#DFG: Canceling the Noise

Is there any level of suspension that you would advise Tom to accept?


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Ferm Sheller

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njnesportsfan said:
I encourage all fans (Patriots or not) whose kids are old enough to play with a football to do exactly what I did. It's a gift to the kids and it will be an interesting experience. 
Why don't you just post your experiment and we'll watch with our kids?

BTW, I hope beer is involved.
 

Byrdbrain

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patinorange said:
Not to pick on you personally but this question keeps getting asked. How else would they measure them? As dumb and confused as the NFL is on many subjects and issues, it's difficult to believe they would humiliate themselves and ruin the Super Bowl if they did not measure the balls with a gauge? Really.
There was an article posted that quoted a former ballboy that stated refs typically just gave the balls a squeeze test to make sure they were OK. A pressure gauge was available but typically not used.
 

Reverend

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njnesportsfan said:
I encourage all fans (Patriots or not) whose kids are old enough to play with a football to do exactly what I did. It's a gift to the kids and it will be an interesting experience. 
 
It's possible you might become a member when the time I get home tonight.
 
Onwards and outwards...
 

Jungleland

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patinorange said:
Not to pick on you personally but this question keeps getting asked. How else would they measure them? As dumb and confused as the NFL is on many subjects and issues, it's difficult to believe they would humiliate themselves and ruin the Super Bowl if they did not measure the balls with a gauge? Really.
 
Because what Aaron Rodgers said isn't possible if every single game ball in every single NFL game is tested with a gauge. Until the NFL says that the Patriots balls were gauge tested before the game and not simply handled for feel, people are going to be skeptical/cling to the hope that that's the explanation this whole thing needs.
 

njnesportsfan

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soxfan80000001 said:
 
If your results agree with physics, I will make a mental note of your general competence as a human.  If your results disagree with physics, there will be no doubt about it, it is you that is wrong, not physics.  Just so you're clear, you have embarked on a measure of your own competence, not physics.  That said, I'm 100% onboard with going and doing something fun that you want to do, I don't mean this as a knock on you in any way.
Physics is never my strong suit (very good with math though). The main test is about the gauges and how that interacts with the changing pressure. That's why I bought 3 (they are not as pricey as the football). 
 

twibnotes

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Bone Chips said:
It's driving me crazy. They have jumped to the conclusion that the refs used a gauge on all the footballs pre-game. To my knowledge this is not fact yet. In fact, the NFL statement only says they were "inspected".

Has any credible source reported that the balls were measured with a gauge pre-game?
Not only is it not fact, it's the most plausible explanation. Helluva lot more likely that the refs don't diligently check the pressure than someone sucking exactly the right amount of air out of the balls without being seen
 

DavidTai

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Man, I had a cockamamie "The footballs must have been approved, THEN SWAPPED OUT for another bag of balls" theory proposed to me.
 
I just went: "So if they had successfully approved balls, WHY NOT JUST USE THEM IN THE FIRST PLACE?!"
 

johnmd20

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patinorange said:
Not to pick on you personally but this question keeps getting asked. How else would they measure them? As dumb and confused as the NFL is on many subjects and issues, it's difficult to believe they would humiliate themselves and ruin the Super Bowl if they did not measure the balls with a gauge? Really.
 
I think the point is you don't really need the gauge. The ref picks up the ball, he squeezes the ball, and if it feels ok to the touch, the ref says they are fine.
 
That might have happened.
 

njnesportsfan

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Ferm Sheller said:
Why don't you just post your experiment and we'll watch with our kids?

BTW, I hope beer is involved.
Thinking about it... My wife doesn't like (or actually hate) the idea we post any live videos anywhere...
 

shepard50

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Because what Aaron Rodgers said isn't possible if every single game ball in every single NFL game is tested with a gauge. Until the NFL says that the Patriots balls were gauge tested before the game and not simply handled for feel, people are going to be skeptical/cling to the hope that that's the explanation this whole thing needs.[/quote
It's possible if the ball is inflated after the refs inspect them.
 

