#DFG: Canceling the Noise

[lexrageorge]

When kickers are punting and kicking off, aren't they trying to soften or deflate the ball, even scuff it up a little?

Not sure how that's relevant.  Kicking off, you do see the kicker play with the ball, but that's not against the rules.  Punts and field goals are scrimmage plays, so the kicker/punter cannot even touch the ball before it's snapped.  
 
QB's scuff the ball during the week to their liking; again, that's allowable. 

 

[Corsi]

Geoff Schwartz ‏@geoffschwartz  5m5 minutes ago
So looks like deflating footballs is the equivalent of a pitcher doctoring a baseball. Only gets called out when ppl get pissed

 

[( . ) ( . ) and (_!_)]

This is still the NFL hype machine being a run away out of control league.  What purpose did it serve to leak the 11 of 12 balls things before the NFL was ready to comment on the whole affair?  This is about driving clicks and eyeballs, the Pats, Bills and Tom's legacy are just collateral damage.

 

[fairlee76]

 
This a thousand times. If anything was going to beat NE it was going to be Luck both literally and figuratively.  That they would feel the need to push the limits on offense is just plain stupid.  I find it hard to believe that 11 out of 12 was a coincidence or anything to do with the elements/game play etc.  This is not a good look.

Not a good look at all.  I am surprised that 11 of 12 allegedly came in under-inflated.  Hard to explain that one away once we get confirmation that the balls were all at spec when the refs checked them 2 hours before the game.

 

[Ferm Sheller]

I am reserving judgment and refraining from over-reacting until more facts come out (from the NFL), but I think the simplest conclusion is that the Pats fill the balls up to the level that they prefer by feel (without measuring psi with any gauge), hand them to the refs for approval, and the refs are in the habit of "rubber stamping" their approval.  The Pats probably figure that if there are any issues, it's on the refs as arbiters of the game to ensure that the balls are in compliance.  My guess is that many of the refs, who are full-time lawyers, accountants, salesmen, etc. during the work week distracted by other professional issues, don't test the footballs with any gauge and don't take this aspect of the job particularly seriously, probably because the league doesn't stress it.  If the ball "feels right", it's good to go.  They don't give much thought to inflation discrepancies, which explains why none of them had any issues despite handling the Pats' ball (no pun intended) all game without any issue. The refs' habitual inattention to compliance allows guys like Rodgers to play with overly-pumped balls, Brady to play with under-pumped balls, and who knows who else in the NFL to play with balls that are outside the 12.5 - 13.5 psi range.    
 
If anything, this is the Pats (and Rodgers and who knows who else) taking advantage of lax compliance testing procedures.  That's on the NFL. 

 

[wilked]

Let's try and inject some science in here...
 
Let's say the lower spec is 12.5, and let's further say this is measured with an analog pressure gauge with at most 1/2 psi marks.  Each QB is going to like his footballs on the high end or low end; safe to say at this point Brady likes his on the low end and lets the ball prep crew know this.
 
If Tom Brady tells me he likes his footballs at the lowest possible pressure you can be sure I am going to push that limit as much as I can, so I supply them at more like 12.0, maybe even 11.5 if history tells me I can get away with it.  The referees probably have a hundred things on their mind pre-game and ball inspection won't be tops for them, they check and say close enough, balls are entered into play.
 
Temp drop from the game took the balls down another 0.5 psi, so now we are close to 11.
 
League tests the balls, and find most around 11 psi, maybe one at 10.5.  Mayhem ensues
 
This is not making a story up to fit the details, most of this is very likely close to the truth.  If there is some damning evidence that the balls were interfered with once the game starts I won't defend it, but beyond that this is a bunch of crap that could have come from any post-game ball inspection.

 

[DennyDoyle'sBoil]

Do they use the game balls during warmups?

The story really does seem to be breaking down to whether Anderson measured psi before the game or not. If he did, barring weather as an explanation, there don't seem like too many good answers or outcomes. Esoteric possibilities like defective batch of balls, I guess. Or maybe Brady says the balls felt hard in warmups so he asked for them to be softened not understanding when the ref's inspection occurs. That would be a pretty serious credibility question.

