Ya he is the 2nd best QB in the division.Clears Cleaver said:
anyone have a scouting report on garoppolo?
2015 Dolphins: Fire the Lazor!
- Thread starter sodenj5
- Start date
Irresponsible, roster-busting contract when you don't have even an elite-ish QB in place. Miami will be better, Suh is awesome, but it's a road to nowhere until they fix QB. I like Tannehill but they're not going to a Super Bowl on his arm.
Odds are better than he'll kill Tannehill while pulling out the stadium parking lot some afternoon.Clears Cleaver said:
Mugsy's Walk-Off Bunt said:
Miami has a top heavy roster and a shitload of holes. I'm not sure they are better, particularly if they have bad injury luck.
Shelterdog said:
But these were the same holes they had last year. Every player cut thus far, either didn't play last year (injury), or significantly underperformed. Hartline and Gibson combined for 68 catches last season, and less than 250 YAC. Ellerbe was lost after the 1st game, Finnegan missed the last quarter of the year, and Wheeler saw less than 30% of the defensive snaps. Delmas was a great add in FA last year, but his season ended ended in the 13th game of the year.
If Suh does sign, Odrick (FA) and Starks (6M/1m guaranteed) are expendable. The Fins will then need help at G, WR, LB, CB, and S. I think last year's WR production can be replaced cheaply, with the CB hole potentially being the most costly. Misi, Jenkins, McCain, and Jordan are in the mix at LB, but the word is someone like Mason Foster will be targeted.
I'm most concerned about the OL, however. Will Brandon Albert be fully recovered by the start of the season? Is the staff expecting Billy Turner to fill in at G? And Dallas Thomas or Shelly Smith at the other G? Protecting Tannehill has to be #1, as it's the key to his progression.
I'd be really bummed if we lost Charles Clay. He's a good TE reaching FA at the perfect time.
QB: Tannehill (Open)
RB: Miller (Williams)
TE: *Clay (Sims)
Out WR: Wallace - Open
Slot WR: Landry - Matthews
OL: Albert - Turner - Pouncey - Open - James
S: Jones - Open
CB: Grimes - Open - Taylor/Davis
LB: (W)Jenkins - (M) Open - (S) Misi
DL: Vernon - Mitchell - Suh - Wake
I agree that the people cut this far were relative dead weight last year. I would much rather have one Suh over a combined Hartline, Gibson, Wheeler, and Ellerbe and possibly Starks.
Now that Suh is basically in the fold, I still think they go WR in round one of the draft if one of the big 3 is available, and MLB in round 2.
Now that Suh is basically in the fold, I still think they go WR in round one of the draft if one of the big 3 is available, and MLB in round 2.
Those are actually fair points. I don't mean to rain on the Suh parade, and it's true that you improve sometimes with Big Fat Moves like that one. Just think it's a little risky given Tannehill. Think your draft strategy is wise, as well. And I'll say this, I'm not looking fwd to TB12 facing that Miami front line next year.sodenj5 said:
Just trying to make the point that sometimes "spreading the wealth" doesn't get you any further than splashing the cash on one guy.Mugsy's Walk-Off Bunt said:
I made the point earlier that Suh not only fills what was a big hole for Miami, but he makes their entire defense better, something that can't be said for Starks, Odrick, or Danny Shelton.
Part of me wonders if Dion Jordan could get traded. If the Dolphins add a MLB, they'd need to trade either Jordan or Misi. There is no point in having a three-way competition with guys as capable as Koa Misi, Dion Jordan and Chris McCain, all of them fighting for a linebacker position that will play 500-600 snaps at most. As one of my favorite twitter people pointed out recently, that's like having Paul Soliai, Danny Shelton and Damon Harrison all fighting for the role of nose tackle in a 3-4 defense.
I'm making the same argument re Revis at 16 mill vs. spreading those dollars around.sodenj5 said:
Mugsy's Walk-Off Bunt said:
When you can grab an elite player at a key position, the money is arguably worth it. CB is definitely one of those positions.
I doubt it. For as bad as his career has started, he's still only going into his third year. I think they're going to try and stick with him at DE. Worst case scenario, he is a good insurance policy if Vernon leaves next offseason.pdaj said:
I'm sorry, but this is an insane move for a team with too many holes. The Ravens had a pretty good DL last year and look what Brady did against them. In this current NFL, RBs and DL don't make a huge amount of difference - particularly if a QB can get the ball out quickly, and AFC East teams have decided to go all-in on DL and RBs.