Kull

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Norm Siebern said:
 
Today my eleven year old took all sorts of shit from her schoolmates that she roots for a team of cheaters. Typical, no big deal coming from eleven year olds. Then the teacher uses the Patriots as the negative example in his lesson about honesty and vocab words about cheating. Made my daughter feel like shit.
 
Fucker.
 
And of course, tomorrow's lesson will cover "innocent until proven guilty", "not jumping to conclusions", and "mob mentality". Except, probably not.
 

SumnerH

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soxfan80000001 said:
 
If your results agree with physics, I will make a mental note of your general competence as a human.  If your results disagree with physics, there will be no doubt about it, it is you that is wrong, not physics.  Just so you're clear, you have embarked on a measure of your own competence, not physics.  That said, I'm 100% onboard with going and doing something fun that you want to do, I don't mean this as a knock on you in any way.
 
Physics doesn't tell you how an assortment of gauges are calibrated/what their margin of error is, nor how much air is let out in the process of measuring the ball.  
 

johnmd20

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Kull said:
 
And of course, tomorrow's lesson will cover "innocent until proven guilty", "not jumping to conclusions", and "mob mentality". Except, probably not.
 
Idiot. Tomorrow's Saturday!
 

Bone Chips

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patinorange said:
Not to pick on you personally but this question keeps getting asked. How else would they measure them? As dumb and confused as the NFL is on many subjects and issues, it's difficult to believe they would humiliate themselves and ruin the Super Bowl if they did not measure the balls with a gauge? Really.
It is a bit curious that the NFL hasn't leaked this important bit of information - particularly when they have specifically said gauges were used at halftime. And PK this afternoon specifically tweeted that he did not know if they used gauges pre-game. So until it gets clarified, it's a very legitimate question.

In answer to your question about the NFL, I think they've done a pretty good job proving that they are a bunch of idiots on just about everything.
 

twibnotes

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Because what Aaron Rodgers said isn't possible if every single game ball in every single NFL game is tested with a gauge. Until the NFL says that the Patriots balls were gauge tested before the game and not simply handled for feel, people are going to be skeptical/cling to the hope that that's the explanation this whole thing needs.[/quote
It's possible if the ball is inflated after the refs inspect them.
And bc no one ever thought this was going to become an issue. Someone had a hard on to stick it to the pats and the league is caught off guard bc it's a rule but not one they enforce effectively

(speculating of course)
 

Prodigal Sox

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dcmissle said:
2. This was not an NFL sting designed to catch the Pats red handed. That contention you can chalk up to pats fan paranoia. Such a sting was highly likely to present Goodell with precisely the nightmare he is facing now. He'd have sooner called the Pats and said, we are watching you Sunday. You had better be clean.

Finally, I buy Shelter's sensible speculation that the refs initially were 100% adamant they had gauge tested the balls, only to retreat in an oh shit moment after the fact. That also squares with Theo's accounts, the subsequent back tracking on the discipline front. It also squares with Troy Vincent initially saying this would be wrapped up in a matter of a few days, and now it's clear it won't be.
 Yep after five days this is where I'm at also.  No sting.  Colts probably noticed the intercepted balls in the November game were underinflated and tested them.  When they got the ball they intercepted ball in the AFCCG they tested it, determined it was underinflated and notified the officials hoping the gamesmenship might help them out (at that point they were down 17-0) and they whole things has spiraled out of control with the leak to Kravitz.
 
I don't see how the balls could be deflated in ten minutes without some type of Ocean's Eleven type planning.  The balls were presented to the refs underinflated and they missed them.
 
I also think the League passing the investigation off to third parties will probably include investigating the ref's strories for veracity if they haven't come clean already.
 

Harry Hooper

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DavidTai said:
Man, I had a cockamamie "The footballs must have been approved, THEN SWAPPED OUT for another bag of balls" theory proposed to me.
 
