nvalvo said:
If it's just a suspension, then the team still takes the same Competitive Balance Tax hit.
Report: A-Rod banned through 2014?
- Thread starter mabrowndog
- Start date
If it's just a suspension, then the team still takes the same Competitive Balance Tax hit.
Sampo Gida said:
For what? Stealing evidence?
A-Rod can be criminally charged for buying illegal drugs, possessing illegal drugs, or selling illegal drugs. Without those predicate offenses pending (without the intent to charge) there's no viable prosecution for "tampering" with evidence. Sure, it's theoretically possible he'd be charged by the local authorities, but in reality it won't happen. The only way it would happen is if there was a true smoking gun.
On the other hand, if you steal/tamper/destroy evidence in the context of a civil suit, it basically just "counts against you," either through fines, or having to turn over more discovery, or allowing the jury to be told you destroyed evidence (and infer that evidence would have hurt you at trial) or, in the worst cases, having the lawsuit summarily found in favor of your opponent (because you tampered with/stole evidence).
The "stealing evidence" issue is important to baseball because it's a player actively covering up for himself and other players, which makes a mockery of the CBA/Drug Policy.
MLB is not going to send a message that it's OK, essentially, to attempt to buy off witnesses or destroy evidence. If they do that, every millionaire player who is accused of something like this in the future will simply hire thugs to intimidate witnesses and steal physical evidence. What's to lose?
Sampo Gida said:
First off, it's not traditionally conduct detrimental to the game, or going to the integrity of the game. Secondly, the type of conduct you're contemplating is usually regulated at the "club" level - if a player is a problem child, they're not going to enjoy a great career. Look at Wil Cordero in Boston. Thirdly, the players already agreed to it. If they don't like it, the union can strike over it. I doubt they're going to strike on this issue alone - they'd be in the position of arguing that buying off witnesses and destroying evidence is something that's "sort of OK to do - certainly not worthy of a lifetime ban."
There's no "slippery slope" here - engaging in an organized system to distribute drugs or destroy evidence of PED use for multiple players is clearly conduct detrimental to the game.
Heck, a 5 year ban would do the job here.
Rovin Romine said:
It's not only after he's been charged. Florida (FSA § 918.13) says it's the same third degree felony if he tampers with evidence knowing that "an investigation by a duly constituted prosecuting authority, law enforcement agency, grand jury or legislative committee of this state is pending or is about to be instituted". It doesn't look like it has to be an investigation of him, either -- an investigation into Biogenesis (aren't there already some?) should suffice.
New York (McKinney's Penal Law § 215.40) also prohibits suppressing evidence when "elieving that certain physical evidence is about to be produced or used in an official proceeding or a prospective official proceeding".
So from what it sounds like, if Alex appeals, Bud will ban him. Basically a no-win scenario for him.
I feel like the bluster from both sides is all just theatrics as they try to work out a settled agreement on punishment.
MLB is leaking "Lifetime Ban! Conduct Detrimental To The Game! If he appeals, he's banned anyway!"
Team ARod is leaking "We're prepping for an appeal! We would sue!"
Amidst all of this public crap the two sides are quite likely hammering out a deal that will ban him the rest of this year and all or part of next. Team Rod is probably trying to get the same thing Braun got and Selig is demanding he suffer longer.
MLB is leaking "Lifetime Ban! Conduct Detrimental To The Game! If he appeals, he's banned anyway!"
Team ARod is leaking "We're prepping for an appeal! We would sue!"
Amidst all of this public crap the two sides are quite likely hammering out a deal that will ban him the rest of this year and all or part of next. Team Rod is probably trying to get the same thing Braun got and Selig is demanding he suffer longer.
This is probably true. But what's interesting or complicating a potential negotiated agreement is the MFY's position and interests. Lets say ARod and MLB agree to a 150 game or therabouts suspension, and he could comeback after the '14 ASG, its quite likely that the Ys don't want him back, for 1) competitive, 2) salary cap, or 3) PR reasons. ARod coming back mid-'14 would be high theatre and a lot of fun to watch, but IMO the MFY want no part of it, but they can't publicly say so.
bankshot1 said:
all true... but aren't the MFYs concerns outside of this whole thing? I'm sure they're telling Selig 'get rid of him, please!' but in a vacuum that should have no bearing.
