#DFG: Canceling the Noise

[Revkeith]

If/when this goes to court, isn't the phone issue irrelevant? Won't it center around the punishment having no precedent, being centered around "maybe" and the appeal effectively being rigged from the start?
 
It's like getting out of a speeding ticket by saying the cop got your plate # wrong or didn't sign the ticket, but hey, I've gotten out of speeding tickets that way.

 

[MiracleOfO2704]

Just put this on Facebook, but I'll put it her too.  The Patriots should be stripped of their AFC Championship win and the Super Bowl should be declared vacant.  I'm completely serious.  If the NFL regards this as a cover up of real cheating on a serious scale, that's the correct position. 

This is true, but does the NFL want to admit their showcase game, a ratings driver worldwide, was a complete sham and should have never been played as it was?

Also, didn't Kravitz make a point in saying the alterations had no effect on the game? And that got us to 4 games, 2 first rounders, and $1 million?

 

[( . ) ( . ) and (_!_)]

If it's serious enough to warrant a four game suspension plus the loss of two draft picks, it must have had a real impact on competition.  If a team tried to rig a game they should forfeit.  This should either be way lighter or way heavier.

 
But this very clearly is not about the PSIs in footballs.  This is about the power struggle between the NFL and the NFLPA.  The football pressure is just the medium through which the fight is taking place. 
 
If this was about cheating and integrity of the game, maybe you have a point.  But that has become a completely irrelevant.  
 
In the words of Bill Walton, you are letting the show get in the way of the game.  

 

[PedroKsBambino]

Help me understand. He was suspended for generally knowing about deflation and not cooperating. According to their statement about the appeal they heard nothing that changed their minds about this being true. And they said this is the same as a PED first time offense so the four games is justified. Why then would they need to lead their statement saying that the suspension is upheld because of new info about phone destruction? They didn't need any new info. The only reason I can think of is is to make themselves look "even more right" so people aren't mad at them. These are really awful people and even worse managers.

 
I think they are trying to create a better record, and also to play a PR card to control the issue.

I agree with the assessment of the NFL leadership as people and as managers.   They have gone to war on their signature franchise and single most visible player over silliness; David Stern and Pete Rozelle would never have made this set of mistakes.

 

[LuckyBen]

Help me understand. He was suspended for generally knowing about deflation and not cooperating. According to their statement about the appeal they heard nothing that changed their minds about this being true. And they said this is the same as a PED first time offense so the four games is justified. Why then would they need to lead their statement saying that the suspension is upheld because of new info about phone destruction? They didn't need any new info. The only reason I can think of is is to make themselves look "even more right" so people aren't mad at them. These are really awful people and even worse managers.

Exactly, this is Goodell covering his ass through lawyer speak. No different than the Wells report. This has always been a witch hunt.

 

[Steve Dillard]

Lawyers, can they do that?

 
Yes, if the CBA provides for such jurisdiction.  They are asking to confirm an arbitration award, and FAA 9 U.S.C. 9 provides.  I wonder about jurisdiction, which would depend on Brady's consent to jurisdiction.
 

If the parties in their agreement have agreed that a judgment of the court shall be entered upon the award made pursuant to the arbitration, and shall specify the court, then at any time within one year after the award is made any party to the arbitration may apply to the court so specified for an order confirming the award, and thereupon the court must grant such an order unless the award is vacated, modified, or corrected as prescribed in sections 10 and 11 of this title. If no court is specified in the agreement of the parties, then such application may be made to the United States court in and for the district within which such award was made. Notice of the application shall be served upon the adverse party, and thereupon the court shall have jurisdiction of such party as though he had appeared generally in the proceeding. If the adverse party is a resident of the district within which the award was made, such service shall be made upon the adverse party or his attorney as prescribed by law for service of notice of motion in an action in the same court. If the adverse party shall be a nonresident, then the notice of the application shall be served by the marshal of any district within which the adverse party may be found in like manner as other process of the court.
 

 

[HomeBrew1901]

One thing I'm surprised about is that the NFLPA is waiting for Brady to give them permission to file the suit per one of the tweets above. 
 
What if Brady just decides to accept the 4 games so that it goes away?

 

[Marciano490]

Not that I give two shits about it (because he wasn't turning it over either way) but why tell them you destroyed it? Why destroy it to begin with, does he not sync it? Every four months his assistant re-enters all his contacts manually?

 
Presumably he keeps his working cell phone on him or in his locker.  His old cell phone, after syncing, just lays about the house and could potentially be swiped by a random guest or employee or whomever, cracked and disseminated.  If you have a bajillion dollars what's the harm of destroying your old phone to make sure that some fluke eventuality doesn't come to pass that ends up embarrassing you and your famous wife.

