#DFG: Canceling the Noise

[canderson]

In a lawyer/legalese battle, when the NFL and NFLPA face off won't the NFL have an endless amount of money to hire the absolute best lawyers in the world to get any ruling in their favor? 
 
I'd think it'd be hard for anyone to face off with them and live to tell about it. Is that wrong? 

 

[RedOctober3829]

I'm not saying it would. But they have to mount a defense, if for no other reason than to secure a solid case of travishamockery in federal court.

Yes I agree with that.  They provided more than enough information to the NFL in order to clear up some of the electronic communication.  I have great doubt that they would have taken his word that he was handing over all relevant texts/emails/etc. at the March 6 meeting.

 

[lexrageorge]

In a lawyer/legalese battle, when the NFL and NFLPA face off won't the NFL have an endless amount of money to hire the absolute best lawyers in the world to get any ruling in their favor? 
 
I'd think it'd be hard for anyone to face off with them and live to tell about it. Is that wrong? 

The NFL has lost high profile court cases previously (American Needle comes to mind).  

 

[dcmissle]

Shut Yee up now. He is saying NFL wanted home cooking in SDNY.

Well guess what -- the case may stay in SDNY.

Idiot

 

[WayBackVazquez]

In a lawyer/legalese battle, when the NFL and NFLPA face off won't the NFL have an endless amount of money to hire the absolute best lawyers in the world to get any ruling in their favor? 
 
I'd think it'd be hard for anyone to face off with them and live to tell about it. Is that wrong? 

 
Yes, it's wrong.

 

[Average Reds]

In a lawyer/legalese battle, when the NFL and NFLPA face off won't the NFL have an endless amount of money to hire the absolute best lawyers in the world to get any ruling in their favor? 
 
I'd think it'd be hard for anyone to face off with them and live to tell about it. Is that wrong? 

Winning legal battles with the NFL is about the only thing that the NFLPA seems to be good at. And Kessler seems to be the best.

I should also point out that for the purposes of this litigation, there isn't much difference between the financial strength of the NFL and NFLPA.

 

[lexrageorge]

Shut Yee up now. He is saying NFL wanted home cooking in SDNY.

Well guess what -- the case may stay in SDNY.

Idiot

Why is what he said at all influential to the case venue?  
 
There is a lot of bad faith behavior of the NFL going on, both openly and behind the scenes.  Not all responses can wait until the court battle. 

 

[canderson]

Winning legal battles with the NFL is about the only thing that the NFLPA seems to be good at. And Kessler seems to be the best.

I should also point out that for the purposes of this litigation, there isn't much difference between the financial strength of the NFL and NFLPA.

Thanks, like I said I wasn't sure (never really paid much attention to NFL legal cases). 

 

[PaulinMyrBch]

 

In a lawyer/legalese battle, when the NFL and NFLPA face off won't the NFL have an endless amount of money to hire the absolute best lawyers in the world to get any ruling in their favor? 
 
I'd think it'd be hard for anyone to face off with them and live to tell about it. Is that wrong? 

 

 

Winning legal battles with the NFL is about the only thing that the NFLPA seems to be good at. And Kessler seems to be the best.

I should also point out that for the purposes of this litigation, there isn't much difference between the financial strength of the NFL and NFLPA.

 
I'm going out on a limb here and guess Canderson has never met a federal judge? They, for the most part, do not play. They have power, they aren't impressed with yours, and they see through the BS. I would think if the judges in either the NY or Minn jurisdiction feel the NFL was forum shopping, that is not a good thing for the NFL. 

 

[dcmissle]

Why is what he said at all influential to the case venue?  
 
There is a lot of bad faith behavior of the NFL going on, both openly and behind the scenes.  Not all responses can wait until the court battle. 

You are missing my point. Yee is implicitly endorsing the notion that a judge in the SDNY is going to be biased in favor of RG. No judge wants to hear that -- it's a brotherhood down there. And they may well wind up before Berman if their filing in Minnesota does not stick.

 

[Reverend]

 
Apologies if previously posted
 
 
http://sportsworld.nbcsports.com/tom-brady-broken-phone/
 
 
THE PEOPLE* VS. TOM BRADY
* Those who believe the NFL's version of events that still remain murky, even after a six-month investigation
 
By Joe Posnanski
 
There’s a famous Carl Sandburg quote that goes something like this: “If the facts are against you, argue the law, If the law is against you, argue the facts. If both are against you, pound the table and yell like hell.”
 
