#DFG: Canceling the Noise

Is there any level of suspension that you would advise Tom to accept?


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yecul

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The NFLPA screwed up the CBA negotiations and are now using Brady walk back that mistake. We'll see if this pays off or merely costs a high profile member $ and playing time. If they are orchestrating pieces of this (don't hand over phone, etc) then they have some skin in this one.
 
I doubt he hands it over regardless, but the point stands.

This will be an interesting one to watch. The problem the NFL has is that judges are smarter than Goodell. 
 

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Sportsbstn said:
For Brady to destroy his cell phone though just looks bad, flat out. During an investigation to get rid of the phone makes you look guilty. I sincerely hope Brady addresses the public and gives a better reason then he got a new phone
 
I don't think his reason will matter.  People are emotional about this topic.  Minds and hearts have been decided.  I can't think of an explanation he could give, no matter how reasonable it actually is, that would sway the "he broke it because he was guilty" crowd.  
 

Ed Hillel

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dcmissle said:
Sean Berry appearance ... Hmmm

I will say this. The phone issue could have been handled better. It almost certainly would have been handled better by Kessler. Too bad Tom did not bring him in earlier and relied on Yee instead
 
Speaking of Kessler, can you figure out why he'd have Brady go into any detail at all over this? Why not say that the NFLPA asked him not to turn it over and he honored that. Why mention any of this?
 

geoduck no quahog

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Imagine if somehow, some way, the NFL was able to oblige Brady to turn over the phone. It would be 60 seconds before TMZ had stuff that could sell ads. $10,000 buys a lot of cooperation.
 
On the other hand, there was no way the NFL could force Brady to turn the thing over. So wouldn't it have just been smarter to lock the phone away?
 
On the third hand, why would Brady and counsel offer up the information that the phone was destroyed if there was some fomr of "guilt" involved. they could have just said, "You will NEVER get your hands on that cellphone, assholes"
 
On the fourth hand, could that phone have ultimately been the subject of a court decision that obliged a hand-over?
 

Drocca

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Very cool. If you could do "In Memory of Arthur Klemmer & Hugh Flanagan", that would be cool.
 
On a lighter note, The Pats have been to 46 playoff games in their whole franchise history. Just in my lifetime (I'm 35), I've seen the Jets play in 22. Pretty sure I'll see 46 if I live to be 120.
This is perfect, because Chris' goal is to be the last living individual born in the seventies.

Nice touch on the "In Memory of..."
 

yecul

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Corsi said:
 
Scott Soshnick ‏@soshnick  6m6 minutes ago
BREAKING: @NFL asks federal court to confirm Tom Brady suspension. Complaint filed in Manhattan #sportsbiz #NFL #preemptivestrike
 
Scott Soshnick ‏@soshnick  3m3 minutes ago
.@NFL suit likely attempt to steer jurisdiction from Judge David Doty, who has ruled favorably for union in the past #sportsbiz
 
 
Sneaky! Quite the power plays we are watching. This has little to do with deflating footballs or phones.
 

DJnVa

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Corsi said:
 
Scott Soshnick ‏@soshnick  6m6 minutes ago
BREAKING: @NFL asks federal court to confirm Tom Brady suspension. Complaint filed in Manhattan #sportsbiz #NFL #preemptivestrike
 
Scott Soshnick ‏@soshnick  3m3 minutes ago
.@NFL suit likely attempt to steer jurisdiction from Judge David Doty, who has ruled favorably for union in the past #sportsbiz
 
 
WTF?

 
 
Sneaky! Quite the power plays we are watching. This has little to do with deflating footballs or phones.
 
 
 
Yeah, Brady is the test case for the NFL's new powerplay.
 

PedroKsBambino

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bluefenderstrat

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Corsi said:
 
Scott Soshnick ‏@soshnick  6m6 minutes ago
BREAKING: @NFL asks federal court to confirm Tom Brady suspension. Complaint filed in Manhattan #sportsbiz #NFL #preemptivestrike
 
Scott Soshnick ‏@soshnick  3m3 minutes ago
.@NFL suit likely attempt to steer jurisdiction from Judge David Doty, who has ruled favorably for union in the past #sportsbiz
 
 
Is this the first time the NFL has preemptively gone to court to have league discipline upheld?   They are choosing this hill to die on?
 

