Cap Clearing trade?
- Thread starter Cellar-Door
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Thinking about this more it seems to make by far the most sense to move AB, solely because he will be an unrestricted free agent next year.
The next question is what teams could use a player like Bradley? I don't think Danny wants to trade him to an Eastern Conference team that could make noise in the playoffs; so that eliminates Milwaukee. I highly doubt he is just going to dump him into a trade exception or for just one 2nd round pick.
The obvious need would be a more traditional "big" who can rebound and stretch the floor a bit. However, as finnVT pointed out upthread these type of players are really hard to find.
I think the Denver idea is interesting. Bradley and a 2nd for Hernangomez could be a fit. The Nugs seem to want to win now and Hernangomez is suddenly one of many PFs on the roster. Denver gets some Jamal Murray/Jameer Nelson insurance (Murray because of age/inexperience and Nelson because he seems to get hurt every year)
The other option is a 3 team trade where one team gets a lotto protected 1st, the Celtics get a big, and one team gets Bradley.
The next question is what teams could use a player like Bradley? I don't think Danny wants to trade him to an Eastern Conference team that could make noise in the playoffs; so that eliminates Milwaukee. I highly doubt he is just going to dump him into a trade exception or for just one 2nd round pick.
The obvious need would be a more traditional "big" who can rebound and stretch the floor a bit. However, as finnVT pointed out upthread these type of players are really hard to find.
I think the Denver idea is interesting. Bradley and a 2nd for Hernangomez could be a fit. The Nugs seem to want to win now and Hernangomez is suddenly one of many PFs on the roster. Denver gets some Jamal Murray/Jameer Nelson insurance (Murray because of age/inexperience and Nelson because he seems to get hurt every year)
The other option is a 3 team trade where one team gets a lotto protected 1st, the Celtics get a big, and one team gets Bradley.
As an aside, I find it very interesting that all the national writers seem to think that Smart is the obvious candidate to get moved (this is the general refrain on Twitter and the Dunc'd On podcast with Nate Duncan and Danny Leroux barely even mentioned the possibility someone other than Smart gets moved) whereas the local media and most educated fans think that there's no way that Smart gets moved
Denver does not need AB at all. Gary Harris is better than AB. They also have Barton, Murray, Mudiay that need minutes. Denver needs a back up SF.
I've been puzzled at Duncan and Leroux on this one---they almost never mention Bradley, and I can't really figure out why. I think one aspect of it is that Smart's game is one you need to see almost daily to appreciate; however, those guys also get some of the analytics and the story there is very clearly in Smart's favor as well, which they seem blind to.
As much as I like their podcast, I do think they tend to have a 'one size fits all' approach and thus can miss when teams are thinking in different ways.
Why would you think there is no way Smart gets moved? Something has to give, and if he brings back good value, I would not be surprised in the least to see him go. Somehow we need more talent up front, and if Smart is part of a package to do that I'm fine with that. Bradley or Crowder too. One thing I would not like to see is two of the guards going, because that would leave us too thin in the backcourt.
Can they take on a player from the Clips to match salary, or is that not allowed with TPE?
Agreed on Harris being better than AB (they are actually pretty similar type of players as well) However, while its definitely not a perfect fit, I do think they could use AB. From all reports, Denver seems to have given up on Mudiay. Barton could theoretically play some small ball 3. And for a team that has prioritized winning now, their back court is very young.
It's very tough to find a team that needs Bradley that could offer a big that fits everything the Celtics need. I think. at this point, the return is going to have to be a lottery protected 1st.
Pretty sure that TPE's cannot be combined with anything (another TPE or a salary) to match.
Here's another thought - trade Bradley ($8.8mm) to NO for Ajinca ($5.0mm), Jordan Crawford ($1.7mm, non-guar) and Cook ($1.3mm, non-guar).
You know who could really use Avery Bradley? The Thunder - if only to match up against Curry in the playoffs.
In addition, if the Thunder like Marcus Smart, they have a $4.9MM trade exception that coincidentally works really well with Smart's salary. They also have a second round pick from the Bulls that is close enough to the first round to have value.
On another topic, I have been thinking that DA's hording of draft picks isn't just an unwillingness to do a deal. I think DA and the rest of the C's staff have figured out that in this current salary cap environment, productive players on rookie contracts are insanely valuable (the only thing more valuable are the top-flight players on max contracts who should be paid double what they are making).
