Right, but that's the low-end scenario. Oden could be better than that, which I find a little scary. Some folks may have forgotten how good he was when healthy.HomeRunBaker said:
Miami Heat: Pat Riley's Grease Fire
- Thread starter CaptainLaddie
- Start date
Brickowski said:
Oh i totally agree. It's a great move by Miami and the best place for Greg to begin his comeback IF he can get healthy enough to return to the court which is no guarantee.
Lebron calls out KG and Pierce as hypocrites
Except for the fact that KG and Pierce were traded and Ray Allen signed with the Heat for less money than Boston offered, he is dead on balls right. Why the hell did Jay Payton sign here anyway?!?!
Except for the fact that KG and Pierce were traded and Ray Allen signed with the Heat for less money than Boston offered, he is dead on balls right. Why the hell did Jay Payton sign here anyway?!?!
I am no fan of LeBron, but I think KG waiving his no trade to get out of town makes him look a little full of shit when it comes to his "Celtic for life" talk. Besides, given the amount of trashtalk PP and KG allegedly directed LeBron's way over the years, LeBron has to take his shots where he can. Or, he could be classy and keep his mouth shut...nah.tims4wins said:
The no trade clause is unique though, in that he waived it after the trade was in the works. When a team is willing to trade you, I dont think you are a hypocrite for previously saying you would be with them for life. its not like he pushed his way out, he actually did the franchise a huge favor by agreeing to the trade
There's also the fact that going to Miami was blatant ring-chasing, while the others went to a shittier team.
I'm really not sure how anybody can blame Ray Allen for leaving at this point. In his last couple of years in Boston, he had to deal with a lot of trade rumors, and ultimately saw the writing on the wall about about the end of the Big 3 era. Had he stuck around, he'd have been traded this summer too, and who knows if the situation he'd have found himself in would be as good as Brooklyn. Signing with the Heat for the smaller deal allowed him to control his own destiny and compete for championships. Maybe he burned some bridges by not sticking around for that final year in Boston, but it seems pretty clear to me that his decision to leave was justified by the events that followed.
Well, to be fair Ray was offered a deal with a no trade clause, so his destiny would have been in his own hands here.
If you want to make the case for Ray leaving, I think it revolves around the change in his role. In Miami he got to move down the totem pole in the best player list, he gets to just sit outside and wait for kickout passes and as a result his career is extended and he can have a nice effective ride into the sunset. Here as the 3rd offensive option his declining skills were going to be on full display, which isnt a particularly fun way to end your career. Its the same reason the Nets trade is good for KG and PP, they get to finish out their careers without carrying a team and the end of their careers will be enjoyable.
If you want to make the case for Ray leaving, I think it revolves around the change in his role. In Miami he got to move down the totem pole in the best player list, he gets to just sit outside and wait for kickout passes and as a result his career is extended and he can have a nice effective ride into the sunset. Here as the 3rd offensive option his declining skills were going to be on full display, which isnt a particularly fun way to end your career. Its the same reason the Nets trade is good for KG and PP, they get to finish out their careers without carrying a team and the end of their careers will be enjoyable.
There's also all the stuff that came out after Ray left about being a big selfish crybaby whose ego could not handle the ever-changing team dynamics and his role in them. Apparently, he pouted and wasn't very adept at hiding his contempt for certain teammates and the head coach.
His departure sounds a bit different from PP and KG.
His departure sounds a bit different from PP and KG.
fairlee76 said:
Sorry, the Heat. Obviously not the Celtics, though if we were talking about the 12/13 Celtics it would be more of a question.