Shelterdog

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snowmanny said:
Aren't text messages stored by the carrier?
Aren't iMessages erasable on the phone?
Obviously I'm missing something but I don't really understand how destroying a cellphone matters. Anyone explain? Thanks.
 
Many carriers do not retain text message content or only keep it for a short period of time. 
 

CaptainLaddie

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cshea

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snowmanny said:
Aren't text messages stored by the carrier?
Aren't iMessages erasable on the phone?
Obviously I'm missing something but I don't really understand how destroying a cellphone matters. Anyone explain? Thanks.
League doesn't have subpoena power to get those.

If he did destroy the phone, that was a dumb move.
 

joe dokes

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I am shocked how many people don't know that the *number* of texts that are sent by each phone on the bill are right there in black and white and that by logging into an account  you can get a list of the to/from for all of them?
 

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Corsi said:
 
Scott Soshnick ‏@soshnick  6m6 minutes ago
BREAKING: @NFL asks federal court to confirm Tom Brady suspension. Complaint filed in Manhattan #sportsbiz #NFL #preemptivestrike
 
Scott Soshnick ‏@soshnick  3m3 minutes ago
.@NFL suit likely attempt to steer jurisdiction from Judge David Doty, who has ruled favorably for union in the past #sportsbiz
 
 
Is this something to be concerned about?  
 
Everyone's expectations was that once it go to court the adults would take over.  Hopefully that still holds true.  
 

Mooch

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Wait a second, how can the NFL file suit to reaffirm what they claim is justified under their own collective bargaining agreement?
 

drbretto

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snowmanny said:
Aren't text messages stored by the carrier?
Aren't iMessages erasable on the phone?
Obviously I'm missing something but I don't really understand how destroying a cellphone matters. Anyone explain? Thanks.
Because it looks bad. That's the ONLY reason. People who want to hate Brady and the Pats aren't going to see that line and say "hm, that's weird that he'd order someone to destroy his phone when all he had to do was long press on a relevant conversation and press delete". They're going to say "see, he's hiding something!"
 
And it's worked, already, on this board, IN THIS THREAD. From otherwise intelligent people. Because this has nothing to do with logic or sense. It's 100% driven by a torrent of emotions. And just like a torrent, the fact that it's nothing but hot air doesn't mean it can't ruin lives.
 

canderson

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Corsi said:
 
Scott Soshnick ‏@soshnick  6m6 minutes ago
BREAKING: @NFL asks federal court to confirm Tom Brady suspension. Complaint filed in Manhattan #sportsbiz #NFL #preemptivestrike
 
Scott Soshnick ‏@soshnick  3m3 minutes ago
.@NFL suit likely attempt to steer jurisdiction from Judge David Doty, who has ruled favorably for union in the past #sportsbiz
 
The NFLPA was pissed before this was released, I can only imagine the fury they have now. That's an entirely new turn for NFLPA freedom from the NFL itself, isn't it? 
 

burstnbloom

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dcmissle said:
Sean Berry appearance ... Hmmm

I will say this. The phone issue could have been handled better. It almost certainly would have been handled better by Kessler. Too bad Tom did not bring him in earlier and relied on Yee instead
 
DC, you've been my go to in these threads.  Help us see the light here: 
 
I just read this decision and so much of it is based on Brady's refusal to give up his phone/destruction of his phone.  Given that the NFL doesn't have a right to his personal property, isn't basing all of the findings on that one fact make this all destined to get destroyed in court?  It seems so obviously like a move by RG and the NFL to win the PR battle because they know that they are about to lose the court battle.
 

Reverend

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dcmissle said:
So here is the legally aignificart part from what I have seen so far:

Wells said TB was only generally aware of deflation, more likely than not. RG has drawn the conclusion from alleged destruction of the phone that TB directed the deflation.

This is an effort to prop up one of the major legal weaknesses in the case
 
I think this is well expressed. I have a question then:
 
To what extent can a different rationale for punishment stated in the appeal displace the rationale stated in the initial ruling? That is to say, in federal court, would the judge consider the rationale stated in the appeal, or is the appeal here just taken to mean that the initial ruling stands?
 
Obviously, in the "regular" legal system, this doesn't come up because judges aren't supposed to supply new rationales--although obviously sometimes the Supreme Court justices sneak them in and then the dissents howl in protest--but just rule on the existing ones. Of course, this is Goodell mucking things up in a sandbox he doesn't know how to play in properly--I believe it was the Hardy case where one of the reasons that the judge gave for striking the ruling down was that the appeal had invoked a new rationale in an inappropriate manner, wasn't it?
 
