Have they hinted at anything? He's been swinging a bat for a while. I would imagine it's mostly just a matter of him getting his timing down. Hopefully a week does the trick.
What does 2023 look like?
- Thread starter moondog80
- Start date
I'm picturing a spring training style ramp-up. So maybe the first game he plays 1-2 innings and gets a plate appearance. Then a day off, then maybe 3 innings and 2 PAs. Then a day off and 5 innings and 2-3 PA. And so on until he plays back to back full games. Maybe he DHs on a couple of those off-days just to get some more swings. I can see that taking 10-12 days overall. Twelve days would line up with the end of the team's next west coast trip (3 in SF, 3 in SEA) and allow him to suit up for the first game of the next home stand on Tuesday, August 4 against the Jays.
Sure, but he's not building up anything there. He's healthy, his arm is ready, he could play short in the majors tomorrow. Right? This sort of injury I would think had such a long recovery because he wasn't going to throw a baseball until he'd rebuilt all the muscles, regained the flexibility etc. And everyone says he's been gunning it in workouts.
I read somewhere, and cannot find where, that they want him to have exposure to a mix of different defensive plays -- throws from the hole, flips, turning two, charging the ball, etc. -- and that that would necessitate a bunch of innings in the field (since you can't really control what you see in any given inning).
Timing, footwork, other in game situations? No rust to knock off there considering he hasn't played SS in some 22 months?
Your two aces had pretty big clunkers and you still went 3-3 on technically a west coast trip. That's fine.
It's not good enough because they've gone 2-13 against the NL at home with 5 more coming up here, but this trip isn't the reason the season is on the edge.
It's not good enough because they've gone 2-13 against the NL at home with 5 more coming up here, but this trip isn't the reason the season is on the edge.
That’s the season so far in a nutshell…. Just cannot put away the teams they really should be able to. And can’t really make up significant ground because of it. Maddening
No, but it’s still frustrating to drop a series against the worst team in baseball, particularly considering Bello and Paxton were going.
Edit: I’m an idiot. Paxton didn’t pitch against the A’s
Edit: I’m an idiot. Paxton didn’t pitch against the A’s
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Sox finish the season series against Oakland 4-2. Tampa won their series with them 5-2. Tough to get too worked up over it, especially considering four of the six games were "bullpen" games.
Man, I wish I could be a sanguine as some of you. We’re in a dogfight to get the third WC spot and lost 2 of 3 to the As. It’s not the end of the world, but it’s not fine and it’s a badly blown opportunity.
Are they really in a dog fight for the third WC spot? This team has needed pitching help for weeks and management has done nothing to help with the problem. The good BP pitchers are pitching too much and the team will crash without some help. So does Bloom believe they are in a dogfight for a WC spot, or would he prefer that they fall back over the next week and trade for more lottery tickets?
The "bullpen" games have really just been Pivetta and Murphy games with someone else throwing an inning or two at the start. The worst pitched games in the last couple of weeks have been from Bello and Paxton, their two best starters. Not going out and getting some other chump to start hasn't been an issue so far.
They were 1.5 games out of the WC a few hours ago. They’re fighting for a spot.
What Bloom does is a different matter.
And all the other teams fighting for playoff positions have made great deals that Chaim wasn't ballsy enough to one-up.
C'mon man, you know how this works. Teams willing to trade legit starting pitchers are going to maximize their haul by waiting to the last day or two. I wish Chaim could trade for a 3rd or 4th starter now, but it would cost Mayer +.
From the 2023 Starter thread:
Greens are wins, Reds are losses, indents are notes and roster moves. Innings are 1(ish) with starter and significant long/short appearances noted.
July 14 @ Cubs Bello - Bello (6), Winckowski, Bernardino, Scott, Jansen (.1).
July 15 @ Cubs Paxton - Paxton (3), Scott, Rodriguez, Jacques, Walter (2).
Scott DFA'd (OAK), Jake Faria up from AAA, stretched out as a starter, last pitched 7/5.
July 16 @ Cubs Crawford - Crawford (6), Jacques, Faria (2 - 65 pitches).
