: Just let the refs keep an eye on this. This may have been a desire to let BB fall into a trap, it may be because at that point, they didn't think this was that big a deal. I rather lean towards the latter.
 
When Grigson heard from Pagano during the game that the ball was soft (and I don't know in fact what triggered that), Grigson called Kensil - I believe - and basically said: We warned you guys, why didn't you do something about it. The NFL was now on the spot,
So Alexander and crew are sent down to measure the balls. Incredibly, despite the breaches in his own security measures before the game - the ball guy entering the field with the crew -, he made a botch of his testing. He had no base records, he didn't know which gauge was used on which balls, he never finished a comparable testing of the Colt balls. What he did find was that a number of Patriots balls were underinflated.
 
Then the leaks began. I don't know if they came from Kensil and the office, or the Colts.Probably the latter initially, witness Kravitz and Doyel. Now the NFL was in a bind. The last thing they wanted to do is to explain that they knew about the potential problem, underestimated the consequences, and  the Colts leaking the story so it became a big deal. The Colts in effect had the NFL by the sort hairs. They knew they'd warned the league in advance, and pretty well surmised that the league hadn't done much about it in advance.
 
The only other culprits of course were the NEP, Brady and BB.  They had to be whacked. This is so even though prior incidents, e.g. Carolina and the Vikings heating balls on the sideline, indicate the NFL never thought much about these issues. Now, Goodell has to treat this like a breach of a nuclear protocol, and he calls in Wells.
 
So here we are. The train of events turns this into a shitshow. Still, the bottom line is the offence isn't a big deal. That is, until TB and Kraft decide for whatever reason not to cooperate. We've been over those issues before.- there was apparently a way for TB to do the filtering so personal matters are removed or redacted. They said they'd take him at his word. TB refused.
 
Meanwhile, Kraft decides for some reason that he'll become McNally's shield. He resists Wells having a second bob at the apple. The prior interviews were conducted by the NFL. No experienced investigator would let it go at that. This was a perfectly logical request. Even if McNally confirmed the ball tampering, or TB's emails indicated he knew this, after all we're talking about a minor offense (maybe a bit more than minor with a repeat offender). The only other possibility was that McNally and TB's records would reveal something more far reaching- what, I don't know, but I'm beginning to think there is something nuclear there..
 
So now, through a combination of misjudgments and laxness by the NFL, TB and Kraft, they're in the middle of a real mess. I don't think it will end well, and I think the stonewalling gave the NFL a compelling reason for the heavy penalties, when cooperation probably would have resulted in something far less.
 
I'm not sure this really washes.  The NFL had already made it a big deal.  They leaked the erroneous report that the balls were >2 psi under regulations and did nothing to correct that misapprehension, they let the narrative build that this was an egregious assault on the integrity of the game, they let a media discussion continue all week in which a fair number of voices were calling for Belichick and/or Brady to be suspended for the Super Bowl.  By doing so, they (a) boxed the Patriots into a corner in that initial week in which the team was forced to respond very forcefully and (b) made it 100% obvious to the Patriots that this was going to be an antagonistic process in which they were unlikely to get a fair hearing and in which none of the Patriots complaints about league conduct would get any traction whatsoever.
 
Once we've arrived at that point, subsequent decisions by the Patriots to offer less than full cooperation weren't going to help matters but the league was likely going to hammer them no matter what given the evidence discussed by the Wells Report. 
 
I don't see any scenario where Tom Brady hands over his cell phone (assume it contains nothing of interest) and McNally does a second interview focuses on his "deflator" text (assume he makes the weight-loss claim) and the league lets the Patriots off with a slap on the wrist because they fully cooperated.  That just doesn't square with the rest of the evidence.
 

SeoulSoxFan

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DrewDawg said:
Fucking Florio is swinging back the other way. Today he's talking about how they're defending the guys they fired.
 
Three days ago he posted this:
 
If the NFL was banning them from working games what the fuck were the Patriots going to do with them?
 
Florio is the White Omar that deals in stolen clicks instead of stolen coke. An equal opportunist.
 

JokersWildJIMED

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dcmissle said:
If they want that stuff, try to get it in discovery, if there is discovery.

To suggest that something malicious can be attributed to this back-and-forth just ignores how professionals work. And although I would have like to see more in Wells' Report reflecting the Patriots' account of what happened, the implicit notion that these drafts should have been included as exhibits to the report is nonsense.
Perhaps the subtle point is that the science aspect should have been a foundation of the overall conclusion, which took supposedly months and a final Exponent report should have been concluded long before May 6th.  The report being dated on May 6th indicates many things, most benign, but does indicate that their were earlier versions that may have included discussion points and does make it appear that it was concluded near the end, after a conclusion was reached.  .  
 

lexrageorge

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dcmissle said:
If they want that stuff, try to get it in discovery, if there is discovery.

To suggest that something malicious can be attributed to this back-and-forth just ignores how professionals work. And although I would have like to see more in Wells' Report reflecting the Patriots' account of what happened, the implicit notion that these drafts should have been included as exhibits to the report is nonsense.
What's truly missing are the reasons for the release of these points by the Pats.  They could have stayed on point and focused the many areas where their argument was strongest and in some cases unassailable.  Instead, they attempted raise FUD among many of the points raised in the Wells report, some of them seemingly tangential to the defense's primary arguments.  I'd like to think there was a reason or strategy behind this.  Perhaps they figured that some number of their argument were going to get knocked down anyway, so Goldberg instead shoots for quantity instead of quality. But who really knows at this point?   
 

SeoulSoxFan

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slamminsammya said:
The headline is overblown. He cites talking with two owners, and then mentions Jerry Jones' comments in support of Goodell. Evidence from three owners indicates his support is rising, somehow.
 
Jason Cole is in perpetual competition with Charley Casserly on who can be more wrong on each and every NFL scoop.