Unbelievable.
The Dolphins keep splashing the pot with FA signings, and they don't get any better.
Is Steve Ross basically just another Dan Snyder?
pdaj said:
Um, yes, that's the point. The team had a lot of holes last year and there's nothing in store to fix most of them, and the effort to shed salary is creating even more holes. Hartline, for example, might be a disappointment but he's just not that easy to replace:you can't count on finding a Landry in the middle rounds of the draft.
Shelterdog said:
Hartline was set to make 6 million this year, and Gibson over 3. I'd trade both for Brandon LaFell. Similar to last year, this is another deep draft at WR; and while many expect Miami to use their #1 for a wideout, I think the Dolphins would do fine adding a lower-cost wideout to the mix once the heavy spending is through. That is, as long as Wallace, Landry, and Clay are still in the fold. The Fins need YAC guys.
In some ways it's a bigger bet, because Jay Cutler is unlikely to get suspended by the NFL for on-field actions.PedroKsBambino said:
Why? With Wallace and Landry, that's their strongest position, no? What good does it do to have the modern version of Givens, Jeffries, and Hill if you don't have a Moon at QB?sodenj5 said:
I think the worst news for the dolphins in that story is the reminder that Tannenbaum is so close to in charge.
Mugsy's Walk-Off Bunt said:
I like the work Hickey did last year, so I'm encouraged by this:
“Everybody’s going to have input, but ultimately who we pick and when we pick, the roster decision will rest with him,'” Tannenbaum said of Hickey. “'Again, I’ve seen him work. I know he’s a collaborative leader. That’s my belief.”'
Devizier said:
Fair point. In reviewing the Fins' roster, there's plenty of young, cost-controlled players who will be given the opportunity to step up. Matthews and Hazel at WR, McCain, Jordan, Tripp at LB, Turner and Thomas at G, Taylor, Davis, and Aiken in the secondary, and Johnson and Francis at DT.
One of the holes on this team is/was DT. This team absolutely collapsed on the middle of the defense at the end of the year last year. Teams were running up insane rushing totals against Miami. Odrick is a very good player, and Starks was productive considering his age, but they both fell off a cliff on the second half. Miami is plugging a big hole with one of the best defensive players in the league.Shelterdog said:
Suh is a great player on different plane than Starks or Odrick. He instantly makes the run defense better, and the pass rush both better and more effective because he commands double teams on nearly every play. That in turn makes the pass defense better in the secondary and the LBs are free to make plays without having to shed as many blocks.
I said it before. Take all of the guys that have been cut. I take Suh over them without blinking. Hartline was the best of the group. He had back to back 1000 yard seasons, but he was ineffective last year. Miami isn't losing their best receiver. They're losing their third and fourth receivers. they didn't cut anyone that significantly contributed last year to anything other than the salary cap.
ivanvamp said:
Ya until you realize Wake is 33 already. How many great years does he have left.
Maybe one or two. I actually think Miami needs to start using him more as a rotational pass rusher, starting this year. It's clear Wake wears down by the end of they year. Let Jordan and Shelby take some of Wake's snaps and turn Wake loose on third downs.jsinger121 said:
Its a lot of money, but you could argue its a very logical move for a team that has as many issues at LB as this team does (fresh off unloading Phil Wheeler and Dannell Ellerbe). You can't afford to completely overhaul the secondary, LB core and WR core in one offseason with a finite set of resources. MLB just became a much easier position to play in Miami.wade boggs chicken dinner said:
Further, I'd have to question anyone who didn't feel something drastic needed to be done with the front seven after they were literally shredded on the ground down the stretch last season. The unit was broken. This signing should go a long way towards rectifying that issue.
1) I wonder if signing Suh will help Miami recruit defensive players into the fold
2) Dolphins actually offered more to Cobb to come and play WR, but he stayed in GB (that would have ended Wallace's career in Miami I'm guessing)
3) Miami is going to sign a CB and draft one in first two rounds. They need a starting CB and a nickel if Wilson leaves. They may also draft a WR
4) I bet the next guy they sign will be a FS
5) Matt Moore is perhaps better than Hoyer, be interesting to see where he lands
6) Omar and others think 49ers may cut P Willis march 10 and that is who dolphins are eying for ILB.
