You are supposed to wait for him to clear closer to the sideline - you don't throw that the second he breaks.
The Michael McCorkle "Mac" Jones Thread
- Thread starter SeoulSoxFan
- Start date
Think about this, we're hoping a 2nd round pick taken 2 years ago that has less catches in the NFL than guys like Greg Dulcich who was taken in the same draft, is going to save our WR room. Oh, and a 6th rounder.
There is plenty of evidence guys are open, but Mac doesnt read quick enough and get the ball out quick enough.
https://x.com/chatham58/status/1709213901491949762?s=20
I hate still frame analysis of football. A receiver can look "open" for a split second but really not be.
Who knows if that's the case here. And no one is suggesting Mac is great at anticipating throws. But one context-less picture doesn't prove anything IMHO.
I don't think it's just that. Is taking issue with how we measure, what's open and what's not and arguing based on his players perspective that if you look at the film there are lots of occasions where receivers are running open but Jones does not simply get the ball out quick enough.
Also, lots of people in this threat have made the case. Since Jones has drafted that no one is open, he hasn't been given the weapons, and so forth. as far back as early last year, it has been expressed by analyst on twitter and elsewhere that actually people were Open a lot more than we were discussing and if they were real issues with Jones's processing and ability to get the ball out quickly with some zip on it.
Also, lots of people in this threat have made the case. Since Jones has drafted that no one is open, he hasn't been given the weapons, and so forth. as far back as early last year, it has been expressed by analyst on twitter and elsewhere that actually people were Open a lot more than we were discussing and if they were real issues with Jones's processing and ability to get the ball out quickly with some zip on it.
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I think there is enough evidence to say that our WRs don't get great separation... of course plenty of really productive guys also don't get separation.
More separation would make it easier on Mac. On the other hand, Mac rarely throws guys open, and he rarely makes the kind of keyhole throws some QBs can where 1.5 yards of separation is plenty.
Well, he definitely has an offensive lineman wide the fuck open, and two guys in his grill, but we wonder why he's making throws off his back foot.
Can you explain why, when given ample time, he's still throwing off his back foot? Nobody is begrudging him for throws when he has someone in his kitchen (although, there's plenty of argument to be made about his pocket awareness and movement). He's consistently off balance, even when he's clean.
I know you want to stick up for the guy and we are literally at opposite ends of the spectrum on him, but I've at least been measured and not completely blind, he's had some good games, good drives, etc. I just don't know how you can continue to watch him and make excuses for the sloppiness of his play and mechanics. He's the problem.
I don’t remember the play but the first thing I saw, and he was crap Sunday, is he’s about to get murdered by two free runners. It’s a weird picture to prove the point Mac was garbage.
If he does make those keyhole throws, our receivers also rarely come down with them.
I mean, if Mac makes this throw, it will fall incomplete 10 times out of 10 with his receivers, and people will be screaming left and right about how he can't throw it 30 yards.
But Zach Wilson makes this throw, Lazard makes a great play and everyone is talking about how Zach Wilson figured something out:
https://www.newyorkjets.com/video/highlight-zach-wilson-throws-deep-to-allen-lazard-for-a-39-yard-gain
As someone who has also been on the opposite end of the spectrum from you on this, I have moved closer to you on that spectrum after reading a lot of the back and forth in here over recent weeks. That said, I honestly think this debate would more or less cease to exist if your last sentence was written the way I edited it.
Are you looking at that picture? Or the stats that show he was under pressure 50% of the time he dropped back? There is literally an offensive lineman standing in no man's land on that screen shot, blocking nobody, looking at nobody, while two guys are coming right up the gut.
Yes, his mechanics are bad. No, he's not a top 10 quarterback. Yes, he played awful on Sunday. But at some point, we have to recognize that when the guys around you are shit, and you're already down 21-3, you're bound to start pressing. They can't run the ball, they can't stop 4 men from getting home, opponents never have to blitz, we can't go under center because our line can't hold up long enough, and our receivers have trouble getting open until it's literally too late in the play and Mac has to make an early decision.
