Non-Patriots Training Camp News and Notes
- Thread starter RedOctober3829
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I have very early childhood memories from when CBS routinely pumped Giants games into New England at 1:00 o'clock on Sunday afternoons.
Tarkenton was excellent. Tough as nails, durable, strong armed and slippery enough to make outstanding defenses of the day look ridiculous.
If this guy puts together a career half as good as Tarkenton's, the Browns will be fortunate.
Tarkenton was excellent. Tough as nails, durable, strong armed and slippery enough to make outstanding defenses of the day look ridiculous.
If this guy puts together a career half as good as Tarkenton's, the Browns will be fortunate.
DanoooME said:
I'm no Manzel fan (well, unless you count me rooting for the train wreck), but I don't think you can really judge him until year 2.PC Drunken Friar said:
He's going from an extremely simple playbook at TT to a fairly complex one -- even Pettine has mentioned it's "Manzel vs the playbook": http://www.ohio.com/sports/browns/browns-coach-mike-pettine-says-johnny-manziel-hasn-t-surpassed-brian-hoyer-there-is-no-clear-cut-favorite-in-quarterback-derby-1.512383
Obviously there's talent in Manzel and if he decides to blow it (whether it's through his nose or not hitting the study/film room) then it's on him. As far as his football IQ goes, it could be until next training camp to see whether he really lacks one at the NFL level.
Tony C said:
I think RG3 might be a good comp especially since he was in the Shanahan for 2 years. RG3 didnt do the 3 cone, but I think straight line speed might be the most important when they run their bootlegs and RG3 had a 4.41 40 dash compared to Manziel's 4.68 So if there an opponents DE or OLB is disciplined and carries out their assignment on the edge then Manziel might have a tough time passing and running out of that bootleg. I'm really curious to see what the guy can do because the more I look at him the more it seems as though he should just be an average QB at best who will have his career cut short because he cant take the pounding and I want to see his fall from grace.
PC Drunken Friar said:
You can say that again, according to ESPN:
McNair and Kelly never lacked intelligence on the field, and Marino also allegedly had an absolutely awful score.
DanoooME said:
If we are talking cement head off the field, yeah thats a problem. Its really hard to try to rally your team and get our O-line to want to protect you for that last drive when they are exhausted on that last drive and you were late for practice during the week and were out partying, etc There really is something unique about that position where your team has to believe in you and want to do good for you and not just themselves. Manziel has to grow up a great deal before his whole team feels that way about him.
The most damning fact for Manziel is he looks slow and unathletic when running with the ball. He was caught by Ryan Clark, for goodness sake.
ShaneTrot said:
Yup. Its like people have forgotten that a dynamic, Heisman-winning QB with amazing improvisation skills in college can be just another guy in the NFL, as the athleticism for every player is off the charts, unlike in the SEC where less than half the players go on to NFL careers.
There's someone specific I want to reference here but the name keeps bowing out of my mind. Oh well.
Manziel definitely doesn't have the explosive running ability of Griffin (or Kaepernick or Vick, who are really the other three guys on that level), who are a threat to take it 70 yards on any play. They probably won't design a lot of runs for him; he's not that guy. But his agility drills speak to his ability to make people miss and extend plays. I'd liken him more to Russell Wilson; his straight-line speed isn't quite on Wilson's level (4.68 vs Wilson's 4.55), but his agility marks are even better (6.75 3-cone vs 6.97; 4.03 shuttle vs 4.09). That's a sick 3-cone that would have ranked among the top 10 WR or CB at the Combine.wutang112878 said:
I find your wanting to see his fall from grace sad, because Johnny Football was fun as hell to watch in college and I say that as someone with no love for the maroon and white. It's a more fun NFL if he's successful. There are plenty of reasons to think he could be - good physical tools, accurate, great instincts - and plenty to think he won't - mostly the same things that plague all young QBs - reading defenses and decision-making, durability, and a healthy side-order of questions about his commitment to the game.
Super Nomario said:
Do you really think he has the passing skills to succeed as a guy who is primarily a pocket passer? Wilson is a great comp and I havent seen enough of Manziels arm but I wonder if its as strong as Wilson and how much that might be exploited if he isnt running as much as he did in college which I believe opened up a lot of space for him.
As for wanting him to fail, I just hate the guy. His ego and attitude just drives me bonkers, I just cant stand anyone with over inflated egos. But yeah the NFL is more entertaining with a successful Manziel and I'd love to watch it if he had Wilson's attitude.
