#DFG: Canceling the Noise

Is there any level of suspension that you would advise Tom to accept?


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Ferm Sheller

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I am hanging my hat on the notion that Kraft spoke at length to BB, Brady and others about this, came away satisfied that there was no wrongdoing and encouraged BB and Brady to talk about it with the media, as opposed to ordering them to say "we've been advised not to say anything; the league is investigating" over and over.
 

PeaceSignMoose

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rodderick said:
 
She doesn't even know what a touchdown is, I'll cut her some slack. Still, she's about as knowledgeable as your average hardcore american football fan, it seems.
 
Still more knowledgable than Mark Brunell.  
 

staz

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Reading between the lines of the NFL statement, it seems strange that "(video and) other electronic information" is referenced twice, seemingly for emphasis. What "other electronic information" could be so important? If it was just still photos, they could simply say "video and still photography." Using the term "other electronic information" seems to open it up to still photos and what? Email? Computer files?
 

redsoxcentury

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Kull said:
 
And of course, tomorrow's lesson will cover "innocent until proven guilty", "not jumping to conclusions", and "mob mentality". Except, probably not.
if that was my kids teacher it would take every bit of energy not to go down to the school and raise hell
 

rodderick

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Ed Hillel said:
If there's one country in the world that screams integrity when it comes to sports, it's certainly Brazil.
 
Yeah, I mean we have real actual corruption going on here, even though it isn't nearly as bad as it once was. The thing is, people here don't usually give a shit about the sort of stuff that happens on the "backstage", as long as it doesn't involve teams taking money to lose a game or some bullshit like that. When Maradona admitted to giving Brazil players water infused with laxatives during their 1990 World Cup match that Argentina won, the average brazilian's reaction was "LOL, why would you dumbfucks ever accept anything from those cunts? You deserved it". The US may have escalated things to an international conflict if this happened over there.
 

geoduck no quahog

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Following on from my interpretation of the NFL's press release, this is what's going to happen:
 
- The Patriots absolutely broke Rule 2 Section 1. Period. The Patriots footballs were under-inflated below the specified limit.
- The League will not be able to prove tampering, therefore the Patriots will only be accused of not meeting the letter of Rule 2 Section 1
- Since tampering will be impossible to prove, the League will settle upon a $25,000 fine as the minimum penalty incurred as if tampering was proven
 
End of story.
 
Play ball.
 

Ferm Sheller

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Also, what can we deduce from the fact that the league didn't put a gag order on the Pats with regard to this? Anything? If the NFL truly thinks there was wrongdoing, you'd think it would want to minimize public damage.
 

TomTerrific

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staz said:
Reading between the lines of the NFL statement, it seems strange that "(video and) other electronic information" is referenced twice, seemingly for emphasis. What "other electronic information" could be so important? If it was just still photos, they could simply say "video and still photography." Using the term "other electronic information" seems to open it up to still photos and what? Email? Computer files?
SIGINT
 

njnesportsfan

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geoduck no quahog said:
Following on from my interpretation of the NFL's press release, this is what's going to happen:
 
- The Patriots absolutely broke Rule 2 Section 1. Period. The Patriots footballs were under-inflated below the specified limit.
- The League will not be able to prove tampering, therefore the Patriots will only be accused of not meeting the letter of Rule 2 Section 1
- Since tampering will be impossible to prove, the League will settle upon a $25,000 fine as the minimum penalty incurred as if tampering was proven
 
End of story.
 
Play ball.
So Carolina tampered but the footballs were within limit, therefore no fine?
 

soxfan80000001

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PBDWake said:
Sorry, I expounded on that in my next post. I'm just saying that the assumptions everyone seems to be basing their tossed grenades on indicate an, as previously phrased, "Ocean's Eleven level" operation. People talk about 11 balls 2 pounds under. To get that, you'd need something to measure. I doubt it's getting freehanded.
1) Inflate each ball to a consistent 12.5 PSI.
2) Stick the needle into the valve of each ball, count to three mississippi (or whatever you've previously determined the right count is), and pull the needle out.
3) Remeasure pressure in each ball, and find that pressure is consistent amongst the 12 balls.
 