I agree with you on both counts, but Ray's prima donna reputation preceded his arrival in Boston. The media chose to ignore that when he arrived and play it up when he left.riboflav said:
Alright. Just checking. Even with KG and PP, I see this year's Celtics as below the Nets but certainly not by much.cromulence said:
Just out of curiosity, what are your win predictions for Brooklyn and Boston? I would be shocked if the Celtics finish within 20 games of Brooklyn.fairlee76 said:
I agree. I was saying that the Celtics with KG and PP are still a worse team than Brooklyn. As for win totals, it really depends on Rondo. If he returns in mid-December, I could see them winning 30-35 games for the season. If they decide to hold him out until just before the ASG and trade deadline, I think they win 20-25 games.NWsoxophile said:
As for Brooklyn, they seem a lock for at least 50 wins. Maybe edging towards 60 if guys stay healthy and PP and KG flourish in their limited roles.
http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/10080338/lebron-james-nba-most-highly-evolved-offense
great rundown by Lebron on the heat's offense, with neat infographics as well
great rundown by Lebron on the heat's offense, with neat infographics as well
https://v.cdn.vine.co/v/videos/608EDC1A-0CFC-4BF2-A82B-800BF1A94B33-1077-0000005DBCB784BE_1.1.1.mp4?versionId=FrUzc3KTJBHAtz1epV4vDoS56xnKuwUE
https://mtc.cdn.vine.co/r/videos/DDFAF0F0361032750114344722432_1c39067db81.4.6.15582369863937810011_EJrW1P8Ccuq0SXPBc0VhHMHmvjeYCMG.Yfk8yKOlR5oS2kWJdXegCaFpZG1RIhfn.mp4?versionId=1_loHlFZOyO8JiLlMQ.02U56.FTpI8Lz
https://mtc.cdn.vine.co/r/videos/3FFC63B8121033952220917669888_1cd6a02c47e.4.4.7977368227225857470_soWcwnd6mu6xblfvJhZPcpr29YFFLNRHNOQ1WJUJA3u51NPt1Ld.bLN9TFxyLuzL.mp4?versionId=53Ze_XPj8EN1fj9fD2h1AwGHV2KvGN42
http://www.thepostgame.com/blog/dish/201401/new-internet-trend-lebroning-mocks-heat-stars-exaggerated-flops
Oden remarkable is again effective when able to play. 5 min, 6 pts on 2-2 shooting, hit both FTs, grabbed a couple boards....... (ducking) and is the only Miami player in the positive at +9 as the Heat are down 69-48 at the half in DC.
Edit: Oden rewarded with the 2nd half start.
Edit: Oden rewarded with the 2nd half start.
He looked like he was 40 when he was at Ohio State, he needs some serious botox for the brow wrinkles. But with his genetics that would probably disable every muscle in his body
Russ to 'Bron: Everything you think is right is wrong.
LINK: http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/story/bill-russell-serves-lebron-james-after-mount-rushmore-comments-021814?utm_medium=referral&utm_source=pulsenews
LINK: http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/story/bill-russell-serves-lebron-james-after-mount-rushmore-comments-021814?utm_medium=referral&utm_source=pulsenews
I think Bill deserves the right to say whatever he wants, the same was MJ can take digs at the new stars whenever he wants.
Bill also played in a league pre-PEDs, and won his first and last title 12 years apart. He also coached the team his final 3 years and won 2 titles. No one in the league has more titles. The league has changed and Bill's a much different player than Lebron but thats an impressive resume. Now why he cares what one of todays huge ego, immature stars says is another story
Bill also played in a league pre-PEDs, and won his first and last title 12 years apart. He also coached the team his final 3 years and won 2 titles. No one in the league has more titles. The league has changed and Bill's a much different player than Lebron but thats an impressive resume. Now why he cares what one of todays huge ego, immature stars says is another story
Every sport has its back-in-the-day greats, but culture around the NBA seems to get confused more than most sports because so many of them are still alive.
Nobody in the NHL has more Cups than the Canadiens but they too won them in a small league with poorly-sourced talent where the delta between the best talents and the average talents was immeasurably wider than any modern sport. And, accordingly, the only people who talk about the Canadiens' wins are Canadiens fans.
Bitching about LeBron being a "huge ego" is really funny while you stroke off Russell just after his weird need to reply to something so silly and obviously media-forced. And the idea that James is "immature" is really really weird if you've ever listened to the dude talk.
Be less Brick.
