Jaylen Brown, Year 7

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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At the end of the day, finding high-end talent and keeping them is the hardest thing to do in basketball. They have one of those guys now and wouldn't let him go in order to quibble over money. It just doesn't happen. Burden of proof is on anyone who thinks that the Celtics won't offer Jaylen every dollar available under the CBA in order to retain his services.
I don't normally join the pitchfork and torches crowd that files in after every loss, most close wins and essentially stands in heightened state of "I told y'all these people don't know what they are doing!!" even when things are going well. However if the Cs let a supermax eligible Jaylen walk, I am fighting my way to the front of that angry mob
 

Deathofthebambino

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I don't normally join the pitchfork and torches crowd that files in after every loss, most close wins and essentially stands in heightened state of "I told y'all these people don't know what they are doing!!" even when things are going well. However if the Cs let a supermax eligible Jaylen walk, I am fighting my way to the front of that angry mob
You'll have a serious fight on your hands with an overweight, balding, unathletic lawyer, but I'll also have @tbb345 with me.
 

RorschachsMask

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I wouldn’t be a fan of paying Jaylen that much, tbh. That said, if he makes all nba, there is a less than zero percent chance that they wouldn’t offer it to him, would be bad asset management.
 

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You'll have a serious fight on your hands with an overweight, balding, unathletic lawyer, but I'll also have @tbb345 with me.
My guess is that we'd have to Royal Rumble with most here.

I will just reiterate that the NBA seems to have massive player movement every few years. I'd probably peg the odds of both Brown and Tatum playing elsewhere in a few seasons much higher than most here, all the while hoping I am wrong (my base case is that Tatum will remain while Jaylen is obviously a bigger risk to move on). In short there is only one banner to focus on and its for this year.
 
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Auger34

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The difference is because of the weird supermax rules, the truth is the Celtics front office's best financial interest is for Jaylen NOT to make All-NBA, which is what makes the situation awkward. Morey has nothing to lose with Embiid winning MVP, he's already given Joel the supermax.
You are right but this would be the very definition of the Celtics being penny wise and pound foolish. Let’s hope that’s not their calculus
 

NomarsFool

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I think the next contract is a no-brainer. The contract after that, I'm actually not sure - because I think those have very often turned out not so great, but it still seems like teams keep on making them.
 

RorschachsMask

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If Jaylen makes all nba, he’s eligible for I believe 5/290. That in itself is a little scary for me lol, but it’s compounded by the fact that Tatum is eligible for 5/298 when he makes all nba this season.

I know the cap is going to be rising and all, but team building won’t be the easiest when you have two players combining for 118 million a year. You still absolutely offer it if he does make all nba, because even if Jaylen were to ask out eventually or the team wanted to move on for whatever reason, it’s not like the contract would be hard to move, and it would be a huge return.
 

HomeRunBaker

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It's only those that are bearish on Jaylen that are suggesting that this is a possibility. Or contrarians.

edit: that's not fair. There's a subset of people who think that Celtics ownership is cheap for some reason. Them too.
I don’t think it’s necessarily either. None of us are behind the scenes or know Jaylen’s physicals but there is a world where he’s on the market and we get a ginormous return for him that wouldn’t fit either the Jaylen-bears or the Wyc-cheap narratives.

Personaly I’d have that door open as I’m not sure about paying my #2 guy a $60m AAV deal. It is FAR from a no-brainer and I’ve been a Jaylen guy since before the draft.
 

benhogan

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Wyc will gladly pay Brown/Tatum the Super MAX. The cash flows from the TV contract alone will cover the freight. Plus Wyc's family got into the C's at such a low price it's monopoly money at this point.

You pay 25 & 26-year-olds for their peak years. It's a good bet they will be better over the next 5 seasons. They are long, lean, athletic WINGs that should age well.

Even though NBA teams justify it, I would push back on MAXing:
1. Centers approaching 30
2. Shrimpy PGs with knee issues
3. 32 & overs not named Bron, Curry (or eventually Giannis)
4. Offense-only players on crappy teams
5. Out-of-shape, reckless youngsters
 

lexrageorge

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Meanwhile, JB7 is hinting that some of his comments were perhaps taken out of context, although he's not willing to elaborate much further than that:

https://www.boston.com/sports/boston-celtics/2023/03/22/jaylen-brown-celtics-free-agency-2024-future/

"I think sometimes when people write articles, they get taken out of context at times, especially when writers have their own agendas or whatever. For me personally, thinking about clarifying things that have been recently said. But other than that, I’m focused on my team. I’m focused on playing basketball and focused on winning games.”
 

benhogan

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The problem with that is Paul George, Lebron, KD votes don't matter to Jaylen.