To deflate the tires on my truck from 35 PSI to 16 PSI, I hold the tire valve in for about 40 seconds, because past experience has shown that they drop about 2 PSI per second. It gets them all fairly consistently to 16 PSI.
 

kartvelo

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I'm gaining confidence that:
 
1) the weather may have been a factor but is ultimately irrelevant because
2) the balls were submitted under-inflated and the refs either didn't bother using a gauge (see: Rodgers, Aaron) or didn't much care, because no one ever does did until Sunday (multiple credible sources)
 

rodderick

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soxfan80000001 said:
1) Inflate each ball to a consistent 12.5 PSI.
2) Stick the needle into the valve of each ball, count to three mississippi (or whatever you've previously determined the right count is), and pull the needle out.
3) Remeasure pressure in each ball, and find that pressure is consistent amongst the 12 balls.
 
To deflate the tires on my truck from 35 PSI to 16 PSI, I hold the tire valve in for about 40 seconds, because past experience has shown that they drop about 2 PSI per second. It gets them all fairly consistently to 16 PSI.
 
Would you trust a ballboy with this? I don't know if I would. If he screws up one ball and gets it to like 7 psi it may cause a bad throw and you lose a game on those.
 

KenTremendous

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Lots of Occam's Razor talk. Occam's Razor, to my mind, slices off the following slab of logic:
 
1. Brady prefers low pressure. (known)
2. The Pats' ballboys are very aware of this. (extremely likely)
3. Without Brady having to say "Hey, Stevie from Brockton, please illegally let air out of the ball after the refs check it after every game, especially in cold weather," the ballboys know that this is what Brady likes, and they do it, and they don't use any kind of gauge, they just kind of hiss out some air randomly until it feels a tiny bit softer. (conjecture)
4. The Colts, and maybe other teams, have noticed this about the Pats' balls. (known)
5. They tipped the refs off (known) and also made damn sure their footballs were 100% properly inflated. (conjecture)
6. Before the game, the refs, not being dummies, checked the balls with the official equipment they use to check balls. (likely)
7. The balls checked out. (known)
8. Stevie from Brockton did what he usually does to make Brady happy, which is let a little air out. (conjecture)
9. The refs, having been tipped off, checked the balls again at halftime and found them to be low. (known)
10. The fucking world went crazy. (known)
 
Brady can say he didn't tamper with the balls, or even order anyone to. Belichick can say that he had no idea about any of this, because he didn't. 
 
Isn't this scenario -- parts of which have obviously been suggested by other people -- more likely than either referee incompetence in the face of a direct complaint from a team (and probably discussion with the league about what to do), or an extreme variance of the Ideal Gas Law, which very unluckily happened to cause the football pressure to drop lower than one might expect, which very unluckily happens to correlate to both (a) the way Brady likes his footballs and (b) the complaint registered by the team they were playing that day?
 
This whole thing is dumb, and the procedure clearly intends to allow guys to alter the gameballs the way they like them, within reason, and the tornado of nonsense swirling around this is humiliating for everyone. But given everything, if no one on the Pats' payroll altered the game balls in any way, shape, or form, then boy oh boy did they get unlucky. 
 

PayrodsFirstClutchHit

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twibnotes said:
The fact that this Occam's razor type answer is totally ignore by the media is so revealing. This team is HATED by the media. It's ten times worse than I thought a week ago (i.e., pre ballgate)
 
I knew the Pats had their share of haters. I totally underestimated HOW hated this teams is by former players, announcers, fans, etc.  The Pats have achieved the pinnacle of general fan hatred I thought only reserved for the Yankees back in their glory years.  
 

nattysez

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KenTremendous said:
Isn't this scenario -- parts of which have obviously been suggested by other people -- more likely than either referee incompetence in the face of a direct complaint from a team (and probably discussion with the league about what to do), or an extreme variance of the Ideal Gas Law, which very unluckily happened to cause the football pressure to drop lower than one might expect, which very unluckily happens to correlate to both (a) the way Brady likes his footballs and (b) the complaint registered by the team they were playing that day?
 
 
You're assuming that the media is reliably reporting this.  We have zero credible evidence that the Colts ever said anything to anyone in the NFL prior to the game.
 