 

[Van Everyman]

From 2013 interview with college equipment manager:
 

 

Was just trying to post that. So assuming this is true of professional football as well, it would appear that we are headed for yet another example of Belichick being excoriated for simply being a product of mainstream football culture the league would rather we not know about. 

 

[dcmissle]

Agree FS. And if that's the case, this disappears.

 

[Ed Hillel]

 
If anything, this is the Pats (and Rodgers and who knows who else) taking advantage of lax compliance testing procedures.  That's on the NFL. 

I agree, but the question is does the league protect the shield? If their refs fucked up, is it in their best interest to say that, or to just deflect blame to New England?

 

[cutman1000]

Not gonna lie: this makes me feel sick. I don't care if every team does it.

The patriots 1) did not need to cheat to be the shitty ass Colts and 2) have to realize that they are under the microscope when it comes to the rules. What a stupid thing to do. I hope there is a good explanation, but until then I don't want to read or watch ANYTHING leading up to the Super Bowl.

 

[Reverend]

Let's try and inject some science in here...
Let's say the lower spec is 12.5, and let's further say this is measured with an analog pressure gauge with at most 1/2 psi marks.  Each QB is going to like his footballs on the high end or low end; safe to say at this point Brady likes his on the low end and lets the ball prep crew know this.
 
If Tom Brady tells me he likes his footballs at the lowest possible pressure you can be sure I am going to push that limit as much as I can, so I supply them at more like 12.0, maybe even 11.5 if history tells me I can get away with it.  The referees probably have a hundred things on their mind pre-game and ball inspection won't be tops for them, they check and say close enough, balls are entered into play.
 
Temp drop from the game took the balls down another 0.5 psi, so now we are close to 11.
 
League tests the balls, and find most around 11 psi, maybe one at 10.5.  Mayhem ensues
 
This is not making a story up to fit the details, most of this is very likely close to the truth.  If there is some damning evidence that the balls were interfered with once the game starts I won't defend it, but beyond that this is a bunch of crap that could have come from any post-game ball inspection.

What possible basis could you have for conjecturing what kind of pressure gauge the league uses?

We really don't need people just making shit up here.

 

[jose melendez]

That  Johnson thing is kind of amazing.  He actually bribed people to prepare the balls to his liking?

 

[Corsi]

I am reserving judgment and refraining from over-reacting until more facts come out (from the NFL), but I think the simplest conclusion is that the Pats fill the balls up to the level that they prefer by feel (without measuring psi with any gauge), hand them to the refs for approval, and the refs are in the habit of "rubber stamping" their approval.  The Pats probably figure that if there are any issues, it's on the refs as arbiters of the game to ensure that the balls are in compliance.  My guess is that many of the refs, who are full-time lawyers, accountants, salesmen, etc. during the work week distracted by other professional issues, don't test the footballs with any gauge and don't take this aspect of the job particularly seriously, probably because the league doesn't stress it.  If the ball "feels right", it's good to go.  They don't give much thought to inflation discrepancies, which explains why none of them had any issues despite handling the Pats' ball (no pun intended) all game without any issue. The refs' habitual inattention to compliance allows guys like Rodgers to play with overly-pumped balls, Brady to play with under-pumped balls, and who knows who else in the NFL to play with balls that are outside the 12.5 - 13.5 psi range.    
 
If anything, this is the Pats (and Rodgers and who knows who else) taking advantage of lax compliance testing procedures.  That's on the NFL. 

 
This seems reasonable to me, but can we trust the NFL to fall on the sword here?  I certainly don't.

 

[Dogman]

I agree, but the question is does the league protect the shield? If their refs fucked up, is it in their best interest to say that, or to just deflect blame to New England?

 
Given what happened with the replacement refs, I don't think the answer is complicated.

 

[Stitch01]

I still think the punishment is going to be a lot lighter than some people think if its just deflated balls and no real evidence. Unless a smoking gun turns up like an equipment manager saying he deflated the balls at BBs request its real hard to lay down the hammer.

