#DFG: Canceling the Noise

[MarcSullivaFan]

In some ways, it would be a great out for the NFL and the media witch-hunters.

If you can't prove that the Patriots did something wrong, the next best thing is to have someone else to crap all over. "Poor us, we were duped by the evil Colts!"

I disagree with those who think it would have no effect on the Cheatriots narrative. I think a proven conspiracy against them is pretty much the only thing that would change that narrative.

But there is zero evidence that the Colts did any such thing. Inadvertently deflating the ball in an incompetent attempt to gauge it seems much more likely.

 

[theapportioner]

The one thing I don't get with this Colts tampering theory is the motive.
 
Would it be to try and save face in a situation where you are being totally owned by the opposing team? Obviously that didn't work out so well. Then why make the leak to Kravitz after the game?
 
The only thing that would make some sense is personal or institutional desire to fuck over the Patriots. Which would be even more astounding.
 
I agree that if Indianapolis was found to have conspired and deliberately tampered with that football to frame the Patriots, the punishment would have to be severe. Like, multiple draft picks taken away, and with the involved individuals suspended or even banned from the league.

 

[GlenMorangie]

.

 

[MarcSullivaFan]

The one thing I don't get with this Colts tampering theory is the motive.
 
Would it be to try and save face in a situation where you are being totally owned by the opposing team? Obviously that didn't work out so well. Then why make the leak to Kravitz after the game?
 
The only thing that would make some sense is personal or institutional desire to fuck over the Patriots. Which would be even more astounding.
 
I agree that if Indianapolis deliberately tampered with that football to frame the Patriots, the punishment would have to be severe. Like, multiple draft picks taken away, and with the involved individuals suspended or even banned from the league.

The motive/justification would be that the Pats have been cheating all along, so finally we're going to nail them, even if it means fabricating evidence. Because even though they're not guilty of this, they're guilty, etc.

If that's what they did, it was completely insane. I just can't believe anyone would do that. I suppose the equipment manager could have made a split second decision to let a little extra air out, but man, that's a huge risk.

 

[riboflav]

 
I think Sharks of Vegas is just hedging. Wouldn't be surprised if their "rumors" came from the Schefter interview.  Seems like another outfit trying to get noticed.
 
But I do wish that what you're saying is true.

 
Maybe. But, they've been the best reporters on this from the beginning. Nothing they've said to date has been proven wrong yet or even appears to be wrong at this point. You certainly cannot say that about 99% of the other report(ers) thus far.

 

[Hoya81]

In some ways, it would be a great out for the NFL and the media witch-hunters.

If you can't prove that the Patriots did something wrong, the next best thing is to have someone else to crap all over. "Poor us, we were duped by the evil Colts!"

I disagree with those who think it would have no effect on the Cheatriots narrative. I think a proven conspiracy against them is pretty much the only thing that would change that narrative.

But there is zero evidence that the Colts did any such thing. Inadvertently deflating the ball in an incompetent attempt to gauge it seems much more likely.

 
Especially since it would depend on the Colts somehow getting their hands on a Pats ball without causing suspicion. You'd have to hope for Patriots turnover on offense, or Brady throwing it away onto the Colts sideline. What happens if Brady doesn't get picked off?

 

[MarcSullivaFan]

 
I think Sharks of Vegas is just hedging. Wouldn't be surprised if their "rumors" came from the Schefter interview.  Seems like another outfit trying to get noticed.
 
But I do wish that what you're saying is true.

FWIW, they do have 102k followers, so this isn't Jake Welsey we're talking about. They're oddsmakers who sell betting tips.

 

[E5 Yaz]

NFL Insiders: Those good old anonymous coaches and GMs say "everyone knows the Patriots deflated the footballs" and want the commissioner to come down hard on the Patriots, but are afraid they won't because of Kraft's relationship with Goodell.
 
No mention of what Schefter said on EEI
 
ed: Schefter, fwiw, hasn't bothered to tweet what he said on EEI. 

 

[Leather]

I feel like we're on the third go-round with this story. 
 
If the pattern holds, there will be another superficially damning leak about the Patriots in a day or three.   
 
"Breaking:  Focus now on Brady's statement to the investigators.  If he lied, Pats could be looking at a new QB to start 2015!"

