What does Red Sox starting pitching look like in 2024?

Big Papi's Mango Salsa

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The hoops you jump through to prop up other team's pitchers while denigrating the Red Sox ones are always impressive. You know the Red Sox also would have been a new team for Taillon, right? Who played in more of a hitters' park with a worse defense?

Also, those don't seem too different from Sale's 2nd half stats...

8 starts to the "tune" of a 3.92 ERA (3.85 xFIP), 1.05 WHIP and 3.88 k/bb ratio.

On the season, Sale was worth 2.1 fWAR (1.7 bWAR) & Taillon was worth 1.6 fWAR (-0.1 bWAR). But Taillon is someone we totally need & Sale is a scrub who should be nowhere near the rotation.
Obviously the Sox would have been a new team for Taillon as well. Though I'd project something along the lines of the 30 starts per season, 4.08ERA (4.16FIP), 1.163whip and 3.83 k/bb ratio he put up for NYY over two seasons to be about what I'd think he'd give the Sox. But he's not coming to Boston, so if you want I'll let you say whatever you'd like and I won't bring him up again. Since he was brought up elsewhere, and I advocated for his signing (after about half a dozen others), and he was ostensibly recruited by our new PoBO, I felt to be consistent I should address it.

But yes, I think the Sox starting pitching outside of Bello (whom I'll call a 2) and Crawford (whom I'll call a 4.5) is a dumpster fire.

8 starts is the key thing for Sale. He can't be depended upon. One GM already depended (multiple times) on a Sale return from injury to be a key part of the pitching staff, and I hope this one doesn't make the same mistake.


@chawson - for the record, I tend to agree that "elite starter at any cost" is better than Taillon. No doubt there. I hope the Sox feel the same and acquire pitchers thusly...

I also agree with you (I think we agree) about ONE slot going to someone like Crawford / Houck. Generally I think that for a big market team that ostensibly aspires for championships, a good rule of thumb is to have the 5th starter slot "open" for a promising player like you mentioned.

I think this year's rotation should be two acquired top half of the rotation starters, Bello, another acquired starter and "see which is more real, Houck or Crawford" with the other going to the 'pen (and to start the year, that's certainly Houck in my opinion). Crawford had a 4.51ERA, 1.189whip and 3.66 k/bb ratio in 23 starts last year. I think he's roughly the same as Taillon.

Truth be told, I would have bet on Houck over Crawford, but that's why you have two of those guys going after one spot, Crawford was far better as a starter than Houck. I'm in no way advocating kicking Crawford out of the rotation, to start the year. But if one expects him to be the "4th", so to speak, I think you need a lot more dependability out of you 1 and 3 than anything the Sox have (again, Bello is the 2 there).

Maybe the "5" is the 15 starts you get from Sale and another 15 for Houck to see if he can be made into a consistent starter under Breslow. But I don't at all think the idea of 1, Bello, Sale, Crawford, Houck is a recipe for success.

I can at least understanding rolling the dice on: 1, Bello, 3, Crawford, Chris Houck (15 starts before Sale gets hurt again, 15 starts for Houck) but that's about it. It's not what I would do, but I get it.


As to your question @Rovin Romine - my HOPE is that the Sox acquire 3 starting pitchers this off-season. 1 large FA signing (Yamamoto or Montgomery), 1 trade for a cost-controlled young SP, and someone to be a 4/5 along with Crawford, but with a longer track record of consistently being pretty decent.

My expectation is more in line with what I think @jon abbey posted a looooong while back (apologies if this was someone else) where it will instead be something Bello, sign "Stroman" (I like this), something like "ERod" (don't like this, mostly because the Sox need a SP that provides more than 150ip), Crawford and "Chris Houck.". I don't think this is enough to seriously contend for a championship, but I think it also puts you in contention for any of the wild cards and not just "hope everything breaks right and sneak into the 3rd spot."

I would have preferred staggering the pitching acquisitions over multiple off-seasons so that you were consistently rolling that 5th spot to "try out" a couple of prospects, but a) that ship has sailed and b) the Sox really don't have prospects that can be depended on to do that starting 2024 and probably not starting 2025 either (there I'm just going with Sox Prospects and projecting Gonzalez as middle of 2025 and Perales as 2026, if someone thinks Gonzalez will be ready for 2025, that'd be grand, but I have no idea, so I'm going with SP).
 
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JM3

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Obviously the Sox would have been a new team for Taillon as well. Though I'd project something along the lines of the 30 starts per season, 4.08ERA (4.16FIP), 1.163whip and 3.83 k/bb ratio he put up for NYY over two seasons to be about what I'd think he'd give the Sox. But he's not coming to Boston, so if you want I'll let you say whatever you'd like and I won't bring him up again. Since he was brought up elsewhere, and I advocated for his signing (after about half a dozen others), and he was ostensibly recruited by our new PoBO, I felt to be consistent I should address it.

But yes, I think the Sox starting pitching outside of Bello (whom I'll call a 2) and Crawford (whom I'll call a 4.5) is a dumpster fire.