Nobody in the NHL has more Cups than the Canadiens but they too won them in a small league with poorly-sourced talent where the delta between the best talents and the average talents was immeasurably wider than any modern sport. And, accordingly, the only people who talk about the Canadiens' wins are Canadiens fans.
Bitching about LeBron being a "huge ego" is really funny while you stroke off Russell just after his weird need to reply to something so silly and obviously media-forced. And the idea that James is "immature" is really really weird if you've ever listened to the dude talk.
Be less Brick.
I dont disagree that the league is different, but their resumes are about equally different.
Yes, I think Mr 'I'm taking my talents to south beach' is still immature even though he has gotten PR coaching. I think most of todays stars fall into that category, Carmelo I'll sit out in front of your bus over honey nut cherrios Anthony seems like a douche as well.
Seriously name calling, because we disagree?
Yes, I think Mr 'I'm taking my talents to south beach' is still immature even though he has gotten PR coaching. I think most of todays stars fall into that category, Carmelo I'll sit out in front of your bus over honey nut cherrios Anthony seems like a douche as well.
Seriously name calling, because we disagree?
That needs some context. Thats 62/63 when Havlicek was a rookie, Lovellette played 10 min a game, it was Ramsey's 2nd to last year, and Cousy's last year. The core of the team was kind of transitioning, its not as if all of them were in their primes as the same time.
Also, is that all that different than the 86 Celts with 4 HOFers (DJ, Larry, Kevin, Chief) in a league of 23, or 5 if you add in Bill Walton? Magic played with MacAdoo, Wilkes, Pilot Roger Murdock and Worthy. The 08 Celts had the Big 3 HOFers in a league of 30. You need elite talent to win titles, and as the quantity of teams increases the top talent pool is spread more evenly.
Also, is that all that different than the 86 Celts with 4 HOFers (DJ, Larry, Kevin, Chief) in a league of 23, or 5 if you add in Bill Walton? Magic played with MacAdoo, Wilkes, Pilot Roger Murdock and Worthy. The 08 Celts had the Big 3 HOFers in a league of 30. You need elite talent to win titles, and as the quantity of teams increases the top talent pool is spread more evenly.
I've been hard on LeBron admittedly. Not because I think he's not a great player. He is. But, because the rest of him sucks (the Decision, the post-2011 Finals press conference, quitting and pouting during games, flopping, constant whining to the refs, etc.).
That said, I wonder what people think he has to do at this point to be on the proverbial NBA Mt. Rushmore (i.e. crack the top-4), especially if they lose this series to the Spurs. Can he never get there if they lose this week? At this point, I'd argue he is behind the following players in career performance and it's a longer list than even I thought. Also, I really don't like the argument that he's 2-3 in the Finals so this is somehow a major blemish on his record. This is the same line of thinking people use to knock Brady (3-2 in SBs) versus Montana (4-0). Getting there should count for a lot (like not getting there is better?) even if you are playing in the East in the 2010s.
In no particular order:
MJ
Russell
Kobe
Shaq
Duncan
Jabbar
Magic
West
LBJ - Ahead of Bird (barely), Wilt*, Olajuwon, O. Robertson, Erving, M. Malone...
So, at this point, he's not in the top-8 of all time NBA players (based on career performance) yet it seems most fans/commentators would say he's already number 2 (Jordan, LeBron) or maybe number 3 or 4 at worst. If you think he is top-3 now, I would like to hear why you think so and the players you rank behind him. I will say if the Heat come back from this 3-1 deficit to win, LBJ may jump several spots just this week.
I know this is somewhat arbitrary and reductionist, especially to use rings, MVPs, clutch shots, leadership, competitiveness, and so on, but traditionally this is how the NBA and its players have been judged and measured. It provides good fodder for discussion boards and pub convos which is what I'm after. For clarity, I chose performance to head off the argument "there has never been a player with his athleticism and power combined." I mean that's nice but I'm looking at skills and abilities that translate into performance on the court in helping his team win. If he's top-4 at doing that then fine. I don't really want to define performance more than that because folks should feel free to interpret it how they want to make their own argument.