If anyone could shed some light on this, I think this is a pivotal issue, so it would be much appreciated.
 
 
Edit: It was in the Peterson decision--Judge Doty held that engaging in hypotheticals as to whether or not Peterson's penalty could have been justified under the previous policy exceeded his authority as the arbiter of the appeal.
 

In Vino Vinatieri

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Why would he have to direct anyone to do this? It's his phone.
 
How do you think he destroyed it? With a hammer? Run over it with a truck? Pour cement around its feet and throw it in the ocean?
 
Brady probably bought a new phone and had the old one wiped by a Certified Steve Jobs Store Genius. Or cracked the screen on his, and had the old one wiped. Or just deleted a bunch of messages instead of having 10,000 of them saved in his phone. Or it's been lost on a Caribbean island where it was used by a tribe of native supermodels to take scantily-clad selfies.
 
Considering Brady's general attitude towards the media, the fact that being forced to turn over your personal messages to your employer is creepy as fuck, the NFLPA being more willing than Brady is to fight this every step of the way, and the fact that we all know whether Doritodick McLockerRoomGuy is circumcised or not because of his text messaging which was made publicly available because of this investigation, there's a 0% chance of him ever turning over his phone short of a court order.
 
If it has anything to do with guilt you'll likely never know, but his refusal to consider it will never make me think that he did something. Definitely not from this story. He destroyed 11 of his 12 cell phones on the very day that he was due to discuss the content of his cell phones with Ted Wells and nobody found out about it for months after the fact? This leak doesn't even make sense on its face, which I guess is what it was designed to do. If they said Brady's lawyers destroyed his phone after collecting the relevant information I might believe it.
 

Marciano490

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Hoya81 said:
Lawyers, can they do that?
 
I don't see why not, frankly, unless I'm missing something.  But, not to worry, the SDNY judges are the best in the country.  If Brady's case is solid, they'll see it his way.
 

Myt1

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drbretto said:
Because it looks bad. That's the ONLY reason. People who want to hate Brady and the Pats aren't going to see that line and say "hm, that's weird that he'd order someone to destroy his phone when all he had to do was long press on a relevant conversation and press delete". They're going to say "see, he's hiding something!"
 
And it's worked, already, on this board, IN THIS THREAD. From otherwise intelligent people. Because this has nothing to do with logic or sense. It's 100% driven by a torrent of emotions. And just like a torrent, the fact that it's nothing but hot air doesn't mean it can't ruin lives.
People who practice law for a living and actually like Brady and the Patriots are going to think the timing of destroying the phone is bad. Because it is.
 

jose melendez

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Just put this on Facebook, but I'll put it her too.  The Patriots should be stripped of their AFC Championship win and the Super Bowl should be declared vacant.  I'm completely serious.  If the NFL regards this as a cover up of real cheating on a serious scale, that's the correct position. 
 

Bongorific

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Just finished reading the decision. Like the Wells report, lots of legal writing without much legal argument. Point 1a is still the non cooperation by not turning over the phone and now the new claim of destroying the phone. My guess is the NFL is trying to use that as a tacit admission of guilt but they don't really have any legal principal to support that.

I don't know what the court will do. I do know that this entire fiasco has been blown way, way out of proportion.
 

djbayko

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I love everyone saying that we all should destroy our phones. Sorry, with the resale value of iPhones, I'll take my chances with a factory reset and collect my $399.

Tom Brady should absolutely destroy his phone.
 

Sportsbstn

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jose melendez said:
Just put this on Facebook, but I'll put it her too.  The Patriots should be stripped of their AFC Championship win and the Super Bowl should be declared vacant.  I'm completely serious.  If the NFL regards this as a cover up of real cheating on a serious scale, that's the correct position. 
Oh good lord
 

RIFan

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First, the NFL is a reprehensible organization.  There is no doubt in my mind they released today knowing that it is Pedro Day at Fenway.  Any chance to steal the spotlight is always taken.
 