It’s a great quote but, realistically, it just doesn’t quite fit into today’s culture of spin. That’s because everyone now knows that you don’t have to pound the table. In all arguments — even the most doomed ones — that will be SOME facts that are with you. The key is getting people to believe those facts are more important and more instructive than all the other facts.
 

 
As a rule, we prefer that whole pieces not be posted. A blurb of a favorite or most relevant part is fine, but the authors should have the benefit of people who want to read the whole thing go to their site and we try to respect that.

 

[Stitch01]

So we really think Yee is talking without sanction from Brady and his legal team? That would surprise me.

 

[Drocca]

I was....Mentaldisbld, I've PMd you. Waiting for instructions.

Hold on. Am I reading this right that you changed your name a THIRD time?

If so, why not just stop posting?

 

[Jimbodandy]

Scarborough ME Police watch over Goodell's property.
 
http://www.pressherald.com/2015/07/29/scarborough-police-watch-over-roger-goodells-home-on-prouts-neck/

 
Nice of the paper to put in enough identifying information to find an overhead view of his house on google maps in about 90 seconds.  WTF is wrong with people.

 

[Corsi]

Long, but mostly all relevant.
 
http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/writer/jason-la-canfora/25253590/bradys-agent-nfl-shifted-focus-to-phone-because-its-science-is-junk
 

Yee said Brady's legal team has not yet fully decided on its next course of action, though seeking an injunction in a federal court is seen as very likely. And he continued to rail against the "junk" science he says Wells utilized in report in his quest to determine why certain balls were inflated at particular levels. Yee likened Goodell's written decision to "subterfuge" to obscure media and fan attention from what did or did not happen to the footballs in question and focus it on whatever may have happened with Brady's cell phone.

 

[BroodsSexton]

Berman is an able, well-established judge, with a reputation for being a bit mercurial and temperamental (I have never experienced that). If he thinks the fix was in, I don't think he will pull punches and the NFL will not be happy with the result.

 

[epraz]

As a lawyer who knows just a little bit about declaratory judgment standards, I wonder if the NFL could have met the case/controversy requirements at the time it filed its claim, before Brady/NFLPA had decided to appeal.

 

[TheRealness]

You are missing my point. Yee is implicitly endorsing the notion that a judge in the SDNY is going to be biased in favor of RG. No judge wants to hear that -- it's a brotherhood down there. And they may well wind up before Berman if their filing in Minnesota does not stick.

 
Yes, I find most judges hate to have their ability to be impartial questioned. This is very similar to the notion that the Judge will rule against Brady on the procedural issues because the Judge throws a tantrum when he finds out Brady wiped his phone... despite his phone wiping not having any bearing on the main procedural issues in the appeal. 

 

[Mooch]

You are missing my point. Yee is implicitly endorsing the notion that a judge in the SDNY is going to be biased in favor of RG. No judge wants to hear that -- it's a brotherhood down there. And they may well wind up before Berman if their filing in Minnesota does not stick.

I thought the whole court issue was the NFLPA vs. the NFL? Yee isn't going to be arguing in front of the SDNY, is he?

 

[Dan Murfman]

Hold on. Am I reading this right that you changed your name a THIRD time?

If so, why not just stop posting?

Nope you're a moron. He had a bet with him and he's trying to pay it off.

 

[tims4wins]

From the La Canfora article
 
 
 

"Since we're willing to provide the identity of all NFL-related personnel," Yee said, "if the underlying event was trying to determine if there was a scheme to deflate footballs improperly before the AFC Championship Game, who do you think Tom would be communicating with to allegedly do so? The Wells Report already exonerated the coaching staff and the Patriots' organization, so who else could Tom have communicated with to help concoct and execute a scheme to deflate footballs? Could it have been (actor) Mark Wahlberg?

"We were willing to reveal identities of everyone in Tom's phone. Everybody. We took the extra step to provide the Commissioner with all of Tom's personal cell phone billing records -- the billing records show all outgoing and incoming phone calls and texts. We took the further step to advise the Commissioner we were willing to disclose the identity of every single person in the billing record Tom communicated with. We took the additional step of speaking to general counsel at AT&T to determine if the company could somehow retrieve all those text message and he wrote letter back saying that's not possible, and we gave that letter to the commissioner as well. The commissioner tried to imply Tom was hiding something; does this seem like the behavior of someone trying to hide something?"