 

[Ed Hillel]

What's going to happen on ESPN when the actual report comes out and contradicts half the stuff they've reported? They won't be able to ignore it completely.

 

[E5 Yaz]

What's going to happen on ESPN when the actual report comes out and contradicts half the stuff they've reported? They won't be able to ignore it completely.

 
If, not when
 
... if the actual report comes out and contradicts half the stuff they've reported?

 

[Leather]

Why won't they?
 
They do not care about "truth".   

 

[MarcSullivaFan]

Seriously, when do we start writing the SOSH amicus brief?

 

[Ed Hillel]

 
If, not when
 
... if the actual report comes out and contradicts half the stuff they've reported?

So you think the NFL let one of its employees publish false information about this issue on its own website?

 

[E5 Yaz]

Why won't they?
 
They do not care about "truth".   

 
What I meant is that Ed's post assumes that the findings will exonerate the Patriots. There's still every chance that those findings won't.

 

[E5 Yaz]

So you think the NFL let one of its employees publish false information about this issue on its own website?

 
It wasn't "information." It was what he was told by an anonymous source. The source could be wrong. Almost immediately, a different league source told Florio (might have been Mort) that RapSheet's infor was wrong.
 
Look, I've been playing devil's advocate here because someone has to. Nothing would make me happier than to find out that the Colts rigged this; heck, I was the one here who looked up Ryan Grigson's background and found his ties to the Rams and Eagles.
 
But the fact remains that there are three primary things that can happen here: the Pats can be found at fault; no conclusion will be reached; or the Pats are not at fault (through science or skulduggerry). And two of those results aren't going to "clear" the Patriots in the minds of the majority football fans outside of their own fan base

 

[Stitch01]

I feel very confident in saying the Pats didn't cheat, so whatever bullshit is in that report (and it might be blah blah blah we cant prove anything but docked a third round pick meow chow) isn't going to show proof of that.
 
Nothing is going to clear the Pats outside of their own fanbase.  Don't fucking care, they can just keep rooting for their shittier football teams.

 

[ifmanis5]

What's going to happen on ESPN when the actual report comes out and contradicts half the stuff they've reported? They won't be able to ignore it completely.

Mort can just say 'hey, that's what my sources told me, I'm just passing on information that comes my way.'
It's not like Mort hasn't been wrong about something before: http://awfulannouncing.blogspot.com/2008/08/chris-mortensen-gets-another-breaking.html

 

[E5 Yaz]

I feel very confident in saying the Pats didn't cheat

 
Based on what? Honest question.
 
We don't even know by how much the balls deflated." Everything's been presumption and guesswork.
 
I'd like to believe they didn't skirt the rules. I don't see how anyone could be confident of that at this stage, however

 

[Ed Hillel]

I understand that, but my comment was more on ESPN's reporting of the facts. If they had reported 11 were under, many a few ticks, and the only ball 2 PSI under was fhe kne the Colts had, the narrative from the media would have been quite different. Rapoport's news was based on a number of sources.

 

[Stitch01]

In the face of zero evidence of wrongdoing, I take BB, Brady, and Kraft at their word based on how they've acted in the 15 years plus they've been with the team.  You can choose otherwise of course.
 
Would be pretty odd for all three parties to vehemently lie and act 100% the opposite of they way they did when Spygate happened.
 
Why do you think its likely they cheated based on zero supporting evidence?

 

[DJnVa]

 
Based on what? Honest question.

 

BB, Brady, and Kraft.
 
I mean, this is 12000 posts worth of guesses.

 

[E5 Yaz]

In the face of zero evidence of wrongdoing, I take BB, Brady, and Kraft at their word based on how they've acted in the 15 years plus they've been with the team.  You can choose otherwise of course.

 
Bad assumption on your part. I'm not choosing to disbelieve them ... I'm just waiting to see whether the actual facts emerge

 

[E5 Yaz]

 
BB, Brady, and Kraft.
 
I mean, this is 12000 posts worth of guesses.

 
Absolutely right. Since everyone is guessing, there's no way of saying with any confidence that the Patriots don't skirt the rules

 

[Stitch01]

Cant say with any confidence the Colts didn't tamper with the ball either. 
 
Cant say with any confidence any NFL game ever was played with regulation pressure footballs since they've never been measured during the game.  Might have 32 teams of cheaters. Cant say for sure.

