#DFG: Canceling the Noise

Is there any level of suspension that you would advise Tom to accept?


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E5 Yaz

polka king
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shepard50

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amarshal2 said:
Fair point.

I want to believe them. I really really really do. And I will hold out hope until we get some further clarifications from the NFL. But there may come a point where reasonable Pats fans should probably accept an uncomfortable answer even if we only have 95% certainly. Enough beyond a reasonable doubt, so to speak.
 
This is indeed the painful possibility. And I will have a harder time getting over the lying (if that proves to be the case). I would have zero problem getting over the rule break. It just doesn't seem like it's ever been an issue they should have to have worried about.
 

kartvelo

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amarshal2 said:
Fair point.

I want to believe them. I really really really do. And I will hold out hope until we get some further clarifications from the NFL. But there may come a point where reasonable Pats fans should probably accept an uncomfortable answer even if we only have 95% certainly. Enough beyond a reasonable doubt, so to speak.
And if that point does come, I expect the punishment to be comparable to the punishment levied on the Carolina Panthers - in other words, none. After all, the NFL is all about fairness and integrity.
 

SeoulSoxFan

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https://twitter.com/felipemorais_/status/558759744614457345/photo/1
 
@BenVolin Even brazilian biggest news channel that never talks about american football is talking about deflategate 
 

RSN Diaspora

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SeoulSoxFan said:
https://twitter.com/felipemorais_/status/558759744614457345/photo/1
 
@BenVolin Even brazilian biggest news channel that never talks about american football is talking about deflategate 
 
I swear I've seen that news anchor in horse-blowing porn.
 

lexrageorge

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amarshal2 said:
I think where we disagree is I don't think Goddell or non-Pats fans are going to require irrefutable scientific evidence of all possible explanations no matter how remote to convict the patriots.
I'll take the position that what "non-Pats fans" think is irrelevant.  The Pats could be disbanded as an organization and the haters will still think they got off easy.  
 
What matters is what Goodell is going to require for evidence.  Let's take what appears to be the scenario being investigated:  Balls that were inflated to spec 2.5 hours prior to the game were found to be underinflated by halftime.  And it was several balls, and the pressure changes were significant.  Let's also assume that noone can ever determine how or why those balls got deflated.  No random needles lying around.  No ball boy or equipment manager fesses up.  No video, no pictures, no text, no recorded conversations, nothing.  
 
Is that enough evidence for a fine in Goodell's eyes?  Draft picks?  Suspensions?  
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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SumnerH said:
That's not true. If they have someone on video, or reliable witness testimony, or a confession, or whatever other evidence of someone tampering with the balls then they can discipline the Pats whether or not they have documentation of the actual PSIs. Tampering's forbidden on its face.
 
I'll concede that if they have some sort of eyewitness evidence, that's a different story.  But I maintain that if the story is that the balls were checked pre-game but they have no actual PSI numbers to corroborate it (just the word of the official that they checked out), there's nothing to conclusively prove tampering based solely on the balls being under-inflated at halftime.
 
Not saying that that will stop Goodell from levying fines and other sanctions.  I'm saying that in a sane world, it shouldn't result in fines and other sanctions.
 

kartvelo

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lexrageorge said:
I'll take the position that what "non-Pats fans" think is irrelevant.  The Pats could be disbanded as an organization and the haters will still think they got off easy.  
 
What matters is what Goodell is going to require for evidence.  Let's take what appears to be the scenario being investigated:  Balls that were inflated to spec 2.5 hours prior to the game were found to be underinflated by halftime.  And it was several balls, and the pressure changes were significant.  Let's also assume that noone can ever determine how or why those balls got deflated.  No random needles lying around.  No ball boy or equipment manager fesses up.  No video, no pictures, no text, no recorded conversations, nothing.  
 
Is that enough evidence for a fine in Goodell's eyes?  Draft picks?  Suspensions?  
It's more than enough in my eyes. 
Therefore I say the Colts should pay a hefty fine , their head coach and quarterback should be suspended for six games next year, and they should lose their top three picks. Sabotage of another team's footballs should not be tolerated.
 

pappymojo

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lexrageorge said:
I'll take the position that what "non-Pats fans" think is irrelevant.  The Pats could be disbanded as an organization and the haters will still think they got off easy.  
 