 

[AB in DC]

[mooch beat me to it]

 

[lexrageorge]

You are missing my point. Yee is implicitly endorsing the notion that a judge in the SDNY is going to be biased in favor of RG. No judge wants to hear that -- it's a brotherhood down there. And they may well wind up before Berman if their filing in Minnesota does not stick.

 
 

I thought the whole court issue was the NFLPA vs. the NFL? Yee isn't going to be arguing in front of the SDNY, is he?

DCM's point makes a lot of sense; thanks for clarifying it.  I agree that Yee should not comment about legal venues and judges, even if he's not directly a party to the court case.   
 
I thought DCM was questioning Yee's comments about the cell phone records and Brady's cooperation.  On that front, I really don't see any downside for Brady and Yee to go on the offensive.  The NFL has essentially forced Brady's hand with their tactics. 

 

[PaulinMyrBch]

They need to go visual. Put the Feb 28th email from Wells on twitter. 

 

[MuppetAsteriskTalk]

Shut Yee up now. He is saying NFL wanted home cooking in SDNY.

Well guess what -- the case may stay in SDNY.

Idiot

 
I was thinking that might not be a good look if it stays in SDNY.
 
Then I was remembering when Bob Kraft made his statement about having faith in Wells to be objective and deliver the facts. Wells ended up trying to use that statement against Kraft in the aftermath of his report. Nobody sane blames Kraft for his statements up front but it's really poor ethics for Wells to throw them in his face after the fact.
 
Here Yee took the opposite tact it seems. 

 

[BroodsSexton]

As a lawyer who knows just a little bit about declaratory judgment standards, I wonder if the NFL could have met the case/controversy requirements at the time it filed its claim, before Brady/NFLPA had decided to appeal.

Typically either party can file to confirm an arbitration decision. Not sure if it's different in the labor context.

 

[soxhop411]

“@Toucherandrich: Don Yee tells Jason LaCanfora that Wells informed Brady before his interview that they didn’t need his phone. http://t.co/vNkJgAcNxa”

Important part

 

[Otis Foster]

I had limited time to search for standards governing arbitrator impartiality. I did come up with this (link below, emphasis mine), which speaks in the context of international commercial arbitration:
 
"The Non-Waivable Red List (see GS-2(c)) is an enumeration of situations, which give rise to
justifiable doubts as to the arbitrator’s impartiality and independence; i.e., in these circumstances
an objective lack of independence exists from the point of view of a reasonable third person
having knowledge of the relevant facts. It includes situations deriving from the overriding
principle that no person can be his or her own judge. Therefore, disclosure of such situations
cannot cure the conflict and the arbitrator has to decline to accept or refuse to continue to act as
an arbitrator.":
 
 I don't have time to see if there is an AAA or similar rule governing domestic labor disputes under a CBA. I have a hard time accepting that any party has totally ceded its right to basic fairness in a dispute resolution proceeding.
 
Those whose curiosity is aroused can find the full set of rules here: https://wcart.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/iba-guidlines-on-conflicts-of-interest-in-international-arbitration.pdf
 
I'll be interested if others (esp. DC Missile; Drocca; Epaz) have views on this: Can a party to the CBA irrevocably waive for its members the ability to require a modicum of impartiality in a dispute of this significance?

 

[DJnVa]

They need to go visual. Put the Feb 28th email from Wells on twitter. 

 
 
Yeah--what am I missing?
 
Wells says he doesn't need the phone just all relevant info. Brady offers to provide said info.
 
What's the disconnect?
 

 

[RedOctober3829]

 
 
Yeah--what am I missing?
 
Wells says he doesn't need the phone just all relevant info. Brady offers to provide said info.
 
What's the disconnect?
 

Once they saw that there were no damning texts between Brady and the equipment staff, they needed to concoct some bullshit to make him look guilty.

 

[Valek123]

I thought the whole court issue was the NFLPA vs. the NFL? Yee isn't going to be arguing in front of the SDNY, is he?