 

[bluefenderstrat]

This is precisely what's wrong with just finding any tweet(s) from a media type, where there is no secondary media outlet also reporting the story, and starting a thread like it's some sort of fucking news story.
 
It is not fucking "Breaking," as the clueless thread-starter declared. It is one Indy reporter based off one anonymous source.
 
Jesus Fuck, there should be a fucking rule that you can't start a fucking thread unless you have a certain level of intelligence. Like those signs at Disneyworld where you can't go on the ride unless you're a certain height

 
 
This is what you said on the first day, basically calling the OP a moron for starting this thread.   Now you're intent on playing "devil's advocate".   Why?

 

[E5 Yaz]

Cant say with any confidence the Colts didn't tamper with the ball either. 

 
I didn't say that either

 

[E5 Yaz]

 
 
This is what you said on the first day, basically calling the OP a moron for starting this thread.   Now you're intent on playing "devil's advocate".   Why?

 
Guilt

 

[Stitch01]

Cool.  So we've established that we can't say with any confidence that any NFL team plays by the rules by these standards.  I agree I guess.

 

[E5 Yaz]

Cool.  So we've established that we can't say with any confidence that any NFL team plays by the rules by these standards.  I agree I guess.

 
Peronally, it's much more likely that all teams find ways around the rules

 

[Stitch01]

Well, I choose to take BB, Brady, and Kraft at their word on this one.  You can choose to think they might be blatant liars.  All good either way, to each their own, but I feel confident the Pats didn't deflate the footballs.
 
Im sure they have skirted rules before like every other team in the league ever.

 

[E5 Yaz]

You can choose to think they might be blatant liars.  

 
You really have reading comprehension issues if you think I've said this anywhere

 

[Stitch01]

Nah, I read just fine thanks for the concern.

 

[Leather]

I'm not necessarily agreeing with E5 Yaz's cautionary take, but in this matter I do subscribe to the motto: "Don't get your hopes up."
 
I'd put the odds of an exculpatory revelation lower than the odds of a trumped-up penalty.  
 
I'd put the odds of both below a finding akin to a sniveling "we can't prove wrongdoing (which doesn't mean no wrongdoing occurred)"

 

[E5 Yaz]

Nah, I read just fine thanks for the concern.

 
Evidence to the contrary

 

[Ed Hillel]

One who has not ruled out guilt/skirting the rules must also believe that there is a chance Kraft/Brady/BB are blatant liars on this matter. Does that not follow logically?

 

[Stitch01]

This all started because you asked why anyone could be confident the Pats didn't cheat.  I told you why Im confident.  Im taking BB, Brady, and Kraft at their word.  All explicitly said they looked over everything about what the Pats did and they didn't break any rule.  I can choose to believe them.  There is as much hard evidence that the Pats cheated as there is that the Colts cheated. You can choose to believe they might be lying.  Maybe I'll be proven naïve.  Its not that hard to follow the logic.  It has nothing to do with what other fans think of the Patriots or being exonerated and apologized to by Goodell or whatever. 
 
Zero evidence of cheating so far, Pats brass says they didn't cheat, when they did violate a rule under Spygate they immediately owned up to it and apologized.
 
Not sure why you decided to get your jollies playing devils advocate then get pissy about it, but all good either way.

 

[Reverend]

It wasn't "information." It was what he was told by an anonymous source. The source could be wrong. Almost immediately, a different league source told Florio (might have been Mort) that RapSheet's infor was wrong.
 
Look, I've been playing devil's advocate here because someone has to. Nothing would make me happier than to find out that the Colts rigged this; heck, I was the one here who looked up Ryan Grigson's background and found his ties to the Rams and Eagles.
 
But the fact remains that there are three primary things that can happen here: the Pats can be found at fault; no conclusion will be reached; or the Pats are not at fault (through science or skulduggerry). And two of those results aren't going to "clear" the Patriots in the minds of the majority football fans outside of their own fan base

You care about epistemic integrity!!

 

[Tito's Pullover]

I do not understand why everyone is going after E5 Yaz on this one.
 
His overall tone has been "let's see wait and see what facts are revealed."  Anybody who published an article to that effect in the last two weeks would have been placed on the whitelist in a matter of seconds.
 