Super Nomario said:
This could be said about any number of "fun as hell" college football players, be they clad in maroon and white or blue and orange.
I find the veneration of Manziel and his obviously deficient work ethic, commitment and teamwork to be puzzling. Dude isn't going to be good in the NFL if he doesn't work hard. Missing meetings, not attending "voluntary workouts" and acting like an entitled dickwad on the field isn't helping.
He probably doesn't quite have Wilson's arm, but he's got a good arm. Waldman has a couple pretty good breakdowns of Manziel here and here. There are clips of Manziel doing all the things you need an NFL-caliber pocket passer to do: manipulate safeties with his eyes, go through his progressions and hit third or fourth reads, make downfield throws with touch and accuracy, and buy time for his receivers to get open with his mobility. There are also "bad plays" (some of which worked in college) where he shows poor decision-making or ball security or response to pressure. I would say he absolutely has the physical and mental abilities to be an NFL quarterback. That's a different question from whether he gets there, and the smart money is probably on "no" for any QB prospect that's not Peyton Manning or Andrew Luck.wutang112878 said:
I don't know any of these players personally, so I try not to judge them personally unless there's something obvious (like Ray Rice this past offseason).wutang112878 said:
There aren't that many guys on the Manziel / Tebow level as far as being entertaining and unconventional.soxfan121 said:
Eric Crouch won the Heisman with a 7 TD / 10 INT ratio. His college passing numbers look like Tebow's pro passing numbers.soxfan121 said:
Super Nomario said:
WISHBONE
Eh, maybe I coulda gone with Art Schlichter instead. ;-)
And this minor digression shouldn't cloud the fact that Manziel (reportedly) is hardly working and there are fewer examples of successful, lazy QBs than there are of "entertaining, unconventional" QBs. Manziel's success or lack thereof will probably be directly attributable to his work ethic and commitment to the job. All the physical tools in the world don't make an NFL player.
John Elway and Steve Young were creative types of QB but you still need to put in the work to succeed. Being a creative QB doesn't give you the license to be lazy. I never thought much of JF as a pro-prospect, and I disagree with Waldman, because I think the kid's head is too big for his shoulders which will impede his natural ability (which is quite impressive). He needs a humbling to then succeed. YMMV.
RFD sleeper favorite DeVonte Holloman of the Cowboys (of mine and SF121) is forced to retire due to neck issues.
That's too bad -- I thought he was going to start for a long time in the league.
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2170991-dallas-cowboys-lb-devonte-holloman-forced-to-retire-due-to-neck-injury
That's too bad -- I thought he was going to start for a long time in the league.
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2170991-dallas-cowboys-lb-devonte-holloman-forced-to-retire-due-to-neck-injury
Crouch also ran for over 1100 yards and 18 TDs.
/Slips on Nebraska jersey.
/Pulls up photo taken next to Crouch's Heisman
/Lights picture of Bo Pelini on fire
/Slips on Nebraska jersey.
/Pulls up photo taken next to Crouch's Heisman
/Lights picture of Bo Pelini on fire
Super Nomario said:
That's pretty much my mantra, so am almost embarrassed that I can't help being with Wutang and SF in rooting against JF. For the same reason I rooted for Tebow -- entertaining and unconventional -- I went into the Manziel era rooting for him to prove the Jaworski-style naysayers wrong. I think he still might, as Jaworski overrates conventional QB skills, but Manziel's mug just screams privilege, entitlement, and smugness so loudly. Even if I know it's dumb to think I can know that or, even if true, ake any of this personally, somehow I still have come to hate the guy. Hey, irrationality is part of being a sports fan, I guess.
And in football terms I have been surprised by how slow he is. That said, it's probably true that escapabiity is a better attribute in a QB than RGIII-style speed, and he does have a good arm, so who knows....
On the intelligence thing, if there's one thing I've come to appreciate is how key that is for a QB. Wondlic/IQ etc aren't good barometers, so we'll have to see on the field: but he sure does come off as having Tebow level stupidity. His inability to even spit out answers to Gruden's softball questions on play calls sure seems to indicate a density that isn't just about being a rookie.
Vince Young scored a 6 on the Wondelic I recall which I believe is the lowest ANY NFL prospect has recorded. Old friend Michael Bishop had a 10.