Look at Daniel Jones last night. That's what shit looks like when you have very little at the skill positions, and a terrible offensive line. That's a team that made the playoffs last year, and folks were all infatuated with his "come from behind" wins in the 4th quarter, or something.
His mechanics and footwork are shit even on the occasions where there is no pressure.
He may be Bledsoe'd at this point, broken beyond repair. And all teams need their QB to be able to make at least a few plays under duress or when the situation isn't ideal. Mac isn't able to do that. He has to have everything around him go perfectly to have any chance of success and that's simply not the way football works.
He may be Bledsoe'd at this point, broken beyond repair. And all teams need their QB to be able to make at least a few plays under duress or when the situation isn't ideal. Mac isn't able to do that. He has to have everything around him go perfectly to have any chance of success and that's simply not the way football works.
Yep - thats my point. I am not a 100% one or the other, but plenty of QB could make a lot more with this lineup.
When the offensive line held up in week 1 for the most part, Mac's mechanics looked just fine, IMO. He's made a ton of throws under pressure in the past 3 years, mostly because he's almost always under pressure.
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxfHfKHT1XI
But isn't that the crux of the argument? I'll argue that he's the central problem until I'm blue in the face, others will disagree. I'm of the mind that even a competent QB can elevate the team around him and great QBs consistently do it. Mac has not once proven that. It's a chicken and egg problem that can't be solved, there are too many variables to suss out, but it's very clear in my mind that Mac is making those around him worse. They would not look nearly as bad with an average QB at the helm, one that could move in the pocket, make strong throws down the seam, and consistently find open receivers. It's ok to disagree on this.
It's very clear, though, that momentum plays a huge part in how teams look and perform. We need not look further than the Atlanta Superbowl. This team cannot get any momentum and the only constant is the QB. This is why I'm so sure that he's the problem.
That's all fair, I think I just read that last sentence as "everything besides Mac is hunky dory." As in, he was the only problem. But now I think you meant that he is the central problem, which is a different thing.
It is interesting to go to the first few pages of this thread, which are generally all somewhere between very excited and mutedly optimistic.....
Basically all the concerns some of the less enthused people had are all the same issues we still discuss... can he handle pressure, can he handle tighter windows when his WRs don't get major separation, can he be more consistent with his mechanics and footwork, can he drive the ball, is he going to be able to place the ball where the WR can make YAC... etc.
Basically all the concerns some of the less enthused people had are all the same issues we still discuss... can he handle pressure, can he handle tighter windows when his WRs don't get major separation, can he be more consistent with his mechanics and footwork, can he drive the ball, is he going to be able to place the ball where the WR can make YAC... etc.
This is the crux of the argument, and I've asked repeatedly for folks to name a "competent, average quarterback" that could elevate a bottom 3 offensive line, a bottom 5-10 group of skill position players and a coaching situation involving 3 OC's in 3 years to where you think this team should be (apparently, far, far above .500, which is where Mac has them through 3 years).
I don't believe that guy exists. Kirk Cousins can't elevate a team with far better offensive players and line play. Baker Mayfield has 3 wins (against Minnesota, Chicago and New Orleans mind you) this year, getting some of the best line play in the NFL and better receivers than Mac. Daniel Jones? Derek Carr? Jimmy G.? Bryce Young? CJ Stroud? Zach Wilson (Lol)? We all know Mac isn't Mahomes, Allen, Burrow (who can't do shit without competent line play this year), etc. But who is succeeding with this cast of characters?
Now, let's also remember those average QB's like Jimmy G. and Derek Carr are making a combined what, $60mil against their teams caps next year? How many more wins are those kinds of guys realistically going to provide this group? 1?
You ignored the part where I believe Mac is making the team worse. I am not glossing over the struggles of the OL and WR, but I'm also taking that side of things with a grain of salt. I do believe they would be a lot better with a stable QB and yes Kirk Cousins is miles ahead of Mac and would command this offense much better. I don't care about your opinion of him, he's proven to at least be a competent QB that can score points.
It's kind of insane both how on point this evaluation was and how the same doubts and issues persist in year 3 (maybe you could argue what changed is pocket presence went from strength to neutral or weakness). Major props to @SMU_Sox.Going to riff a little on Mac Jones.