Faria DFA'd (Worcester), Bleier off the IL
July 17 @ A’s Bullpen/Pivetta - Bernardino (2), Pivetta (6), Martin.
July 18 @ A’s Bullpen - Jacques, Murphy (4.2), Rodriguez, Bleier.
July 19 @ A’s Bello - Bello (4), Rodriguez, Winckowski (2), Jansen.
July 20 off
Basically, Paxton and Bello threw two stinkers, and Cora's enamored of Jacques who probably shouldn't have been pitched 3 times in 4 days.
It's an absolutely unacceptable outcome for a team on the fringes of a playoff spot.
That's 2023 Red Sox baseball in a nutshell.
Baseball is a weird, random sport. So I get that sometimes good teams lose to bad teams. But we’ve done that a lot, and we’re running out of time for it to keep happening.
I do think some folks are dug in on being “the reasonable fan” so their inclination is to shrug off series like that. But it sucked and was bad.
Good thing about baseball is that a team can right the ship quickly. Sweep the Mets and all is good.
I think both things can be true - I think this series sucked and was bad, but the reasonable part of me realizes that in the last 9 games I would never expect 8-1 to be the outcome, but 7-2 is what I was thinking. So finishing 1 game below that in a tiny sample just makes it hard to get too upset about.
I also think the next 5 games will be very telling: based on what we've seen this year from this team so far WRT their streakiness, the last 2 games seem like the start of another bad 8-10 game streak. If they can go 3-2 vs mets/braves and stabilize a bit after two disappointing losses I'll feel better about their ability to stay in the wild card hunt. Worth noting the mets have apparently been playing good baseball lately, 9-4 in july, I think a sweep of them will be extremely difficult.
edit: just to add, i struggle to take too much meaning from one series. no matter how well or poorly they play. Bigger picture wise they are an up and down, frustrating team. But per bbref since they fell to 33-35 and had about a 5% chance of making the postseason, theyve gone 18-11 and raised their chances to just over 32%.
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I hear ya, but when 6 games of the past 9 are against the As I don’t think hoping for 8-1 or 7-2 is outrageous. Especially when we absolutely need to make these layups if we want to stay in the race as the schedule gets harder.
I’m not pounding the table angry. I think some folks read that into every frustrated comment and overcorrect.
I think the bigger thing is they are what they are, a pretty good team that is prone to streaks, so "snapshots" are always tough.
Take the picture in a good streak and they're 5ish games over .500 and "trending in the right direction", take it in a bad one, and they're back 2 games below, the "truth" is somewhere in the middle.
They've been "good enough" against the AL East (which is brutal) and other good teams to make me think they COULD get to the playoffs and have a decent shot to win a round when they get there (unlike last year's team), but I don't think that is without acquiring at least one (and ideally two) capable offensive middle infielders and at least one more decent starting pitcher, and I'm not a believer in the "just wait for these injured guys" mindset.
I hope they go out and acquire a passable option (for this season) in the middle infield and an "alright" rental SP (something like getting DeJong and Montgomery of Flaherty from StL). If they're not going to do that, sell everything that won't be here next year at minimum. The team isn't good enough (now) to make the playoffs, but they could be with some minimal upgrades. But if the belief of the FO is that they're not worth investing in at the cost the market dictates, then they should absolutely cash in on Paxton and Turner.
Take the picture in a good streak and they're 5ish games over .500 and "trending in the right direction", take it in a bad one, and they're back 2 games below, the "truth" is somewhere in the middle.
They've been "good enough" against the AL East (which is brutal) and other good teams to make me think they COULD get to the playoffs and have a decent shot to win a round when they get there (unlike last year's team), but I don't think that is without acquiring at least one (and ideally two) capable offensive middle infielders and at least one more decent starting pitcher, and I'm not a believer in the "just wait for these injured guys" mindset.
I hope they go out and acquire a passable option (for this season) in the middle infield and an "alright" rental SP (something like getting DeJong and Montgomery of Flaherty from StL). If they're not going to do that, sell everything that won't be here next year at minimum. The team isn't good enough (now) to make the playoffs, but they could be with some minimal upgrades. But if the belief of the FO is that they're not worth investing in at the cost the market dictates, then they should absolutely cash in on Paxton and Turner.