Ward was never in an NFL camp having told every team he was going to play in the NBA unless he was a 1st round pick which he wasn't going to be. I'm assuming poster was referring to Tebow.Saints Rest said:
Denver Post reports that Broncos kicker Matt Prater has been suspended for the first 4 games of the season. It is an alcohol related violation. Prater had a DUI in 2011 and was in the substance abuse program. According to Mike Klia, it could've been a year ban but was negotiated down to 4 games with no appeal.
So that's Trevathian, Norwood, possibly Welker, and Prater all on the shelf.
So that's Trevathian, Norwood, possibly Welker, and Prater all on the shelf.
Wes Welker got concussed again.
As much as I love what he brings to the Denver offense, if he decides to retire right now, I would completely understand and applaud him.
Fantasy football players: rookie Cody Latimer might just be moving from a 4th WR on the bench to Manning's #2 wideout opposite Demaryius Thomas (and Emmanuel Sanders moves to Welker's slot role in that scenario). Latimer has flashed some promise this month, and I think he's the future at #2 WR for the team... If Welker misses time or retires, the plan gets pushed up a year.
In other Broncos news, Kicker Matt Prater is suspended 4 games for an alcohol-related offense. He had a DUI 3 yrs ago and apparently that means he gets tested for booze (?). His agent says he had beer on vacation ( grain of salt, of course) which ran him afoul of the CBA testing requirements. Gotta love another black eye for Goddell when Ray Rice gets 2 games for beating a woman and some beer in Cabo gets you 4!
Preseason Week 3 strikes again!
As much as I love what he brings to the Denver offense, if he decides to retire right now, I would completely understand and applaud him.
Fantasy football players: rookie Cody Latimer might just be moving from a 4th WR on the bench to Manning's #2 wideout opposite Demaryius Thomas (and Emmanuel Sanders moves to Welker's slot role in that scenario). Latimer has flashed some promise this month, and I think he's the future at #2 WR for the team... If Welker misses time or retires, the plan gets pushed up a year.
In other Broncos news, Kicker Matt Prater is suspended 4 games for an alcohol-related offense. He had a DUI 3 yrs ago and apparently that means he gets tested for booze (?). His agent says he had beer on vacation ( grain of salt, of course) which ran him afoul of the CBA testing requirements. Gotta love another black eye for Goddell when Ray Rice gets 2 games for beating a woman and some beer in Cabo gets you 4!
Preseason Week 3 strikes again!
At least he has his $12 Mill guaranteed--I think he already qualified for his roster bonus. Good lesson in the importance of guaranteed money.
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/08/24/panthers-cut-speedster-tiquan-underwood/
Tiquan Underwood cut.
Tiquan Underwood cut.
Welker might want to consider retiring. This is his 3rd concussion since late last fall. I love him as a player and how hard he plays the game, but he needs to think about his future after football.
Unfortunately I don't think he has the same perspective. At least he didn't before last night. This quote was before last night's concussion; curious to see if his view changes.RedOctober3829 said:
""You make yourself solid and get in the the best shape you can be," Welker said. "When I am sound and strong, it gives me that courage that I can take hits, and can go across the middle. But there are some things you can't avoid. It's kind of the game."
Bernard Pierce left yesterday's game with what looked like could be a concussion. It's a big injury if so, due to the aforementioned Ray Rice's suspension for the first two games. Pierce is officially listed as questionable for the opening game. Not sure who their #3 is behind Pierce. The hit that led to the head injury was laid by old friend, Brandon Merriweather.
Oh yeah. I forgot they drafted Talafierro. He's a stud, and I think he's probably better than Pierce right now anyway. Could be interesting to see how he plays if he gets the opportunity to start with Rice and Pierce out.
There's a better understanding of how to recover from concussions now. The question is are NFL teams going to strictly enforce a recovery behavior that might seem soft or unnecessary to laymen or are we going to see Welker interviews with bright lights shining in his eyes within the week?
RedOctober3829 said:
Sad thing is, had he held onto the fucking ball a few years ago, he has a ring and probably could walk away. But, he dropped it, still wants a ring and probably will have his brain get more mushy chasing it.
Nope, not bitter about that drop at all.
If the Patriots signed him to what he wanted, Felger would be railing against them for not knowing he'd eventually break down. Be interesting to hear his take on this tomorrow.
Wasn't it Welker who pretty clearly suffered a concussion last season but was deemed fine to return to the game? I think the league is still in something of a half-measures stage of dealing with concussions.caesarbear said:
Sadly for Wes, you can't help but think he's on the road to being the unwitting star of a 30 for 30 in twenty years.