What matters is what Goodell is going to require for evidence.  Let's take what appears to be the scenario being investigated:  Balls that were inflated to spec 2.5 hours prior to the game were found to be underinflated by halftime.  And it was several balls, and the pressure changes were significant.  Let's also assume that noone can ever determine how or why those balls got deflated.  No random needles lying around.  No ball boy or equipment manager fesses up.  No video, no pictures, no text, no recorded conversations, nothing.  
 
Is that enough evidence for a fine in Goodell's eyes?  Draft picks?  Suspensions?  
I think this is a fair assessment of the situation but in this case I think Kraft looms large over Goodell's decision.
 

PBDWake

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FelixMantilla said:
 
Not so fast. Look who's he's married to.
 
There is a fame modifier that the Crazy/Hot matrix doesn't take into account, because the percentages just don't effect anyone using the graph. When both of them are constantly on television, there's very little in the way of face time during the day and early evening... professional duties often keep them separated. This means that most of your personal time together is at night, when crazy is frequently applied during sex. Therefore, your crazy level is still quite high, but your crazy exposure is minimal, and the Crazy Circumstance is almost always, as a net, positive. Plus, she could love butt stuff.
 

twibnotes

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PBDWake said:
 
There is a fame modifier that the Crazy/Hot matrix doesn't take into account, because the percentages just don't effect anyone using the graph. When both of them are constantly on television, there's very little in the way of face time during the day and early evening... professional duties often keep them separated. This means that most of your personal time together is at night, when crazy is frequently applied during sex. Therefore, your crazy level is still quite high, but your crazy exposure is minimal, and the Crazy Circumstance is almost always, as a net, positive. Plus, she could love butt stuff.
Plus, who wouldn't seem extreme next to that cast of idiots on the view?
 

H78

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Every person on 98.5 has all but eliminated the possibility the Patriots didn't do anything.

Why?
 

Kull

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SumnerH said:
1. I fill the my balls on the sideline outside at 50F.
2. You fill yours in the locker room at 70F
3. The refs call for the balls to be tested. We take them there, where they're immediately tested. Both sets are 12 PSI.

Given those circumstances, you'd expect that if the balls were then held outside for a half at 50F and re-tested that mine would still read 12 PSI (no temperature change for the air inside, so no pressure change), but yours would read a little under 11 PSI (the 20F drop should show something in the realm of 1 to 1.1 PSI lost).
 
Here's another plausible scenario:
 
1) Assume all balls are filled indoors at 70-whatever but the Colts are at 13.5 and the Pats are at 12.5.
- They are measured indoors (with gauge) before the game starts, and all pass.
 
2) After the half, the Colts complain about "deflation" and all balls are brought inside for immediate testing, while they are still cold from the elements.
- As the Peter King video shows, you can test 24 balls pretty darn quick, so it can easily be done while all are cold, and now the Colts balls are 12.5 while the Pats have dipped to 11.5
- The spare balls are obtained and tested. All are at 12.5 because they have been indoors the whole time.
 
3) After the game is over, the balls are brought back inside. There's no hurry to do the test, so the refs go about their normal business and don't perform the test for some 30-60 minutes.
- All balls have returned to room temperature and are now sitting at the acceptable levels of 12.5 and 13.5 respectively.
 
No shenanigans, no evil geniuses,no malfeasant ball boys. Just simple issues that involve varying times, temperatures, and different average PSIs.
 

LogansDad

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Well, Pro Football Mock put out a Brady-Goodell fake text conversation today.  I wonder how long before some idiot journalist thinks its real, airs it, and everyone starts talking about it.
 

Monbo Jumbo

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the other Athens
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6rb13ksYO0s
 
 
I say a pressure drop, oh pressure
Oh yeah, pressure gonna a drop on you
I say a pressure drop, oh pressure
Oh yeah, pressure gonna a drop on you
 
I say when it drops, oh you gonna feel it
Know that you were doing wrong
I say when it drops, oh you gonna feel it
Know that you were doing wrong
 

soxfan80000001

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amarshal2 said:
I accounted for this exact scenario in my post.

Edit: I find it to be extremely unlikely since they risked having balls measure in above the limit as they warmed. Additionally it requires deflating all your game balls and then reinflating them right before game time.
 