In other words, when a team has 2 or 3 max contracts and are forced to either give people like Ibaka or Porter $20+MM a year or not get a player close to their limited production because of cap limitations, being able to let that player go and hopefully plug in a rookie who can give 50% to 70% of production is key. I mean the Wiz really don't have any choice but to match Porter but where they are right now, they seem to me to be in "second round of playoffs" purgatory for the next few years, particularly if Wall signs his supermax extension.
In addition, if the Thunder like Marcus Smart, they have a $4.9MM trade exception that coincidentally works really well with Smart's salary. They also have a second round pick from the Bulls that is close enough to the first round to have value.
On another topic, I have been thinking that DA's hording of draft picks isn't just an unwillingness to do a deal. I think DA and the rest of the C's staff have figured out that in this current salary cap environment, productive players on rookie contracts are insanely valuable (the only thing more valuable are the top-flight players on max contracts who should be paid double what they are making).
In other words, when a team has 2 or 3 max contracts and are forced to either give people like Ibaka or Porter $20+MM a year or not get a player close to their limited production because of cap limitations, being able to let that player go and hopefully plug in a rookie who can give 50% to 70% of production is key. I mean the Wiz really don't have any choice but to match Porter but where they are right now, they seem to me to be in "second round of playoffs" purgatory for the next few years, particularly if Wall signs his supermax extension.
Well, you can conjure up quite a few deals, such as Bradley (or Crowder) to:
1. Dallas for A.J. Hammons
2. San Antonio for Davis Bertans
3. Memphis for Deyonta Davis
4. Minnesota for Justin Patton (broken foot)
The Celtics obviously don 't get back equal value in any of those deals, but teams rarely do in a fire sale.
1. Dallas for A.J. Hammons
2. San Antonio for Davis Bertans
3. Memphis for Deyonta Davis
4. Minnesota for Justin Patton (broken foot)
The Celtics obviously don 't get back equal value in any of those deals, but teams rarely do in a fire sale.
Not sure why you think this is a fire sale. Celtics have many routes to clear the cap space to sign Hayward and while teams know Ainge needs to do it, it's not as if he is trying to dump shitty salary on teams
Agreed, and I think people often misperceive the trading team's alternative in this situation. The Celtics aren't in the truly tough situation that (say) Clips were in with Paul where there's only one team who can make the deal, and there's huge pieces that are fixed.
They likely have 3, perhaps 4 or 5, players who can be the key to clearing room. And for each they have several teams with some level of interest. Any given team can try to assess the other 12-15 options the Celtics have, but won't have kind of real sense of it. And each of those teams is just trying to maximize its own value, which is effectively calibrated against what the Celtics feel they can get and give in all those other deals.
That's all to say the appeal of the players here means Celtics have a lot of options, and thus there's little (maybe not zero, but small) leverage for any one team on any one player to make the cap reduction happen
They likely have 3, perhaps 4 or 5, players who can be the key to clearing room. And for each they have several teams with some level of interest. Any given team can try to assess the other 12-15 options the Celtics have, but won't have kind of real sense of it. And each of those teams is just trying to maximize its own value, which is effectively calibrated against what the Celtics feel they can get and give in all those other deals.
That's all to say the appeal of the players here means Celtics have a lot of options, and thus there's little (maybe not zero, but small) leverage for any one team on any one player to make the cap reduction happen
Agree that there's enough interest in Jae, AB, or Smart that Danny should be able to get something of substance - probably a late 1st pick - for his troubles.
Washburn speculates that Jae may be headed to ATL. Not sure why he thinks that but it's certainly among the dozen or so possibilities that DA and his crew are sorting through.
Washburn speculates that Jae may be headed to ATL. Not sure why he thinks that but it's certainly among the dozen or so possibilities that DA and his crew are sorting through.
I don't know that Green does get 4/44 on his next deal, and I did mention him above. The recent Pat Patterson deal I think lowers Green's contract demands, but this gives me a second idea, namely a sign & trade where Bradley/Crowder go to Memphis for Green & pick, with JMG signed to a deal large enough to keep the Grizz under the cap and small enough to generate a TPE for Boston to use to add another piece if they need to.
I agree that Buttjelly isn't going to be reasonable in his demands and that Boston should just look for more realistic options at the 4.
Harris is in an interesting spot, because Murray probably needs to primarily defend the 2 spot, even if they have hopes of him managing the offense (the way Harden has in Houston).
Crowder and Bradley might actually be a solution for them, given that Wilson Chandler is made of glass and his annual absences kill them. They'd prefer to deal Faried, I'm sure, but I doubt Boston has much interest in Faried at this point in his career, he's been broken by years of playing for a crappy team going nowhere and the bad habits might be impossible to break at this point.