Second, many of you have to prepare yourself that Brady did in fact say something to Mcnally and/or Jastremski about the balls.  Maybe he didn't tell them to deflate to 11.5, but it is entirely possible that he told them make sure the Refs didn't over inflate and get the balls to the field the way he likes them.  No smoking gun statement, but something interpreted slightly liberally or out of context is all it would take.  None of that matters since there was no competitive advantage and no physical proof the balls were altered.  It's all bullshit put together by a league that somehow doesn't recognize that the players are the actual product, not the shield. 
 
This all reminds me of Mark Cuban last year commenting that the NFL was 10 years from implosion.  When pigs get fat, they get slaughtered.  The NFL is getting awfully porky and is by no means bulletproof.
 

Tyrone Biggums

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jose melendez said:
Just put this on Facebook, but I'll put it her too.  The Patriots should be stripped of their AFC Championship win and the Super Bowl should be declared vacant.  I'm completely serious.  If the NFL regards this as a cover up of real cheating on a serious scale, that's the correct position. 
Over psi's? Not sure if you are actually serious or not...
 

jose melendez

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Sorry why did you
 
Sportsbstn said:
 
Just put this on Facebook, but I'll put it her too.  The Patriots should be stripped of their AFC Championship win and the Super Bowl should be declared vacant.  I'm completely serious.  If the NFL regards this as a cover up of real cheating on a serious scale, that's the correct position. 
 
Sorry, why did you quote this?
 

Jimbodandy

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Sportsbstn said:
 
Just put this on Facebook, but I'll put it her too.  The Patriots should be stripped of their AFC Championship win and the Super Bowl should be declared vacant.  I'm completely serious.  If the NFL regards this as a cover up of real cheating on a serious scale, that's the correct position. 
 
 
Wow
 

jose melendez

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Tyrone Biggums said:
Over psi's? Not sure if you are actually serious or not...
If it's serious enough to warrant a four game suspension plus the loss of two draft picks, it must have had a real impact on competition.  If a team tried to rig a game they should forfeit.  This should either be way lighter or way heavier.
 

PedroKsBambino

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loshjott said:
Does the NFL's action in federal court preclude the NFLPA from filing in Minn or Mass?
 
It's an attempt to prevent that.  Someone who knows standing and venue issues within labor/arbitration will need to opine on whether it is likely to be successful.

Generally (and with some exceptions) federal courts don't issue advisory opinions, so there would need to be a mechanism within labor or arbitration law to let the 'winning' party seek federal court involvement.  There may be such a thing---just do not know
 

Ed Hillel

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jose melendez said:
Just put this on Facebook, but I'll put it her too.  The Patriots should be stripped of their AFC Championship win and the Super Bowl should be declared vacant.  I'm completely serious.  If the NFL regards this as a cover up of real cheating on a serious scale, that's the correct position. 
 
Roger himself has actually equated it to PED use. I guess that means like 99% of all wins in the NFL the past 15 seasons should be vacated. Maybe 100%, I'm not sure there's ever been a team without a PED user on it at any given time in the NFL.
 
But you could be making a subtle point I'm not quite picking up on...
 

WayBackVazquez

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There is no Rev said:
 
I think this is well expressed. I have a question then:
 
To what extent can a different rationale for punishment stated in the appeal displace the rationale stated in the initial ruling? That is to say, in federal court, would the judge consider the rationale stated in the appeal, or is the appeal here just taken to mean that the initial ruling stands?
 
Obviously, in the "regular" legal system, this doesn't come up because judges aren't supposed to supply new rationales--although obviously sometimes the Supreme Court justices sneak them in and then the dissents howl in protest--but just rule on the existing ones. Of course, this is Goodell mucking things up in a sandbox he doesn't know how to play in properly--I believe it was the Hardy case where one of the reasons that the judge gave for striking the ruling down was that the appeal had invoked a new rationale in an inappropriate manner, wasn't it?
 
If anyone could shed some light on this, I think this is a pivotal issue, so it would be much appreciated.
 
Actually, the general rule in the "regular" system is that the appellate court can affirm the decision below for ANY reason supported by the record.
 

joe dokes

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To what extent can a different rationale for punishment stated in the appeal displace the rationale stated in the initial ruling? That is to say, in federal court, would the judge consider the rationale stated in the appeal, or is the appeal here just taken to mean that the initial ruling stands?
 
 
In the admin law context, a review court CANNOT supply a rationale -- even one apparent from the record -- that the agency itself did not rely upon.
 
In the regular legal context -- at least in federal court -- an appeals court can affirm a trial court decision based on any basis apparent from the record, even if a different reason than the one relied on by the trial court.
 