I don't think it is true, I actually believe the bluster in this case. I think A-Rod has refused to make a deal and MLB is trying to solidify their case as much as they can before they announce their proposed punishment (or hope that he somehow ends up with a lawyer who can convince him to try to make a deal, very doubtful).
Also I am all for conspiracy theories in general, but I don't think Selig cares at all what the Yankees or any of the other teams affected want in this case.
Also I am all for conspiracy theories in general, but I don't think Selig cares at all what the Yankees or any of the other teams affected want in this case.
But this isn't a vaccum. While Selig is the commisioner of MLB, he is employed by the owners, and answerable to the owners, for presumably, the owners benefit. I believe the Ys are well within the loop on this one, and have most likely expressed their concerns and priorities to the highest levels of MLB.86spike said:
People keep bringing up the luxury tax cap as an issue here and a reason why NY doesn't want him back despite the fact that other people have posted that his cap number would not change if he was suspended. For anyone claiming that his salary wouldn't count against the luxury tax while he's suspended can you please provide a source for this?
phrenile said:
You're absolutely correct as a matter of law.
However, I hedged my language in my post since I've never seen someone charged with Tampering without a pending investigation - since there has to be a showing that the defendant had a reasonable belief there was (or would be) an immediate investigation. (For example, you commonly see this for cases where someone throws drugs into the water/sand during a chase. The charge sticks if part of the drugs are destroyed and part are recovered. However, other cases suggest that merely making it difficult for the police to access something is not tampering.)
So technically, ARod could be charged with tampering - but as a practical matter, he really wouldn't be charged with it unless he was charged with buying/using/selling illegal drugs first. I've tried a lot of criminal cases in Miami - I know the SAO here. I'd be shocked if they went after a tampering charge in isolation.
glennhoffmania said:
I think the confusion comes from the fact that the treatment appears to be different based on why the player is suspended. from what phrenile posted above, salary counts as long as the player is on the active list and the player is on the active list if he is placed on disciplinary suspension by the club or commissioner or is on the disabled list. this would be something like being suspended for involvement in a brawl or something similar. However, players suspended for PED use do not stay on the active list (ie 25 man roster). the policy specifically says they can be replaced.
www.bizofbaseball.com today states that the amounts owed under a suspension would NOT count towards CBT.
I'm not convinced either way yet since nobody seems to be able to quote the relevant portion of the rules that would cover it.
I think it's smart. The teams have probably been notified who is on the list and by not releasing the names publicly, they allow the teams who are affected by the bans to maintain some leverage during negotiations. Not only would they be losing a player, they would be trading from a position of weakness.
Operating on the assumption that teams know their players who are getting banned, it would be really shady business practice to trade them.
jon abbey said:
You're probably right. I just don't think the trade deadline matters here because it's so likely that either all or the affected teams know exactly who is getting banned.
Doesn't everyone already know who's on the Biogenesis list? Isn't it just a question of which ones face punishment?
Here is the latest list of names, looks like Colon and Melky get off with time served:
"MLB is working with all the affected players and appears likely to suspend or have an agreement to suspend the other Biogenesis-linked players who have never previously been suspended for 50 games, though it's remotely possible one or two others could get more than 50. Word is, though, that three players on the Biogenesis dockets -- Athletics pitcher Bartolo Colon, Blue Jays outfielder Melky Cabrera and Padres catcher Yasmani Grandal -- aren't expected to be punished further as they are apparently considered to have done their time with suspensions served for failed tests in 2012.