I'm not even sure what your point is anymore, if you even had one in the first place.  You seem to live in some fantasy world where inflating a football is some formal process done by scientists in lab coats, with careful temperature calibrations being done.  That's not how it works. They get a fucking pump and put air the ball.  At some point, maybe someone measures it with a pressure gauge, and they look at a little needle that points to some area in between some lines.  Maybe the needle is somewhere past the 12.5 PSI line, but not quite at the 13.0 PSI line.  If you cared enough to guess, maybe you'd say it was 12.7 PSI, but you don't care enough.  The needle is around the right area for a pumped up football.  At no point do you consider the temperature.  You're pumping up a football, for fucks sake.
 
As for the three groups of balls....  If you're going to compare them, you're making the assumption that they were all inflated at the same temperature, to the same pressure, measured at the same temperature, etc.  Indy could inflate to some arbitrary pressure at some arbitrary temperature, bring the ball bag in from the 50F storage compartment on the bus to be measured, and they measure 12.5 PSI.  The pats could store their balls in a 75 degree room, bring them in to be measured, and they measure 12.5 PSI.  In both cases the balls are in spec, but there is clearly more air in the indy balls, despite the exactly equal pressure readings.  Then put all the balls next to each other, inside, or outside, or wherever the fuck you want, and let them sit for a bit.  When you come back and measure them, Indy balls are going to have higher pressure readings.
 
Trying to draw some conclusion based on "all the balls being subjected to the same conditions" is stupid, unless you have the starting temperature and pressure, and the final temperature and pressure from each of the groups  You don't have that[SIZE=13.63636302948px].[/SIZE]
 

Bone Chips

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H78 said:
Every person on 98.5 has all but eliminated the possibility the Patriots didn't do anything.

Why?
It's driving me crazy. They have jumped to the conclusion that the refs used a gauge on all the footballs pre-game. To my knowledge this is not fact yet. In fact, the NFL statement only says they were "inspected".

Has any credible source reported that the balls were measured with a gauge pre-game?
 

accidentalsuccess

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Ever since this started all I could think of was the joyce/Galarraga play re: the refs just squeezing the balls rather than using the psi gauge.  
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IRxEF-V4fio
 

Ferm Sheller

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I mean this in all sincerity, but absent a statement from the NFL in the meantime, the Pats almost have to play exclusively with whatevers balls Seattle uses, right?

Maybe to make it clear what's going on, Brady can call timeout before his first play from scimmage and chuck the ball 30 rows in the stands and then call to Seattle's sideline for a ball.
 

njnesportsfan

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Just for the fun of it, I bought a NFL game ball and 3 pressure gauges. It's cold enough in NJ and I am going to test it out. I don't have money to buy 100 footballs, otherwise I would have done it. I want to see how much pressure it will lose under various weather conditions. Also to see how (in)accurate these gauges are. It cost $160 total. Since my older son wants a professional grade football anyway, it will be his souvenir after my experiment. 
 

Norm Siebern

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Kull said:
 
Here's another plausible scenario:
 
1) Assume all balls are filled indoors at 70-whatever but the Colts are at 13.5 and the Pats are at 12.5.
- They are measured indoors (with gauge) before the game starts, and all pass.
 
2) After the half, the Colts complain about "deflation" and all balls are brought inside for immediate testing, while they are still cold from the elements.
- As the Peter King video shows, you can test 24 balls pretty darn quick, so it can easily be done while all are cold, and now the Colts balls are 12.5 while the Pats have dipped to 11.5
- The spare balls are obtained and tested. All are at 12.5 because they have been indoors the whole time.
 
3) After the game is over, the balls are brought back inside. There's no hurry to do the test, so the refs go about their normal business and don't perform the test for some 30-60 minutes.
- All balls have returned to room temperature and are now sitting at the acceptable levels of 12.5 and 13.5 respectively.
 
No shenanigans, no evil geniuses,no malfeasant ball boys. Just simple issues that involve varying times, temperatures, and different average PSIs.
 
This makes perfect sense, honestly.  Therefore, no one in any power nor the vast majority of people will even consider it to be the case.
 
Today my eleven year old took all sorts of shit from her schoolmates that she roots for a team of cheaters. Typical, no big deal coming from eleven year olds. Then the teacher uses the Patriots as the negative example in his lesson about honesty and vocab words about cheating. Made my daughter feel like shit.
 
Fucker.
 

Byrdbrain

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Bone Chips said:
It's driving me crazy. They have jumped to the conclusion that the refs used a gauge on all the footballs pre-game. To my knowledge this is not fact yet. In fact, the NFL statement only says they were "inspected".