You can either be a guard or a forward. By all accounts, Jaylen will be listed as a guard, so there are only 6 spots up for grabs. So he needs to beat out FIVE of the following to get an All NBA nod at guard: Curry, Kyrie, Doncic, Trae Young, Booker, Mitchell, SGA, Halliburton, Morant, Lillard and Fox.

I think the centers are probably already set between Jokic, Embiid and AD/KAT.

That leaves the 6 forward spots. You have Lebron, KD, Tatum, Kawhi, George, Butler, Maarkkanen, Adebayo, Siakam, DeRozen...

The path for Jaylen to get All-NBA is almost solely contingent on them making him a forward, instead of a guard. @benhogan has it exactly right. Jaylen is seen as a #2 around the league, but he's simply not. White/Smart are both starting, and have been for a LONG, long time, and when one of them comes out, Brogdon goes in.

Jaylen Brown is almost always a 3 on the floor, and as a result, he should be a forward. This is what fucked Tatum previously, and the C's need to get out on front of this and campaign for him, both to end this shit about the KD Trade talks, and to make sure one of their players doesn't get fucked again (although from a financial standpoint, it's against their interests). If they start doing that, we can put to bed some of the "I realize it's just a business to the organization" stuff we keep hearing welling up.
TOP6 Guard competition is brutal. I'd add Anthony Edwards to that list

Curry & Booker will get their games played totals up to around 55-60 by the end of the season.

TOP6 Forward competition:
Tatum & Giannis are locks

Bron, Durant, Zion, & Kawhi have been injured/missed many games. All are below 50 games played.

That leaves 4 spots: Jaylen would be battling these players: Butler, Markkanen, Paul George, DeRozan, Siakam, Randle

As a Forward, there is an outside chance Jaylen gets 2nd team, especially if games played & POINTZ weighs heavily.

IF the Celtics Mgmt really wants Jaylen Brown to remain a Celtic they will campaign for Jaylen Brown FORWARD.
If they act like potted plants that means they don't want to pay him the Super MAX and may look to deal him this summer.
 

RorschachsMask

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He very well may be eligible at both guard and forward IMO, which could lead to a split vote scenario like Tatum a few years ago.
 

RorschachsMask

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Jaylen was listed as a F in last years voting fwiw and I have no idea if that’s worth anything or not.
He clearly should be in there as a forward, but for the all star game they listed him as a guard. I don’t even know if a media campaign for him at forward is something that would work, the nba is going to do whatever they do.
 

lexrageorge

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He clearly should be in there as a forward, but for the all star game they listed him as a guard. I don’t even know if a media campaign for him at forward is something that would work, the nba is going to do whatever they do.
I believe voters decide the position when they cast their ballots for a player, so it's not really up to the NBA. How these random assortment of sportswriters and broadcasters would react to the Celtics pushing JB7 as a forward is unclear; it's a group notorious for getting locked into opinions and making arbitrary decisions. The reality is that players that have appeared in fewer than 55 games will still get votes for some reason.
 

benhogan

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He clearly should be in there as a forward, but for the all star game they listed him as a guard. I don’t even know if a media campaign for him at forward is something that would work, the nba is going to do whatever they do.
The media/reporters are the ones who vote. It's up to them.

An aggressive campaign by the Celtics on educating the National NBA Media that Boston has not been playing Double BIG all season and Brown has played Forward would help.

PLUS it would show Jaylen Brown and the rest of the players that the Boston Celtics care about keeping them at whatever the cost.

Tatum was pissed about it. Players & Agents certainly understand that Wyc & Co were the direct beneficiaries of that $25MM underpayment
 

RorschachsMask

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I believe voters decide the position when they cast their ballots for a player, so it's not really up to the NBA. How these random assortment of sportswriters and broadcasters would react to the Celtics pushing JB7 as a forward is unclear; it's a group notorious for getting locked into opinions and making arbitrary decisions. The reality is that players that have appeared in fewer than 55 games will still get votes for some reason.
The nba decides on which positions the players are eligible at, IIRC. If they are made eligible at two positions, then it’s on the media to vote for whichever position they want.