8 starts is the key thing for Sale. He can't be depended upon. One GM already depended (multiple times) on a Sale return from injury to be a key part of the pitching staff, and I hope this one doesn't make the same mistake.


@chawson - for the record, I tend to agree that "elite starter at any cost" is better than Taillon. No doubt there. I hope the Sox feel the same and acquire pitchers thusly...

I also agree with you (I think we agree) about ONE slot going to someone like Crawford / Houck. Generally I think that for a big market team that ostensibly aspires for championships, a good rule of thumb is to have the 5th starter slot "open" for a promising player like you mentioned.

I think this year's rotation should be two acquired top half of the rotation starters, Bello, another acquired starter and "see which is more real, Houck or Crawford" with the other going to the 'pen (and to start the year, that's certainly Houck in my opinion). Crawford had a 4.51ERA, 1.189whip and 3.66 k/bb ratio in 23 starts last year. I think he's roughly the same as Taillon.

Truth be told, I would have bet on Houck over Crawford, but that's why you have two of those guys going after one spot, Crawford was far better as a starter than Houck. I'm in no way advocating kicking Crawford out of the rotation, to start the year. But if one expects him to be the "4th", so to speak, I think you need a lot more dependability out of you 1 and 3 than anything the Sox have (again, Bello is the 2 there).

Maybe the "5" is the 15 starts you get from Sale and another 15 for Houck to see if he can be made into a consistent starter under Breslow. But I don't at all think the idea of 1, Bello, Sale, Crawford, Houck is a recipe for success.

I can at least understanding rolling the dice on: 1, Bello, 3, Crawford, Chris Houck (15 starts before Sale gets hurt again, 15 starts for Houck) but that's about it. It's not what I would do, but I get it.


As to your question @Rovin Romine - my HOPE is that the Sox acquire 3 starting pitchers this off-season. 1 large FA signing (Yamamoto or Montgomery), 1 trade for a cost-controlled young SP, and someone to be a 4/5 along with Crawford, but with a longer track record of consistently being pretty decent.

My expectation is more in line with what I think @jon abbey posted a looooong while back (apologies if this was someone else) where it will instead be something Bello, sign "Stroman" (I like this), something like "ERod" (don't like this, mostly because the Sox need a SP that provides more than 150ip), Crawford and "Chris Houck.". I don't think this is enough to seriously contend for a championship, but I think it also puts you in contention for any of the wild cards and not just "hope everything breaks right and sneak into the 3rd spot."

I would have preferred staggering the pitching acquisitions over multiple off-seasons so that you were consistently rolling that 5th spot to "try out" a couple of prospects, but a) that ship has sailed and b) the Sox really don't have prospects that can be depended on to do that starting 2024 and probably not starting 2025 either (there I'm just going with Sox Prospects and projecting Gonzalez as middle of 2025 and Perales as 2026, if someone thinks Gonzalez will be ready for 2025, that'd be grand, but I have no idea, so I'm going with SP).
You're obviously welcome to talk about whatever you want. Your perspective just comes off as really skewed toward other team's pitchers & against ours & using all kinds of negative adjectives about how awful our pitching when it was basically middle of the pack when adjusting for park (& considering we had by far the worst defense in baseball).

Does it need to be better to be a contender? Of course, but spending money on mediocrity isn't the solution to that because we already have cheap mediocrity.
 

Big Papi's Mango Salsa

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What adjective would you use to describe our pitching? My guess is "unlucky" but at a certain level, but after 5 years, the stats are what they are and I think they've been really bad. (The Sox have finished in the top half in ERA once in 5 seasons - finishing exactly 15th in 2021. The others have been 19th and all in the 20s). I suppose I think that after 5 seasons of being "unlucky" it's more likely there is a flaw in the plan than just chalking it up to bad luck.

I tend to think that they don't even have "cheap mediocrity", outside of Crawford (I believe right around4.35 was an average ERA last year - simply based of Jhony Brito having a 4.28 ERA and being a 101ERA+) so the starting version of Crawford (4.51ERA) was technically below average, but I'm bumping him up into the "mediocre" category because of how atrocious the defense was, even though I do not know his FIP strictly as a starting pitcher, I'm going to assume he was average or even a little bit better.


They have a cheap "really good" option (Bello). They have a cheap "mediocre" option in Crawford. I don't think they have anything that can be reasonably projected as "mediocre or better" and "dependable" outside of those two. They have a very expensive pitcher that is "good" but probably shouldn't be banked on for more than 15 starts. So you're looking at needing to fill probably 3 spots in the rotation (say 30 games each for Bello and Crawford, 15 for Sale leaves 87 starts to be filled. Personally I'd take the "under" on 15 starts from Sale, but I can see why someone would project 15).

If they want to fill those with Yamamoto, Montgomery and Stroman I'd be thrilled, but I don't think that's realistic. So in at least one slot, and possibly two, they're probably going to have to either a) pay up for mediocrity or b) settle for more bad pitching.
 
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JM3

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What adjective would you use to describe our pitching? My guess is "unlucky" but at a certain level, the stats are what they are and I think they've been really bad.

