#DFG: Canceling the Noise

[redsoxcentury]

@MattLeinartQB: Every team tampers with the footballs. Ask any Qb In the league, this is ridiculous!!

gotta wonder if a lot of current players, especially QB's, are pissed about the uproar about this. Expect the league to be strict about footballs now, which removes any overinflate/deflate advantage teams have been quietly getting.  Maybe they will take it out on the Colts next season.

 

[SumnerH]

One issue for all the good math and bad math PV=nRT stuff:
 
all of the calculations we've seen assume a constant volume, no?  If you're only solving to one variable (P) in relation to all the others.
 
(I'm not sure what the assumed internal volume of a football is).
 
But a football is a flexible container.  a. the cooler temp would contract the container some, but b. what effect might the cooler temp have on the containment pressure of the football?  The "looser" the container, the lower the pressure, for the same number of molecules.  While the cold might contract the material of the leather and bladder, it might have other effect on the binding and lacing.  
 
My guess is it would tend to very slighy counteract the temperature/pressure connection, but I don't really know.

The change in volume is negligible.  Yeah, technically it's non-zero but the bladder doesn't even get anywhere near 5% bigger/smaller (probably not even 1%).  You can safely ignore it for practical purposes.
 
Now, if tackles/spikes/etc cause air spurts out the valve or damage the bladder and cause a leak, that could affect things.  You'd expect that to be nonuniform across balls.

 

[H78]

@MattLeinartQB: Every team tampers with the footballs. Ask any Qb In the league, this is ridiculous!! I never tampered with mine enough!

 
Fixed.

 

[Silverdude2167]

 
The game in which Brady threw 2 picks and Jonas Gray ran for 200? How fucking dumb is that?

It is the Colts what do you expect. Same team that got the rules changed after 2003. Meet the new boss same as the old boss, they will never except that they could suck. The Pats must be doing something!

 

[Marciano490]

Mort is on ESPN right now predicting an official NFL statement/details today or tomorrow.
 
Then he's going into depth about how Indy felt NE was using under-inflated balls in their earlier game this year and were ready to make a stink about it.

 
So then what do they gain by making an after the fact complaint.  If they were so worried, why not make sure the refs properly checked before the game when it mattered, not at halftime when they - given how the prior few games went - might have been too far behind to catch up. 

 

[IdiotKicker]

If the NFL really wanted to piss Belichick off they would take away his ability to trade draft picks for a year.

 

[Leather]

It is the Colts what do you expect. Same team that got the rules changed after 2003. Meet the new boss same as the old boss, they will never except that they could suck. The Pats must be doing something!

 
What makes it so chickenshit is that, if they were legitimately concerned about fair play, they would have reported it, regardless.  Not waited until they got their asses handed to them again.  The fact that they didn't think it was a big enough deal to report the first time just reinforces the notion that it's simply not a big deal in any other context.

 

[MiracleOfO2704]

If I'm every other team in the NFL, I'm probably pretty pissed at the Colts right now. The Pats were wrong for doing this, but to actually be the team that reports it - as if it's really the reason you're constantly losing by 20+ points - now puts a special spotlight on ball quality before every single NFL game moving forward.
 
Rogers now will have to live with 12.5-13.5 PSI. Balls will likely no longer be used for practice. Manning and Brady will no longer get to "scrub" the game balls or whatever before games. Whatever anyone else does - forget it.
 
All because of your sour grapes, Pagano and Co.

 
That's where I'm at too. I don't blame Brady, Manning, Rodgers, and essentially every other team in the NFL for taking advantage of a poorly written and even more poorly placed rule. Hell, imagine if MLB did this, allowing pitchers to use their own game balls that need only meet a small number or specifications in a brief pre-game inspection.
 
As far as the Colts' reaction, it's akin to the team that notices the 3rd base coach is about 10 feet from home plate and, knowing their 3rd base coach doesn't use those kinds of angles all that often but everyone else in the league does, complains to the umps that the coach is out of his box. It's an inane rule from a different time where coaches wandering was a problem for the game. What makes the rule worse here is that a handful of the game's elite quarterbacks wanted to skew the playing field to their advantage and the league gave it the okay. I don't seem to remember there being an outcry of stifling defenses that required our quarterbacks to have things done their way. In the meantime, a league that already has trouble keeping its member teams' players in line is now allowing the game balls to be in the hands of the teams involved the entire week prior, with said teams able to make alterations as they see fit.
 