 

[P'tucket rhymes with...]

If they deflated the balls after inspection then they're fucking morons and deserve penalties on that basis alone.

Honestly, given the mark already on their record and the way they're viewed by the rest of the league, if this turns out to be a case of them successfully sneaking balls past inspection, they're equally as stupid.  The fact that it's another instance in which doing so leads to no competitive advantage just makes it that much more aggravating.
 
It's like some rich person who can't resist the temptation to shoplift a $7.99 package of tube socks or something.

 

[sonofgodcf]

Makes my hatred for Peyton Manning grow. This never would have happened if not for that big-foreheaded doofus a) losing a home playoff game to Indianapolis last week and b) demanding that he be able to treat the balls before the game.

I'm on my phone, so I can't check, but I'm almost positive this was a joint thing between Peyton and Brady. I think it was in a Peter King article a few years ago about the two teaming up to get the support of all the qb's and petition the league.

 

[Dogman]

I still think the punishment is going to be a lot lighter than some people think if its just deflated balls and no real evidence. Unless a smoking gun turns up like an equipment manager saying he deflated the balls at BBs request its real hard to lay down the hammer.

 
Right.  Outside of the refs not ensuring compliance pregame, conclusive evidence of someone working with or for the Pats is necessary here.

 

[wilked]

What possible basis could you have for conjecturing what kind of pressure gauge the league uses?

We really don't need people just making shit up here.

I am an engineer and have worked in manufacturing my whole life, around pressure gauges constantly, and have a good idea what is commonly used.  I have no idea what the league uses, yes, but I do have a good idea what is widely available and what everyone else commonly uses in practice

 

[Corsi]

ESPN is a joke.  They just had Steve Young on the air and they don't even bother to ask him about the prevalence of over/under-inflating footballs.  

 

[dcmissle]

 
This seems reasonable to me, but can we trust the NFL to fall on the sword here?  I certainly don't.

I believe the officials will own what they did. These are people with independent careers. They will not support a "deflated after" story that won't hold up.

 

[H78]

So, stupid question, but...
 
Has anyone taken a football, inflated it to 12.5 PSI, and left it outside, say, overnight, and then checked the PSI in the morning? Just so we can either consider or eliminate that as a possibility?

 

[TheoShmeo]

 
Right.  Outside of the refs not ensuring compliance pregame, conclusive evidence of someone working with or for the Pats is necessary here.

I would like to believe that but his is not a court of law.  The NFL can seemingly live with whatever level of proof, including only circumstantial evidence, that it wants.
 
What I mean is that I agree that it would only be fair to punish the Pats if there is some real proof of wrong doing, and I would expect that they will indeed only heavily penalize the Pats in that instance.  But they are not required to live by that standard.

 

[Joshv02]

I am an engineer and have worked in manufacturing my whole life, around pressure gauges constantly, and have a good idea what is commonly used.  I have no idea what the league uses, yes, but I do have a good idea what is widely available and what everyone else commonly uses in practice

Just to add to this, Jim Daopoulos says you can get the same gauge at a sporting good store.
https://twitter.com/RefereeJimD/status/557734950334910464

 

[Ferm Sheller]

I believe the officials will own what they did. These are people with independent careers. They will not support a "deflated after" story that won't hold up.

 
I see that Walt Andersen isn't a lawyer by trade (he's a dentist), so I imagine he won't lie.
 
 
 
(Hey!  I'm a lawyer, I can make that joke.)

 

[Jed Zeppelin]

I still think the punishment is going to be a lot lighter than some people think if its just deflated balls and no real evidence. Unless a smoking gun turns up like an equipment manager saying he deflated the balls at BBs request its real hard to lay down the hammer.

 
Heard this way too many times during Spygate to believe it now, evidence or no.
 
edit: Any excuse or reasoning involving bad pressure gauges or weather conditions or whatever is going to fall on deaf ears. Public perception is the only thing that matters here and it's already been firmly established. It decided Ray Rice's punishment and it's going to decide this. It would never have gotten this far if it were any other team.