I just don’t know if the nba would make him eligible exclusively at forward based on a media campaign. But if he’s eligible at both? Maybe it’ll work some, and at the very least, it’ll show Jaylen that they want him to make it, like ben said above.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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The media/reporters are the ones who vote. It's up to them.
The nba decides on which positions the players are eligible at, IIRC. If they are made eligible at two positions, then it’s on the media to vote for whichever position they want.
From this article and this article, it looks like both of you are partially correct and the All-NBA ballot lists certain players at multiple positions. Thus JB and JT would be listed as both guard and forward (Khris Middleton was also screwed by this IIRC) and it would be up to voters to decide where to vote them.

Agree that a Cs campaign for JB as forward (like the campaign for Smart as DPOY) would create a lot of goodwill even if it could potentially be very expensive.
 

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FWIW, at the All-Star Game, the TNT crew discussed whether insufficient games played should have a significant effect on AS votes and they pretty much all agreed: Yes. Shaq in particular had a cool take which was like, “Look, I’m not gonna knock anyone for something I know I benefitted from… buuuut… so, uh…”

Obviously, voters make their own decisions, but it was instructive and cool to see how the players thought about it and how they were pretty real about it.
 

Reverend

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+1 on the Celtics decision to run a PR campaign should be an independent decision of the rest of the stuff.

Of course, as some have implied, maybe they din’t want him to earn the qualification for a Super MAX. :unsure:
 

RorschachsMask

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KD has no shot this year, he’s definitely missed too many games. LeBron on the other hand, if he plays 3-5 more games, I think he 100% gets voted in. He’s at 47 games now, and he made it last year at 56 games played. It’s stupid, and I disagree, but I can’t see them not voting him in the season he became the all time leading scorer.
 

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62509 62510

Even at forward, there's some tough competition. But some of the names mentioned here boggle me. DeRozan and Randle in particular. But rep is important.
 

Kliq

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A lot of people don't care about DARKO, is probably the reason.
 

Jimbodandy

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A lot of people don't care about DARKO, is probably the reason.
Fair. Reputation matters and in fact influences voting.

Or is this a "I don't like DARKO" post? Does LEBRON have Randle or Zion on the same level as Brown, Butler, George, and Siakam?

edit: side note, but I wish that they'd index the LEBRON database a little better or beef up their back end. Shit takes forever to come up.
edit2: answered my own question. It does.
 
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RorschachsMask

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I’d take Jaylen over Randle without hesitation, but the raw numbers he’s putting up while “leading” the Knicks to being a very good team makes him a lock, IMO. It’s part of why he made second team all nba a couple of years ago, and he’s putting up better numbers this season.
 

RorschachsMask

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Fair. Reputation matters and in fact influences voting.

Or is this a "I don't like DARKO" post? Does LEBRON have Randle or Zion on the same level as Brown, Butler, George, and Siakam?
EPM
Butler- 3rd
Zion- 18th
PG- 21st
Randle- 32nd
Jaylen- 42nd
Siakam- 49th

LEBRON
Butler- 6th
PG- 24th
Randle- 26th
Zion- 29th
Siakam- 35th
Jaylen- 68th
 

Kliq

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Fair. Reputation matters and in fact influences voting.

Or is this a "I don't like DARKO" post? Does LEBRON have Randle or Zion on the same level as Brown, Butler, George, and Siakam?

edit: side note, but I wish that they'd index the LEBRON database a little better or beef up their back end. Shit takes forever to come up.
edit2: answered my own question. It does.
DARKO gets thrown around a lot here as a definitive metric; your post where you are "boggled" by praise for a player like Randle, who scores comparatively poorly via DARKO, is an example of that.

But most media members, and my understanding teams as well, don't place an enormous amount of value in DARKO or really any singular advanced metric, I think Bowiac even mentioned earlier this year that teams have kind of gotten away from using any one metric because they are all significantly flawed.

I'm not saying that Randle doing poorly in DARKO is completely irrelevant to the discussion, but it also needs to be understood that it's definitive value is extremely limited and many very smart people in basketball are not considerate of it.
 

Jimbodandy

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DARKO gets thrown around a lot here as a definitive metric; your post where you are "boggled" by praise for a player like Randle, who scores comparatively poorly via DARKO, is an example of that.

But most media members, and my understanding teams as well, don't place an enormous amount of value in DARKO or really any singular advanced metric, I think Bowiac even mentioned earlier this year that teams have kind of gotten away from using any one metric because they are all significantly flawed.