And we've quoted his page 1 post about this being a bullshit issue to prove... what, exactly?  All that does is provide further evidence that there's no axe to grind here.
 
Yaz is raising honest questions.  If the media were approaching this issue the way he has in the last several pages, I might even give them the respect of calling what they do "journalism".

 

[Stitch01]

Im not going after him, he asked why I was confident the Pats didn't cheat and I told him.  BB, Kraft, and Brady all went all-in and said no one in the Pats organization cheated.  They certainly could be lying, Im choosing to believe them in light of zero facts to the contrary.

 

[CR67dream]

Im not going after him, he asked why I was confident the Pats didn't cheat and I told him.  BB, Kraft, and Brady all went all-in and said no one in the Pats organization cheated.  They certainly could be lying, Im choosing to believe them in light of zero facts to the contrary.

And beyond zero facts to the contrary, the consequences of them lying and going all in as they have would be ridiculously enormous and I don't believe for a second they would set themselves up for that. I said it when Belichick had his Saturday press conference and I'll say it again: there is now way, no how that there is anything to be found here. Kraft's comments off the plane in Phoenix only make me more confident of that. Yaz asked why anyone could feel confident. That's why. If folks want to keep themselves worked up over the possibility that there's some sort of smoking gun, it's no skin off my nose, but to say there is no reason for confidence is just ignorance or being willfully obtuse.  
 
Edit: And I don't give two fucks what fans of other teams or idiots in the media think about it if all we get is a "we don't know what happened" from the NFL. Why should I? Why should any of us? Are we that fucking insecure that we need those idiots to like us? Fuck 'em. 

 

[Tito's Pullover]

But really, that's the equivalent of sending the jury out to reach a verdict after only one side has presented their case.  The NFL has not presented an "official" case yet.  The leaks are so contradictory, none of them can be believed at this point.
 
I mean, we had a little 5 page run here where people were saying Kraft needs to get out in front of this and fire Belichick, that we'd be okay with a $500,000 fine and a loss of a 3rd round pick.  That was before anyone from the Patriots spoke about the issue, and at a time where we knew literally ZERO facts (all leaks that have been contradicted several different ways).  I'd say "wait and see" is a significant improvement.
 
It could turn out that the balls were all deflated by 2+ psi, that the ball attendant was Mark Henderson, and he went into the bathroom for 15 minutes (not 90 seconds) and that a needle and pressure gauge were found taped to the underside of the sink, and that he acted alone except for knowing that Brady "likes 'em soft".  It could also turn out that the balls were underinflated by less than a half PSI except for the intercepted ball, and there is video tape of Mark Brunell, Jim Irsay, and Charles Haley deflating the intercepted ball on the Colts sideline while smoking cigars and laughing like cartoon villains.  That's the range of possibilities we're dealing with here.

 

[ivanvamp]

How many *confirmed* facts do we actually have?  
 
It seems to me that what we really have is a bunch of what would charitably be called gossip.  And then from that gossip, people making all kinds of assumptions.

 

[nighthob]

The one thing I don't get with this Colts tampering theory is the motive.
 
Would it be to try and save face in a situation where you are being totally owned by the opposing team? Obviously that didn't work out so well. Then why make the leak to Kravitz after the game?

Because you're Jimmy Irsay and you stopped thinking clearly about eight Makers Marks ago?

 

[SumnerH]

How many *confirmed* facts do we actually have?  

 
I have a well-connected inside source who can confirm that the Patriots did, in fact, use actual footballs during the Colts game.

 

[lexrageorge]

Why I'm confident we can say the Pats did not tamper with the balls:
 
There are only 3 things we know for sure:  (1)  some balls were found to be below 12.5 psi; and (2) the Pats vehemently denied tampering with the footballs, with even Kraft publicly calling for an apology from the NFL.  What we also know is that there are reasonable explanations, based on science, for the balls to have been below 12.5 psi at halftime; and (3) people involved were leaking information, which in one case was a deliberate attempt to cast the Pats as cheaters (i.e., the so-called ball attendant bathroom break). 
 
The conjecture from the media has ranged all over the place from 11 of 12 balls being 2 psi under to just one ball.  Unless and until there's a credible report that indicates tampering, I believe the Pats should get the full benefit of the doubt here.  Any other position is simply ill informed.  
 