I just went: "So if they had successfully approved balls, WHY NOT JUST USE THEM IN THE FIRST PLACE?!"
 
 
I hate to tell you this, but that's a way to beat the system. Save the balls that the ref signed from previous games, pump them to your magic number, and swap them in for the balls the ref signed 2 hours before the game. As long as the ref uses the same mark as before, you've done it.
 

djbayko

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patinorange said:
Not to pick on you personally but this question keeps getting asked. How else would they measure them? As dumb and confused as the NFL is on many subjects and issues, it's difficult to believe they would humiliate themselves and ruin the Super Bowl if they did not measure the balls with a gauge? Really.
 
And people should keep asking this question until it is answered.  Why wouldn't the NFL answer it today, in a statement they've had over 4 days to prepare?  And why instead did they seem to play word games and tap dance around the issue?
 
People have already answered your bolded question 1000 times here.  In the history of footbal, until Sunday night, nobody cared about the exact pressure of the football as long as it looked and behaved like a football.  Some refs, on certain days, in certain moods, with lots of other important responsibilities, might cut corners and "inspect" the balls by hand.
 

nattysez

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Prodigal Sox said:
 Yep after five days this is where I'm at also.  No sting.  Colts probably noticed the intercepted balls in the November game were underinflated and tested them.  When they got the ball they intercepted ball in the AFCCG they tested it, determined it was underinflated and notified the officials hoping the gamesmenship might help them out (at that point they were down 17-0) and they whole things has spiraled out of control with the leak to Kravitz.
 
I don't see how the balls could be deflated in ten minutes without some type of Ocean's Eleven type planning.  The balls were presented to the refs underinflated and they missed them.
 
I also think the League passing the investigation off to third parties will probably include investigating the ref's strories for veracity if they haven't come clean already.
 
Can we pin this as the Occam's Razor theory at the start of the thread?  I think a few people have proposed this, and it makes the most sense.  The refs were trying to protect their jobs because they had no idea how this would blow up and now everyone's got a problem that the NFL can't easily solve without creating all kinds of issues (lying and incompetent refs, Pats submitted underinflated balls (as everyone does), etc.).
 

twibnotes

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djbayko said:
 
 Some refs, on certain days, in certain moods, with lots of other important responsibilities, might cut corners and "inspect" the balls by hand.
Or just say to the equipment guy, "these good?"
 

soxfan80000001

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SumnerH said:
 
Physics doesn't tell you how an assortment of gauges are calibrated/what their margin of error is, nor how much air is let out in the process of measuring the ball.  
No, but thankfully in addition to physics, some supplementary common sense can be used. For example, common sense would dictate that the pressure of the ball be measured at the same temperature, both before and after the experiment to see if there was any air loss.  I guess though, at this point, common sense is probably too much to expect, yes?
 

twibnotes

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Here's another thing about deflating the balls post inspection: wouldn't it be risky in terms of ending up with a ball brady doesn't like?

In other words, if you are in the habit of inflating for inspection, then deflating back to Brady's preferred psi, how is that done without drawing attention?
 

Leather

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That's the thing: deflating the balls is so high risk, both in terms of getting caught and fucking them up, that it just flat out makes no sense. That's especially so given the completely benign impact such a maneuver would have on the ball/passes.
 

DukeSox

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johnmd20 said:
 
I think the point is you don't really need the gauge. The ref picks up the ball, he squeezes the ball, and if it feels ok to the touch, the ref says they are fine.
 
That might have happened.
I think this is the most likely case.
 

Leather

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I'm other words: it's been reported that the alleged deflation has virtually no actual benefit. Ergo; you'd have to think that, at one of the million practices Brady has attended, he'd ask himself if it was even worth it, test out some other balls, find there was no difference between a 10.5 and 12.5 ball, and NOT ENGAGE IN SUCH A STUPID SUBTERFUGE.
 

patinorange

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djbayko said:
 
And people should keep asking this question until it is answered.  Why wouldn't the NFL answer it today, in a statement they've had over 4 days to prepare?  And why instead did they seem to play word games and tap dance around the issue?
 