I'm not saying that Randle doing poorly in DARKO is completely irrelevant to the discussion, but it also needs to be understood that it's definitive value is extremely limited and many very smart people in basketball are not considerate of it.
The article that was posted around a year ago showed that most smart people (and teams) aren't reliant on any one metric. All in ones aren't nearly as mature in hoop than in baseball, and even those aren't definitive.

I prefer DARKO because there's not nearly as much weird noise as the others for me. I'm boggled that Randle is in the conversation with Butler and George regardless of where Jaylen fits. Not because of DARKO. Guy plays no defense. Forget on/off numbers if you like. Randle's stocks/36 are worse than Grant Williams. Worse than Kyrie's actually.
 

Kliq

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The article that was posted around a year ago showed that most smart people (and teams) aren't reliant on any one metric. All in ones aren't nearly as mature in hoop than in baseball, and even those aren't definitive.

I prefer DARKO because there's not nearly as much weird noise as the others for me. I'm boggled that Randle is in the conversation with Butler and George regardless of where Jaylen fits. Not because of DARKO. Guy plays no defense. Forget on/off numbers if you like. Randle's stocks/36 are worse than Grant Williams. Worse than Kyrie's actually.
The case for Randle is pretty obvious though; his traditional counting averages are very good, he plays every game and leads the league in minutes played, and his team his much better than people that anticipated it would be with the Knicks having already smashed their pre-season over/under projection. In a pretty weak year for Forwards and a lot of normal names missing a lot of time, Randle has emerged as a likely candidate to snag one of the spots. Maybe the advanced metrics imply that is underserved, but that really depends on how highly the voters value those metrics.
 

TripleOT

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If the league is going to allow tens of millions of dollars in salary to be decided by media voting, it should at least have some controls in place as to what position each player is voted on. It is obviously unfair for a player to have his vote divided because he played both SG and SF.
 

benhogan

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Fair. Reputation matters and in fact influences voting.

Or is this a "I don't like DARKO" post? Does LEBRON have Randle or Zion on the same level as Brown, Butler, George, and Siakam?

edit: side note, but I wish that they'd index the LEBRON database a little better or beef up their back end. Shit takes forever to come up.
edit2: answered my own question. It does.
Among the Forwards in question, Jaylen wins on POINTZ!, everyone's favorite metric ;)

Agree that a Cs campaign for JB as forward (like the campaign for Smart as DPOY) would create a lot of goodwill even if it could potentially be very expensive.
Good thing the Celtics have people employed to do this very job. I have to believe the cost would be minimal.

The media campaign could be as simple as:
1. Brad Stevens Press Conference/10-minute statement:


a. Make it clear that Jaylen Brown is a FORWARD this season based on facts/starts/stats.
b. The Celtics believe Brown should be ALL-NBA based on his body of work (show stats)
c. The Celtics recognize that Tatum got unfairly treated by ALL-NBA voting 2 years ago & they don't want to see that happen to Brown.
d. The Celtics want Jaylen Brown to qualify for the Super MAX.
e. The Celtics want Jaylen Brown to wear Green for his entire career.

2. Brad Stevens does an exclusive 20-minute interview with JJ Redick on ESPN around the above bullet points.

We want our management to publicly show LOVE to the players. It's as simple as that.
 

jmcc5400

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Not really sure what the team could have done about Tatum. Tatum has the right to work out with whomever he pleases during the offseason, and he has the right to post it on Instagram. If Jaylen is taking offense to it, he should work it out with Tatum.

As for the trade rumors, I can see the team deciding to not respond to every single trade rumor reported by every single Gary Washburn wannabe. Especially if the team thinks those rumors were being planted by KD's agent. And Wyc did call him when the second round of trade rumors started floating around.
There's also an ongoing element of uncertainty as to whether Jaylen wants to be back. We rehashed it over the summer, but one of the appeals of a putative Durant move was the locked in years remaining on his contract (to the extent that offers certainty in today's NBA).
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Among the Forwards in question, Jaylen wins on POINTZ!, everyone's favorite metric ;)


Good thing the Celtics have people employed to do this very job. I have to believe the cost would be minimal.
I meant expensive in terms of salary. Note that one of the reasons the Cs are who the Cs are is because JB has a below-market contract; Cs saved a bunch of money on JT; Smart has a prtty reasonable contract; Horford's extension is team-friendly; and TL is on a good deal too.