In a logical world, the NFL admits the rule change was a horrible idea and reverts game ball control to the league, beginning with the Super Bowl. Unless the Patriots can be proven to have altered the balls on the sidelines, slap them on the wrists with the $25k fine, and even then, I'm not comfortable with the Patriots being fined without absolute proof of wrongdoing. Sadly, all the evidence the public and, just as likely, the league will get is a flimsy report of all the Patriots balls being underinflated without any real proof of anything happening and Goodell will Goodell this decision in some horrible, stupid way.

 

[Silverdude2167]

 
So then what do they gain by making an after the fact complaint.  If they were so worried, why not make sure the refs properly checked before the game when it mattered, not at halftime when they - given how the prior few games went - might have been too far behind to catch up. 

Because they knew that when the proper balls were in play they would give up 28 points in about 20 minutes of play...

 

[H78]

If I'm every other team in the NFL, I'm probably pretty pissed at the Colts right now. The Pats were wrong for doing this, but to actually be the team that reports it - as if it's really the reason you're constantly losing by 20+ points - now puts a special spotlight on ball quality before every single NFL game moving forward.
 
Rodgers now will have to live with 12.5-13.5 PSI. Balls will likely no longer be used for practice. Manning and Brady will no longer get to "scrub" the game balls or whatever before games. Whatever anyone else does - forget it.
 
All because of your sour grapes, Pagano and Co.

 
 

gotta wonder if a lot of current players, especially QB's, are pissed about the uproar about this. Expect the league to be strict about footballs now, which removes any overinflate/deflate advantage teams have been quietly getting.  Maybe they will take it out on the Colts next season.

 

I, uh, agree

 

[The Social Chair]

If the NFL really wanted to piss Belichick off they would take away his ability to trade draft picks for a year.

Or put the Pats on Hard Knocks.

 

[wiffleballhero]

If you have anything that backs up I'd be really interested in seeing it until that happens I'm going to assume you are just making shit up.

I am absolutely making shit up because I find it absurd to normalize the idea that a bunch of footballs are completely stable objects given many factors in play (time, temp. water, tackles, spikes, etc.).
 

 

[Corsi]

Jeff Zrebiec ‏@jeffzrebiecsun  48m48 minutes ago
Harbaugh said Ravens diin't notice anything about not-inflated balls. Said that kicking balls were soft but attributed that to weather

 

[Corsi]

SportsCenter ‏@SportsCenter  2m2 minutes ago
UPDATE: League sources confirm footballs were properly inspected & approved by ref 2 hours and 15 minutes before kickoff. (via @mortreport)

 

[steveluck7]

For the life of me, I can't see the official ball boy deflating the balls out on the field in front of fans/cameras and such. And for the ball boy to do it in Indy (as was insinuated) in front of a hostile crowd.. that takes moxie.

but isn't the idea now that the ball boys, while technically NFL employees, are local kids? Wouldn't the ball boy in Indy be an Indy kid? Why would he deflate balls for the Patriots?

 

[DukeSox]

the shitty thing about this is that you KNOW the NFL will be closely checking the balls ahead of the super bowl, which is the real problem - Brady's balls won't be how he likes them (though neither will Wilson's, if he prefers out of spec)

 

[IdiotKicker]

Or put the Pats on Hard Knocks.

 
Don't forget about requiring a suit for Belichick on gamedays. Preferabbly with BB on the sleeve somewhere.

 

[Harry Hooper]

Yes. Only two scenarios. Balls were severely under weight going in or they were doctored. No need to discuss weather impact or other factors.

 
I think you can understand the NFL not wanting to discuss weepy sphincters.

 

[Leather]

 
 
 
I, uh, agree

 
Yes. It's very much like the Lester green goop and Buchholz Bullfrog stuff.   Every team does it, it's technically against the rules, but in practice the rule is ignored by so many people that it's basically foolish to go by the letter of the rule.  
 
Remember the Kenny Rodgers pine tar palm?  This is that.  Except, not, because it's the Patriots and Goodell is a fucking ass.

 

[DukeSox]

 
SportsCenter ‏@SportsCenter  2m2 minutes ago
UPDATE: League sources confirm footballs were properly inspected & approved by ref 2 hours and 15 minutes before kickoff. (via @mortreport)
 

aka the ref said "yeah boss, we def did check them, promise!" - i can't imagine there is any documentation procedure that goes along with this pregame check.

