Tompa Bay: Tom Tom club

BigSoxFan

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I don't see anyone talking about the possibility that Brady retires if the Bucs win (but I'm also not paying a ton of attention, either). It's tough to repeat and he will have proven that he can win without BB. I think it's a very real possibility, and maybe even more likely than not. Just go out on top.
Bucs are scheduled to play in Foxboro next year. No idea if fans will be allowed or not but I have to believe there’s no way Brady is passing that up. I think retirement happens after next year. Right at 45 like he always said.
 

Ferm Sheller

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Hmmm... he comes back for a season in which it's very unlikely that he'd win the SB just to play against the Pats? Not go out on top? I'm not sure.
 

Super Nomario

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I don't see anyone talking about the possibility that Brady retires if the Bucs win (but I'm also not paying a ton of attention, either). It's tough to repeat and he will have proven that he can win without BB. I think it's a very real possibility, and maybe even more likely than not. Just go out on top.
I don't think he cares about going out on top. Brady has nothing left to accomplish. I don't think he would have gotten nearly this far if he didn't - as he's said - just love the day-to-day grind of being a football player.
 

Ferm Sheller

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Wait, if he wins the Super Bowl this year why is it very unlikely he won’t do it again next year?
Tough for a team to repeat. Plus, the odds against any particular team winning in any given year (against the field), especially when the team isn't a powerhouse, are low. I'm not saying they won't, I'm just saying the history suggests that they won't.
 

Mystic Merlin

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I don't think he cares about going out on top. Brady has nothing left to accomplish. I don't think he would have gotten nearly this far if he didn't - as he's said - just love the day-to-day grind of being a football player.
This. He is amazingly similar to BB in this respect. Both love prevailing on Sunday, but they absolutely relish all of the work it takes to get to Sunday, too. For most guys, even HOFers, that’s nuts, but they are not normal people.
 

BigSoxFan

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Tough for a team to repeat. Plus, the odds against any particular team winning in any given year (against the field), especially when the team isn't a powerhouse, are low. I'm not saying they won't, I'm just saying the history suggests that they won't.
He had a chance to go out on top at 41 years-old and opted against it. I think he goes out when he realizes he can’t make the throws anymore and not based on team results.
 

Ferm Sheller

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I guess we'll see. I just think it's a real possibility that he walks away if they win and that this therefore could be his last game. I mean, it's not a crazy thought. The guy will be 44 before next season and his kids are getting older and there's been some talk, who knows how accurate, that his wife wants him around full-time.
 

steveluck7

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Tough for a team to repeat. Plus, the odds against any particular team winning in any given year (against the field), especially when the team isn't a powerhouse, are low. I'm not saying they won't, I'm just saying the history suggests that they won't.
I’m curious what happens if they lose the super bowl. Recent history dictates that the SB loser misses the playoffs the following season. If they lose and that “history” holds, next offseason becomes very interesting.
He’ll be a UFA. Does he want to keep playing? Does Tampa want to move on?

Edit: clarity. My original post may have been unclear that I meant he will be a UFA after the 2021 season
 
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Ferm Sheller

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I’m curious what happens if they lose the super bowl. Recent history dictates that the SB loser misses the playoffs the following season. If they lose and that “history” holds, next offseason becomes very interesting.
He’s a UFA. Does he want to keep playing? Does Tampa want to move on?
If the Bucs lose and the Niners are really committed to moving on from Jimmy G... need I say more?

EDIT: That Niners team has good weapons on offense and they might be better than what the Bucs have, especially if the Bucs can't retain Godwin and the Niners draft Pitts or some other offensive player at pick 12.
 

sonofgodcf

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The toilet.
Tough for a team to repeat. Plus, the odds against any particular team winning in any given year (against the field), especially when the team isn't a powerhouse, are low. I'm not saying they won't, I'm just saying the history suggests that they won't.
It's tough to repeat, but no reason to think he won't have a chance to get back. Post SB victories, Brady has returned to the final game twice (2/6, winning once). The other three times he's gone to the SB and lost, one season was lost to injury, one loss in the AFCCG, and one SB win.

This Bucs team is still going to have a lot of talent next year and Brady will likely still be an above average QB. No reason to think they can't make it back to a SB, plus he has the motivation to play to 45 and against the Pats. That, plus Gronk's statement that he's returning and I'd be shocked if Brady isn't back, win or lose next week.
 

Ralphwiggum

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He just threw 40 TDs and led his team to the Super Bowl. He's not retiring. 45 is the goal he set for himself, so long as he can still play at a high level I see no reason to not take him at his word on that.
 

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Potential "dynasties" that Brady has stamped out:

2001 - The Rams had won in 1999, had a 2-time MVP quarterback, the Greatest Show on Turf. Ricky Proehl announces, "A dynasty is born tonight." If the Rams had won, likely they would have been considered a dynasty. Pats win 20-17. The Rams promptly go 7-9 the next year, and don't make it back to the Super Bowl until the 2018 season where they meet Tom Brady and the Patriots.

2004 - The Eagles had been to the NFC Championship game 4 years in a row, finally winning it in the 2004 season. Winning it would have set them up to be a potential dynasty, given how dominant they'd been. Pats win 24-21. Philly promptly goes 6-10 the next year, and don't make it back to the Super Bowl until the 2017 season where they meet Tom Brady and the Patriots.

2014 - The Seahawks were the defending champs, having obliterated Peyton Manning and the Broncos the year before, and boasting superstar Russell Wilson and the league's #1 defense. On the verge of back-to-back titles, the Pats win 28-24. Seattle goes 10-6, 10-5-1, and 9-7 the next three years, and they haven't been to the Super Bowl since.

2020 - The Chiefs are the defending champs, though the year before Brady, then with New England, had knocked them out of the playoffs in the AFCCG. On the verge of winning back-to-back titles, Brady and the Tampa Bay Bucs have the chance to put this talk of a Chiefs dynasty to bed.
Took the liberty of adding a couple interesting tidbits to the first two.
 

GeorgeCostanza

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Pandemonium67

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There's no debate in at least one category. Brady has had more dildoes personalized with his name thrown onto the Rich Stadium field than all other QBs combined.
 

snowmanny

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I am sorry Brady isn’t on a Patriots Super Bowl-bound team this year, but given the amount of work that has gone into trying to diminish his greatness over the years by talk about “system quarterback”, spygate, deflategate, tuck rule, falling off a cliff, tomato can schedules, home field advantages,
Manning/Rodgers/Roethlisberger/Luck/Brees is better, etc.....

....it is satisfying that he just went to the NFC where Wilson and the Seahawks or Rodgers and the Packers or Brees and the Saints were all at one point or another the favorites to win the Conference,

and Brady went 11-5 and was faced with three road games....

and frankly it didn’t look all that close. He looked as good as anyone and he’s back again.
 

BaseballJones

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Honestly, reading that Saints' fans thread....I am SO glad Brady is in the Super Bowl. I want him to win another so badly. The arguments their fans are making are just....mind-bogglingly stupid.
 

Ferm Sheller

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Honestly, reading that Saints' fans thread....I am SO glad Brady is in the Super Bowl. I want him to win another so badly. The arguments their fans are making are just....mind-bogglingly stupid.
He's a few plays here and there away from not having played in ANY Super Bowls.
 

BaseballJones

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Brady has more playoff games where his team has scored 30 or more points (20) than Brees has playoff games played TOTAL (18).
Brady has more playoff games where his team has scored 34 or more points (11) than Brees has total playoff wins (9).
Brady has more playoff wins by double digits (15) than Brees has total playoff wins (9).
Brady has more playoff wins when he's thrown for 3 or more TDs (11) than Brees has total playoff wins (9).

It's hilarious.
 

BigSoxFan

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Brady has more playoff games where his team has scored 30 or more points (20) than Brees has playoff games played TOTAL (18).
Brady has more playoff games where his team has scored 34 or more points (11) than Brees has total playoff wins (9).
Brady has more playoff wins by double digits (15) than Brees has total playoff wins (9).
Brady has more playoff wins when he's thrown for 3 or more TDs (11) than Brees has total playoff wins (9).

It's hilarious.
In 1998, I once argued with a friend that Antoine Walker was better than Kevin Garnett. And even that dumb argument is better than people claiming Brees > Brady.
 

BaseballJones

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In 1998, I once argued with a friend that Antoine Walker was better than Kevin Garnett. And even that dumb argument is better than people claiming Brees > Brady.
I know, right? Reading that thread is making me laugh and cringe, but it's also sucking me in, hence my little tidbits of research. I'm just astounded at the "arguments" the pro-Brees guys are making.
 

tims4wins

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Brady has more playoff games where his team has scored 30 or more points (20) than Brees has playoff games played TOTAL (18).
Brady has more playoff games where his team has scored 34 or more points (11) than Brees has total playoff wins (9).
Brady has more playoff wins by double digits (15) than Brees has total playoff wins (9).
Brady has more playoff wins when he's thrown for 3 or more TDs (11) than Brees has total playoff wins (9).

It's hilarious.
Brady has 9 career playoff wins vs NFC opponents. Brees has 8. Brady has played in the NFC for one year. Brees has played in the NFC for 14.
 

Euclis20

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Took the liberty of adding a couple interesting tidbits to the first two.
And the Pats were a missed 2 point conversion in 2015 away from OT with a chance to go back to the super bowl against...the Carolina Panthers, in their first super bowl since losing to the Pats in 2003. Really would've liked the rematch trifecta.
 

snowmanny

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While looking for more quarterback heatmaps from Ethan Douglas, The Athletic stays guy, I stumbled across this:

View: https://mobile.twitter.com/EthanCDouglas/status/1312821071251349504



@EthanCDouglas
I’ll never understand the high predictions around Brady going into this year. Has any quarterback deep into their career ever bounced back from such a horrible season?

October 4, 2020

By “never” does that include even if they come true?
 

BornToRun

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You guys want to have your heads explode, check out this thread in a Saints' fans forum:

https://saintsreport.com/threads/does-bradys-2021-postseason-put-an-end-to-the-brees-vs-rodgers-vs-brady-debate.443638/
One of my favorite things to do is to read the fans of other teams twist themselves into knots trying to justify the idea that their inferior HOF QB is on Tom’s level. Drew Brees is an indoor coddled, one ring wonder who is going to retire, enter politics, and become Louisiana’s version of Steve Largent.
 

BaseballJones

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One of my favorite things to do is to read the fans of other teams twist themselves into knots trying to justify the idea that their inferior HOF QB is on Tom’s level. Drew Brees is an indoor coddled, one ring wonder who is going to retire, enter politics, and become Louisiana’s version of Steve Largent.
It's amazing, really. Nobody denies that Brees is an all-time great. But the guys defending him use passer rating as a key stat, and they don't even realize that even though Brees has a better career passer rating than Brady, Brady has a better passer rating both indoors AND outdoors than Brees does. I bet the Saints' fans can't even understand how that's mathematically possible.
 

Super Nomario

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While looking for more quarterback heatmaps from Ethan Douglas, The Athletic stays guy, I stumbled across this:

View: https://mobile.twitter.com/EthanCDouglas/status/1312821071251349504



@EthanCDouglas
I’ll never understand the high predictions around Brady going into this year. Has any quarterback deep into their career ever bounced back from such a horrible season?

October 4, 2020

By “never” does that include even if they come true?
View: https://twitter.com/EthanCDouglas/status/1305283490049527810


More: This isn’t hindsight bias, this isn’t a week one overreaction, Brady was BAD last year and the thought that at his age he’d lead this team to a super bowl was always ridiculous. Saints defense is good but Bucs will be hopeful to win a wild card spot at best.
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

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My takeaway from the first few pages of that thread is that if your criterion for determining the greatest QB of all time is greatness, Tom wins very easily. If your criteria for determining the greatest QB of all time are something other than how great the player is, then it is perhaps debatable.
 
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rodderick

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It's amazing, really. Nobody denies that Brees is an all-time great. But the guys defending him use passer rating as a key stat, and they don't even realize that even though Brees has a better career passer rating than Brady, Brady has a better passer rating both indoors AND outdoors than Brees does. I bet the Saints' fans can't even understand how that's mathematically possible.
Dome QB who ranks last in average depth of target every single year has a high completion percentage which passer rating overvalues disproportionately. That's really the extent of the explanation.
 

luckiestman

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I stopped reading that Saints thread when one comment listed a bunch of HOF QBs who each possessed one characteristic each that was better than Brady as an argument as to why Brady was not the best; how strange is that argument? So Voltron HOF QB is the best all time? It didn’t make any sense.
 

BaseballJones

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Dome QB who ranks last in average depth of target every single year has a high completion percentage which passer rating overvalues disproportionately. That's really the extent of the explanation.
That’s all true but that’s not why Brees has a better overall passer rating but Brady has a better passer rating both indoors and outdoors.
 

snowmanny

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I stopped reading that Saints thread when one comment listed a bunch of HOF QBs who each possessed one characteristic each that was better than Brady as an argument as to why Brady was not the best; how strange is that argument? So Voltron HOF QB is the best all time? It didn’t make any sense.
Which one was better at winning?

I mean at a certain point winning in and of itself probably does mean something. And that point might be when you go to a team that has been an irrelevant pile of crap for 18 years, like much less accomplished than the Jets, and put them in the Super Bowl without barely breaking a sweat and oh by the way just as a bonus along the way you finish off Drew Brees and make Aaron Rodgers publicly and painfully confused about all his life choices.
 

Rough Carrigan

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I stopped reading that Saints thread when one comment listed a bunch of HOF QBs who each possessed one characteristic each that was better than Brady as an argument as to why Brady was not the best; how strange is that argument? So Voltron HOF QB is the best all time? It didn’t make any sense.
Years ago, the family of 1940's Indians third baseman Ken Keltner, a good but nowhere near HOF player made the same sorts of laughable arguments in promoting his candidacy.

Why, how can you oppose Ken Keltner for hall of fame when he had more stolen bases than HOF Harmon Killebrew, more home runs than HOF Ray Schalk, more triples than HOF Willie McCovey, fewer drug convictions than HOF Orlando Cepeda? Okay I made up that last one but I think they used the other comparisons.
 

BaseballJones

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Yeah one of the guys was asking if Brady is the GOAT, what is he the GOAT *AT*? And he said that other QBs have a better arm or better running ability or better accuracy or could throw the deep ball better or had better stats etc. So if Brady wasn’t the GOAT at these things, how could he truly be the greatest ever?

I mean besides winning, which the guy chalked up to Brady’s great surrounding cast and because winning is a team achievement.

Good times.
 

rodderick

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Yeah one of the guys was asking if Brady is the GOAT, what is he the GOAT *AT*? And he said that other QBs have a better arm or better running ability or better accuracy or could throw the deep ball better or had better stats etc. So if Brady wasn’t the GOAT at these things, how could he truly be the greatest ever?

I mean besides winning, which the guy chalked up to Brady’s great surrounding cast and because winning is a team achievement.

Good times.
What was Jordan the GOAT at? This is such a stupid argument.
 

Seels

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Winning matters. People try to take this view of stats in that there is some objective other than winning. I'm into advanced stats. I get things like epa cpoe dvoa etc. While win % might not mean much in a small sample, it's not a coincidence in a big sample. The list of best qbs ever is going to be nearly a 1 for 1 consensus match by how they rank in all time win %.

The argument for not using wins attempts some sort of enlightenment for how we should evaluate quarterbacks, and has a halfassed argument of 'well there are 52 other players'. Sure. But you're not going to find bad quarterbacks that win 55% of their games. And at 65%+ - you're only going to find GOAT contenders. Brady is at 77%. He could lose his next 25 games, and still be above Joe Montana. He could lose his next 40, and still be above Peyton Manning. Is it the only stat? No, that's stupid. But it's the cherry on top of everything else. Drew Brees could come back, win every game for the next 5 years straight, and he'd only pass Brady in wins at the tail end. He'd still have 40+ losses on him.

Brees was never, ever, in the ball park of Manning or Brady. Not for a game, not for a season, not for a career. He's a more consistent Philip Rivers with better conditions. A damn good player, but a far cry from being in serious discussion as the best ever.
 

shawnrbu

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https://sports.yahoo.com/ex-patriots-wr-danny-amendola-says-tom-brady-is-the-patriot-way-not-bill-belichick-165958554.html
Danny Amendola on The Patriot Way:

When you see ‘Patriot Way’ in the dictionary, it’s going to have Tom Brady’s pic next to it. None of those coaches threw any passes. None of those coaches caught any passes. None of those coaches made any tackles. They got guys in the right position because they watch a lot of film and they spend all their time at the facility. But Tom Brady is the Patriot Way, and that’s the reason why Tom Brady’s in the Super Bowl right now and the Patriots aren’t.
 

Kliq

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There is like, nothing dumber than people talking about "The Patriot Way."
 

Mystic Merlin

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Amusing that in crediting the players, and not the coaches, he points to Tom, and not the OTHER players, too. After all, why wasn’t Tom in the Super Bowl, or even close to it, last year?
 

BigSoxFan

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There clearly appears to be some animosity from former players. Instead of just celebrating Brady's success, guys like Amendola feel the need to dunk on Belichick, which is strange. I get that he is a really tough guy to play for but the older guard like Faulk, Bruschi, Harrison, etc. never really took these shots, if I'm not mistaken.
 

rodderick

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There clearly appears to be some animosity from former players. Instead of just celebrating Brady's success, guys like Amendola feel the need to dunk on Belichick, which is strange. I get that he is a really tough guy to play for but the older guard like Faulk, Bruschi, Harrison, etc. never really took these shots, if I'm not mistaken.
None of those guys were let go by the team. I don't know the answer, but did guys like Seymour, Vrabel, Law and Samuel take some parting shots at Belichick?
 

lexrageorge

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I couldn't resist re-quoting this:

They got guys in the right position because they watch a lot of film and they spend all their time at the facility.
Well, their "getting guys in the right position" directly helped the Pats win the one Super Bowl that they were about to lose against Seattle, and the wind sprints Bill made the team do directly helped the team when they were getting destroyed by the Falcons in another. Those just happen to be Danny's two rings.

FWIW, Hightower had no issue resigning here, and DMac was happy to get his twin brother to Foxboro. Gronk's brother had a cup of coffee in New England. And Edelman has always been complimentary towards Belichick. The whole "Brady vs Belichick" story is just dumb, which is the only reason Shank will continue to run with it.