But as others have noted above, it's penny-wise and pound-foolish not to do something like that.
 

NomarsFool

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In a similar vein, the NBA in general should acknowledge the fact that the game has moved to positionless basketball, and All-NBA and the All-Star game should not be decided by positions. It should just be the 5/10 best players in the league - forget about positions.
 

Auger34

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The case for Randle is pretty obvious though; his traditional counting averages are very good, he plays every game and leads the league in minutes played, and his team his much better than people that anticipated it would be with the Knicks having already smashed their pre-season over/under projection. In a pretty weak year for Forwards and a lot of normal names missing a lot of time, Randle has emerged as a likely candidate to snag one of the spots. Maybe the advanced metrics imply that is underserved, but that really depends on how highly the voters value those metrics.
Wasn’t an article posted a year or so ago where someone interviewed teams and the majority of them said that DARKO (I believe DARKO is the metric that our own bowiac created) is the best advanced stat and the one they use the most?
 

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The thing about Supermax contracts is it doesn't really retain NBA superstars, it's just a method for them to get that huge extra cash and then demand a trade elsewhere, and trying to move Jaylen on a supermax would probably be a nightmare. So that's a very serious consideration the Celtics need to make. If they think he's a flight risk, they ought to consider just moving him this offseason.
 

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The case for Randle is pretty obvious though; his traditional counting averages are very good, he plays every game and leads the league in minutes played, and his team his much better than people that anticipated it would be with the Knicks having already smashed their pre-season over/under projection. In a pretty weak year for Forwards and a lot of normal names missing a lot of time, Randle has emerged as a likely candidate to snag one of the spots. Maybe the advanced metrics imply that is underserved, but that really depends on how highly the voters value those metrics.
They don't. They don't really value defense either. Your case for why Randle might get one of the spots is completely valid. I just don't think that it's deserved.
 

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Auger34

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Among the Forwards in question, Jaylen wins on POINTZ!, everyone's favorite metric ;)


Good thing the Celtics have people employed to do this very job. I have to believe the cost would be minimal.

The media campaign could be as simple as:
1. Brad Stevens Press Conference/10-minute statement:


a. Make it clear that Jaylen Brown is a FORWARD this season based on facts/starts/stats.
b. The Celtics believe Brown should be ALL-NBA based on his body of work (show stats)
c. The Celtics recognize that Tatum got unfairly treated by ALL-NBA voting 2 years ago & they don't want to see that happen to Brown.
d. The Celtics want Jaylen Brown to qualify for the Super MAX.
e. The Celtics want Jaylen Brown to wear Green for his entire career.

2. Brad Stevens does an exclusive 20-minute interview with JJ Redick on ESPN around the above bullet points.

We want our management to publicly show LOVE to the players. It's as simple as that.
Absolutely.

It may not be logical but this organization does have a reputation that they don’t take care of their players and view them as assets more than human beings (I think IT is the root cause). Even if this was mostly about Ainge (and again I don’t agree with this view) the stench still lingers.

As bengogan put up here, it’s a matter of showing these players love and that management cares about them. It’s incredibly minimal effort and it can go a long way. I think we can all agree that Brad has done a marvelous job as an executive thus far building a team. Like it or not, this type of stuff is now part of the job description when it comes to dealing with superstars. Teams do it all of the time for ROY, MVP, All Star, etc. He needs to step up and get this done soon and I am honestly a little mystified he hasn’t started it already
 

Auger34

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The thing about Supermax contracts is it doesn't really retain NBA superstars, it's just a method for them to get that huge extra cash and then demand a trade elsewhere, and trying to move Jaylen on a supermax would probably be a nightmare. So that's a very serious consideration the Celtics need to make. If they think he's a flight risk, they ought to consider just moving him this offseason.
If Kyrie Irving can get the type of package he got in a trade recently, I no longer believe nightmare contracts exist for top 30 players
 

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If the league is going to allow tens of millions of dollars in salary to be decided by media voting, it should at least have some controls in place as to what position each player is voted on. It is obviously unfair for a player to have his vote divided because he played both SG and SF.
With the money attached to it, the fairest thing to do is just remove the positions from it entirely and make the 15 best guys eligible for the super max. There are just too many years where the 7th best guy at guard or forward is way better than the 6th best at the other position or the third center or whatever. When it’s just about awards, it’s annoying, but for these guys when it can mean tens of millions it’s a real problem.
 