Oh yeah I didnt get the sense you were at all for the record! Personally, I think hoping for 8-1 is totally fine, expecting that is a different thing though. And it feels like some people post as if that's the expectation against bad teams. And as I said, I did expect 7-2.
I’m not happy they didn’t at least go 2/3 against Oakland but I really can only accept it. You have another choice I don’t know about?
Hoping for 7-2 at the very least was reasonable.
The A's are now 27-71. That is a winning percentage of .276. Over the course of a full season it's 44-118.
Going 4-2 overall against them (.667 winning percentage) is underperforming given how bad the A's are. Losing a series against them 1-2 is vastly underperforming.
There is no possible way to look at the results of this series except as an immense disappointment which harms the team's playoff chances.
One would hope that they would take a hard look at this team and either make some necessary changes (no longer pitch Bello in day games, get Verdugo untracked by getting him back into the leadoff spot, address the woeful defense at some point) or sell hard for the rest of the season.
I certainly hope they won't throw up their hands and say "shit happens." It does not just happen. Mistakes were made that need correction. They blew a big opportunity this week to help themselves and that is very hard to take.
Sons of Evan Longoria was on fire when the Rays split a 4 game series with Oakland. Sons of Teddy Higuera was even worse when the Brewers got swept in 3 games.
It's disappointing to have dropped 2 of 3. But yes, shit happens. You know who overacted to every minor downturn within the ebb and flow, and made sure heads rolled? The 80s Yankees.
I'm onto the Mets.
It's disappointing to have dropped 2 of 3. But yes, shit happens. You know who overacted to every minor downturn within the ebb and flow, and made sure heads rolled? The 80s Yankees.
I'm onto the Mets.
MIL and TBR are solidly in playoff spots and thus can absorb a wasted opportunity against a historically horseshit team.
The Red Sox are not and can not. That to me is the quintessence of the 2023 season for this club. Extreme inconsistency and constant playing down to the level of their opposition. They aren't as bad as I'm making them sound, but they are nowhere as good as they think they are.
This is insane. The team has 4 healthy starters and you've decided that the youngest and possibly best can no longer pitch in day games because of 3 bad starts? Sometimes shit really does just happen, especially in smaller samples.
It's 5 bad starts. And yes, he should no longer pitch in day games for the remainder of this season. That is, if the team is at all serious about winning.
7.25 ERA in the day, 2.39 at night. And he's got 11 night starts so they split isn't some huge gap. He has allowed as many ER in 5 day starts as he has in 11 night starts (18).
If they want to have him work on day stuff, they can do that at the beginning of next year. Not now.
I have consistently been a huge proponent of putting players in the best position to succeed. This means I want Whitlock in the pen, Verdugo at leadoff, Story at 2B, and Bello in night games only. I remember being incensed when X was first breaking in that they did not put him at shortstop and just leave him there, they just messing around with his positions. That outlook has never wavered in all my years on this board, and I find it extremely frustrating when managers do not do this.
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For sure. When Paxton and Bello get whalloped there’s not much we can do. We need those two to be lights out for the rest of the season to have a real playoff shot.
I do think Chaim needs to add a starter ASAP. I hope he’s trying to do that and not dilly-dallying around, Cherington style. Every passing trip through the rotation is exacerbating the problem.
I agree there's a dire need for another starter.
But at what cost? Is this team really good enough to spend prospect capital on? I am not sure that it is. Bloom is in a tough spot, will he add a starter or give us the "Well Whitlock coming back is like adding a starter" (never mind Whitlock hasn't been a good starter). I don't know what he will do or should do.
Their margin for error decreases when they fail to make the most of golden opportunities in the schedule. If this were the first time they did poorly against a bad team, yeah sure. It would be an outlier. So far, they've been swept by Pittsburgh and St. Louis. Have losing record against Colorado (1/3). Their tendency to not take advantage of these series is maddening. It just makes the series against the contenders that much harder. They really have until August 18th to capitalize on a soft schedule. After that, only six games are against teams that are less than .500.