2) Dolphins actually offered more to Cobb to come and play WR, but he stayed in GB (that would have ended Wallace's career in Miami I'm guessing)
3) Miami is going to sign a CB and draft one in first two rounds. They need a starting CB and a nickel if Wilson leaves. They may also draft a WR
4) I bet the next guy they sign will be a FS
5) Matt Moore is perhaps better than Hoyer, be interesting to see where he lands
6) Omar and others think 49ers may cut P Willis march 10 and that is who dolphins are eying for ILB.
You don't have to overhaul your secondary, LB core and WR core in one offseason, especially when you're a team that's dead average in point diff and by DVOA and not entirely sold on your QB. 60/mil over the next three years for a non-QB just seems really short-sighted and prohibitive, and I don't see this radical trickle down effect into the LB core and secondary from a DT; this isn't JJ Watts. I don't know, I doubt Suh's going to be a Haynesworth situation, he's a very good player and only 28. But this seems like what has shown to be the worst form of roster building.
Criticism is fair, the Haynesworth comparison really isn't. The Titans' approach to Albert was an enormous red flag, and in addition to the work ethic issues, there have been some rumblings that Big Al's knees were shot before he left Tenn and he knew it.
The secondary doesn't need a complete overhaul. Jones and Grimes will be back. They need a FS and CB. One of either Taylor or Davis can step up and fill the CB gap. My money would be on Taylor. He was flashing before getting hurt, which is probably his biggest issue. LB is set at WLB in Jenkins and SLB with Misi. They need a MLB and I've been saying they can target one in the second round.TheMoralBully said:
Suh might not be Watt, but he is an absolutely disruptive force. How does he not make the defense better as a whole? He instantly upgrades both the run defense and pass rush himself.
Yeah, I didn't mean it's a similar situation, someone had just made the comparison (probably jokingly) earlier.
mcaqua said:
The logical move for a team with a lot of holes is to try and fill a lot of those holes.
The question isn't whether Suh is an improvement over what they had at DT---he is, although the gap may be smaller than you hope if Odrick leaves--or whether he's better than the godawful 2012 free agents who are getting cut. It's whether the Suh contract is the best way to improve the team. I think the answer is that he is not, that you'd be a lot better off using the money to resign some of your better players like Clay and using the rest to pick off some third tier free agents to fill the many, many holes on the roster.
TheMoralBully said:
You don't see how Suh will have a trickle down effect on LB and/or secondary play? I disagree on a very fundamental level.
Also, who is not entirely sold on Tannehill? He might not be a future HOFer, but he's proven to be an above average player at the position and a guy capable of winning.
I'm not sold on Tannehill. In a QB-friendly system he was 14th best rated and in bottom 10 in third down and 4th quarter rating. His team lost several last minute games, most of which can be blamed on the D, but many of which he failed to either get a first down or tack on points.
Right now he's average. I hope and pray he moves into the top 10 in the league
Right now he's average. I hope and pray he moves into the top 10 in the league
mcaqua said:
I said a radical affect, to where it's worth it to have a 20mil hit on your cap to a non-QB.
Far enough on Tannehill. I thought opinion was more divided on him here and with the Dolphin's. I think he has shown enough to back.
Shelterdog said:
You could argue it is a very effective way of improving the team. Look, I'm not going to sit here and defend this front office and their personnel decisions as they've been proven to be wrong time and again over the better part of the last two decades. That said, the run defense down the stretch last year was abysmal. LB play was poor and the pass rush was non-existent. In fact, I remember in your post-mortem wrap up of this team, you felt like the D (in particular) was about set to spring a couple of additional holes with age-related decline of both Grimes and Wake (something I happened to agree with).
So how do you fix it moving forward? What's the superior alternative? How do you stem the tide of a decline in overall defensive play and set it back on a path of productivity and promise? I'm not sure how investing in a couple of complementary pieces in FA along the front seven is going to alleviate some of the horrific play this defense exhibited last season. With this move, your run defense improves, your interior pass rush improves and you set the stage for an improvement in MLB play. It certainly doesn't fix every hole on the team, but the defense is unquestionably better, isn't it?
mcaqua said:
I don't disagree about the front seven but I think you might have been able to get, say, Jabal Sheard/Spikes/Ahtyba Rubin and maybe even another guy, for what Suh will cost you in the near term. I prefer using a bunch of lower cost veterans--that way you're filling a couple of slots, you don't get fucked if your 18 million player gets hurt or suspended, and you have longer term cap flexibility. Hell, Wilfork would be an awesome addition and he's going to cost maybe $4 million a year.