 

[Ed Hillel]

Wasn't the appeal hearing under oath? NFL likely asked about it.

 
Why go under oath, then? The optics of "going under oath" is nothing compared to the negative impact of this.

 

[jose melendez]

Roger may be likening it to PED's, but that's not how he's treated it.

 

[Reverend]

I think jose is saying that they would never do that because in reality they don't.

 

[nolasoxfan]

 
Minus the secretary part, that's what everyone should do with their cellphones when they get a new one. Especially rich and famous people.

No, that’s what everybody should do whether they are rich and famous or not.  It’s a good practice, and not as out of the ordinary as the NFL wants everyone to think.

 

[bsj]

One thing I'm surprised about is that the NFLPA is waiting for Brady to give them permission to file the suit per one of the tweets above. 
 
What if Brady just decides to accept the 4 games so that it goes away?

 
I dont see how he does that. His reputation is a disaster and it just got worse. He really has no where to go but up. 

 

[Three10toLeft]

Not that I give two shits about it (because he wasn't turning it over either way) but why tell them you destroyed it? Why destroy it to begin with, does he not sync it? Every four months his assistant re-enters all his contacts manually?

You can get pretty granular with regards to your sync settings these days on iOS, which I'm assuming Brady uses since was seen purchasing an Apple Watch.

He could select contacts to sync, and never save his text/iMessages.

 

[HomeBrew1901]

 
I dont see how he does that. His reputation is a disaster and it just got worse. He really has no where to go but up. 

Sadly it can always get worse

 

[Mooch]

One thing I'm surprised about is that the NFLPA is waiting for Brady to give them permission to file the suit per one of the tweets above. 
 
What if Brady just decides to accept the 4 games so that it goes away?

I'm starting to get a sickening feeling that it may go this way and we're going to be one pissed off and disillusioned fan base.

 

[Bleedred]

What in God's name does Bob Kraft do if this thing is pending come opening night?  Does Goodell typically attend flag raising ceremonies?  Does Kraft say anything today, tomorrow, later, in support of TB12?  If he does, does it piss off his billionaire brothers.   Does he keep his mouth shut (which is the prudent thing to do, but I can't believe he will).   

 

[Reverend]

 
Actually, the general rule in the "regular" system is that the appellate court can affirm the decision below for ANY reason supported by the record.

 
Cool, thanks for that. Follow up, then: Does that mean the court can similarly declare the reasoning that the failure to produce the phone (and to destroy it) does NOT support the league's contention that that meant Brady participated in the deflation of the balls?
 
Based on what people have been saying, that kind of hearing of the merits seemed outside the scope of what would go on in court. I'm just trying to figure out what the judge will look at given there are basically two different rulings with different justifications for Brady's penalty.

 

[jose melendez]

 
But this very clearly is not about the PSIs in footballs.  This is about the power struggle between the NFL and the NFLPA.  The football pressure is just the medium through which the fight is taking place. 
 
If this was about cheating and integrity of the game, maybe you have a point.  But that has become a completely irrelevant.  
 
In the words of Bill Walton, you are letting the show get in the way of the game.  

 
My point is if this undermined the integrity of the game in a real way, as the NFL seems to believe, the game should be forfeit. 
 
I think the NFL has actually taken the most gutless path of all.  If it effected competition, forfeit the game, if not, cut this way the hell down. 

 

[wibi]

No, that’s what everybody should do whether they are rich and famous or not.  It’s a good practice, and not as out of the ordinary as the NFL wants everyone to think.

 
I know no one (remember what I do) who actually destroy's their phones when they get a new one.

 

[yecul]

RG's decision is written with the appeal in mind. Setting precedent, highlighting (and expanding upon) Brady's lack of cooperation, etc. The legal document is intended to portray a reasonable, independent and impartial appeal process.
 
Whether that is true or not is obviously up to interpretation. Whether that holds up in court as such up in the air as well. But it had to be done that way.
 
The timing, execution and follow through of this has been strong for the NFL. The PA has an uphill battle methinks and we may see them defeated. The NFL has anticipated the appeal all along and has positioned itself to present a winning case and have now defined the fighting ground. Brady may miss a month here.

 

[bankshot1]

 
 
Because your wireless company knows how many times you used the service they provide.
 

I know that, but how does the NFL access that information? Its private.