Punchado

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Help me understand. He was suspended for generally knowing about deflation and not cooperating. According to their statement about the appeal they heard nothing that changed their minds about this being true. And they said this is the same as a PED first time offense so the four games is justified. Why then would they need to lead their statement saying that the suspension is upheld because of new info about phone destruction? They didn't need any new info. The only reason I can think of is is to make themselves look "even more right" so people aren't mad at them. These are really awful people and even worse managers.
 

Section15Box113

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geoduck no quahog said:
Riddle me this.
 
1. It's clear that Brady never had any intention of turning over his private phone (or emails, or voice messages...). As a member of the NLPA he needed to draw a line and not set precedent for future players.
 
2. The NFL PR machine will keep stating that he was allowed to personally vet all messages and only turn over those that related to their investigation. That's irrelevant, given item (1) above.
 
3. If he wanted to look like he was cooperating (rather than upholding players' rights), he could have handed over to them 1,000 messages that were exculpatory.
 
4. He had no intention of setting even that precedent. He also knew that if he handed over 1,000 - the NFL would just say there were 5,000 more that confirmed his guilt.
 
Except if he knew that Goodell might suspend him and that this matter might ultimately make it to court, perhaps locking it in a safe deposit box was the way to go?
 
So, with that said - and thinking back to a previous discussion about the preliminary injunction:
1. Brady still is the one with risk of irreparable harm from a suspension.
2. The balance of hardships still weighs on Brady rather than on the league.
 
So the question becomes whether there's any impact here on:
3. Likelihood of success on the merits.
 
Does the destruction of the cellphone cast doubt on point #3, even if he wasn't obligated to hand over a personal phone under the CBA?
 
Legal experts, since I am out of my depth here and did not stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night, do I have this right?  And if I haven't bungled it completely, what say you on point #3?
 

Papelbon's Poutine

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Not that I give two shits about it (because he wasn't turning it over either way) but why tell them you destroyed it? Why destroy it to begin with, does he not sync it? Every four months his assistant re-enters all his contacts manually?
 

DJnVa

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jose melendez said:
Just put this on Facebook, but I'll put it her too.  The Patriots should be stripped of their AFC Championship win and the Super Bowl should be declared vacant.  I'm completely serious.  If the NFL regards this as a cover up of real cheating on a serious scale, that's the correct position. 
 
The NFL likened it to PEDs, not real cheating on a serious scale.
 
 

Tyrone Biggums

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jose melendez said:
If it's serious enough to warrant a four game suspension plus the loss of two draft picks, it must have had a real impact on competition.  If a team tried to rig a game they should forfeit.  This should either be way lighter or way heavier.
So what do you make about super bowl teams that have had steroid users knowingly play for them?

The NFL office is filled with Ex Jets who have zero love for the Pats.
 

jose melendez

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Ed Hillel said:
 
Roger himself has actually equated it to PED use. I guess that means like 99% of all wins in the NFL the past 15 seasons should be vacated. Maybe 100%, I'm not sure there's ever been a team without a PED user on it at any given time in the NFL.
 
But you could be making a subtle point I'm not quite picking up on...
How many PED teams have forefeited picks?
 

Bongorific

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yecul said:
 
Sneaky! Quite the power plays we are watching. This has little to do with deflating footballs or phones.
Yup, that train left the station a long time ago. This is the battleground for NFLPA v NFL. The next collective bargaining agreement negotiation will not go well. The last several years has created a really ugly labor dispute.
 

drbretto

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jose melendez said:
If it's serious enough to warrant a four game suspension plus the loss of two draft picks, it must have had a real impact on competition.  If a team tried to rig a game they should forfeit.  This should either be way lighter or way heavier.
 
I think I get what you're trying to get at, and I suspect we're supposed to take your original post there somewhat sarcastically. But the way you wrote it, it sounds actually specifically what's gone on here in the public eye since day one. Well, if they're going to spend $5million investigating this, then this MUST be a huge issue!
 
It's not though. Or at least it shouldn't be.
 

loshjott

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Papelbon's Poutine said:
Not that I give two shits about it (because he wasn't turning it over either way) but why tell them you destroyed it? Why destroy it to begin with, does he not sync it? Every four months his assistant re-enters all his contacts manually?
 
Wasn't the appeal hearing under oath? NFL likely asked about it.