If it's true that the refs knew that ball inflation was an issue, then I think you're right that it's harder to believe the refs didn't use a gauge to check inflation.  However, if the refs/league knew ball inflation was an issue, shouldn't they have been keeping an eye on the balls?  Wouldn't this already be over because Stevie from Brockton would've gotten caught in the act?  That's a seriously complicating issue -- if the NFL knew the Pats were doing this AND THEN LET THEM DO IT that's as big a problem as what the Pats did in the first instance.
 
So the NFL basically looks awful no matter what, which is why they're dragging this out.
 

kartvelo

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KenTremendous said:
Lots of Occam's Razor talk. Occam's Razor, to my mind, slices off the following slab of logic:
 
1. Brady prefers low pressure. (known)
2. The Pats' ballboys are very aware of this. (extremely likely)
3. Without Brady having to say "Hey, Stevie from Brockton, please illegally let air out of the ball after the refs check it after every game, especially in cold weather," the ballboys know that this is what Brady likes, and they do it, and they don't use any kind of gauge, they just kind of hiss out some air randomly until it feels a tiny bit softer. (conjecture)
4. The Colts, and maybe other teams, have noticed this about the Pats' balls. (known)
5. They tipped the refs off (known) and also made damn sure their footballs were 100% properly inflated. (conjecture)
6. Before the game, the refs, not being dummies, checked the balls with the official equipment they use to check balls. (likely)
7. The balls checked out. (known)
8. Stevie from Brockton did what he usually does to make Brady happy, which is let a little air out. (conjecture)
9. The refs, having been tipped off, checked the balls again at halftime and found them to be low. (known)
10. The fucking world went crazy. (known)
 
Brady can say he didn't tamper with the balls, or even order anyone to. Belichick can say that he had no idea about any of this, because he didn't. 
 
Isn't this scenario -- parts of which have obviously been suggested by other people -- more likely than either referee incompetence in the face of a direct complaint from a team (and probably discussion with the league about what to do), or an extreme variance of the Ideal Gas Law, which very unluckily happened to cause the football pressure to drop lower than one might expect, which very unluckily happens to correlate to both (a) the way Brady likes his footballs and (b) the complaint registered by the team they were playing that day?
 
This whole thing is dumb, and the procedure clearly intends to allow guys to alter the gameballs the way they like them, within reason, and the tornado of nonsense swirling around this is humiliating for everyone. But given everything, if no one on the Pats' payroll altered the game balls in any way, shape, or form, then boy oh boy did they get unlucky. 
Yeah,... or, more simply, the refs did the usual feel test and approved balls that were already below 12.5, or at least close enough that a 20-degree temperature change took them below 12.5.
 

steveluck7

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They should just pay the ball boy to say he pumped the balls to 11 without anyone else's knowledge, he know's Brady likes them softer so that's the number he (ballboy) ended up on. He submitted the balls that way.
That would both implicate the referees and give the team plausible deniability
 

geoduck no quahog

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njnesportsfan said:
So Carolina tampered but the footballs were within limit, therefore no fine?
 
The NFL Rulebook does't address the Carolina act. Maybe it's in the Manual.
 
In any case: fines. loss of draft pick, forfeitures or suspensions are at the sole discretion of the Commissioner...so the comparison is irrelevant.
 

kartvelo

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steveluck7 said:
They should just pay the ball boy to say he pumped the balls to 11 without anyone else's knowledge, he know's Brady likes them softer so that's the number he (ballboy) ended up on. He submitted the balls that way.
That would both implicate the referees and give the team plausible deniability
Wait... are you Steve from Brockton?
 

WayBackVazquez

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steveluck7 said:
They should just pay the ball boy to say he pumped the balls to 11 without anyone else's knowledge, he know's Brady likes them softer so that's the number he (ballboy) ended up on. He submitted the balls that way.
That would both implicate the referees and give the team plausible deniability
 
Excellent idea. What could go wrong?
 