 

[CaptainLaddie]

Or put the Pats on Hard Knocks.

I suspect BB would retire before that ever came to fruition.

 

[Leather]

the shitty thing about this is that you KNOW the NFL will be closely checking the balls ahead of the super bowl, which is the real problem - Brady's balls won't be how he likes them (though neither will Wilson's, if he prefers out of spec)

 
If I had to bet my life, I'd bet that Brady is practicing these two weeks with balls that are dead-on-balls accurately compliant.

 

[H78]

 
Jeff Zrebiec ‏@jeffzrebiecsun  48m48 minutes ago
Harbaugh said Ravens diin't notice anything about not-inflated balls. Said that kicking balls were soft but attributed that to weather
 

 
AKA, 'We're not getting in on this pile-on because Joe doesn't want to have to give up his pre-game ritual!"

 

[OnWisc]

I've been advocating for years the need for officials to measure the PSI of the ball in between every play (aside from kneel-downs). The 12.5 and 13.5 PSI range now mandated by the NFL is far from arbitrary and, I believe, was originally prescribed by Amos Alonzo Stagg as being an absolute requirement for the game to be considered "real" football. Anyone watching Sunday's game without realizing that ball was clearly below PSI spec was either drunk, watching their first pro football game, or both.

In addition to ensuring that the game is played as originally intended, checking the ball between plays would take the whole thing out of the coaches hands and avoid the exact situation we're in right now. One of the things I love about the two weeks before the Super Bowl are the background pieces on the adversity faced by one of the team's backup safeties when their high school almost eliminated football their junior year. Now instead the media is wholly devoted to a thorough and accurate determination of what happened to the game balls last week. Ugh.

 

[m0ckduck]

This is a PR goatfuck, the latest in a long line of goatfucks this season, and the prospect of putting the hammer down on the "bad boy" coach as a way of restoring law and order as well as appeasing the 31 other teams is going to be mightily tempting.

 
Yeah, but then they're tainting their own product as well by tarring one of the SB contestants.
 
The NFL under Goodell is nothing if not PR-driven and calculated. If no new smoking gun emerges in either direction (i.e. either directly incriminating Belichick, or raising doubts that the refs checked the balls), I expect the league reaction will be equal parts...
 
A) every team does this; it didn't materially effect the game; it sucks that we got here, BUT:
B) everybody's watching; it's the recidivist Patriots; we have to show that the rule of law prevails here
 
Therefore, I would expect the punishment to draw a line right down the middle between the dire punishments anticipated by some here and the no-punishment-at-all predicted by others. Something like loss of a mid-round pick, significant monetary fine, no suspension for Belichick. Whatever will produce the least overall blowback. 

 

[Bone Chips]

For the life of me, I can't see the official ball boy deflating the balls out on the field in front of fans/cameras and such. And for the ball boy to do it in Indy (as was insinuated) in front of a hostile crowd.. that takes moxie.

It's pretty easy to do. Just stick a needle in the ball for 2 seconds. Plenty of ways to do this inconspicuously. Pitchers do more to baseballs on the mound during games.

 

[Marciano490]

Doesn't the fact that the rules contemplate each team providing its own balls imply if not encourage there to be some ball modification done by either team according to their preferences?  I get that it's supposed to be done with guidelines, but this seems like using longer or shorter than regulation cleat length because you prioritize either traction or speed.

 

[86spike]

Mark Brunell, Jerome Bettis and Louis Riddick are live on ESPN right now with 2 balls and all are gushing over how much better it is to play with the lighter ball.
 
gushing.

 

[Kenny F'ing Powers]

the shitty thing about this is that you KNOW the NFL will be closely checking the balls ahead of the super bowl, which is the real problem - Brady's balls won't be how he likes them (though neither will Wilson's, if he prefers out of spec)

Really killed them in the second half against Indy.

 

[H78]

I'm just hoping Russell Wilson's hands are proportionate to his height and 12.5-13.5 PSI in the beautiful, dry desert affects his grip.

 

[Tito's Pullover]

Therefore, I would expect the punishment to draw a line right down the middle between the dire punishments anticipated by some here and the no-punishment-at-all predicted by others. Something like loss of a mid-round pick, significant monetary fine, no suspension for Belichick. Whatever will produce the least overall blowback. 