 

[m0ckduck]

I agree, but the question is does the league protect the shield? If their refs fucked up, is it in their best interest to say that, or to just deflect blame to New England?

 
It's in their best interests to blame the refs. The story is forgotten about almost immediately if so, and the focus of the SB isn't 'ball-deflating, spying cheaters versus steroid-riddled madmen!'
 
The most worrying sign to me right now, as somebody upstream pointed out, is the report of 'distraught' league officials. They wouldn't be 'distraught' if this was just about refs flubbing the ball check. 

 

[Dogman]

I would like to believe that but his is not a court of law.  The NFL can seemingly live with whatever level of proof, including only circumstantial evidence, that it wants.
 
What I mean is that I agree that it would only be fair to punish the Pats if there is some real proof of wrong doing, and I would expect that they will indeed only heavily penalize the Pats in that instance.  But they are not required to live by that standard.

 
 
I think this is wrong. The NFL can and will punish but they will not do it severely without conclusive proof the NE doctored the balls post official inspection.  If they did punish without proper evidence, that would be a horrible precedent. 

 

[Corsi]

David Carr:
 

Carr, like several other quarterbacks, said Denver was one of the toughest places to play. He said he thought the ball expanded slightly at the altitude and felt slick because of the lower humidity. Before Houston’s preseason game at Denver, Carr instructed the ball boys to let a little air out of the Texans’ footballs.
 

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/03/sports/football/03football.html?fta=y&_r=0

 

[Van Everyman]

Everyone should read that Yahoo piece Corsi linked upthread about college football inflation. You can't read it without thinking that everybody—absolutely everybody—does this. And I don't mean, "They inflate it the way they want and hope that the refs don't notice." I mean, "Everybody deflates the balls after they pass inspection."

This is a rule the league intentionally overlooks for whatever reason. And Belichick must pay for this oversight.

 

[Koufax]

If the NFL is faced with a choice of making the Pats look bad or blaming themselves for lax supervision, which do you think they will choose?

 

[Reverend]

I am an engineer and have worked in manufacturing my whole life, around pressure gauges constantly, and have a good idea what is commonly used.  I have no idea what the league uses, yes, but I do have a good idea what is widely available and what everyone else commonly uses in practice

I use a digital gauge myself on my car tires, but I didn't bring it up because my experience is irrelevant to what the league does and seemed like a poor basis upon which to found any other conclusions beyond mere speculation.

I'm not arguing that analog gauges are not widely available, just that it's not relevant and this thread is unwieldy and rambling as it is.
 
Now this, on the other hand, offers some actual information that could be relevant:
 

Just to add to this, Jim Daopoulos says you can get the same gauge at a sporting good store.
https://twitter.com/RefereeJimD/status/557734950334910464
 

 

[jsinger121]

 

[H78]

And here's what I hope BB does in his first press SB conference.
 
"Yes, we altered the balls. It is against the rules. We did it to allow our quarterback to have a better grip. We're sorry if it had any influence on the outcome of that game or any other game. Now, while this may appear tasteless to some, here is a list of rules I know for a fact have been broken by every other team in the NFL. Here is what the Colts do. Here is what the Ravens do. Here is what the Jets do...etc...etc...etc. Your move now, commissioner, because here on forward we're going to focus on Seattle."

 

[Reggie's Racquet]

Jaws on mike and mike now.

 

[Dogman]

And here's what I hope BB does in his first press SB conference.
 
"Yes, we altered the balls. It is against the rules. We did it to allow our quarterback to have a better grip. We're sorry if it had any influence on the outcome of that game or any other game. Now, while this may appear tasteless to some, here is a list of rules I know for a fact have been broken by every other team in the NFL. Here is what the Colts do. Here is what the Ravens do. Here is what the Jets do...etc...etc...etc. Your move now, commissioner, because here on forward we're going to focus on Seattle."

 
Yeah, that isn't gonna happen. 