Hoya81

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steveluck7 said:
They should just pay the ball boy to say he pumped the balls to 11 without anyone else's knowledge, he know's Brady likes them softer so that's the number he (ballboy) ended up on. He submitted the balls that way.
That would both implicate the referees and give the team plausible deniability
No way they want to have an issue with the refs before the game starts.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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Things I have learned from this thread and the larger ballghazi story:
 
1.  Kristy Swanson is a horrible, home-wrecking person even if she is still a smoke-show at any weight.
2.  
 

theapportioner

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steveluck7 said:
They should just pay the ball boy to say he pumped the balls to 11 without anyone else's knowledge, he know's Brady likes them softer so that's the number he (ballboy) ended up on. He submitted the balls that way.
That would both implicate the referees and give the team plausible deniability
They should pay the ball boy to say that he was paid by the Colts to intentionally deflate the balls.
 

P'tucket rhymes with...

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DeJesus Built My Hotrod said:
Things I have learned from this thread and the larger ballghazi story:
 
1.  Kristy Swanson is a horrible, home-wrecking person even if she is still a smoke-show at any weight.
2.  
You're lacking the control Kristy Swanson you need to know with any certainty that she's a horrible, home-wrecking person at any weight.
 

twibnotes

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nattysez said:
 
You're assuming that the media is reliably reporting this.  We have zero credible evidence that the Colts ever said anything to anyone in the NFL prior to the game.
 
If it's true that the refs knew that ball inflation was an issue, then I think you're right that it's harder to believe the refs didn't use a gauge to check inflation.  However, if the refs/league knew ball inflation was an issue, shouldn't they have been keeping an eye on the balls?  Wouldn't this already be over because Stevie from Brockton would've gotten caught in the act?  That's a seriously complicating issue -- if the NFL knew the Pats were doing this AND THEN LET THEM DO IT that's as big a problem as what the Pats did in the first instance.
 
So the NFL basically looks awful no matter what, which is why they're dragging this out.
Plus, if the colts wanted to catch the pats, they would have stayed quiet.
 

pk1627

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The Patriots brand is taking a world-wide beating. Can't tell you how many friends have commented on their "cheating" knowing I'm a Boston stalwart. We may win the game and lose the war. I'm sobered by what John Henry put on facebook.

In retrospect, I wish Brady was a bit less flippant on Monday. (But who knew?) He certainly took it all seriously yesterday.
 

Ferm Sheller

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I really don't get the concept of caring what fans of other teams think unless you somehow think how the Pats fare and how they go about doing so is somehow a reflection of you.
 

shepard50

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KenTremendous said:
Lots of Occam's Razor talk. Occam's Razor, to my mind, slices off the following slab of logic:
 
1. Brady prefers low pressure. (known)
2. The Pats' ballboys are very aware of this. (extremely likely)
3. Without Brady having to say "Hey, Stevie from Brockton, please illegally let air out of the ball after the refs check it after every game, especially in cold weather," the ballboys know that this is what Brady likes, and they do it, and they don't use any kind of gauge, they just kind of hiss out some air randomly until it feels a tiny bit softer. (conjecture)
4. The Colts, and maybe other teams, have noticed this about the Pats' balls. (known)
5. They tipped the refs off (known) and also made damn sure their footballs were 100% properly inflated. (conjecture)
6. Before the game, the refs, not being dummies, checked the balls with the official equipment they use to check balls. (likely)
7. The balls checked out. (known)
8. Stevie from Brockton did what he usually does to make Brady happy, which is let a little air out. (conjecture)
9. The refs, having been tipped off, checked the balls again at halftime and found them to be low. (known)
10. The fucking world went crazy. (known)
 
Brady can say he didn't tamper with the balls, or even order anyone to. Belichick can say that he had no idea about any of this, because he didn't. 
 
Isn't this scenario -- parts of which have obviously been suggested by other people -- more likely than either referee incompetence in the face of a direct complaint from a team (and probably discussion with the league about what to do), or an extreme variance of the Ideal Gas Law, which very unluckily happened to cause the football pressure to drop lower than one might expect, which very unluckily happens to correlate to both (a) the way Brady likes his footballs and (b) the complaint registered by the team they were playing that day?
 