I'm okay with the loss of a middle round pick.  BB will just have to draft that projected 7th rounder in the 4th rather than the 3rd.

 

[djbayko]

Really killed them in the second half against Indy.

He means they won't be broken in the way Brady likes them. The balls in last week's 2nd half were inflated correctly but still broken in.

 

[Corsi]

Mark Brunell, Jerome Bettis and Louis Riddick are live on ESPN right now with 2 balls and all are gushing over how much better it is to play with the lighter ball.
 
gushing.

 
problem is, all these ex-jocks on ESPN/NFLN have been railroaded by the Pats over the past 15 years, so there's no benefit of the doubt with any of them.

 

[DennyDoyle'sBoil]

Kind of interesting little factoid from the Wilson website.  Apparently, the Super Bowl balls have the teams' logos on them, so cannot be provided to the teams until after the championship games.  Wilson creates 120 balls for the game, and 12 kicker balls, and works through the night the Sunday of the championship games to get them shipped to the teams the next day, presumably so that each team can start doing its funky magic to get the ball just right for its QB.
 
http://www.wilson.com/en-us/football/nfl/wilson-and-the-nfl/trivia/

 

[Auger34]

The other thing that gets called into question here is if Indy knew they were going to file a complaint, and based on what has been recently said, sure as shit seems that way isn't it possible and maybe even likely the Colts didn't engage in any of the ball scuffing tricks they might normally do?

 

[simplyeric]

regarding all of the issues about how the QB's qill be pissed because nfl will change all the rules and not allow them to be used for practice, etc:
 
It would be damned easy to let the teams do whatever they already do, and just submit the balls to the refs.  Then it becomes mandatory for the refs to pump them up to 13psi.  They are then placed on a rack with a (non-destructive) pressure guage just plugged into all of them.  They just sit in the rack like a bunch of turkeys with thermometers (well, tiny pigs with pressure guages) stuck in them.  Any ball that, over time, falls below the desired value (currently 12.5) is discarded (maybe the bladder is compromised), and only balls that continue to register proper pressure are used.
 
I mean, it's a metal box and a bunch of pressure valves.  It wouldn't be hard to do.

 

[SumnerH]

The other thing that gets called into question here is if Indy knew they were going to file a complaint, and based on what has been recently said, sure as shit seems that way isn't it possible and maybe even likely the Colts didn't engage in any of the ball scuffing tricks they might normally do?

 
Why?  Ball scuffing's perfectly legal.

 

[Marciano490]

I'm just hoping Russell Wilson's hands are proportionate to his height and 12.5-13.5 PSI in the beautiful, dry desert affects his grip.

 
He has 10 1/4" hands:
 
http://www.nfl.com/combine/profiles/russell-wilson?id=2532975
 
Apparently, that's pretty large:
 
Johnny Manziel, Texas A&M (9 7/8)
Blake Bortles, Central Florida (9 3/8)
Teddy Bridgewater, Louisville (9 1/4)
Tajh Boyd, Clemson (9 5/8)
Derek Carr, Fresno State (9 1/8)
AJ McCarron, Alabama (10)
Jimmy Garoppolo, Eastern Illinois (9 1/4)
Aaron Murray, Georgia (9 1/8)
 
http://espn.go.com/blog/boston/new-england-patriots/post/_/id/4759228/combine-report-qbs-and-hand-size

 

[Silverdude2167]

regarding all of the issues about how the QB's qill be pissed because nfl will change all the rules and not allow them to be used for practice, etc:
 
It would be damned easy to let the teams do whatever they already do, and just submit the balls to the refs.  Then it becomes mandatory for the refs to pump them up to 13psi.  They are then placed on a rack with a (non-destructive) pressure guage just plugged into all of them.  They just sit in the rack like a bunch of turkeys with thermometers (well, tiny pigs with pressure guages) stuck in them.  Any ball that, over time, falls below the desired value (currently 12.5) is discarded (maybe the bladder is compromised), and only balls that continue to register proper pressure are used.
 
I mean, it's a metal box and a bunch of pressure valves.  It wouldn't be hard to do.

The league is a non profit, you really think they have the money for that...

 

[Stitch01]

The other thing that gets called into question here is if Indy knew they were going to file a complaint, and based on what has been recently said, sure as shit seems that way isn't it possible and maybe even likely the Colts didn't engage in any of the ball scuffing tricks they might normally do?