Another option would be to use the money to keep your favorite two or three players out of Clay/Odrick/Vernon/Pouncey (I'm partial to Odrick and Vernon). It's a conservative approach but you tend to see the historically successful teams--Steelers/Ravens/Giants/Pats/Packers--stay with the devil they know and keep their favorite guys (and guys they know are the best locker room guys, gym rats, etc) rather than go crazy and hope that Suh will fit in well.
EDIT: Clarification and fixed the spelling of Ahtyba--which is a name I suspect we will all have to learn soon.
M
MentalDisabldLst
Guest
wade boggs chicken dinner said:
Not even close. Leaving aside the fact that Ross is a far better businessman, and that he's not an asshole anywhere close to Snyder's league, he also doesn't interfere with FO decisions to anything close to the same degree. I say this based on my own observations - sodenj and other Phins fans might disagree - but my sense is that his role is closer to that of Kraft, backing up his football guys and being there to lend weight to any decisions or deals. Adult oversight, rather than a child wrecking the sandbox for everyone else. Say what you will about the Incognito / Martin fiasco, but once Ross got wind of the details, he wasted no time in throwing Jeff Ireland overboard and seeing to it that Incognito was blackballed, aside from doing the right thing in a couple other respects.
He's not Bob Kraft, but my sense is that he's a good owner.
M
MentalDisabldLst
Guest
TheMoralBully said:
For my money, Tannehill is the best QB in the AFC East not named Brady since Drew Bledsoe left Buffalo for Dallas. I'd take his 2014 (AV: 14) over 2006 Chad Pennington (AV: 12). You can make the playoffs and make some noise there with a guy like Tannehill. An INT% of 2.0% alone is a huge improvement over Chad Henne (3.5%), Joey Harrington (3.9%), 34yo Gus Frerotte (2.6%), AJ Feeley (4.2%), Jay Fiedler (3.9% over 5 years), and all the other guys the Dolphins have run out there since Dan Marino retired.
He's not going to win any titles, but QB is no longer their most glaring team weakness. The same can't be said for Buffalo or the Jets.
Patrick Willios retiring, bag that idea. lol
Also, looks like their Fields is not willing to restructure and will be released, freeing up $3.1M in cap. He was awful last year, even when they had the better ST guys by end of the season.
Also, looks like their Fields is not willing to restructure and will be released, freeing up $3.1M in cap. He was awful last year, even when they had the better ST guys by end of the season.
Chris Perkins @chrisperk 4m4 minutes ago
#Dolphins DT Jared Odrick agrees to terms with Jacksonville http://fw.to/Yci7OZW
#Dolphins DT Jared Odrick agrees to terms with Jacksonville http://fw.to/Yci7OZW
mcaqua said:
As SD notes above, they could have gotten Wilfork plus signed McPhee for versatility and have a tremendous amount left over. Hell, they probably could get Ngata (if the Ravens cut him; not out of the possibility) and McPhee for 2/3rds of that.
In today's NFL, giving a DL that kind of money makes no sense at all. Plus, when they resign Tannehill, the two of them are going to have what, 20% of the cap? Is that a good idea?
sodenj5 said:
Why are people leaving Vernon out of the equation? Suh's going to really impact Vernon on the field, and I could see him getting back into double digits on sacks pretty easily next year.
Absolutely. He probably gains the most by Suh coming on board and is conveniently entering the last year of his deal. He's a definite starter though. He will have his own share of snaps. I'm talking about dividing Wake's snaps to keep him fresher.Kenny F'ing Powers said:
Adam Beasley @AdamHBeasley 2m2 minutes ago
Per @ArmandoSalguero, Odrick's reported deal with the Jaguars makes six straight Dolphins 1st-rounders not to get a second contract. Crazy.
Per @ArmandoSalguero, Odrick's reported deal with the Jaguars makes six straight Dolphins 1st-rounders not to get a second contract. Crazy.