 

[RedOctober3829]

 

Gary Myers ‏@garymyersNYDN  4m4 minutes ago
Sources just told me Brady camp will definitely be filing for an injunction to put the four game suspension on hold.
 

 

[ngruz25]

Page 12, footnote 11. Brady's legal team offered to produce a spreadsheet of all individuals Brady contacted during the relevant time period, and suggested that the league contact those individuals to retrieve any relevant text messages.

Rog dismissed this offer as impractical.

Wait, what's Brady hiding again?

 

[Ralphwiggum]

The optics of destroying the phone sucks, but if he had no intention of ever turning it over and wasn't in fact required to do so under the CBA then I don't get why it matters from a legal perspective. 

 

[jsinger121]

 
 
 

 
And there is the strike back

 

[PedroKsBambino]

 
Yes, if the CBA provides for such jurisdiction.  They are asking to confirm an arbitration award, and FAA 9 U.S.C. 9 provides.  I wonder about jurisdiction, which would depend on Brady's consent to jurisdiction.
 

 
 Could theory be that NFLPA is a litigant?

 

[drbretto]

 
Eh, worst case is he misses four games, comes back, and life goes on.

 
For some of us, this isn't the important part. I'm not even a huge fan, but seeing what appears to be a pretty stand up guy getting dragged through the mud like this is maddening. Even if he's stone cold guilty this whole thing has been a farce. And a lot of the themes here genuinely sadden me. Truth doesn't mean a damn thing here. This whole thing is nothing but PR and lawyers. 

 

[( . ) ( . ) and (_!_)]

 
My point is if this undermined the integrity of the game in a real way, as the NFL seems to believe, the game should be forfeit. 
 
I think the NFL has actually taken the most gutless path of all.  If it effected competition, forfeit the game, if not, cut this way the hell down. 

 
I'm sorry but that's too simplistic of a view about the realities of this fiasco. 
 
I seriously doubt the NFL thinks this effected the outcome of the game.  But they can't cut it down because they can't let the NFLPA win.  
 
Gutless is absolutely the right word.  But it is also the reality of the situation, there is no sense in denying it.  

 

[WayBackVazquez]

 
Cool, thanks for that. Follow up, then: Does that mean the court can similarly declare the reasoning that the failure to produce the phone (and to destroy it) does NOT support the league's contention that that meant Brady participated in the deflation of the balls?
 
Based on what people have been saying, that kind of hearing of the merits seemed outside the scope of what would go on in court. I'm just trying to figure out what the judge will look at given there are basically two different rulings with different justifications for Brady's penalty.

 
That's a little bit of standard of review question mixed with arbitration confirmation/vacation question that I don;t feel qualified to answer.
 
My gut is that the purpose of the appeal was to consider new evidence, and the new evidence (of the destruction) was produced by Brady, so it would be hard to say the arbitrator can only consider it if it's exculpatory.

 

[loshjott]

He should have had his dog take a dump on it then deliver it to Goodell in a plastic bag.

 

[Bleedred]

Page 12, footnote 11. Brady's legal team offered to produce a spreadsheet of all individuals Brady contacted during the relevant time period, and suggested that the league contact those individuals to retrieve any relevant text messages.

Rog dismissed this offer as impractical.

Wait, what's Brady hiding again?

Specifically:   "Mr. Brady's certified agents offered to provide a spreadsheet that would identify all of the individuals with whom Brady exchanged text messages during that period;...and suggested that the League could contact those individuals and request production of any relevant text messages that they retained"   RG said it was "simply not practical."

 

[Average Reds]

Wait a second, how can the NFL file suit to reaffirm what they claim is justified under their own collective bargaining agreement?

I've taken part in several arbitration a and I know that the winner of action can file to ensure that the terms of the arbitration are upheld.

This is a bit different. The NFL is both the entity that made and will enforce the decision. I'm unsure if they have the right to pre-empt Brady in this fashion, but if they are right and they end changing the venue to Manhattan they will have cut the legs out of the NFLPAs established legal advantage.

I'll let actual lawyers weigh in on the tactics here, but I wish Brady had pre-emptively filed to get an injunction to secure venue.

 

[mwonow]

He should have had his dog take a dump on it then deliver it to Goodell in a plastic bag.

 
Odds of Kensil et al digging through shit for a chance to mess around with Brady are....

 

[joe dokes]

Page 12, footnote 11. Brady's legal team offered to produce a spreadsheet of all individuals Brady contacted during the relevant time period, and suggested that the league contact those individuals to retrieve any relevant text messages.

Rog dismissed this offer as impractical.

Wait, what's Brady hiding again?          
 