 

[tims4wins]

Apologies if this has already been linked but a very level headed reaction from Steve Young
 
http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=12202899

 

[Omar's Wacky Neighbor]

 
Right.  Outside of the refs not ensuring compliance pregame, conclusive evidence of someone working with or for the Pats something/anything is necessary here.

 

[SumnerH]

Someone smarter than me can weigh in, but they were off by 2 PSI, which seems like a lot to attribute to the weather, especially when it wasn't that cold out.

 
By my calculations*:
70F to 40F you'd go from 13 PSI to 11.43 PSI (27.7 to 26.13 PSI real pressure), or about 1.5 PSI lost.
70F to 50F you'd go from 13 PSI to 11.94 PSI (27.7 to 26.64 PSI real pressure), or about 1 PSI lost.
 
Note that the nominal pressure of a ball is really shorthand for "X PSI above the normal atmospheric pressure".    Normal atmospheric pressure is about 14.7 PSI; a ball that was measured at "13 PSI" was really at 27.7 PSI of total pressure**.  If it lost 2 PSI of pressure, then it went from 27.7 PSI to 25.7 PSI of total pressure: about a 7% loss.
 
For everyone doing the calculation, that difference is crucial.   If you throw 13 PSI into a Combined Gas Law Calculator for the pressure and then vary the temperature, you'll underestimate the effect of temperature significantly and come to the conclusion that the ball only loses about 0.4 PSI from the 70 to 50F change rather than something more like 1 full PSI.
 
*http://www.calculatoredge.com/chemical/combined%20gas%20law.htm double checked at http://www.1728.org/combined.htm
**If it were actually 13 PSI, it'd be lower pressure than the surrounding air--when you opened the valve, it'd suck in air rather than spewing air out.

 

[Ferm Sheller]

Jaws on mike and mike now.

 
 
"I've studied over 189 hours of the Pats-Colts game footage, and I truuuuully beeelieeeeeve that the ball had no affect on the ass-kicking the Pats dished out..."

 

[Bleedred]

Not gonna lie: this makes me feel sick. I don't care if every team does it.

The patriots 1) did not need to cheat to be the shitty ass Colts and 2) have to realize that they are under the microscope when it comes to the rules. What a stupid thing to do. I hope there is a good explanation, but until then I don't want to read or watch ANYTHING leading up to the Super Bowl.

This is where I am.   If this was done intentionally, even if it's the custom and practice to fudge, then it was colossally stupid and short sighted.  What a pain in the ass.

 

[Corsi]

MINNEAPOLIS -- The Minnesota Vikings played their coldest home game in 38 years on Sunday, when they beat the Carolina Panthers in 12-degree temperatures at TCF Bank Stadium. 
 
As both teams dealt with the freezing temperatures, Fox cameras showed sideline attendants using heaters to warm up game balls, which is against league rules. NFL vice president of officiating Dean Blandino said Monday morning on NFL Network that officials warned both the Vikings and Panthers not to heat up the balls during Sunday's game, and would remind teams this week not to heat game balls. 
 
"You can't do anything with the footballs in terms of any artificial, whether you're heating them up, whether it's a regular game ball or kicking ball, you can't do anything to the football," Blandino said. "So that was noticed during the game, both teams were made aware of it during the game and we will certainly remind the clubs as we get into more cold weather games that you can't do anything with the football in terms of heating them up with those sideline heaters." 
 

http://espn.go.com/blog/minnesota-vikings/post/_/id/11218/nfl-aware-of-game-ball-incident-during-panthers-vikings

 

[Ferm Sheller]

Keep 'em coming, Corsi.

 

[Jed Zeppelin]

Can we just pin it on the strength and conditioning coach and put it to rest like the Jets did when they were tripping players on the sideline.

 

[kartvelo]

So the facts as we think we know them are:
 
1) All 12 balls were approved for play by the officials prior to the first half (approval process unknown, PSI at that time unknown)
2) Those balls were measured prior to the second half; most were found to be underinflated and the situation was remedied (difference between pre-game PSI and halftime PSI unknown)
 
Since suspicion and envy don't qualify as evidence, we currently have zero evidence that anything was done to the balls after they were submitted to the officials pre-game, which would be the only rules violation the Patriots organization could be accused of.