The thing with any fairly-immobile pocket-passer is you have limitations. Mac can work around them with his pocket-presence and he has better escape moves than Trask but there will always be limitations to his game. You can scheme around them. You can have success with a pocket passer. The issue with Mac to me is his arm is fringy and I am not sold that he is an elite processor. If you have his skill-set you need to have a perfect surrounding, a great OL, good skill players, etc. But if Mac Jones can develop there is a case for him having more ceiling than at first blush.
You can fix some of Mac's issues mechanically which should stop balls from dying on him but he isn't going to be a guy who ever operates a vertical passing offense. In a lot of ways Mac Jones and Lamar Jackson have similar arms. They can attack the middle of the field and the short to intermediate areas but are going to struggle outside the numbers. If you can get his delivery more compact and less fading off his back leg he should gain both velocity and ball placement with the latter concerning me more with his next step the pro game.
Intangibles are important and I can tell you why I liked Mac Jones much more as I got into his 2020 tape. At the start of the process I only had Mac's 2019 tape and I had a 6.49 on him, a backup grade. One of his worst games was vs Auburn in 2019. One of Mac's biggest issues was adjusting to a post snap coverage that was different from pre-snap coverage. He couldn't see it. You know what happened this year when teams tried to pull the same shit on him? He saw through it. He actually improved and you could see defenses not fooling him. That is significant.
It was hard to get a read on him. Mac Jones was one of the most challenging evals and not just for me but for most NFL forecasters and evaluators... It's hard to evaluate a guy with a fringy arm, with inconsistent ball placement, with shitty mobility who plays on an absolutely loaded team for a phenomenal coordinator who has an offense that doesn't actually ask Mac to process a ton on most plays. Jones had around 58% of plays via screen, RPO, or play-action. Good thing for him the Patriots like play-action and screens too.
Let's look at his strengths and weaknesses:
Strengths: pocket presence, can get the ball out quickly, is one of the better field readers, has good general accuracy, hard worker, a locker-room leader. Works the short and intermediate areas of the field well and can have success downfield with timing and anticipation and will be aided through play-actions. Some of the best short and intermediate touch and anticipation.
Weaknesses: fringe to average arm strength, inconsistent to poor ball placement, lack of mobility, can be too quick to get the ball out and leave plays on the field, needs to learn when to throw it away because he doesn't have the arm or athleticism to play back-yard ball.
I like dual-threats. I like mobile guys. I like the Lamar Jacksons, Justin Fields, Trey Lance's of the world. I don't like guys who have narrower paths to success and have, and this is true whether you love Mac or not, fewer tools in the tool belt. But as long as Mac Jones can win as a pocket passer he can be a quality starter. If Jones can add arm strength, become more of an athlete which would lead to better mobility in the pocket as well as another way to increase his arm strength, fix his mechanics which would then lead to ball placement improvement and velocity increases he has the makings of a Matt Ryan kind of a QB prospect on the high end and a Marc Bulger on the low end. Guys who have elite mental traits like Brady, Ryan, Manning, Brees are rare but there is a path to a higher ceiling QB based on RARE elite traits. Does he have them? Will he have the chance to develop them? Remains to be seen. His mental progression from 2019 is a cause for optimism though.
I guess another reason I was a little lower on him is I am a human being, he isn't my type, and I wish I was going to watch a flashier, sexier, toolsier prospect for my favorite team. But if I can talk myself into liking Mac Jones and being rational and not petty about it after an entire off-season of dreading him... well, and I don't know who else needs to hear this, maybe you can too
Now let's get some DBs, RBs, and OTs. And a WR would be nice too. Got to keep the weaponz fresh for Mac Daddy. Only the best for our country-club QB. Hey. I had to get one dig in, right?
The thing I like the most about Mac is his cost. They have a 2-4 year window with last years draft, the rest of this years draft, and the free-agents they got this year. The only realistic way imo they were doing that is by having a rookie QB on that sweet sweet rookie deal. With the way Mac improved from 2019-2020 if he can starter by the end of this year they could be in contention for the division next year.