I tend to think that they don't even have "cheap mediocrity", outside of Crawford (I believe right around4.35 was an average ERA last year - simply based of Jhony Brito having a 4.28 ERA and being a 101ERA+) so the starting version of Crawford (4.51ERA) was technically below average, but I'm bumping him up into the "medicore" category because of how atrocious the defense was, even though I do not know his FIP strictly as a starting pitcher, I'm going to assume he was average or even a little bit better.


They have a cheap "really good" option (Bello). They have a cheap "mediocre" option in Crawford. I don't think they have anything that can be reasonably projected as "mediocre or better" and "dependable" outside of those two. They have a very expensive pitcher that is "good" but probably shouldn't be banked on for more than 15 starts. So you're looking at needing to fill probably 3 spots in the rotation (say 30 games each for Bello and Crawford, 15 for Sale leaves 87 starts to be filled).

If they want to fill those with Yamamoto, Montgomery and Stroman I'd be thrilled, but I don't think that's realistic. So in at least one slot, and possibly two, they're probably going to have to either a) pay up for mediocrity or b) settle for more bad pitching.
Mid.

But I prefer to use stats & look at the pitching profiles for our guys & figure out what they're actually contributing & what they can contribute moving forward rather than simply describing them as atrocious & moving on, while using cherry-picked stats to justify bringing in other people to replace them.

Pitcher A: 4.84 ERA, 4.77 xERA, 4.61 FIP, 4.49 xFIP, 1.28 WHIP, 3.41 k/bb

Pitcher B: 4.91 ERA, 3.71 xERA, 3.70 FIP, 4.07 xFIP, 1.41 WHIP, 2.88 k/bb

One guy is 32 & makes $17m per year, the other guy is 25 & makes the minimum for a few more years & is currently 7th on your depth chart before you even add anyone else to your abominable pitching staff.
 

JimD

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I just figured Boras was having Heyman float the YY West coast thing to drive up Montgomery and Snell prices along the eastern seaboard.
I'm pretty sure that MLB front offices are savvy to such attempts at manipulation by now.
 

Big Papi's Mango Salsa

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Yeah, I know you're a Murphy fan (ie, pitcher B). I think there is something to be said for Taillon's career consistency and Murphy providing that in less than 50ip as a 25 year old in his first taste of the majors, but I don't mind the idea of Muprhy vying for the 5th slot.

I'd prefer seeing what he and Houck have in a battle for 5 with Sale moved, but that is just me. I don't think the idea of trotting out Sale, Murphy, Houck and lets say Pivetta to cover spots 3 and 5 is a recipe for success though.

(My guess is that with two seasons in AAA of a 5.84ERA, 1.317whip and 2.55 k/bb ratio Murphy might get exposed a good bit at the MLB level as a starting pitcher. It might have already happened since his 2nd half of 14 games with a 6.39ERA and 1.484whip look a lot more like what one might expect from someone of his AAA numbers moving to the bigs, but there you're taking small sample sizes and making them smaller. Though I can absolutely see giving him the chance - at least if you have a lot more certainty in the 1-4 spots.)

Yamamoto, Bello, Montgomery, Crawford, "Sale/Houck/Pivetta/Murphy" I'm totally in on. But our top half of the rotation looks nothing like that.
 
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chawson

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Mid.

But I prefer to use stats & look at the pitching profiles for our guys & figure out what they're actually contributing & what they can contribute moving forward rather than simply describing them as atrocious & moving on, while using cherry-picked stats to justify bringing in other people to replace them.

Pitcher A: 4.84 ERA, 4.77 xERA, 4.61 FIP, 4.49 xFIP, 1.28 WHIP, 3.41 k/bb

Pitcher B: 4.91 ERA, 3.71 xERA, 3.70 FIP, 4.07 xFIP, 1.41 WHIP, 2.88 k/bb

One guy is 32 & makes $17m per year, the other guy is 25 & makes the minimum for a few more years & is currently 7th on your depth chart before you even add anyone else to your abominable pitching staff.
Breslow is going to look like a pitching genius when our team ERA drops a full run next year (while Cora plays Story at SS, Rafaela in CF, and Drury/Rodgers/McNeil at 2B).
 

chrisfont9

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One guy's off the board and suddenly we're playing catch up to EVERYONE else? Considering the Breslow hire and that he was brought in for his very clear philosophy on pitching and the reports that he's bringing in Andrew Bailey I would be more hopeful than concerned that one guy is off the board. If Yamamoto is the primary target, do you opt for another guy just to be first? Also if it is true that Nola wanted to stay in Philly, was he ever really on the board?
My reaction was "OK, Philly is off the list of high-end suitors for Yamamoto now"
 

JM3

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Yeah, I know you're a Murphy fan (ie, pitcher B).

I'd actually prefer "Salurphy" as the 5th starter (well, I'd technically "prefer" moving Sale for whatever you can get and just out and making that Tanner Murphy). If 1, 2 and 3 were solid above average pitchers that could be reasonably projected for around 30 starts in 2024 I'd be totally on board with that plan.

(My guess is that with two seasons in AAA of a 5.84ERA, 1.317whip and 2.55 k/bb ratio Murphy might get exposed a good bit at the MLB level as a starting pitcher. But I can see giving him the chance - at least if you have a lot more certainty in the 1-4 spots.)