A-Rod is the headline-grabbing name, but the other players with 50-game bans looming are Rangers outfielder Nelson Cruz, Tigers shortstop Jhonny Peralta, Mariners catcher Jesus Montero, Yankees catcher Francisco Cervelli, Padres shortstop Everth Cabrera and minor leaguers Fernando Martinez, Fautino de los Santos, Cesar Puello and Norbeto Martin."
http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/blog/jon-heyman/22943317/mlb-seeks-biggest-ped-ban-it-can-get-on-arod-who-promises-fight
"MLB is working with all the affected players and appears likely to suspend or have an agreement to suspend the other Biogenesis-linked players who have never previously been suspended for 50 games, though it's remotely possible one or two others could get more than 50. Word is, though, that three players on the Biogenesis dockets -- Athletics pitcher Bartolo Colon, Blue Jays outfielder Melky Cabrera and Padres catcher Yasmani Grandal -- aren't expected to be punished further as they are apparently considered to have done their time with suspensions served for failed tests in 2012.
A-Rod is the headline-grabbing name, but the other players with 50-game bans looming are Rangers outfielder Nelson Cruz, Tigers shortstop Jhonny Peralta, Mariners catcher Jesus Montero, Yankees catcher Francisco Cervelli, Padres shortstop Everth Cabrera and minor leaguers Fernando Martinez, Fautino de los Santos, Cesar Puello and Norbeto Martin."
http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/blog/jon-heyman/22943317/mlb-seeks-biggest-ped-ban-it-can-get-on-arod-who-promises-fight
Based on the latest news that ARod may well have been recruiting people to Biogenesis, you have to think that helps 'splain the preponderance of Yankees and ex-Yankees on that list.
It also seems to suggest that ARod (and his teammates) were using during the title run in '09.
It also seems to suggest that ARod (and his teammates) were using during the title run in '09.
With his lifestyle, the high stakes poker and blow parties at The Plaza held by Molly Bloom? I imagine a great deal of his wealth went up his nose and into the pockets of better poker players.Infield Infidel said:
BunnzMcGinty said:
I don't think you have a concept of how much money A*Rod has earned in his career. He could've blown as much money as Antoine Walker and Scottie Pippen combined and he'd still be set for life.
Which is not to say he shouldn't do whatever is necessary to compel the MFY to honor their contractual obligations to him.
Van Everyman said:
On the recruitment angle it comes to mind the recently departed Iggy was a work out partner of his the offseason before last
http://blog.masslive.com/redsoxmonster/2011/02/red_sox_prospect_jose_iglesias.html
And with 4 boxes of records missing/stolen, its likely not all of the names of Biogenesis clients have come out, and maybe they never will, but internally some names may have cropped up in the investigation and while no action can be taken those players will face additional scrutiny/testing.
I know this was a joke, but it got me thinking. If the Yanks really wanted to get rid of him, how much would they pay to get him out of town via a trade? Say some team like the A's, Twins, Marlins or Rays, a team that doesn't spend much, were to take him but have the Yankees pay 80-90% of his deal. Would a team do that? Would the Yanks do that?Foulkey Reese said:
terrynever said:
Well, Biogenesis did service the Miami area which is a major hub for Latinos. Braun is a white guy but went to the University of Miami so may still have ties there.
I assume there is a major supplier servicing players outside the Miami connection. No way Biogenesis is the sole supplier.
Makes you wonder about the positive tests though, have they been targeting Biogenesis clients even before the leak.or was Bosch providing an inferior product? Manny was busted with a prescription for HCG issued by Bosch's father. That may have triggered the Biogenesis scrutiny that led to it all coming out. Dunno.
I'm trying to think of a athlete who's made more money than A-Rod. Just spitballing, Jordan, Kobe, Beckham, maybe Shaq and KG.maufman said:
Infield Infidel said:
The better question is whether or not they would drop him to save money on the incentives of the contract. Correct me if I'm wrong but if they drop him, he wouldn't be able to go to another team to achieve those same bonuses, would he?
I know this was a joke, but it got me thinking. If the Yanks really wanted to get rid of him, how much would they pay to get him out of town via a trade? Say some team like the A's, Twins, Marlins or Rays, a team that doesn't spend much, were to take him but have the Yankees pay 80-90% of his deal. Would a team do that? Would the Yanks do that?
Take that in a little different direction. Supposing that he is banned for life, but that they are not off the hook for luxury cap purposes, what would the Yankees give up to foist the "contract" on another team?