There is a negative side too. If Mac Jones was more a product of a loaded team and a great scheme and who is more immobile and doesn't continue to develop as a pocket passer he could absolutely be a bust but then again that is true of any QB.
For the people arguing Mac’s problems are really an issue of not enough supporting talent:
How much should we extend Mac for after next year? And then who would you sign to build an elite OL, WR corps, and of course, defense, because there’s no indication our offense will become world-beaters even with elite skill talent.
How much do you pay Mac Jones on a theoretical loaded team in 2025?
How much should we extend Mac for after next year? And then who would you sign to build an elite OL, WR corps, and of course, defense, because there’s no indication our offense will become world-beaters even with elite skill talent.
How much do you pay Mac Jones on a theoretical loaded team in 2025?
Blind squirrel finds nuts, news at 11am. Thanks though. I think the most disappointing thing for me was his meltdown to bullshit hero ball stuff last week. I just thought he put that behind him and I jumped the gun. Nope. Still in his DNA. And the things I had hoped he would fix are still issues. Damn. Sucks. I still think he would be a lot better with a better supporting cast but… that ship sailed. Honestly the way they managed the offense and the roster on offense in 2021-2023 is why I am skeptical about BB in the other thread.
Mac is under contract in 2025. The team has an option for a little over $23mil. They have to make that decision by May, 2024 on whether or not to pick it up.
That's why this year was so critical to finding out whether or not he could improve.
Bottom line, Mac will be the QB until the end of this season and if he plays better, they probably pick up the option, which could screw them if he plays well in 2025 with a loaded team, but that's just a guess. I'd also be fine with them not picking it up, but you have to punt on 2024 if you do that, because the crop of QB's hitting in the 2025 draft will be imperative to get into the top of the draft.
I see your point, but do you pay him $23 million or decline the option, see what anyone else would offer a guy that can’t win without perfection at every position around him, and offer him significantly less to come back?
Or do you spend the next 1-2 years finding the guy that doesn’t need perfection at every position? Can it get actually worse than Mac?
Full disclosure before I get into the meat of the post: I am a Pats fan but nowhere near a diehard. I am a Bucs fan first and foremost. I root for the Pats whenever they play any other team and I watch them when they are on national TV, so I haven't watched a ton of games in the Mac era. I also can't fucking stand Colin Cowherd...
All of that said, and this is definitely not value added in terms of his performance on the field or anything like that, but it's striking to me how unlikable Mac is. There are the numerous "incidents" on the field (Brian Burns, Sauce Gardner, I believe there are two more that I am forgetting. The temper tantrums on the sideline....
Basically, I have no idea if Cowherd is right and has sources or if he's pulling this out of his ass but it wouldn't surprise me in the least if what he's saying is true
I don’t really disagree with you, but to what extent is Mac Jones making his supporting cast seem worse than they are? He’s certainly not elevating them. Of course, it’s a bit of a chicken and egg situation. Ultimately, it’s seems likely that Mac, his WRs, and his OL all stink.
Oh, I think it can get far, far worse than Mac, but I lived through the 80's and most of the 90's here and I watch QB's with far better situations than Mac has shit on themselves week after week around the NFL.
There is a wide, wide chasm between perfection at every position around him, and what I'm saying. Shit, I think I say it all the time, I'd take NFL level mediocre play around him. When he had that in 2021, they went to the playoffs.
The problem is with trying to find a guy in the next 1-2 years is that it doesn't exist. Mac is still on a rookie deal for this year and next. The best option for this team is to use that massive cap space next year and build something resembling an offense. If Mac isn't the guy, then you move on (although I think that ship is probably sailing, as I believe they may have broken the kid for good in the Flying Elvis). Going out and bringing in a middle of the road QB like Derek Carr for 35mil+ year isn't getting this team anywhere, and drafting guys and sticking them into the oven like they did with Mac isn't workable either.
I believe what's changed is that the onus is now on Mac Jones to prove he doesn't stink.