 

[IdiotKicker]

I think we're missing the real injustice here which is that kickers are not allowed to even touch the K ball, while prima donna quarterbacks can do whatever they want because they're soooooooo popular. Level playing field my ass.

 

[SumnerH]

Yes, I was going to go back to bed but decided to look that up, 12.5 to 13.5 PSI. Too bad about any being around 10.5. If they were, say, 12.5 to begin with, the temperature difference could have taken them down to about 12.146. Out of range but they could say attributable to temperature. 10.5, no. Shit. 

 
Your math is off, remember that you're using the actual pressure for these calculations (a 12.5 PSI ball has 27.2 PSI of total pressure in it).  If you use the nominal PSI, you get results saying that it only loses about 0.4 PSI from the temperature change; that's wrong.  It's about 1.6 PSI from a 70F to 40F, or just over 1 PSI lost from 70F to 50F.
 
If they were 12.5 to begin with, temperature difference could take them to about 10.9 PSI (going from 70F to 40F).  Still not enough to explain the whole difference, but perhaps approaching the point where repeated measurements letting air out, game abuse, leaking over time, and precision of the meter could explain the difference.
 
Of course, if the measurements were taken Monday indoors, then temperature explains nothing.  I'm a little unclear on how that's possible if earlier reports that they inflated the balls to the proper level at halftime are true, but we'll have to see what the actual reports (rather than leaks) say.

 

[bakahump]

I am reserving judgment and refraining from over-reacting until more facts come out (from the NFL), but I think the simplest conclusion is that the Pats fill the balls up to the level that they prefer by feel (without measuring psi with any gauge), hand them to the refs for approval, and the refs are in the habit of "rubber stamping" their approval.  The Pats probably figure that if there are any issues, it's on the refs as arbiters of the game to ensure that the balls are in compliance.  My guess is that many of the refs, who are full-time lawyers, accountants, salesmen, etc. during the work week distracted by other professional issues, don't test the footballs with any gauge and don't take this aspect of the job particularly seriously, probably because the league doesn't stress it.  If the ball "feels right", it's good to go.  They don't give much thought to inflation discrepancies, which explains why none of them had any issues despite handling the Pats' ball (no pun intended) all game without any issue. The refs' habitual inattention to compliance allows guys like Rodgers to play with overly-pumped balls, Brady to play with under-pumped balls, and who knows who else in the NFL to play with balls that are outside the 12.5 - 13.5 psi range.    
 
If anything, this is the Pats (and Rodgers and who knows who else) taking advantage of lax compliance testing procedures.  That's on the NFL. 

I disagree.
 
I would love for this to happen, but am worried that the Pats will be "in the wrong place at the wrong time".
 
If the Refs are lax in their duties....that questions their integrity.  The NFL CANNOT allow that. The Refs may actually LIE and say "Umm yeah....we checked them....they all checked out fine....what happened after....uhh....maybe the Pats Ball Boy did something...but I did my job!"
 
Maybe I am naive,  but I believe the NFL would rather say "we had 1 renegade coach/team doing something wrong"  then "Our Refs had ignored a rule in our rule book, this is common.  We have asked them not to ignore this anymore."  Especially after this clusterf*ck of media coverage.
 
If the dont then every Fan of every team will wonder "Did the bears lose because the Refs were not doing their job?"

 

[tims4wins]

I think we're missing the real injustice here which is that kickers are not allowed to even touch the K ball, while prima donna quarterbacks can do whatever they want because they're soooooooo popular. Level playing field my ass.

 
Hey chicks dig the long ball
 
The most aggravating part of this whole thing to me is that one all world QB, Rodgers, likes them as inflated as possible, while another all world QB, Brady, likes them as soft as possible. If that is the case there is no competitive advantage to what the Pats did. But of course fans and media won't see it like that. Because #cheatriots.