 
I understand that this is not a lawsuit, but "I'm not giving it to you because you can get it from all of these folks" is not regarded as a satisfactory answer to a permissible discovery request. (Yes, I know "permissible" is up for debate).
 

I'll let actual lawyers weigh in on the tactics here, but I wish Brady had pre-emptively filed to get an injunction to secure venue.           

 
good move by the NFL lawyers.  Courts don't like "races to the courthouse" where the first to file is in a jurisdiction that has only a tenuous connection to the litigation and was made only for tactical advantage, but I'm not well-versed enough on the Minnesota--NY angles to know whether this would be seen as that.  Absent some weak jurisdictional links, the first-to-file rule applies.
 
That said, I would think that the NFLPA would file wherever *they* think they have the best shot -- assuming such a place has at least some arguable jurisdiction -- and then let the dueling venue transfer  motions decide.

 

[Ed Hillel]

 
I know no one (remember what I do) who actually destroy's their phones when they get a new one.

 
I would sure hope they destroy the SIM cards. I believe that's what "destroyed" means in this context.

 

[CaptainLaddie]

 
I know no one (remember what I do) who actually destroy's their phones when they get a new one.

 
The phrase "destroy" is kinda key here.  Did he throw it into a woodchipper or something?  I absolutely wipe clean everything off old phones when I get a new one

 

[mwonow]

I've taken part in several arbitration a and I know that the winner of action can file to ensure that the terms of the arbitration are upheld.

This is a bit different. The NFL is both the entity that made and will enforce the decision. I'm unsure if they have the right to pre-empt Brady in this fashion, but if they are right and they end upping the venue to Manhattan they will have cut the legs out of the NFLPAs established legal advantage.

I'll let actual lawyers weigh in on the tactics here, but I wish Brady had pre-emptively filed to get an injunction to secure venue.

 
While the actual lawyers are weighing in - does the NFL's action preclude Team Brady from filing its own motion in Minnesota?

 

[DJnVa]

I know that, but how does the NFL access that information? Its private.

 
 
Brady provided them with a letter from his wireless company. It's been posted in this thread or the recently locked on.
 

 

[genoasalami]

One thing I'm surprised about is that the NFLPA is waiting for Brady to give them permission to file the suit per one of the tweets above. 
 
What if Brady just decides to accept the 4 games so that it goes away?

 
i was under the assumption that one of the risks he is taking by going to to court... is that if he loses...he may be forced to take the suspension later in the season which could include critical games in December or for that matter January...

 

[dcmissle]

I'm sorry but there is NFW Brady folds here.  They are surprised by nothing -- he gave RG the new bullet used today and Kessler damn well knew it.  they also could anticipate exactly how it could be used.
 
If they were going to cave, they would have cut a deal.

 

[PseuFighter]

maybe he was using whisper.

 

[nolasoxfan]

 
I would sure hope they destroy the SIM cards. I believe that's what "destroyed" means in this context.

That’s exactly what I meant.  Not the actual phone itself.

 

[Dewy4PrezII]

Brady was hiding his phone from the post Jaws Orca that is the NFL.

Fuck it looks to me like the NFL legal team just won this battle and set themselves up pretty for court.

 

[WayBackVazquez]

 
While the actual lawyers are weighing in - does the NFL's action preclude Team Brady from filing its own motion in Minnesota?

 
They can file, but the general rule is "first-to-file" wins as far as venue. This actually may be a case that is subject to the "special circumstances" exception to that general rule, however.

 

[wibi]

 
I would sure hope they destroy the SIM cards. I believe that's what "destroyed" means in this context.

 
Nope.  We keep all the old SIM cards for exactly the reason Brady shouldnt have destroyed the phone.

 

[DJnVa]

Brady was hiding his phone from the post Jaws Orca that is the NFL.

Fuck it looks to me like the NFL legal team just won this battle and set themselves up pretty for court.

 
 
Except Brady knew they had this info, because he gave it to them, and perhaps they used it exactly like his team thought they would.
 

 

[PedroKsBambino]

 
Nope.  We keep all the old SIM cards for exactly the reason Brady shouldnt have destroyed the phone.

 
Many government employees are legally obligated to keep their communications.  Brady is not.

 

[Mooch]

If the NFLPA allowed the league to get the jump on them in court, that's a major blunder.

 

[Average Reds]

 
While the actual lawyers are weighing in - does the NFL's action preclude Team Brady from filing its own motion in Minnesota?

My understanding is that venue is usually decided by the entity that files first. And the NFL is clearly trying to do that here.

Whether they have that ability I do not know.