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If Kyrie Irving can get the type of package he got in a trade recently, I no longer believe nightmare contracts exist for top 30 players
I suppose, though it would be better for the FO to have more options in getting his replacement, given this is a win now team and four future draft picks isn't your ideal replacement. You'd probably rather just have money in free agency plus whatever assets you can get in return.
 

BaseballJones

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In a similar vein, the NBA in general should acknowledge the fact that the game has moved to positionless basketball, and All-NBA and the All-Star game should not be decided by positions. It should just be the 5/10 best players in the league - forget about positions.
I agree. Just the best players, period. Who cares what "position" they play?
 

Auger34

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KD has no shot this year, he’s definitely missed too many games. LeBron on the other hand, if he plays 3-5 more games, I think he 100% gets voted in. He’s at 47 games now, and he made it last year at 56 games played. It’s stupid, and I disagree, but I can’t see them not voting him in the season he became the all time leading scorer.
I disagree with this. Simmons is a voter and he cited 55 games as his line of demarcation. Lowe said something similar on his pod recently. If LeBron suits up for only 3 more games, I don’t think he’s met the mark.
Playing in only 61% of your teams games is just not enough (even if you are one of the top 5 players to ever live)

let’s also not forget that the topic of playing and being available is a big hot button issue now. I wouldn’t be surprised if voters penalized players missing a lot of time more this year than they had previously
 

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I disagree with this. Simmons is a voter and he cited 55 games as his line of demarcation. Lowe said something similar on his pod recently. If LeBron suits up for only 3 more games, I don’t think he’s met the mark.
Playing in only 61% of your teams games is just not enough (even if you are one of the top 5 players to ever live)

let’s also not forget that the topic of playing and being available is a big hot button issue now. I wouldn’t be surprised if voters penalized players missing a lot of time more this year than they had previously
You have a lot more faith in the voters than i do. There’s a lot of shameless voting that goes on.
 

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I meant expensive in terms of salary. Note that one of the reasons the Cs are who the Cs are is because JB has a below-market contract; Cs saved a bunch of money on JT; Smart has a prtty reasonable contract; Horford's extension is team-friendly; and TL is on a good deal too.

But as others have noted above, it's penny-wise and pound-foolish not to do something like that.
Apologies if that came off curt

Agreed. They've benefitted from all those deals. Along with getting Tatum cheaper by not making ALL-NBA

BUT 11 years of collecting tax payouts and it's time for Wyc to go ALL IN for numerous seasons. There is ZERO indication Wyc is going cheap, in fact, he's exhibited this season that he is VERY committed to winning whatever the cost.

I've been critical of Brown's off-ball defense over the years BUT I'm utterly flabbergasted that there is any pushback on paying Jaylen Brown a Super MAX. He's still growing as a player, works his azz off in the summer, and conducts himself at the highest level.
 

RorschachsMask

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 23, 2011
6,235
Lynn
All nba voting kicks off within a week or two I believe. So if the Celtics are going to do a media push, has to be ASAP.
 

CreightonGubanich

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 13, 2006
1,406
north shore, MA
Agreed, I don't understand the hesitation. If Jaylen is Supermax eligible, they're going to offer it, and they should. There's no difference in terms of roster construction whether Jaylen's on the regular max or the supermax. They're over the cap anyway. They've got what they have in-house, and what they can trade for, they're not signing free agents for anything beyond the mid-level for the foreseeable future. The only concern is the luxury tax payments, and I think they'll pay what they need to as long as the title window is open.
 

Deathofthebambino

Drive Carefully
SoSH Member
Apr 12, 2005
42,400
If Demar Derozan is a forward for the All-NBA, then Jaylen should be as well. It's really that simple.

Derozan is a forward on a team with Zach Lavine and Ayo Dosonmu listed as guards. When Derozan misses a game, he's replaced in the lineup by Alex Caruso. Derozan leads the team in assists per game.

Jaylen is supposedly a guard on a team with Marcus Smart, Malcolm Brogdon and Derrick White. When Jaylen misses a game, he's usually replaced by Grant Williams. Jaylen is 5th on the team in assists per game.

Jaylen Brown is not a guard. He's the fucking defining example of a small forward in today's game.
 

Jimbodandy

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 31, 2006
12,294
around the way
It's a little disappointing that we're discussing whether a guy is a 2 or a 3 in 2023. It's ok not to fully embrace positionless basketball fully if you're an old timer, but wtf is the difference between a shooting guard and a small forward.