I’d give up a prospect(s) if it meant getting a decent SP who’s under control for 2024. I’m not nearly well versed enough in the SP trade market, or our farm system, to know if that’s feasible. But if it is then I’d do it.
Our starter problems aren’t going away.
That being said, for better or worse our playoff hopes really do rest on Houck and Whitlock and Sale coming back (and being decent). If they don’t, or they aren’t, we’re kinda finished.
I would be OK with trading a fringe 40 man guy and/or a deep lottery ticket for a rental. David Hamilton, Ryan Frernandez. You aren't getting Lucas Giolito with that, but maybe the equivalent of 2013 Jake Peavy?
This last A's series is exactly why we should not have any faith in this team. They are the definition of inconsistency. This team is going nowhere. On the very slight chance they make the final wild card, they will not go deep into the postseason. And as soon as they start playing more games in the division against significantly better teams they will fall back to a .500 record. Sell carefully and set yourself up to compete in a tough division for the next two years.
As frustrated as I am about the As series, I find this to be hyperbolic. We’re still only 2 games out of the last WC spot.
And it seems the competition for that spot is thinning. The Yankees are in a death spiral (hooray!), the Angels are gonna sell off everything not nailed down, Toronto can be as inconsistent as us, etc.
I reject the idea that we’re going nowhere. The Sox are very much in a playoff race. And I reject that they can’t make noise if they make the playoffs. I imagine that to make it means that we’ve gotten some combo of Sale/Houck/Whitlock back and pitching well. And/or we’ve made a move or two that panned out. If that’s the case then we have a team that has proven they can play great for a week or so. Which would get them a 2021 repeat, essentially.
Anyway, I for one will be righteously pissed if we give up on this season absent a total and utter collapse between now and the deadline.
That is EXACTLY where I'm at @8slim. The idea I keep circling back to (probably not feasible) is Dylan Cease for Yorke and Bleis. The ChiSox have said that Cease isn't available, but Yorke and Bleis aren't "available" either. This is the type of move I'd like to see made. Find someone to fill the top half of the rotation - with Bello - for the next 2 to 3 seasons.
Assuming a deal like that mentioned above isn't possible, for me at least, I think they absolutely must do something like @moondog80 suggested. I don't know / necessarily care what pitcher that is from players like Carrasco, Lynn, Hendricks, Wacha (if SD sells), or what. Those guys cannot cost more than fungible 40 man guys and would at least be a "name" to sell the clubhouse on that shouldn't be cost prohibitive.
If even that type of deal isn't coming either a) because it's too much of a seller's market or b) because the FO doesn't think this team is ready to spend that kind of "capital" on, then they absolutely need to sell. Just don't waste another deadline like last year.
Assuming a deal like that mentioned above isn't possible, for me at least, I think they absolutely must do something like @moondog80 suggested. I don't know / necessarily care what pitcher that is from players like Carrasco, Lynn, Hendricks, Wacha (if SD sells), or what. Those guys cannot cost more than fungible 40 man guys and would at least be a "name" to sell the clubhouse on that shouldn't be cost prohibitive.
If even that type of deal isn't coming either a) because it's too much of a seller's market or b) because the FO doesn't think this team is ready to spend that kind of "capital" on, then they absolutely need to sell. Just don't waste another deadline like last year.
This is not a knock at you, but I find the idea of "faith" or "confidence" or whatever personal adjective there is to be sort of useless, since the other side of the scale is "watch the games and enjoy the ride." Or maybe we'll hate the ride. But unless the lack of faith leads to "not watching, listening or paying anymore attention this year," its just not soemthing that resonates with me. (YMMV). (as oposed to "this sucks" or "its frustrating as Hell." THAT I get and share)
But I wonder how its possible to predict they'll start losing ground against "significantly better teams" in the division, when two of them aren't significantly better; and they've played one other of them quite well.