People have already answered your bolded question 1000 times here.  In the history of footbal, until Sunday night, nobody cared about the exact pressure of the football as long as it looked and behaved like a football.  Some refs, on certain days, in certain moods, with lots of other important responsibilities, might cut corners and "inspect" the balls by hand.
It would be awesome if the "inspection" was anything besides a gauge. I just can't believe they would be that stupid. We can hope.
 

twibnotes

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DukeSox said:
I think this is the most likely case.
The fact that this Occam's razor type answer is totally ignore by the media is so revealing. This team is HATED by the media. It's ten times worse than I thought a week ago (i.e., pre ballgate)
 

kartvelo

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patinorange said:
Not to pick on you personally but this question keeps getting asked. How else would they measure them? As dumb and confused as the NFL is on many subjects and issues, it's difficult to believe they would humiliate themselves and ruin the Super Bowl if they did not measure the balls with a gauge? Really.
I refer you to the contents of this thread.
 

Ed Hillel

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drleather2001 said:
That's the thing: deflating the balls is so high risk, both in terms of getting caught and fucking them up, that it just flat out makes no sense. That's especially so given the completely benign impact such a maneuver would have on the ball/passes.
Not trolling, but it wouldn't be the first time. Spygate was basically the definition of insanity.
 

Bone Chips

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drleather2001 said:
That's the thing: deflating the balls is so high risk, both in terms of getting caught and fucking them up, that it just flat out makes no sense. That's especially so given the completely benign impact such a maneuver would have on the ball/passes.
That's where I'm at. When I first heard this story my mind went to tampering after the pre-game inspection - in the locker room with a gauge. That assumed the sop of getting the balls back 2 hours before the game. But when I heard the Pats got the balls 10 minutes before kickoff, the idea of tampering becomes very illogical. For one thing, you now know something is up and the refs might be watching. Second, you'd have to do it on the field, in full view, with no time to do it, and in an uncontrolled environment. Doesn't make sense.
 

theapportioner

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nattysez said:
 
Can we pin this as the Occam's Razor theory at the start of the thread?  I think a few people have proposed this, and it makes the most sense.  The refs were trying to protect their jobs because they had no idea how this would blow up and now everyone's got a problem that the NFL can't easily solve without creating all kinds of issues (lying and incompetent refs, Pats submitted underinflated balls (as everyone does), etc.).
The NFL is basically looking for any iota of evidence that would get the refs/NFL off the hook.
 

PBDWake

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I mean, we had video on the sidelines in a regular season game between two of the worst teams in the league of a ball being put in a heater. How would we not have video in the AFC championship of this happening on the field? The teams are already out there 10 minutes before kickoff. Nobody's going to notice someone in there with a pressure gauge deflating the balls? Because, if Mort's report is to be believed (and I don't), then to get 11 of 12 balls to uniformly 2 pounds under is going to be pretty fucking obvious tampering.
 

Kevin Youkulele

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PBDWake said:
I mean, we had video on the sidelines in a regular season game between two of the worst teams in the league of a ball being put in a heater. How would we not have video in the AFC championship of this happening on the field? The teams are already out there 10 minutes before kickoff. Nobody's going to notice someone in there with a pressure gauge deflating the balls? Because, if Mort's report is to be believed (and I don't), then to get 11 of 12 balls to uniformly 2 pounds under is going to be pretty fucking obvious tampering.
I believe you've incorporated at least two unsupported assumptions into your post.  You don't need a pressure gauge to deflate - just a needle.  And I am unaware of any support for the notion that the 11 balls were uniformly 2 psi under the limit.  Even taking the hearsay in Mort's post at face value, it's not clear whether the 2 psi value is an average or something else.  Certainly, no standard deviation was given.
 