 
I still have in the back of my head that regardless of how this turns out that if documentation is found that shows the NFL leaked incorrect information intentionally to increase it's media and "political" side to create leverage and destroy Tom's image that this has the potential of pushing towards a defamation of character lawsuit.  IF much of the information that keeps trickling out about this might have been the case (and after Kraft's comments) I'm feeling more comfortable that Tom have a case to sue the NFL personally if the dust settles and the federal judge rules this entire thing was BS?  The NFLPA/NFL CBA may have language prohibiting it, but to me if the NFL intentionally released incorrect information as it appears and did nothing at any point to correct that I'd think that there is an opening for a lawsuit.
 
**edit** I did look back through about 30 pages when this all first came out about Tom suing the league directly, but didn't see a clear answer so please excuse me if this has been covered - these threads are monsters...
/2nd edit for an attempt at actual english(still might have failed)

 

[LuckyBen]

“@Toucherandrich: Don Yee tells Jason LaCanfora that Wells informed Brady before his interview that they didn’t need his phone. http://t.co/vNkJgAcNxa”

Important part

With that email, that would seem to be a huge ding to the Wells report and the case of Goodell. So they are pretty much lying or this all falls on Wells. The paper trail would indicate why the NFL felt so inclined to win the PR battle.

 

[amarshal2]

 
 
Yeah--what am I missing?
 
Wells says he doesn't need the phone just all relevant info. Brady offers to provide said info.
 
What's the disconnect?
 

Yee said on March 2 that Brady's team told the investigators he would not be turning over his phone or information from it, so the league knew before Brady's meeting with Wells that week that he would not turning over any copies of texts, etc., and that Brady did not decide to destroy his phone as a reaction to having to speak with Wells.
 

Emphasis, mine.

 

[DJnVa]

But they did turn over information, or at least offered it all. And the NFL said it would be impractical.
 
Is it that they didn't give it to Wells, but did give it to Goodell in the appeal?

 

[mwonow]

I just heard the CBC news report on this on the car radio. The (Washington-based) reporter read from Brady's Facebook message; that was followed by a clip from Kraft; that was folowed by a clip from Bob Costas saying that this affair is nonsense and driven by Goodell. The piece closed by saying that the case is headed to court, and that the issue "still has a lot of air."
 
If y'all get sick of the media and health care stuff down south, feel free to come up north!

 

[Ed Hillel]

 
 
Yeah--what am I missing?
 
Wells says he doesn't need the phone just all relevant info. Brady offers to provide said info.
 
What's the disconnect?
 

 
The issue is that, by "relevant info," Wells is including text messages. When Brady gets rid of the phone, he is no longer capable of turning over text messages. So I'm not seeing how this particular argument works.
 
Yee's best argument to me is that Brady told them he wasn't giving them the info, Brady was under the impression it wouldn't be a big deal, and Brady went about his activities as normal from there. That doesn't excuse Yee for not informing Brady to keep the phone intact, and I don't see anything in his explanation that would excuse his lack of doing so, honestly.

 

[Joshv02]

It isn't a declaratory judgment action.  The NFL Mgmt Council is seeking to confirm the arbitration award.  Which is odd, but that's the basis for the complaint.  Its a single count complaint for confirmation of the award.  

 

[Drocca]

Nope you're a moron. He had a bet with him and he's trying to pay it off.

Ok, good God, I was worried.

 

[Doctor G]

From Ted Wells Press Conference in May:
 
Q: Do you view Tom Brady as not cooperating fully?
 
W: Mr. Brady, the report set forth, he came to the interview, he answered every question I put to him. He did not refuse to answer any questions in terms of the back and forth between Mr. Brady and my team. He was totally cooperative.
 
At the same time, he refused to submit us to review electrweadonic data from his telephone or other instruments. Most of the key evidence in this case, as in most cases, comes from people's cell phones, and he refused to let us review the phones.
 
And I want to be crystal clear. I told Mr. Brady and his agents, I was willing not to take possession of the phone. I said, "I don't want to see any private information." I said, "Keep the phone. You and the agent, Mr. Yee, you can look at the phone. You give me documents that are responsive to this investigation and I will take your word that you have givcould bring to theen me what's responsive." And they still refused.

Wouldnt this be the reason Brady offered call logs at the appeal or was Goodell being disingenuous when he said he would consider any new info Brady coud bring to thr hearing.