Yamamoto, Bello, Montgomery, Crawford, "Salurphy" I'm totally in on. But our top half of the rotation looks nothing like that.
I'm not even really a Murphy guy. He's going to have to take a couple more jumps to be a good pitcher, & I'm not sure he has it in him. But spending 23x as much for similar production from a guy on the down side of his career seems silly when Murphy will probably be no higher than their 8th starter this year.

But I'll take stuff over "has pitched a lot of innings the last few years" any day because you aren't winning the World Series by having a guy pitch a lot of meh innings. You're winning it by getting to the playoffs & then having guys who can actually pitch well enough to make an impact.
 

NickEsasky

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And (fake edit, echoing JM3's post), I think you're discounting Sale a little too heavily. I get that everyone's done with him, but he did put up 102 innings with roughly the same xFIP as Jesus Luzardo, Bobby Miller and Logan Gilbert. His injury history is a running joke, but there's more reason than not to expect he'll contribute at a solid level.
He's been injured every year for the last few. Why is there more reason than not to expect he'll contribute at a solid level? Unless you just mean for the two months out of next year he may be healthy.
 

JM3

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He's been injured every year for the last few. Why is there more reason than not to expect he'll contribute at a solid level? Unless you just mean for the two months out of next year he may be healthy.
He's currently healthy at the end of the season, which is a departure from every year since 2018 with the possible exception of 2021. So he has a decent chance of being able to work on a more standard regimen, strengthening, and being fully prepared for the next season. In his last 3 starts, Sale pitched 16 innings, allowing 2 runs (1.13 ERA) on 8 hits & 4 walks (0.75 WHIP) with 19 strikeouts (10.7 k/9). There is of course no guarantee of future health, but starting in a place of health makes it significantly more likely that good health will continue. Even though obviously it may not as he still has a violent delivery & is getting older.
 

chawson

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He's been injured every year for the last few. Why is there more reason than not to expect he'll contribute at a solid level? Unless you just mean for the two months out of next year he may be healthy.
He had Tommy John, like many pitchers do, and had two freak injuries (line drive and uhh, bike crash), before last year's shoulder issue. He hasn't been appreciably more injury prone to his arm or shoulder over the last few years than say, Eovaldi or Verlander or a number of other pitchers people are mad we didn't acquire.
 

SouthernBoSox

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Fox sports odds on Yam:
New York Mets: +220 (bet $10 to win $32)
Boston Red Sox: +400 (bet $10 to win $50)
Los Angeles Dodgers: +450 (bet $10 to win $55)
New York Yankees: +550 (bet $10 to win $65)
Chicago Cubs: +600 (bet $10 to win $70)
San Francisco Giants: +900 (bet $10 to win $100)
This feels very accurate. I know we want him and need him in a bad way, but the Mets are sitting their lurking with the possible make him an offer you can’t refuse mindset.
 

JM3

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sezwho

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This feels very accurate. I know we want him and need him in a bad way, but the Mets are sitting there lurking with the possible make him an offer you can’t refuse mindset.
Agree the Mets simply have to be leaders in the ‘money no object’ category, but they literally just traded future HoF pitchers in Scherzer and Verlander. That’s a weird environment to sign into for stability and winning, not that the Sox are in the catbird seat here either sadly. It’s dodgers to lose unless they’re all in on bats like Ohtani and or Trout instead.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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Agree the Mets simply have to be leaders in the ‘money no object’ category, but they literally just traded future HoF pitchers in Scherzer and Verlander. That’s a weird environment to sign into for stability and winning, not that the Sox are in the catbird seat here either sadly. It’s dodgers to lose unless they’re all in on bats like Ohtani and or Trout instead.
I don't know that the Scherzer and Verlander trades will have any impact at all. Both were on short deals (signed through this coming season) and are at the end of their careers. They were short-term, win-now signings and the team wasn't winning so they cashed out. Yamamoto would not be a win-now signing (though he certainly helps them immediately). He's going to be signed for the long haul. He probably has the leverage to negotiate a no-trade if he's concerned about being uprooted too quickly. If he wants the biggest payout he can get and the Mets are offering it, he'll sign there without hesitation.
 

Big Papi's Mango Salsa

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Agree the Mets simply have to be leaders in the ‘money no object’ category, but they literally just traded future HoF pitchers in Scherzer and Verlander. That’s a weird environment to sign into for stability and winning, not that the Sox are in the catbird seat here either sadly. It’s dodgers to lose unless they’re all in on bats like Ohtani and or Trout instead.
In a lot of ways, I've been in this "camp" on Yamamoto for a good while. As in, when it's all said and done, I think there are multiple teams that will throw as much money as the Red Sox at Yamamoto, and probably at least one (Cohen) that will tell the agent that he will beat whatever another team offers. So at a simple point it probably comes down to where the pitcher would prefer to be, and I don't necessarily think of Boston, in the current iteration of where the franchise is, winning that battle over New York or LA.