PBDWake

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As an addendum to the above, if Mort's report is true, and 11 out of 12 balls were 2 PSI under, and pretty much uniformly, instead of just all over the map and lazily reported, and the NFL report of being held til 10 minutes before kickoff is to be believed? Isn't, once again, the Occam's Razor response for not just this, but also the press conferences the Pats gave, that the refs fucked up? I mean, complete denial, total cooperation makes a ton of sense if you presented under inflated balls for the checkup. You KNOW that there is going to be zero evidence of tampering post inspection, and there are no witnesses for it, because it didn't happen. The reported PSI is what you gave to the refs pregame. You know that the league could spend the next 10 years investigating and not get a lick of evidence.
 

rodderick

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My girlfriend just called me after work and the first thing she says is "how can you root for a team that cheats like that?". I know she's aware that I'm a Patriots fan, but the fact that this shit made the news here in fucking Brazil is incomprehensible to me. The headline in the country's biggest news site is literally "Cheating". 
 

soxfanSJCA

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Wilson Sporting Goods Co.
8750 W. Bryn Mawr Ave
Chicago, Illinois 60631 USA
 
Dear Wilson Sporting Goods,
My friends and I were having a conversation about over & under inflated footballs, and we were curious how the specification of
13 PSI +/- 0.5 PSI was determined by the National Football league.
 
Does Wilson recommended specific pressure gauges and a methodology that can reliably control this range of pressure?
If so, could you please let me know, and CC the NFL, they seem to be in a bit of a bind and i wanted to help them out!
Best regards,
A valued customer
 
 
 
 

PeaceSignMoose

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rodderick said:
My girlfriend just called me after work and the first thing she says is "how can you root for a team that cheats like that?". I know she's aware that I'm a Patriots fan, but the fact that this shit made the news here in fucking Brazil is incomprehensible to me. The headline in the country's biggest news site is literally "Cheating". 
 
She's still your girlfriend after that line??
 

riboflav

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Kevin Youkulele said:
I believe you've incorporated at least two unsupported assumptions into your post.  You don't need a pressure gauge to deflate - just a needle.  And I am unaware of any support for the notion that the 11 balls were uniformly 2 psi under the limit.  Even taking the hearsay in Mort's post at face value, it's not clear whether the 2 psi value is an average or something else.  Certainly, no standard deviation was given.
 
You're correct but for the record there is no way Brady is cool with someone just taking a needle and rushing to deflate 11 balls 5-10 minutes prior to kickoff with a needle and no objective way to measure that.
 

PBDWake

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Kevin Youkulele said:
I believe you've incorporated at least two unsupported assumptions into your post.  You don't need a pressure gauge to deflate - just a needle.  And I am unaware of any support for the notion that the 11 balls were uniformly 2 psi under the limit.  Even taking the hearsay in Mort's post at face value, it's not clear whether the 2 psi value is an average or something else.  Certainly, no standard deviation was given.
Sorry, I expounded on that in my next post. I'm just saying that the assumptions everyone seems to be basing their tossed grenades on indicate an, as previously phrased, "Ocean's Eleven level" operation. People talk about 11 balls 2 pounds under. To get that, you'd need something to measure. I doubt it's getting freehanded.
 

rodderick

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riboflav said:
 
You're correct but for the record there is no way Brady is cool with someone just taking a needle and rushing to deflate 11 balls 5-10 minutes prior to kickoff with a needle and no objective way to measure that.
 
Besides, wouldn't puncturing a ball with a needle mean the balls would keep deflating?
 

Ed Hillel

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If there's one country in the world that screams integrity when it comes to sports, it's certainly Brazil.
 

Scriblerus

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I keep coming back to the first meeting between the two teams, and that's where I feel like the Colts should be more of a part of the investigation.
 
If it's true that the Colts suspected the Patriots were using footballs that weren't up to regulations after the first game, why didn't they report it then?  That part of the story bothers me.  
They had no way of knowing for sure they would play the Patriots in the conference finals, so holding onto this information indicates to me that they were never interested in the integrity of the game.  If they were, they would have said something then. 
 
If they did report it, then why didn't the NFL contact the Patriots and let them know?