This whole thing is dumb, and the procedure clearly intends to allow guys to alter the gameballs the way they like them, within reason, and the tornado of nonsense swirling around this is humiliating for everyone. But given everything, if no one on the Pats' payroll altered the game balls in any way, shape, or form, then boy oh boy did they get unlucky. 
 
This is where I am at with all of this. It's simple and understandable. It also means that no one, strictly speaking, lied at the Press Conference. Although you could say Brady went verbatim with his answers and that is what it sounded like at the time. The only question is how Stevie could have gotten away with that with all the cameras rolling. If, in fact, Stevie DID get away with it.
 
I find it dubious that id there is tape of Stevie acting nefariously, tat it will ever see the light of day. Would the league risk Bartmanning a kid?
 
It also makes sense because the longest tenured Patriot employee, Don Brocher, who died a few years back, was with the team for 41 years. Plenty of time to set up systems like this, and others, that help the players feel comfortable but not exposed. He started in 1972 as a ball boy. This is by far the part of the game and the team we follow the least.
 

Catcher Block

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pk1627 said:
The Patriots brand is taking a world-wide beating. Can't tell you how many friends have commented on their "cheating" knowing I'm a Boston stalwart. We may win the game and lose the war. I'm sobered by what John Henry put on facebook.

In retrospect, I wish Brady was a bit less flippant on Monday. (But who knew?) He certainly took it all seriously yesterday.
 
But the image he posted doesn't have Brady or BB in it. What could that possibly mean?!
 

OnWisc

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pk1627 said:
The Patriots brand is taking a world-wide beating. Can't tell you how many friends have commented on their "cheating" knowing I'm a Boston stalwart. We may win the game and lose the war. I'm sobered by what John Henry put on facebook.

In retrospect, I wish Brady was a bit less flippant on Monday. (But who knew?) He certainly took it all seriously yesterday.
Good. I hope the brand takes such a hit that Kraft decides to actualy rebrand back to Pat Patriot.

Until I see any reason to believe that a 2 PSI difference makes a material difference, then I don't give a fuck what the Patriots did. Rules may be rules, but they don't post a 35 MPH speed limit to keep people from going 36, they do it to keep them from going 50. The PSI deviation from spec is, to me, roughly the equivalent of going 36 in a 35.
 

twibnotes

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pk1627 said:
The Patriots brand is taking a world-wide beating. Can't tell you how many friends have commented on their "cheating" knowing I'm a Boston stalwart. We may win the game and lose the war. I'm sobered by what John Henry put on facebook.

In retrospect, I wish Brady was a bit less flippant on Monday. (But who knew?) He certainly took it all seriously yesterday.
What did henry say?
 

E5 Yaz

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OnWisc said:
Good. I hope the brand takes such a hit thst Kraft decides to actualy rebrand back to Pat Patriot.

Until I see any reason to believe that a 2 PSI difference makes a material difference, then I don't give a fuck what the Patriots did. Rules may be rules, but they don't post a 35 MPH speed limit to keep people from going 36, they do it to keep them from going 50. The PSI deviation from spec is, to me, roughly the equivalent of going 36 in a 35.
 
Don't press the red button, dude. Don't do it.
 

PayrodsFirstClutchHit

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Ferm Sheller said:
I really don't get the concept of caring what fans of other teams think unless you somehow think how the Pats fare and how they go about doing so is somehow a reflection of you.
 
I am personally not bothered by the level of hatred out in the non-Patriot universe.  I am just surprised by how far, wide and deep the level of venom that exists. For so many, this seems to be the realization of a dream.  "We finally caught those fucking Pats cheating again!"
 

Ed Hillel

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True story, this is a Rupert Murdoch tweet:

Ridiculous charges against Patriots. A great team by any standards, with good, tough leadership. Big winners always attract naysayers.
 

Reardon's Beard

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Rudy Pemberton said:
Yeah, who gives a shit about the Patriots brand as it relates to other fans? Are existing fans and sponsors abandoning the Pats over what is, at worst, a really fucking minor infraction?
THIS ISN'T ISIS!
 

OnWisc

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twibnotes said:
What did henry say?
Probably something about hoping to see the Patriots in good form next year and atop the league table even if Brady is suspended the first three fixtures.