There is one other thing we know for sure:  no matter what the final NFL report claims, the anti-Pats contingent and Jets fans will not be happy with anything less than a dissolution of the entire franchise and the forfeiting of all 4 Lombardi's, and even then they will still say the Pats got off easy.  But that is not a constituency that should matter to anyone. 

 

[JimBoSox9]

If the rumor turns out to be true, it will prove that my 7 year old was right all along.  A couple days into the "scandal" he adamantly claimed that the Colts did it.
 
Perhaps I should have him interview for an NFL league office job?

Thank you so much for interviewing, Lil Slim. We think you'd do a fantastic job for us, but frankly between your resume and credentials you're more than slightly overqualified for the job and we don't think we could retain you once the economy turns around.

 

[geoduck no quahog]

The only confirmed facts in this case are the Laws of Physics.
 
What we've learned is:
 
1. If a football is inflated indoors (heated) to 12.5 psi on a cold day (< 70 degrees F), it must be less than 12.5 psi after acclimating to the field. Cheat.
 
2. If a football is inflated indoors (air conditioned) to 13.5 psi on a hot day (>80 degrees F), it must be more than 13.5 psi after acclimating to the field. Cheat.
 
3. If a football deflates in the woods, does anyone feel it?

 

[JimBoSox9]

 
Edit: And I don't give two fucks what fans of other teams or idiots in the media think about it if all we get is a "we don't know what happened" from the NFL. Why should I? Why should any of us? Are we that fucking insecure that we need those idiots to like us? Fuck 'em. 

Maybe I'm just not as good at ignoring the noise as you are. It's about not having to deal with a certain volume of garbage. It's about the percentage of my conversations about football where I need to recite the same damn talking points over and over and over. it gets annoying, no different from when I was sitting in a call center telling a customer where the save button is for the 100th time. I don't care because it affects what I think, I care because I just want to stop being forced to argue against it or sit there and listen to it.

And, for a bonus, there is one thing that does chap my ass a lil extra. I'd put Belichick's integrity up against any head coach or anyone in the league office. And I'd win. I've never heard him do a song and dance to the media because he wants to get an indicted All-Pro in the lineup. I've never heard of him being less than forthright about the situation even in his coldest contract moves. I've never seen him put a player in the doghouse for personal reasons. I've never seen him block a coordinator from a better job opening. Turn a blind eye to abusive racism in his locker room? Laughable. The man has a sort of professional integrity that is commonplace in offices of all industries, but is utterly alien to the unique profession of Football Head Coach. Compared to your average HC or league suit, not only is he not Belicheat, he likely grades out on a relative scale as a white fucking knight. It's 110% been driven from day one by petty sore losers and butthurt media, and for seven years they've been winning the narrative battle. It's fucking infuriating.

 

[dhellers]

Maybe I'm just not as good at ignoring the noise as you are. It's about not having to deal with a certain volume of garbage. It's about the percentage of my conversations about football where I need to recite the same damn talking points over and over and over. it gets annoying, no different from when I was sitting in a call center telling a customer where the save button is for the 100th time. I don't care because it affects what I think, I care because I just want to stop being forced to argue against it or sit there and listen to it.

And, for a bonus, there is one thing that does chap my ass a lil extra. I'd put Belichick's integrity up against any head coach or anyone in the league office. And I'd win. I've never heard him do a song and dance to the media because he wants to get an indicted All-Pro in the lineup. I've never heard of him being less than forthright about the situation even in his coldest contract moves. I've never seen him put a player in the doghouse for personal reasons. I've never seen him block a coordinator from a better job opening. Turn a blind eye to abusive racism in his locker room? Laughable. The man has a sort of professional integrity that is commonplace in offices of all industries, but is utterly alien to the unique profession of Football Head Coach. Compared to your average HC or league suit, not only is he not Belicheat, he likely grades out on a relative scale as a white fucking knight. It's 110% been driven from day one by petty sore losers and butthurt media, and for seven years they've been winning the narrative battle. It's fucking infuriating.

 
Well put. I would add that he may be a cold hearted sob, but who in pro football isn't.  And it is interesting that many players  (Blount, Branch, etc) seem quite happy to come back and play for the Patriots.