Which in many ways is why I'd like to see the Red Sox strike early on somebody else. I wonder if they'd get a straight answer from Boras if they simply asked him "what does it take to get Montgomery signed now?", and I'd probably give it to him. Based on the fact that, at least from my perception of Boras, I think that number now would probably be lower than it would be in a hypothetical situation of AFTER Yamamoto has signed elsewhere. I could of course be wrong, but that's just my guess on his negotiating stance.

Now, even he sometimes loses out on what he wants and ends up having a pitcher sign for less later in the off-season. But those losses seem to be few and far between, and I think the Red Sox are in too rough a spot pitching wise to play that game of brinkmanship.

Which, again, is not an enviable place to be in. But with Nola off the table, I'd want to have Montgomery in the fold before Yamamoto makes a decision. Both to show Yamamoto the Red Sox are serious about actually being contenders again (assuming they'd still want him) AND to make sure you're not looking at Boras realizing that the Sox options to add a 1 via free agency are down to "just" his starters or bust.
 

Petagine in a Bottle

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Montgomery makes me pretty nervous- he’s 31 years old with exactly one ten win season under his belt. Then again, one of his most similar comps is Zach Wheeler and that’s worked out well. But he’s got a relatively light career resume for a guy about to get $150M.
 

jon abbey

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Montgomery makes me pretty nervous- he’s 31 years old with exactly one ten win season under his belt. Then again, one of his most similar comps is Zach Wheeler and that’s worked out well. But he’s got a relatively light career resume for a guy about to get $150M.
Somehow his team never scores runs for him or wins his games (until this postseason anyway). He had a great season this year, a 3.20 ERA in 32 starts, 4.1 bWAR, but his team went just 11-21 in the regular season games he started, 7-14 for STL, 4-7 for TEX, (4-2 in the postseason). I'm not sure how much this matters but it was true in NY too, the bats always seemed to take the day off with him on the mound.
 

Petagine in a Bottle

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Somehow his team never scores runs for him or wins his games (until this postseason anyway). He had a great season this year, a 3.20 ERA in 32 starts, 4.1 bWAR, but his team went just 11-21 in the regular season games he started, 7-14 for STL, 4-7 for TEX, (4-2 in the postseason). I'm not sure how much this matters but it was true in NY too, the bats always seemed to take the day off with him on the mound.
Fair enough, and I know wins are a dumb metric. He just seems to not have done a lot for a guy who is not particularly young and is going to get paid a ton. Granted to some extenuating circumstances there (like the 2020 season). I guess we are also at the stage, due to a lot of changes in the game, where this is what a decent FA starters resume looks like.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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Montgomery makes me pretty nervous- he’s 31 years old with exactly one ten win season under his belt. Then again, one of his most similar comps is Zach Wheeler and that’s worked out well. But he’s got a relatively light career resume for a guy about to get $150M.
Wins is an odd barometer to use in this era. He's had three consecutive seasons of 30+ starts and 150+ innings during which he's posted a collective 3.42 ERA, 3.62 FIP, and 1.184 WHIP. That's a pretty good pitcher.
 

jon abbey

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Fair enough, and I know wins are a dumb metric. He just seems to not have done a lot for a guy who is not particularly young and is going to get paid a ton. Granted to some extenuating circumstances there (like the 2020 season). I guess we are also at the stage, due to a lot of changes in the game, where this is what a decent FA starters resume looks like.
I mean, NY traded him at the deadline in 2022 because they had essentially clinched the division already and they didn't think he would crack the postseason four man rotation (Cole, Cortes, Severino, Taillon), and it made sense at the time (and they badly needed what Bader could potentially bring).
 

Petagine in a Bottle

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Wins is an odd barometer to use in this era. He's had three consecutive seasons of 30+ starts and 150+ innings during which he's posted a collective 3.42 ERA, 3.62 FIP, and 1.184 WHIP. That's a pretty good pitcher.
No doubt he’s a pretty good pitcher, he’s just about to be paid like a great one. In a world where there are fewer good starters than ever, though, I fully admit I may be the one who needs to recalibrate expectations. Historically, it’s abnormal for a highly touted FA of his age to have such a light resume but given the changes in the game, this will likely be more of the norm going forward, that’s all.
 

chawson

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Montgomery makes me pretty nervous- he’s 31 years old with exactly one ten win season under his belt. Then again, one of his most similar comps is Zach Wheeler and that’s worked out well. But he’s got a relatively light career resume for a guy about to get $150M.
I like Montgomery, but there’s gotta be a point at which it would make sense to pivot to E-Rod. They’re not dissimilar at all, and the latter (may) have a smaller market for reportedly personal reasons.

Amusing to think what might have been had Bloom just given E-Rod 5/$80 million to begin with!

I also think we’re still overlooking Paxton. He’s come to symbolize a collective disappointment with the 2023 deadline and Bloom’s dismissal. But after a solid half-season after three years off, it doesn’t seem far-fetched for him to have a good 120-130 innings or so of the good Paxton in 2024.
 

deythur

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I like Montgomery, but there’s gotta be a point at which it would make sense to pivot to E-Rod. They’re not dissimilar at all, and the latter (may) have a smaller market for reportedly personal reasons.