Take that in a little different direction. Supposing that he is banned for life, but that they are not off the hook for luxury cap purposes, what would the Yankees give up to foist the "contract" on another team?
A-Rod doesn't make money in endorsements, which is where most of the money is for Tiger, among others.Infield Infidel said:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-06-07/tiger-back-on-top-of-forbes-sports-earnings-list/4739820
terrynever said:
But that's only one year. This list seems better, and the only athletes ahead of him are either retired or golfers. This one isn't bad either. http://www.topendsports.com/world/lists/earnings/forbes-index.htm Tiger blows everyone away.
Very cool. I notice the first survey has Alex making $33M a year but he's down to around $28M this year as the contract was frontloaded a bit. He winds down to $21M near the end. The overriding question with his net worth is how much money he has to pay the lawyers to fight a lifetime ban. That fight could drag on for years. As someone just tweeted, this ends with Alex signing autographs in Vegas next to Pete Rose.Infield Infidel said:
http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/mlb/2013/07/31/alex-rodriguez-suspended-lifetime-suspension-biogenesis/2606319/
Looks like a lifetime ban may be coming by Friday
MLB "PREPARED" to ban A-Rod for life, suspend eight others...
Attention-grabbing headline, for sure. Any actual NEWS, though?
EDIT: Missed it by THAT much...
Attention-grabbing headline, for sure. Any actual NEWS, though?
EDIT: Missed it by THAT much...
terrynever said:
He made 6 million a year as early as 2009, since then it has slowly dwindled to under 1 million today
http://www.businessinsider.com/the-winners-and-losers-of-sports-in-2010-2010-12?op=1
Infield Infidel said:
Interesting that Bud Selig is ahead of Arod in net worth, although as a former owner and someone making over 20 million a year as commissioner I guess it should not be a surprise.
BTW, to go back to the issue of whether ARod's contract would count against the CBT, this article - http://www.heraldnet.com/article/20130730/SPORTS/130739991 - quotes "MLB" to say that ARod's contract would not count.
Having looked at the CBA, there is certain evidence that is true - only players on the active list count towards the CBT and it appears that players who are suspended pursuant to the Joint Drug Agreement are placed on some kind of restricted list.
Interestingly enough, however, one thing that isn't clear is what happens if ARod is suspended under the "best interests of baseball" clause. I suspect, though, MLB is going to rule that the salary isn't going to count.
More's the pity.
Having looked at the CBA, there is certain evidence that is true - only players on the active list count towards the CBT and it appears that players who are suspended pursuant to the Joint Drug Agreement are placed on some kind of restricted list.
Interestingly enough, however, one thing that isn't clear is what happens if ARod is suspended under the "best interests of baseball" clause. I suspect, though, MLB is going to rule that the salary isn't going to count.
More's the pity.
What an incredible gift Selig is handing down to the Yankees organization. Absolutely incredible. Hope this doomsday scenario doesn't play out.
By the way, they're talking Friday, but isn't Alex able to play on 8/1 with NY? Can he come back tomorrow?
By the way, they're talking Friday, but isn't Alex able to play on 8/1 with NY? Can he come back tomorrow?
StuckOnYouk said:
Last I heard he was scheduled for a minor league game, but that was before this latest news broke.
That could be his farewell if these reports are true, the opposing pitchers should just throw at him every single time, let them keep getting ejected.
Edit: It's just a simulated game, not an actual one, ah well.
Not sure if this report is before or after the attempted lifetime ban one:
http://espn.go.com/new-york/story/_/id/9526910/alex-rodriguez-representatives-negotiating-possible-settlement-lengthy-suspension-according-source?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter
http://espn.go.com/new-york/story/_/id/9526910/alex-rodriguez-representatives-negotiating-possible-settlement-lengthy-suspension-according-source?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter
Question, can A-Rod sue MLB if Selig imposes a lifetime ban?
Probably a stupid question, but figured I'd ask.
Probably a stupid question, but figured I'd ask.
He could probably try to sue for salary, but he can't sue to get back into baseball.StuckOnYouk said: