Tompa Bay: Tom Tom Club

SumnerH

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No way, man. Sorry for jumping in late here, but down here in DC area, it's absolutely Brady first, then Belichick.
Not in the circles I hang out around. Most people basically hate Brady because he's good but don't really care about him outside of that. Belichick is pretty universally viewed as a Sith Lord who must be destroyed.
 

loshjott

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Brady has now won a Championship under four presidents, matching Bill Russell (Ike through Nixon). Russell’s titles were over only a 12 year period.
 

Trlicek's Whip

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I suspect there'll be a 2021 Tompa Bay thread soonish, but knowing nothing about the Buccaneers' salary cap situation or player contracts or depth of roster or draft prospects, are they well-positioned to keep the core intact for another run next year or was this year largely an all-in push for one ring with the current personnel?
 

BigSoxFan

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I suspect there'll be a 2021 Tompa Bay thread soonish, but knowing nothing about the Buccaneers' salary cap situation or player contracts or depth of roster or draft prospects, are they well-positioned to keep the core intact for another run next year or was this year largely an all-in push for one ring with the current personnel?
It's going to be tight for them. They only have 30 guys signed for next year right now so their current $38M in cap space per spotrac is pretty tenuous. Clearly, there will be restructurings and other things of that nature but they have a lot of key guys as UFA:

Shaq Barrett
Lavonte David
Gronk
Suh
Fournette
AB
Godwin

I think Godwin is surely a goner. Barrett might be as well since somebody is going to throw him major money. I could see Gronk, Suh, Fournette, AB running it back for reasonable money. Next year's team won't be as talented as this year's team but it should still be pretty good.

https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/cap/2021/
 

rodderick

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It's going to be tight for them. They only have 30 guys signed for next year right now so their current $38M in cap space per spotrac is pretty tenuous. Clearly, there will be restructurings and other things of that nature but they have a lot of key guys as UFA:

Shaq Barrett
Lavonte David
Gronk
Suh
Fournette
AB
Godwin

I think Godwin is surely a goner. Barrett might be as well since somebody is going to throw him major money. I could see Gronk, Suh, Fournette, AB running it back for reasonable money. Next year's team won't be as talented as this year's team but it should still be pretty good.

https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/cap/2021/
I think OJ Howard could be deadly in the Brate role, though. There's a chance their offense is better and their defense remains the same (guys leave, but their young core takes a step up). My feeling is Gronk and AB will be back under reasonable money.
 

BigSoxFan

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I think OJ Howard could be deadly in the Brate role, though. There's a chance their offense is better and their defense remains the same (guys leave, but their young core takes a step up). My feeling is Gronk and AB will be back under reasonable money.
Yup, they are going to be good next year. Howard’s return will help to offset some of the loss of Godwin. Agree that it’s likely Gronk/AB return to run it back with Brady. Fournette may not return but they could bring in a guy like White and let RoJo handle the running downs.
 

BaseballJones

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Patrick Mahomes, two Super Bowls....

vs SF, quarters 1-3, plus 6 minutes of the 4th quarter: 18-30 (60.0%), 172 yds, 5.7 y/a, 0 td, 2 int, 48.2 RATING
vs TB, quarters 1-4: 26-49 (53.1%), 270 yds, 5.5 y/a, 0 td, 2 int, 52.3 rating
7 quarters+ 6 min total: 44-79 (55.7%), 442 yds, 5.6 y/a, 0 td, 4 int, 50.7 rating
vs SF, quarter 4: 8-12 (66.7%), 114 yds, 9.5 y/a, 2 td, 0 int, 136.8 rating

And of those yards in that good stretch vs. SF, two of them covered 82 yards. Two bombs. Basically, Pat Mahomes has been good for about 9 minutes in the two Super Bowls he's been in.
 

shawnrbu

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Yup, they are going to be good next year. Howard’s return will help to offset some of the loss of Godwin. Agree that it’s likely Gronk/AB return to run it back with Brady. Fournette may not return but they could bring in a guy like White and let RoJo handle the running downs.
And the schedule next season is very easy. Saints will not be as good. Falcons and Panthers aren’t good. The NFC East. Layups against the Jets and Patriots. The tough games are Buffalo and Rams and not much else. Should be 12 to 13 wins and a good chance at a bye.
 

BigJimEd

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Yup, they are going to be good next year. Howard’s return will help to offset some of the loss of Godwin. Agree that it’s likely Gronk/AB return to run it back with Brady. Fournette may not return but they could bring in a guy like White and let RoJo handle the running downs.
I think one of the TE's could be on the way out to help pay for other positions. Both Brate and Howard are due over $6M in salary next season. If they also bring back Gronk it is hard to see them paying all three with that list of free agents. They could try to extend/restructure as well but I'm not sure how willing those guys would be. On one hand, you have a chance to repeat, on the other you're in a rotation of 3 TEs.
 

BigSoxFan

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I think one of the TE's could be on the way out to help pay for other positions. Both Brate and Howard are due over $6M in salary next season. If they also bring back Gronk it is hard to see them paying all three with that list of free agents. They could try to extend/restructure as well but I'm not sure how willing those guys would be. On one hand, you have a chance to repeat, on the other you're in a rotation of 3 TEs.
Agreed. They did fine with 2 TEs this year with Howard out the entire year. Seems like a luxury they can't afford, if Gronk does return.
 

E5 Yaz

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from peter king's column this morning

• April 2000. Tom Brady drafted by the Patriots. Calvin Johnson is in eighth grade in Tyrone, Ga.

• February 2002. Brady wins his first Super Bowl in New England. Johnson’s midway through his sophomore year in high school.

• January 2004. Brady on his way to his second Super Bowl title. Johnson, a wide receiver, commits to Georgia Tech.

• April 2007. Brady about to embark on his first MVP season, and the Patriots’ 16-0 regular season. Johnson drafted second overall by Detroit.

• February 2012. Brady plays in his fifth Super Bowl, losing to the Giants. Johnson sets an NFL single-season record with 1,964 receiving yards.

• March 2016. Brady, coming off a season with a league-leading 36 TD passes, says he’ll play into his forties. Johnson, 30, announces his retirement after nine seasons.

• November 2016. Brady en route to fifth Super Bowl title at 39. Johnson and partner Lindsay Arnold finish third in Dancing With the Stars, acing “Tutti Frutti” on the final number.

• February 2019. Brady and the Pats top the Rams for his sixth Super Bowl title. Johnson and his wife open a cannabis dispensary in Michigan.

• February 2021. Brady, 43, plays in his 10th Super Bowl in Tampa. Johnson, 35, elected to the Pro Football Hall of Fame five years after retiring.
 

tims4wins

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Removing 2000 and 2008 for obvious reasons, Brady has been more likely to win a title (7/19 = .368) than Ty Cobb was to get a hit (.366).
 

DeadlySplitter

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This playoff run was the first to score 30+ points in 4 games. the funny thing is it was very consistent: 31, 30, 31, 31.
 

djbayko

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Brady has now won a Championship under four presidents, matching Bill Russell (Ike through Nixon). Russell’s titles were over only a 12 year period.
Kind of funny fact stolen from Reddit:

Between Tom Brady's 3rd and 10th Super Bowl appearances, Calvin Johnson was drafted, retired, and made the Hall of Fame.
 

E5 Yaz

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Kind of funny fact stolen from Reddit:

Between Tom Brady's 3rd and 10th Super Bowl appearances, Calvin Johnson was drafted, retired, and made the Hall of Fame.
Or you can look up six posts
 

lexrageorge

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I don't know how you did that, but so cool!

Only 4 more rings to catch Henri Richard!
Or Bill Russell!
FWIW, Brady has now surpassed Whitey Ford (and many other former Yankees), Bryan Trottier, Larry Robinson, Jacques Plante, Mark Messier, Frank Mahovlich, Guy Lapointe, Glen Anderson, Ken Dryden (among others), Bob Cousy, Jordan, Pippen and Kareem.

Brady is now tied with:

Herb Pennock
Tommy Henrich
Johnny Murphy
Babe Ruth
Mickey Mantle
Hank Bauer
Jean-Guy Talbot
Serge Savard
Frank Ramsey
Jim Luscutoff
Robert Horry

With the next one, Brady would join the following with 8:

Lou Gehrig
Frank Crosetti
Phil Rizzuto
Bill Dickey
Maurice Richard
Jacques Lemaire
Red Kelly
Yvan Cournoyer
Tom Sanders
KC Jones
Tommy Heinsohn
John Havlicek

And, for those counting, we have the following with 9:

Joe DiMaggio
Claude Provost

The Ten Club:

Yogi Berra (MLB record)
The Other #4 (Jean Bealiveau)
Sam Jones

And, of course, with 11 are Henri Richard and Russell
 

BaseballJones

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So there's this lingering view among some (like Francesa) that Montana's 4-0 is always going to be better than whatever Brady can do, because Brady has lost some Super Bowls.

So when Brady won #4, he had lost 2, so he stood at 4-2. Montana was at 4-0 (obviously will always be at 4-0). So people argued that 4-0 is better than 4-2, because 4-0 is unblemished. Never mind the fact that the "2" represents two more trips to the Super Bowl. It's like a tennis player with 4 grand slam titles in 4 grand slam finals, compared with a player with 4 grand slam titles and 2 runner ups. The first guy doesn't have any slam final losses, but he also hasn't gotten to as many slam finals as the second guy, so I'd argue that the second guy has a better resumé.

But ok, at 4-2 vs. 4-0, I can at least see the argument for Montana. But when Brady won #5, now it's 5-2 vs. 4-0. Now Brady surpassed Montana. That swayed some. But not all. 4-0 is better than 5-2, they said. Then Brady lost and stood at 5-3 and that solidified it in their minds. But Brady would soon thereafter win #6. So 6-3 vs. 4-0. Now the gap in SB titles was widening, even though Brady had 3 losses.

At SOME point for even these skeptics, the sheer number of SB titles HAS to trump the 4-0 mark, right? Is SEVEN enough? I mean, it's one away from *doubling* Montana.

At what point do you guys think even the most skeptical people would, however grudgingly, admit Brady's superiority? How many titles would it take?
 

OurF'ingCity

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At what point do you guys think even the most skeptical people would, however grudgingly, admit Brady's superiority? How many titles would it take
Other than the QAnon-level kooks at Chiefs Planet (or others with similar vested interests, like the Saints fans pathetically trying to argue that Brees is somehow comparable), I think we’ve already reached this point.
 

Time to Mo Vaughn

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So there's this lingering view among some (like Francesa) that Montana's 4-0 is always going to be better than whatever Brady can do, because Brady has lost some Super Bowls.

So when Brady won #4, he had lost 2, so he stood at 4-2. Montana was at 4-0 (obviously will always be at 4-0). So people argued that 4-0 is better than 4-2, because 4-0 is unblemished. Never mind the fact that the "2" represents two more trips to the Super Bowl. It's like a tennis player with 4 grand slam titles in 4 grand slam finals, compared with a player with 4 grand slam titles and 2 runner ups. The first guy doesn't have any slam final losses, but he also hasn't gotten to as many slam finals as the second guy, so I'd argue that the second guy has a better resumé.

But ok, at 4-2 vs. 4-0, I can at least see the argument for Montana. But when Brady won #5, now it's 5-2 vs. 4-0. Now Brady surpassed Montana. That swayed some. But not all. 4-0 is better than 5-2, they said. Then Brady lost and stood at 5-3 and that solidified it in their minds. But Brady would soon thereafter win #6. So 6-3 vs. 4-0. Now the gap in SB titles was widening, even though Brady had 3 losses.

At SOME point for even these skeptics, the sheer number of SB titles HAS to trump the 4-0 mark, right? Is SEVEN enough? I mean, it's one away from *doubling* Montana.

At what point do you guys think even the most skeptical people would, however grudgingly, admit Brady's superiority? How many titles would it take?
Losing earlier in the playoffs doesn't make someone the better QB.
 

DeadlySplitter

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At what point do you guys think even the most skeptical people would, however grudgingly, admit Brady's superiority? How many titles would it take?
Never? Said people think last night Tom got the refs' help, or Reid was in on it, etc.

People will always find excuses to not believe something no matter how truthful.
 

OurF'ingCity

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Kliq

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I'm convinced that the Mathieu/Brady spat stemmed from Mathieu's interception getting called back due to the penalty, which is when him and Brady first when at it. Then Brady got Mathieu with the DPI to set up first and goal from the one, and Brown then cooked Mathieu on the quick route for the TD. Then I think Brady let Mathieu know that they were picking on his ass and he should keep his mouth shut.
 

rodderick

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Kind of lame that this needs to be negotiated out in the press. How many incidents like this get resolved quietly, you wonder?
I don't know why Mathieu was so salty over it, but I think he realized his tweet made it seem like Brady called him a slur so he deleted it, but now Brady kinda feels forced to respond. But also it's 2021, how are you just finding out Brady will get into your face and trash you if you bark at him?
 

Nick Kaufman

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I sure hope that Brady allowed a film crew to follow him around one of those seasons, so that we are able to watch the Last Dance: Brady Edition in 2042.
 

Quiddity

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Oct 14, 2008
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So there's this lingering view among some (like Francesa) that Montana's 4-0 is always going to be better than whatever Brady can do, because Brady has lost some Super Bowls.

So when Brady won #4, he had lost 2, so he stood at 4-2. Montana was at 4-0 (obviously will always be at 4-0). So people argued that 4-0 is better than 4-2, because 4-0 is unblemished. Never mind the fact that the "2" represents two more trips to the Super Bowl. It's like a tennis player with 4 grand slam titles in 4 grand slam finals, compared with a player with 4 grand slam titles and 2 runner ups. The first guy doesn't have any slam final losses, but he also hasn't gotten to as many slam finals as the second guy, so I'd argue that the second guy has a better resumé.

But ok, at 4-2 vs. 4-0, I can at least see the argument for Montana. But when Brady won #5, now it's 5-2 vs. 4-0. Now Brady surpassed Montana. That swayed some. But not all. 4-0 is better than 5-2, they said. Then Brady lost and stood at 5-3 and that solidified it in their minds. But Brady would soon thereafter win #6. So 6-3 vs. 4-0. Now the gap in SB titles was widening, even though Brady had 3 losses.

At SOME point for even these skeptics, the sheer number of SB titles HAS to trump the 4-0 mark, right? Is SEVEN enough? I mean, it's one away from *doubling* Montana.

At what point do you guys think even the most skeptical people would, however grudgingly, admit Brady's superiority? How many titles would it take?
I don't think it changes their minds, because to think that 4-0 > 4-2 when 4-0 really means you lost earlier in the playoffs two more times than the other guy (or didn't even make the playoffs) means either that you are so monumentally stupid that no amount of winning will ever change the opinion, or you are purposely doing it because you hate the guy who is 4-2.
 

Tokyo Sox

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At what point do you guys think even the most skeptical people would, however grudgingly, admit Brady's superiority? How many titles would it take?
Infinity wouldn't do it because nothing will convince those people who are still skeptical.
Other than the QAnon-level kooks at Chiefs Planet (or others with similar vested interests, like the Saints fans pathetically trying to argue that Brees is somehow comparable), I think we’ve already reached this point.
Never? Said people think last night Tom got the refs' help, or Reid was in on it, etc.

People will always find excuses to not believe something no matter how truthful.
Right, if people are still making this argument they are crazy, and will never be convinced, ever.

Montana played 16 years and made the playoffs 11 times (.688).
Brady is currently at 21 years and has made the playoffs 18 times (.857).
That's including Brady's rookie year in 2000, obviously if you take that out it's even better for Brady.

In those playoffs:
Montana went 16-7 (.696), with four 0-1's.
Brady is at 34-11 (.755) with only three 0-1's.

I had a buddy that kept Montana higher up until the Atlanta SB, and then even he relented on GOAT QB, but going into this season he still had Jerry Rice and Lawrence Taylor as better NFL players. Now he's finally on board with Brady as the GOAT football player. Anyone still holding out is engaging in willful blindness and self-delusion.
 

nattysez

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So there's this lingering view among some (like Francesa) that Montana's 4-0 is always going to be better than whatever Brady can do, because Brady has lost some Super Bowls.

So when Brady won #4, he had lost 2, so he stood at 4-2. Montana was at 4-0 (obviously will always be at 4-0). So people argued that 4-0 is better than 4-2, because 4-0 is unblemished. Never mind the fact that the "2" represents two more trips to the Super Bowl. It's like a tennis player with 4 grand slam titles in 4 grand slam finals, compared with a player with 4 grand slam titles and 2 runner ups. The first guy doesn't have any slam final losses, but he also hasn't gotten to as many slam finals as the second guy, so I'd argue that the second guy has a better resumé.

But ok, at 4-2 vs. 4-0, I can at least see the argument for Montana. But when Brady won #5, now it's 5-2 vs. 4-0. Now Brady surpassed Montana. That swayed some. But not all. 4-0 is better than 5-2, they said. Then Brady lost and stood at 5-3 and that solidified it in their minds. But Brady would soon thereafter win #6. So 6-3 vs. 4-0. Now the gap in SB titles was widening, even though Brady had 3 losses.

At SOME point for even these skeptics, the sheer number of SB titles HAS to trump the 4-0 mark, right? Is SEVEN enough? I mean, it's one away from *doubling* Montana.

At what point do you guys think even the most skeptical people would, however grudgingly, admit Brady's superiority? How many titles would it take?
I also think being able to point out that Joe wasn't able to carry KC the way Brady did TB is a killer for the Montana partisans. At this point, the "4-0 is better" crowd is running a "facts don't respect my feelings argument." Good luck and Godspeed with that.
 

CantKeepmedown

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These are the common themes you'll see in comment sections and other teams message boards.

The first 3 - defense and AV bailed him out. And they were cheating (spygate)
Seattle and ATL - idiot coaches handed him those rings
Rams and KC - defense bailed him out again

Then you have DFG. And he *gasp* kisses his son on the lips. Opposing fans HATE him. He'll never get the credit he deserves from a decent sized percentage of the country.
 

BaseballJones

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I also think being able to point out that Joe wasn't able to carry KC the way Brady did TB is a killer for the Montana partisans. At this point, the "4-0 is better" crowd is running a "facts don't respect my feelings argument." Good luck and Godspeed with that.
That's a great point. Both guys went to another franchise. Montana made the playoffs twice and reached an AFCCG (which is really good). Brady just won the whole thing.

Another interesting thing. Montana retired after his year 38 season. In Brady's 39-yr old through 43-yr old seasons, he's done this:

- Made the playoffs 5 years
- Won 4 division titles
- Reached his conference championship 4 times (won them all)
- Went to 4 Super Bowls
- Won 3 Super Bowls
- Went 58-18 (.763) during the regular season
- Went 12-3 (.800) in the playoffs
- Knocked off 3 league MVPs in the playoffs (Ryan in 2016, Mahomes in 2018, Rodgers in 2020)
- Won an MVP award (2017)
- Threw for 21,176 yards and 153 touchdowns in the regular season
- Threw for 4,492 yards and 27 touchdowns in the playoffs (15 games)

All that at an age after Montana retired. Remarkable.
 

Kliq

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These are the common themes you'll see in comment sections and other teams message boards.

The first 3 - defense and AV bailed him out. And they were cheating (spygate)
Seattle and ATL - idiot coaches handed him those rings
Rams and KC - defense bailed him out again

Then you have DFG. And he *gasp* kisses his son on the lips. Opposing fans HATE him. He'll never get the credit he deserves from a decent sized percentage of the country.
One thing I've noticed is the willful ignorance used to believe that Brady had nothing to do with the Seahawks victory because Butler made one play at the end of the game. Some people have decided to forget the two absolutely money drives Brady put together in the fourth quarter against one of the best secondaries of all time.
 

CantKeepmedown

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One thing I've noticed is the willful ignorance used to believe that Brady had nothing to do with the Seahawks victory because Butler made one play at the end of the game. Some people have decided to forget the two absolutely money drives Brady put together in the fourth quarter against one of the best secondaries of all time.
Yes, and 2nd half performance in the ATL game as well. Sure, the ATL coaches deserve their fair share of criticism, but there was no room for error (party due to Brady himself). Some of the throws he made on the final drive (and in OT) were otherworldly.

Oh yeah, I forgot he gets no credit for the AFCC win in KC because of the stupid offsides called on Dee Ford. It was the right call, of course. But that's just Brady being lucky. No mention of converting 3 straight 3rd and longs in OT.