Amusing to think what might have been had Bloom just given E-Rod 5/$80 million to begin with!

I also think we’re still overlooking Paxton. He’s come to symbolize a collective disappointment with the 2023 deadline and Bloom’s dismissal. But after a solid half-season after three years off, it doesn’t seem far-fetched for him to have a good 120-130 innings or so of the good Paxton in 2024.
Is Paxton still on the team? I thought they declined his option.
 

JM3

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Is Paxton still on the team? I thought they declined his option.
The Red Sox wisely turned down a 2/$26m option on Paxton & then Paxton accepted his 1/$4m player option.

But yeah, now he's a free agent. I think chawson was referring to the possibility of bringing him back at a reasonable price.
 

Petagine in a Bottle

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Paxton finishing the year hurt feels like a non-starter to me. Would be a pretty risky move for Breslow to make, needs to be bigger / bolder. I assume there is a reason the team didn’t make much of an effort to bring back E-Rod the first time around, so I’m skeptical he’d been an option either.

If they miss out on Yamamoto, may be better served waiting a bit to see if there’s anyone of the Gray, Snell, Montgomery, Stroman group who is left? Certainly some risk in waiting esp for a new GM.

Trading for Burnes and signing a Wacha or Lugo wouldn’t be terrible.
 

deythur

New Member
The Red Sox wisely turned down a 2/$26m option on Paxton & then Paxton accepted his 1/$4m player option.

But yeah, now he's a free agent. I think chawson was referring to the possibility of bringing him back at a reasonable price.
Ahh gotcha. Thanks for the clarification. Id be for bringing him back as well but in the 4/5 slot not the 2/3 slot.
 

chawson

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Paxton finishing the year hurt feels like a non-starter to me. Would be a pretty risky move for Breslow to make, needs to be bigger / bolder. I assume there is a reason the team didn’t make much of an effort to bring back E-Rod the first time around, so I’m skeptical he’d been an option either.

If they miss out on Yamamoto, may be better served waiting a bit to see if there’s anyone of the Gray, Snell, Montgomery, Stroman group who is left? Certainly some risk in waiting esp for a new GM.

Trading for Burnes and signing a Wacha or Lugo wouldn’t be terrible.
Was Paxton hurt? He seemed done, like fatigued. IL-ing him with "inflammation" after getting bombed three straight starts with diminished velocity seemed like a face-saving measure for both parties. Personally think his true-talent level is higher than Wacha or Lugo, though the home runs can be a bit of a problem. He was excellent for 70 innings (13 starts) before the velocity dropped from 95-96 to 93-94. The extra days' rest, when he got them, really seemed to help. It's possible he's got nothing left in the tank, but I'd doubt that.

Anyway, I'm all for bigger and bolder and I'm sure that's what we'll get. It seems like a lot of the fan base is expecting something like

SP1 one of Montgomery / Yamamoto / Rodriguez / Snell
SP2 Sale
SP3 one of Burnes / Bieber / Cease / Keller / Ray, et al. (via trade)
SP4 Bello
SP5 Crawford

I think there should also be a
SP6 one of Paxton / Mahle / Montas / Junis / Turnbull

Use money to nab a rehabbing starter in that SP6 tier so that you can trade Pivetta. Pivetta is a fine back-end rotation option but whatever he gets in a trade is better for us long-term.
 

Petagine in a Bottle

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If Paxton tired after 70 innings, though, what’s a reasonable expectation in 2024? If the team wants to contend they can’t have too many pitchers who are gassed by August 1, which was clearly a problem this past year. Paxton is fine; but we’ve already got several guys who profile similarly IMO.
 

chawson

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If Paxton tired after 70 innings, though, what’s a reasonable expectation in 2024? If the team wants to contend they can’t have too many pitchers who are gassed by August 1, which was clearly a problem this past year. Paxton is fine; but we’ve already got several guys who profile similarly IMO.
With young and still-developing pitchers it’s a 20 to 30 percent increase industry wide (with variation), but that’s not hard science and imperfectly applied to a 34 year old who barely played the sport for three years.

We’d also have to factor that Paxton threw 22 minor league innings before being promoted to Boston, bringing his total to 118 IP and 92 by his first August start, which is when I’d say the wheels started coming off (though his second August start was six scoreless).

So, back of napkin, if a team gets 120 to 130 innings of the pitcher Paxton was to that point (3.34 ERA; 3.57 xFIP), how much is that worth?
 

Big Papi's Mango Salsa

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Anyway, I'm all for bigger and bolder and I'm sure that's what we'll get. It seems like a lot of the fan base is expecting something like

SP1 one of Montgomery / Yamamoto / Rodriguez / Snell
SP2 Sale
SP3 one of Burnes / Bieber / Cease / Keller / Ray, et al. (via trade)
SP4 Bello
SP5 Crawford

I think there should also be a
SP6 one of Paxton / Mahle / Montas / Junis / Turnbull
I think @Rovin Romine nailed it when talking about the difference between what we as fans HOPE the Sox will do and what our EXPECTATIONS are.