It makes sense in that Boston can move the salary to the Hawks without hassle and get back someone like Taurean Prince to replace Crowder. Prince is another F that's longer/bouncier than Crowder that can give you playing time at both F spots.
The Celtics have little leverage because of timing. They need to clear the cap space by the weekend, and teams know this.
I don't think there's any chance that ATL is giving up a promising 3 on a rookie deal -- regardless of how good Crowder's salary is.
Maybe I'll be wrong but based on some of the suggestions being made here I think many of you will be extremely disappointed on the return for whomever they end up trading. This is a salary dump situation in a short window of time and teams are going to adjust their offers accordingly. In fact, I think Ainge probably had a deal lined up before he even made an offer to Hayward.
There is no deadline per se, but they would theoretically need to have the space cleared by the end of the moratorium so they can finalize their contract offer to Hayward. It would be a major insult to him and his agent if they didn't have everything lined up by then.
Yeah, but they have multiple players they can move with multiple suitors for each player and, as a competent front office, I expect they've been laying the groundwork for solving this problem before yesterday. So they dont have leverage in the sense they are the ones against a deadline, but they should have leverage in the sense they should be able to pick from multiple options.
I dont necessarily expect the Celtics to "win" the trade, but I dont expect 25 cents on the dollar or anything.
Why? I mean Hayward is going to get his money whether he signs at the end of the moratorium or two days afterwards. Honestly asking.
I agree Tatum ends up a four to me, he's not quick enough to beat good wings but is to beat most fours I think, which makes his shooting and iso much more dangerous. I think that plays up his passing and he's much more likely to be ok defensively once he adds strength.
They don't need AB now and he's a free agent next year, Holmes is an important piece with Noel gone and embiid injury concerns.
This is not happening.
And stauskas and korkmaz (Anderson is more a 3/4 and sucks )
Yeah I find it hard to believe Hayward/his agent would be particularly offended if Danny called and said "hey we have a few potential trades in place but will need the weekend to make sure we get the best return we possibly can." I mean, Hayward has a strong incentive to want the Celtics to be as good as possible, obviously.
Now, if the situation dragged out much longer than the weekend, then I think he or his agent could start to get annoyed.
Now, if the situation dragged out much longer than the weekend, then I think he or his agent could start to get annoyed.
It's generally considered a faux pas to offer a contract that you can't afford. It's unlikely that they pitched Hayward a full max offer without showing or explaining the deals tentatively in place to acquire the necessary cap space. If you wait until after the moratorium you are now left with fewer teams having the necessary space in which to take back a player and you're potentially leaving your new superstar acquisition hanging while you canvas for possible deals. You kind of want everything ready on July 8 so you can do the big press conference.
Yeah, verbal commits are great and all, but if the Celtics drag it out, at what point does it turn into "you're taking advantage of my commitment and there is literally no upside for me" come into play. Imagine if in a week Danny says "hey sorry Gordon, we couldn't work anything out, want to play for a bit less than the max instead?" and by then any other place he wants to go has started using up their cap space so he has limited options.
From the side of the Celtics, they need to figure out the roster ASAP as well, they can't let this linger for too long or else they risk not having much choice in guys to fill out the roster after signing Hayward.
So, I don't think it has to happen by the time the moratorium is over, but I also don't think it can go much beyond.
From the side of the Celtics, they need to figure out the roster ASAP as well, they can't let this linger for too long or else they risk not having much choice in guys to fill out the roster after signing Hayward.
So, I don't think it has to happen by the time the moratorium is over, but I also don't think it can go much beyond.
I mean, Hayward's upside in waiting is making sure the Celtics field the most competitive team they can while he's here. The Celtics can sign him regardless by waiving and stretching Bradley, so there's no risk of Hayward being forced to take less than the max to come to Boston.
I think all of this depends on the conversations that Hayward had with Boston. I agree it probably won't go on that long, but provided Ainge was upfront with Hayward about the situation, I don't think there's any real deadline. Hayward will be able to get paid regardless of whether Ainge finds the ideal move or not. Obviously if Hayward's not on board with that, then it's a different story, but I don't see any reason for him to be antsy given the Celtics can make room without a trade.
I think all of this depends on the conversations that Hayward had with Boston. I agree it probably won't go on that long, but provided Ainge was upfront with Hayward about the situation, I don't think there's any real deadline. Hayward will be able to get paid regardless of whether Ainge finds the ideal move or not. Obviously if Hayward's not on board with that, then it's a different story, but I don't see any reason for him to be antsy given the Celtics can make room without a trade.