I personally believe the OL has played like a bottom of the league unit in at least 2 of this season's 4 games. Not bottom third. Not bottom 5. Just bottom. And the stats from PFF and others bear that assessment out. I honestly don't see how any QB could elevate the team to a playoff spot with that line. That's not a defense of Mac; it's just noting how bad this OL has been. If we had 5 new OL to start 2024 I would not be at all disappointed; or surprised for that matter.
I think a debate can be had on whose more responsible for this team's struggles when it comes to the QB vs the WR's, but it's likely that neither are any good. What I will say is that Kraft will not give Belichick nor any replacement GM all the way until 2026 to find a replacement QB; just the way it is.
Completely agree. All the talk about how the Pats are average ignores that teams that are average for long periods of time (like say, 4 years) tend to make changes in their organizational structure. 5 years without a playoff win is a long time. How many head coaches or GM’s survive that?
I think the successful teams have tended to be patient with their GMs. Coaches less so, but still the NFL has proven throwing coaches overboard every couple of seasons doesn't lead to success either. And the organization in this case rightfully viewed 2020 as a throwaway year for cap and CoVid reasons.
I think these past four weeks has turned the tide and even the previous doubters are leaning to the opinion that Mac is not the long-term answer. I feel strongly that they will re-boot at QB, starting with the 2024 draft. The only question is whether or not to pick up Mac's 5th-year option -- and I'd bet no on that. Use that money toward a WR1.
Agreed, his mechanics are awful, there was a play later in the game where Parker was open coming across the middle, Jones threw the ball flat footed vs stepping into the throw and the ball sailed 6 feet over Parkers head.
Shitty technique, shitty throw.
He's a hot mess right now.
This is from pff before Sundays game, not sure of their overall pass block ranking after 4 games though:
“ C.J. Stroud finding his feet: It is certainly true that Stroud has struggled under pressure, as he ranks 35th among 38 qualifying signal-callers in PFF grade under pressure. However, he has been terrific from a clean pocket, producing a league-leading EPA when kept free from pressure.”
Except even with a clean pocket Mac is throwing off his back foot or, as was the case the other night, moving outside and then throwing across the field. There is so much blame to go on the qb here.
I agree. I didn’t intend it as a defense of Mac. More that stroud has been horrid under pressure…and even though Texans line is beat up per a chart in another thread they are pass blocking at average nfl level. The patriots are.. not.
I think any qb currently in the nfl (and probably many in the cfl) would’ve looked better than mac on Sunday. I also think that if cj stroud were the patriots qb we’d be 1-3 wondering if we picked the wrong guy at qb…
So do some people still think Lombardi is a BB mouthpiece? (Interesting idea but I never put much stock in BB playing those kinds of games.)
Tend to agree, but I do not follow the media politics stuff that closely.
Not necessarily a mouthpiece, but a buddy who I don't believe would give strong opinions on Patriots players that he knows Bill disagrees with.
Yes, it’s what I think anyway. If he is not talking about BB related topics then it’s just regular old blah but if he’s weighing in on Patriots related topics it’s with the blessings.
At this point you would think even Jones would concede what Lombardi is saying is correct. None of this is that controversial, is it?
Exactly. He's always had a tendency to respond to adversity by taking terrible risks.
This is interesting, though: in the midst of his worst game as a pro, Mac was 6-7 for 119 yards on throws of 10+ air yards. The only incompletion was the Gesicki drop. (While being a disastrous 6-14, 31 yards, 2 INT on everything else).
View: https://twitter.com/tkyles39/status/1708912881138356326?s=20
It does suggest that he could do better if the line could block. Also maybe suggests that Dallas tried a more aggressive approach to defending him - risk the big play to take away the short game?
I don't think that "risk the big play to take away the short game" is a novel approach to defending this offense. The OL can't block, the WR can't get separation, and the QB hasn't shown any ability to keep plays alive and make accurate deep throws (as a pro anyway). Anyone not covering this offense that way is bonkers.
Yes, that has to be right. But maybe the Cowboys were a bit more extreme in how they did it.
Dallas is just a really aggressive D in general, they got beat by ARI because Dobbs avoided the rush and either made throws down field or ran with it. DAL relies heavily on turnivers and sacks, especially without Diggs