I hope for something approaching what you've laid out, just more like Montgomery (because I don't think YY is going to happen), Bello, Cease, Crawford and some iteration of Ryu, Maeda, Mahle, Montas, Murphy, Houck and sure, and if one wants, throw Paxton in there too.

However what I actually expect to happen is more like Bello, Rodriguez, Imanaga, Crawford, 12 starts from Sale and the rest from Pivetta, Murphy and Houck.
 

Yo La Tengo

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Question related to Yamamoto and Ohtani: has there ever been another player who will receive a record setting contract who had so much uncertainty about future performance?
 

jon abbey

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Question related to Yamamoto and Ohtani: has there ever been another player who will receive a record setting contract who had so much uncertainty about future performance?
I'm not sure how much 'certainty' beforehand matters in cases like Strasburg and Rendon (tied for the 10th largest contract ever), everyone is human. Personally I was 'certain' (seriously) that Carl Crawford would be awesome in BOS, but that was, um, not correct.
 

Yo La Tengo

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I'm not sure how much 'certainty' beforehand matters in cases like Strasburg and Rendon (tied for the 10th largest contract ever), everyone is human. Personally I was 'certain' (seriously) that Carl Crawford would be awesome in BOS, but that was, um, not correct.
Injuries happen, so, obviously, there is uncertainty baked into every contract. Isn't the difference that Rendon and Strasburg got injured after they signed their huge contracts? I can't think of another example of a player who is currently injured signing a massive free agent contract.
And every player who has not played previously in MLB has some amount of uncertaintly, but Yamamoto's contract is going to dwarf everything that came before it. That is in large part due to the change in way a team negotiates with the player, so it is hard to compare Yamamoto's deal with other Japanese pitchers. Which brings me back to my original point: the contracts for Ohtani and Yamamoto are going to be unprecedented and both come with huge question marks.
 

Yo La Tengo

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A bit more about Yamamoto's forthcoming contract. It looks like there have been 23 MLB contracts of ten or more years. Only one for a pitcher: Wayne Garland. He was 26 years old and went 20-7 with 2.68 ERA, pitching for Baltimore without a contract for the season. Cleveland signed him to a 10 year, $2.3 million dollar deal. He threw 282 innings the next year and missed big chunks of the next four years before being released in 1981.

Thinking about which recent 25 year old pitchers would have received a 10 year deal if they were free agents. Pedro would have to be at the top of the list for best 10 year windows. Gerrit Cole is on pace for an excellent age 25-35 stretch. Verlander and Scherzer would be near the top. DeGrom and Strasburg provide a counterbalance while names like Mark Prior and Kerry Wood hang over this idea of a 10 year contract for a pitcher. Again, this is unprecedented territory.
 

JM3

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A bit more about Yamamoto's forthcoming contract. It looks like there have been 23 MLB contracts of ten or more years. Only one for a pitcher: Wayne Garland. He was 26 years old and went 20-7 with 2.68 ERA, pitching for Baltimore without a contract for the season. Cleveland signed him to a 10 year, $2.3 million dollar deal. He threw 282 innings the next year and missed big chunks of the next four years before being released in 1981.

Thinking about which recent 25 year old pitchers would have received a 10 year deal if they were free agents. Pedro would have to be at the top of the list for best 10 year windows. Gerrit Cole is on pace for an excellent age 25-35 stretch. Verlander and Scherzer would be near the top. DeGrom and Strasburg provide a counterbalance while names like Mark Prior and Kerry Wood hang over this idea of a 10 year contract for a pitcher. Again, this is unprecedented territory.
DeGrom is a bit weird because his career didn't start until he was 26...but he earned 42.6 fWAR during that period. So I guess it depends on how much you paid him. Strasburg only hit 25.9.
 

JM3

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The Wayne Garland 10 year/$2.3m contract coming off 1 season of competent starting is pretty funny.

“He said, ‘Wayne, I didn’t get you a million dollars,”’ Garland recalled recently. “I said, ‘Jerry, I’m sure you did the best you could.’ He said, ‘You got a 10-year contract for over $2 million.’ I said, ‘Jerry, I’m not worth it.’ He said, ‘Well, obviously someone thinks you are.”’
Garland says he and Kapstein discussed the possibility of a five-year deal worth a million. Then came Cleveland’s offer. He called his mom and broke the news to her, just as Kapstein had broken it to him.

“I said, ‘I didn’t get my million.’ She said, ‘Money’s not everything.’ I said, ‘I got two million.’ She said, ‘You’re not worth it.’
https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1988-03-20-sp-2144-story.html

In 1977, Mike Schmidt was the highest paid player at $560k. In 1985, Mike Schmidt was again the highest paid player at $2.1m before Jim Rice took over for a couple years.

https://sabr.org/research/article/mlbs-annual-salary-leaders-since-1874/

Garland put up 5 fWAR for his $2.3m, 4.1 of which was in 1977.

I enjoy that Garland was complaining about how high baseball salaries were in 1988...

Nowadays, $2.3 million for 10 years doesn’t sound like much. Some players make nearly that much for one season.

“I was a bargain compared to what salaries are today,” he said. “I can honestly say it’s going to have to stop somewhere.”
 