I actually think the powers that be in the Indy organization are just dumb enough to that even though "hey, lets mess with our own QB during the AFC title game on the off chance we can make a big deal about this after the game" is a really bad line of thought.
 

 

[Leather]

The other thing that gets called into question here is if Indy knew they were going to file a complaint, and based on what has been recently said, sure as shit seems that way isn't it possible and maybe even likely the Colts didn't engage in any of the ball scuffing tricks they might normally do?

 
The problem for the Pats in this regard, and for Spygate, is that the league has nothing to gain by digging any further than it has to to "weed out" "the problem".    
 
If anything, the NFL will discourage other teams and players from commenting o the fairness of any penalty, or talking about rules they break.
 
It's not civil court, it's a business.

 

[sodenj5]

I'm just hoping Russell Wilson's hands are proportionate to his height and 12.5-13.5 PSI in the beautiful, dry desert affects his grip.

 
Wilson has monster mitts.
 
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/09/upshot/big-hands-small-colleges-and-the-nfl-draft.html?_r=0&abt=0002&abg=1

 

[H78]

 
He has 10 1/4" hands:
 
http://www.nfl.com/combine/profiles/russell-wilson?id=2532975
 
Apparently, that's pretty large:
 
Johnny Manziel, Texas A&M (9 7/8)
Blake Bortles, Central Florida (9 3/8)
Teddy Bridgewater, Louisville (9 1/4)
Tajh Boyd, Clemson (9 5/8)
Derek Carr, Fresno State (9 1/8)
AJ McCarron, Alabama (10)
Jimmy Garoppolo, Eastern Illinois (9 1/4)
Aaron Murray, Georgia (9 1/8)
 
http://espn.go.com/blog/boston/new-england-patriots/post/_/id/4759228/combine-report-qbs-and-hand-size

 
Edit: meh too mean.

 

[Norm loves Vera]

It's pretty easy to do. Just stick a needle in the ball for 2 seconds. Plenty of ways to do this inconspicuously. Pitchers do more to baseballs on the mound during games.

Bone.. I see what your point is, but pitchers at least have a glove.  If the Ball boy is given custody of the balls in the locker room or off the field, then that makes manipulating the ball easier to pull off. 
 
If reports are true, that all the balls were checked after the half, it seems unlikely Belichick nor Brady could not have known about it.  Both were quoted they learned of the issue monday am. 
 
Regardless, screw the Colts and their beat writers who are claiming they are protecting the morality/sanctity of the game.  Weren't they notorious for turning up the speakers when opposing teams played there.  Tell me that isn't overtly trying to change the out come of a game from outside the lines of the playing field.

 

[jose melendez]

 
The problem for the Pats in this regard, and for Spygate, is that the league has nothing to gain by digging any further than it has to to "weed out" "the problem".    
 
If anything, the NFL will discourage other teams and players from commenting o the fairness of any penalty, or talking about rules they break.
 
It's not civil court, it's a business.

I'd argue that was one of the issues in Bountygate.  The League wanted to pretend like this kind of crap was a rare instance of one team misbehaving, as oppossed to systematic.

 

[WayBackVazquez]

Jerome Bettis is painfully dumb.

 

[TomRicardo]

 
Wilson has monster mitts.
 
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/09/upshot/big-hands-small-colleges-and-the-nfl-draft.html?_r=0&abt=0002&abg=1

 
Rodgers has small hands actually 9.38"

 

[Leather]

I'd argue that was one of the issues in Bountygate.  The League wanted to pretend like this kind of crap was a rare instance of one team misbehaving, as oppossed to systematic.

 
At some point, you'd think/hope that the teams would say "Enough", and put pressure on Goodell to cut the crap.  Not every violation is a threat to league PR.  At some point, you start cutting off your nose to spite your face.

 

[Marciano490]

 
Rodgers has small hands actually 9.38"

 
Hopefully, the speculation and hypothesizing in this thread will all chill for a bit while we all run off to measure our hands.

 

[Filet-O-Fisk]

Considering the size of the NFL rulebook, and the fact that Belichick is a known pusher of boundaries, the question is not IF BB is pushing boundaries, it is HOW MANY boundaries he is pushing.   I'd wager that there were at least a dozen boundaries being pushed in the Indy game. For the Super Bowl, probably two dozen.  As far as boundary pushing goes, that's a lot.