 

[Walpole Joe's Neighbor]

Dan Wetzel's take is the most rational and objective and in my opinion accurate one out there so far in terms of how and why we got here.  His conclusion that the Patriots were naïve may sound well.....naïve...until you hear his reasoning and how he lays it all out.
 
http://sports.yahoo....-161339870.html  (link fixed. Thanks Section15)
 
One key part
 
It was the clearest sign of what the league was about here. Had the initial story been that some of the Patriots footballs were somewhat deflated, some weren't, the refs did a poor job of measuring, two separate and disparate pumps were used to record info, the league has no idea what naturally happens because it had never cared about this issue before and everything might be reasonably explained through Ideal Gas Law, then this isn't much of a scandal. Everyone falls asleep.
 
The NFL could have just fined the Patriots for having a game day employee take the footballs into a bathroom just before kickoff, a clear and major violation of protocol, and squashed the entire thing.
 
Instead Goodell's office put this on steroids, went for New England's throat, and Kraft and Brady either didn't see it or didn't understand it

 

[H78]

The last page of this thread hits the nail on the head and we should find a way to screenshot the whole thing, as someone suggested, and help it go viral.

 

[Section15Box113]

Here's the Wetzel link: http://sports.yahoo.com/news/how-tom-brady-and-the-patriots-walked-into-roger-goodell-s-trap-is-baffling-161339870.html

 

[CoffeeNerdness]

 
 
"Tom's phone billing record shows that nearly every communication with Jastremki was already in possession of Wells' team with exception of three texts between Tom and Jastremski on Feb. 7."

 
They rejected all the other data offered because they wanted these three texts.

 

[Reverend]

Does it? Not trying to be snarky, but not sure where this requirement is in the CBA. What's the exact language?

Likewise, Roger notes that the standard is preponderance of the evidence for violation of Article 46, but I don't see that in the CBA either.

 
I had thought I had read that the CBA requires cooperation with investigations, but on looking at the CBA, there really isn't anything about investigations at all.
 
As such, I would refine my earlier comment to say that the league wants lack of cooperation with investigations itself to be included under "conduct detrimental to the integrity of, or public confidence in, the game of professional football." Or rather, to the extent that the players seem by and large to agree that some cooperation is acceptable, the issue is the scope of what is required under threat of discipline.

 

[RedOctober3829]

 
They rejected all the other data offered because they wanted these three texts.

It's very hard to believe that RG went nuclear based on three missing texts.  If he did, then he's more dumb than I thought.

 

[GeorgeCostanza]

Ok, good God, I was worried.

Are you confusing me with HomeRunBaker?

 

[MarcSullivaFan]

 
 
Yeah--what am I missing?
 
Wells says he doesn't need the phone just all relevant info. Brady offers to provide said info.
 
What's the disconnect?
 

In this case, I think it's Brady's camp that's being slippery. Yes, Wells did not want the device itself. He wanted relevant data culled by Brady's attorneys--INCLUDING the text messages that were lost when the phone was destroyed. "He didn't want the phone!" is a red herring.

 

[pappymojo]

 
 
Yeah--what am I missing?
 
Wells says he doesn't need the phone just all relevant info. Brady offers to provide said info.
 
What's the disconnect?
 

 

 

[nattysez]

It isn't a declaratory judgment action.  The NFL Mgmt Council is seeking to confirm the arbitration award.  Which is odd, but that's the basis for the complaint.  Its a single count complaint for confirmation of the award.  

You're right. I had forgotten about this procedure, which is not uncommon in big arbitration cases. I worked on a case where we had our complaint teed up so we could file the day the arbitration decision came down, as we knew the other side would refuse to pay the ordered damages until a federal court confirmed the ruling. I don't think ripeness is required beyond a arbitration decision having been issued, but it has been awhile.

 

[Otis Foster]

 
I had thought I had read that the CBA requires cooperation with investigations, but on looking at the CBA, there really isn't anything about investigations at all.
 
As such, I would refine my earlier comment to say that the league wants lack of cooperation with investigations itself to be included under "conduct detrimental to the integrity of, or public confidence in, the game of professional football." Or rather, to the extent that the players seem by and large to agree that some cooperation is acceptable, the issue is the scope of what is required under threat of discipline.

 
It's in one of the annexes, I believe. Can't recall the specifics right now.