Has any credible source reported that the balls were measured with a gauge pre-game?
I seem to recall PK saying that it was done with a gauge and Voilin for sure said it was but there has been no official statement saying so.
 

dcmissle

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I know, or think I know, only 2 things.

1. The Pats kicked the shit out of the Colts during the second half, when regulation balls indisputably were used.

2. This was not an NFL sting designed to catch the Pats red handed. That contention you can chalk up to pats fan paranoia. Such a sting was highly likely to present Goodell with precisely the nightmare he is facing now. He'd have sooner called the Pats and said, we are watching you Sunday. You had better be clean.

Finally, I buy Shelter's sensible speculation that the refs initially were 100% adamant they had gauge tested the balls, only to retreat in an oh shit moment after the fact. That also squares with Theo's accounts, the subsequent back tracking on the discipline front. It also squares with Troy Vincent initially saying this would be wrapped up in a matter of a few days, and now it's clear it won't be.
 

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njnesportsfan said:
Just for the fun of it, I bought a NFL game ball and 3 pressure gauges. It's cold enough in NJ and I am going to test it out. I don't have money to buy 100 footballs, otherwise I would have done it. I want to see how much pressure it will lose under various weather conditions. Also to see how (in)accurate these gauges are. It cost $160 total. Since my older son wants a professional grade football anyway, it will be his souvenir after my experiment. 
 
This might be the craziest thing posted in all 125 pages here.
 

Byrdbrain

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Ferm Sheller said:
I mean this in all sincerity, but absent a statement from the NFL in the meantime, the Pats almost have to play exclusively with whatevers balls Seattle uses, right?

Maybe to make it clear what's going on, Brady can call timeout before his first play from scimmage and chuck the ball 30 rows in the stands and then call to Seattle's sideline for a ball.
The teams don't control the balls during the SB. I assume they will get to prep some balls but they are out of each teams control.
 

patinorange

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Bone Chips said:
It's driving me crazy. They have jumped to the conclusion that the refs used a gauge on all the footballs pre-game. To my knowledge this is not fact yet. In fact, the NFL statement only says they were "inspected".

Has any credible source reported that the balls were measured with a gauge pre-game?
Not to pick on you personally but this question keeps getting asked. How else would they measure them? As dumb and confused as the NFL is on many subjects and issues, it's difficult to believe they would humiliate themselves and ruin the Super Bowl if they did not measure the balls with a gauge? Really.
 

Ferm Sheller

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Byrdbrain said:
The teams don't control the balls during the SB. I assume they will get to prep some balls but they are out of each teams control.
.

Oh, thanks. No wonder why NE can't win a SB.
 

Kull

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Norm Siebern said:
 
This makes perfect sense, honestly.  Therefore, no one in any power nor the vast majority of people will even consider it to be the case.
 
 
The truck sized hole in my theory is it assumes nobody from the NFL went back and re-measured the balls that failed, now that they've been sitting at room temperature. That seems like an obvious thing to do before running out to hire a team of investigators, but, NFL, etc.
 

njnesportsfan

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There is no Rev said:
 
This might be the craziest thing posted in all 125 pages here.
I encourage all fans (Patriots or not) whose kids are old enough to play with a football to do exactly what I did. It's a gift to the kids and it will be an interesting experience. 
 

soxfan80000001

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njnesportsfan said:
Just for the fun of it, I bought a NFL game ball and 3 pressure gauges. It's cold enough in NJ and I am going to test it out. I don't have money to buy 100 footballs, otherwise I would have done it. I want to see how much pressure it will lose under various weather conditions. Also to see how (in)accurate these gauges are. It cost $160 total. Since my older son wants a professional grade football anyway, it will be his souvenir after my experiment. 
 
If your results agree with physics, I will make a mental note of your general competence as a human.  If your results disagree with physics, there will be no doubt about it, it is you that is wrong, not physics.  Just so you're clear, you have embarked on a measure of your own competence, not physics.  That said, I'm 100% onboard with going and doing something fun that you want to do, I don't mean this as a knock on you in any way.
 

JohntheBaptist

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njnesportsfan said:
I encourage all fans (Patriots or not) whose kids are old enough to play with a football to do exactly what I did. It's a gift to the kids and it will be an interesting experience. 
 
I encourage all fans whose kids are old enough to keep them away from this rampant, utter stupidity for as long and as totally as possible, and if they find themselves concerning themselves with it at all to simply steer them toward something productive. This whole thing is such a complete embarrassment for everyone involved.