Bosoxman2004

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Jul 15, 2005
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One guy's off the board and suddenly we're playing catch up to EVERYONE else? Considering the Breslow hire and that he was brought in for his very clear philosophy on pitching and the reports that he's bringing in Andrew Bailey I would be more hopeful than concerned that one guy is off the board. If Yamamoto is the primary target, do you opt for another guy just to be first? Also if it is true that Nola wanted to stay in Philly, was he ever really on the board?
Very good points, guess I'm just disenfranchised from sometimes losing the right guys.
 

Yo La Tengo

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DeGrom is a bit weird because his career didn't start until he was 26...but he earned 42.6 fWAR during that period. So I guess it depends on how much you paid him. Strasburg only hit 25.9.
If they were free agents in their early or mid twenties, I think most of us could have been convinced that giving DeGrom or Strasburg or Wood or Mark Price a huge contract was a good idea.
How about Matt Harvey? What kind of massive deal would he have landed after his 2015 season? He was 26 years old with a 2.71 ERA and a 1.02 WHIP over 189 innings and 188 Ks vs 37 walks.
Doesn’t Yamamoto have more uncertainty than any of those names listed above?
 

Big Papi's Mango Salsa

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Fair or not, the way I view Yamamoto, and pretty much all players coming from Japan is, in some hypothetical world where you "buy" top prospect of your choice, what would the max contract you'd give out be.

Last I knew, I think NPB is believed to be a bit higher in talent than AAA, though it's not MLB, obviously. So - in some hypothetical world - what would you be comfortable giving Grayson Rodriguez going into his age 24 season if that were an option. Then probably bump that up a little bit because NPB is higher level than AAA.

*Granted, Rodriguez is coming off a lat strain, so that might hamper his value some, but generally speaking, that is at least how I tend to think of it.
 

JM3

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If they were free agents in their early or mid twenties, I think most of us could have been convinced that giving DeGrom or Strasburg or Wood or Mark Price a huge contract was a good idea.
How about Matt Harvey? What kind of massive deal would he have landed after his 2015 season? He was 26 years old with a 2.71 ERA and a 1.02 WHIP over 189 innings and 188 Ks vs 37 walks.
Doesn’t Yamamoto have more uncertainty than any of those names listed above?
I don't disagree with the premise. Just saying that DeGrom probably would have earned his hypothetical huge 10-year contract.

I will note that Harvey's age-24 season ended early with a torn elbow ligament, causing him to miss his entire age 25 season, so his value may have been depressed some.
 

TheYellowDart5

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With regards to Paxton, he gave an interview to FanGraphs that talked mostly about his Tommy John recovery. https://blogs.fangraphs.com/james-paxton-expects-to-be-better-next-year/

David Laurila: You came back from Tommy John surgery. What has that experience been like in terms of your pitch quality?

James Paxton: “It’s definitely interesting coming back from it, the stuff differences [and] trying to figure out my arm again. I feel like the fastball came back, it felt really good, but the breaking stuff took some time. The cutter wasn’t the same pitch it was before Tommy John. I’m still kind of figuring that pitch out. I got to a place where it was good enough. I could use it, it just wasn’t the same as it was.”

Laurila: How has it been different?

Paxton: “I used to throw it harder. It was a shorter, harder slider, basically, and now it’s not quite as hard. I used to throw it 88–91 [mph] and now it’s like 85–87. It still has decent movement to it, but again, it’s just not quite the same pitch that it was before I got hurt. Maybe that’s something that will come back in year two. People say that your stuff isn’t really 100% back until the year after your first year back from Tommy John.”
 
Mar 30, 2023
194
Fair or not, the way I view Yamamoto, and pretty much all players coming from Japan is, in some hypothetical world where you "buy" top prospect of your choice, what would the max contract you'd give out be.

Last I knew, I think NPB is believed to be a bit higher in talent than AAA, though it's not MLB, obviously. So - in some hypothetical world - what would you be comfortable giving Grayson Rodriguez going into his age 24 season if that were an option. Then probably bump that up a little bit because NPB is higher level than AAA.

*Granted, Rodriguez is coming off a lat strain, so that might hamper his value some, but generally speaking, that is at least how I tend to think of it.
You're not thinking about NPB the right way. It's not accurate to classify it as AAAA ( though many people do) because a hypothetical AAAA league wouldn't have the top-end talent that NPB has right now.

What is accurate to say, is NPB contains many AAA players, some sub-AAA players, some MLB-level players, and some players who are HOF-level talents who are exercising those talents to their maximum HOF-level potential right now - they just happen to be doing so in Japan instead of North America. It may be true that if you averaged out the talent of all the players IN NPB you would end up with some hypothetical AAAA level, but that ignores the fact that there would be no HOF-level players actively playing at a HOF-level in this hypothetical AAAA level. Players like Ichiro, Hideki Matsui, Shohei, and Yu Darvish weren't prospects before coming over to the Major Leagues -- they were already some of the very best players in the world.

In Yamamoto's case, it's pretty easy to see that he's one of the very best throwers of baseballs alive on Earth right now, and he would continue to be so even if he never played a single day in MLB.
 
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