Hayward probably doesn't care when he signs, but I'm sure if it drags out until the 10th or 11th and Boston can't get the space lined up it becomes problematic. Hayward and his agent would have undoubtedly asked Boston how they planned to open the space to sign him since that could run the gamut form "trading Smart for a 1st" to "dumping Horford on the Kings" and he would have wanted to know what the roster would look like going forward. It's just not the best look if you stretch this out another week or so trying to find the best deal.
I think it comes down to the fact that Smart can't shoot and Avery can. Avery's defense on quick PG's is probably a (much less) significant consideration as well. At the end of the day, the skills Smart does possess exist elsewhere on the roster.
What does everyone think about Marc Gasol?
"Chris Mannix of The Vertical reported two league executives identified Gasol as a potential trade target, and Mannix speculated that Boston could acquire him in exchange for a "ready-made rebuilding package of players and picks."
That is from the mobile app link: http://ble.ac/2upTWoR
"Chris Mannix of The Vertical reported two league executives identified Gasol as a potential trade target, and Mannix speculated that Boston could acquire him in exchange for a "ready-made rebuilding package of players and picks."
That is from the mobile app link: http://ble.ac/2upTWoR
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Luc Mbah a Moute would interest me. Celts could probably clear enough space to sign Hayward and Moute if they sent Bradley + another salary and took nothing back.
I've always liked Marc Gasol, but I don't think it's a fit for a few reasons. He's 32, he has 3 years left on his deal paying him 22, 24, and 25 million per year. I wouldn't give up a "ready made rebuilding package" as I've seen quoted as the asking price. Gasol's best days are (likely) behind him so paying a premium when we may already be a year or two away seems shortsighted. If he were a couple of years younger it would be more interesting, but giving up picks/young players for Gasol doesn't seem to help us get over the Golden State hump and we're probably already good enough to threaten Cleveland.
Seems like a player (+ I'd expect a draft pick) for JaMychal Greene is the more likely deal with Memphis, doesn't it?
I think you'd need to move Smart, Bradley, and Crowder to clear enough space to get Gasol and Hayward. Gasol is great, but that move doesn't make sense to me.
I agree that Green makes more sense if Memphis would go for that.
I agree that Green makes more sense if Memphis would go for that.
As a Nuggets fan, I'll add to the above comments about them being a solid fit. They have plenty of stretch big men (Arthur, Lyles, Lydon, and Hernangomez) and need a wing player after losing Gallinari, especially a perimeter defender. Hernan is considered 4th on the list of untouchable prospects, but they might be convinced to part with him for a quality return. The other three could probably be had.
The Pelicans need guards right? Cheick Diallo is an interesting cheap young big on their bench.
I'll weigh in here. Before the 2015-2016 college season he was called out as someone to watch by our group of draft mavens (I kept the list so I could track these guys) and while he ended up not having the year folks thought he might coming out of high school to Kansas he certainly is one of those potential high upside types who is still very young.
Was a top hs prospect (Danny loves those) huge wingspan, showed some interesting skill in the D league, and in his short NBA run showed good rebounding and low turnover rates and decent FT shooting shows some potential to develop as a stretch. Definitely a work in progress, but one with real upside.
After landing Gordon Hayward, Boston is showing interest in several free-agent rim protectors. Celtics looking at moves to clear cap space.
I'm not sure targeting a long term prospect like that is really what the C's should be doing, though. They have Tatum and Yabusele as potential long-term options as stretch 4 types, but they really could use someone reliable in front of those guys while they develop. Amir and KO may not have been world beaters, but they at least had some miles under their belts that you could put them in at big moments and have some confidence... they don't currently have someone like that. One of the DEN guys, Marvin Williams, Jamychal Green, James Johnson (though of course a trade works better here)... that's the tier of guys I think they should be targeting. It's lower ceiling types, but guys that aren't going to be making rookie mistakes in crunch time.
Completely agree. The more I look at this, the more I realize that Bradley and Crowder are going to have to be packaged together to get the type of player that the Celtics need (and unfortunately due to this cap crunch they are going to get more like $0.70 on the dollar for what they are giving up).
The Marvin Williams trade makes by far the most sense to me. The Hornets are in the East but seem destined to be a 6-8 seed for the foreseeable future. Williams is a veteran (which I think is needed at this point to balance out the youth on the roster) plus he is supposed to be a great teammate and a hard worker. That's something that can only help with the development of Tatum, Brown, and hopefully Michael Porter Jr. next year.
I can also see the C's kicking the tires on Jeff Withey with their room exception after the inevitable trade