IMO this is fundamentally reactive thinking: if something seems to have broken, you will do anything to try to fix it, no matter what cascading issues that creates. While you might be right that the choices aren't ideal, the alternatives might be worse.
For example, ignoring the fact that Bello probably can fix this day-game-night-game issue and it's only 8 games over the last couple of years that we're drawing conclusions based on, let's say we should avoid him in day games. How do you actually make that happen? Do you have another pitcher start on shorter rest? What if that guy gets injured as a result of less rest? Where are you then? Do you plan the whole season ahead of time so he never piches a day game? How practical is that?
Story played his whole career at SS before coming here and was, uh, pretty good. He might not be elite anymore there defensively, but putting him at SS also allows us to field the best offense. But again, let's say it's better for him, somehow, to be at 2B. Where does that leave us? We have to start Chang or Reyes or Kike at SS, which leaves our offense with a guy who's as bad a pitcher at hitting, whereas putting Story at SS allows us to make Chang/Kike a back-up, run Arroyo at 2B the majority of the time, which improves the offense. (Honestly, of all of these complaints, The Story thing baffles me the most. The guy got his elbow reconstructed! If a pitcher had Tommy John, would you say he should stick to sitting on his couch because he was better at that while he was waiting for his arm to heal? No! He'd go back to pitching!)
The Whitlock in the pen thing might end up being true, but I'd also note it's worth trying to get him to sort things out there because a guy who can throw 150 innings is way more valuable to us than a guy who throws 60 or 70. He's also been there because Kluber and Pivetta were so bad as starters and have a track history of being so bad. I think when Houck and Sale come back it might be Whitlock to the pen, but they don't have that luxury right now, barring a trade for a SP, which I think would be a good call so long as the price isn't too high. They may also keep Pivetta/Murphy in a bulk role, given the success those two have had, and shrink-wrap Whitlock and Houck while they work back up to effectiveness, which would, I think, be prudent. But that doesn't mean I don't think in the long-run it's worth letting those guys try to be starters. They have starter's stuff, they were very effective as starter's in the minors and have had rough seasons but have had success as starter's in the bigs (and their peripherals indicate they've been unlucky), and letting them start gives them the best shot to throw the most innings, which is the best thing for the club.
How the games are lost play into how I feel. Their two best starters got beat up. Disappointing, but it happens. The offense has been miles better than it was, the team hasn't been laughable in the field compared to what they were not so long ago. They've been alert on the basepaths and capitalizing on other team's shitty play. Loses suck. Losing a series to Oakland sucks more, but the team is playing a much better brand of baseball than we've seen for most of the season.
I really am not trying to be a dick here. Honestly. But I don't understand. In the last two games they've been shut out once by the worst staff in baseball and committed 3 errors in that same game, and yesterday their so-called ace got pounded by the worst offense in baseball. The "worsts" are not exaggeration for effect, OAK is really dead last in both categories.
And this was on the heels of an impressive series win in Chicago.
If anything, the last few games have encapsulated the entire season so far. They lack consistency, they stink in the field and they play down to their opponents. That's the 2023 season.
Because even the worst offense or staff in baseball is filled with guys who are really, really, really talented and capable of harnessing that talent in short spurts. Luis Medina's fastball velocity is 86 %ile in MLB, his ERA stinks because he has a very high walk rate. But on Tuesday, he threw strikes, walked only one guy, and got great results. He's a rookie. Maybe he's developing.
The other guys are professionals too.
Of course they are, and it's easy to forget that given that Oakland is cruising towards a 44-118 season.
But the Red Sox are professionals as well, and they are better professionals than the fellows on Oakland, and they should have been beating the hell out of them routinely. And unfortunately wasting that opportunity to move up in the playoff race is entirely typical of the 2023 Red Sox. The only consistency they have is inconsistency.
In order for Bello to become a great starter, he needs to learn how to pitch effectively in day games. I agree with putting guys like Verdugo, Whitlock, and Story that have reached their ceilings in their best positions to help the team win games now.
However, the most important thing that can happen for this organization is Bello developing into a top of the rotation starter. Why not let him learn and develop when the 2023 team has very little chance of competing for a championship?