As an aside, my knowledge of the NBA's history is good but not great. I spend far more time watching high school and DIII basketball than I do the NBA. Contrary to my harsh criticism of LBJ in game threads, I am open to being persuaded that he has already achieved Rushmore status.
*I really struggled whether to include Wilt in the top-8 but gave the nod to LBJ based on the fact that frankly one more title and MVP and LBJ easily knocks off Wilt regardless.
That said, I wonder what people think he has to do at this point to be on the proverbial NBA Mt. Rushmore (i.e. crack the top-4), especially if they lose this series to the Spurs. Can he never get there if they lose this week? At this point, I'd argue he is behind the following players in career performance and it's a longer list than even I thought. Also, I really don't like the argument that he's 2-3 in the Finals so this is somehow a major blemish on his record. This is the same line of thinking people use to knock Brady (3-2 in SBs) versus Montana (4-0). Getting there should count for a lot (like not getting there is better?) even if you are playing in the East in the 2010s.
In no particular order:
MJ
Russell
Kobe
Shaq
Duncan
Jabbar
Magic
West
LBJ - Ahead of Bird (barely), Wilt*, Olajuwon, O. Robertson, Erving, M. Malone...
So, at this point, he's not in the top-8 of all time NBA players (based on career performance) yet it seems most fans/commentators would say he's already number 2 (Jordan, LeBron) or maybe number 3 or 4 at worst. If you think he is top-3 now, I would like to hear why you think so and the players you rank behind him. I will say if the Heat come back from this 3-1 deficit to win, LBJ may jump several spots just this week.
I know this is somewhat arbitrary and reductionist, especially to use rings, MVPs, clutch shots, leadership, competitiveness, and so on, but traditionally this is how the NBA and its players have been judged and measured. It provides good fodder for discussion boards and pub convos which is what I'm after. For clarity, I chose performance to head off the argument "there has never been a player with his athleticism and power combined." I mean that's nice but I'm looking at skills and abilities that translate into performance on the court in helping his team win. If he's top-4 at doing that then fine. I don't really want to define performance more than that because folks should feel free to interpret it how they want to make their own argument.
As an aside, my knowledge of the NBA's history is good but not great. I spend far more time watching high school and DIII basketball than I do the NBA. Contrary to my harsh criticism of LBJ in game threads, I am open to being persuaded that he has already achieved Rushmore status.
*I really struggled whether to include Wilt in the top-8 but gave the nod to LBJ based on the fact that frankly one more title and MVP and LBJ easily knocks off Wilt regardless.
riboflav said:
Because some of us realize the NBA Finals Trophies are handed out to teams for beating other teams. The best player on a team is a big reason why teams win or lose, but he's far from the only reason. His LeBron 2-3 in the finals because he has some inherent weakness compared to the other greats? Or maybe his teams (i.e., the other players he has to play with) have some inherent weakness compared to the other greats' teams?
LeBron is one of the greatest postseason performers of all-time, has 2 titles, 5 finals appearances, and a lot of deep runs, often with little help. The only years he's had help, i.e., these 4 years in Miami, he's been to the finals 4 times, won twice, and still has a 5-10% chance at winning a 3rd time. He's lost, sure, but how is it a black mark to lose to two of the greatest forwards ever (Dirk, Duncanx2)?
How many times has LeBron had a consistent #2 player? He had Wade for two years, and then the last two years, a Wade who's constantly hobbled by the times he gets to the finals? I was expecting Wade to perform A LOT better this year in the finals, give his rest and performance against the Pacers. Instead, Wade is somehow even worse than last year.
Jordan had Pippen, Kobe had Shaq, Bird had McHale, Magic had Kareem, etc. When LeBron has similar help, he wins. When he doesn't, he still gets pretty close.
As far as I can tell, LeBron has had two bad postseason series in his career. I'm pretty sure all the other greats have struggled at times too. He's also had some of the greatest performances ever in the playoffs. He's had several games and series that are up there with anything Jordan has done and far superior to anything Kobe has done. LeBron's 2009 series against Orlando was unreal and some of the best basketball I've ever seen played. He was dominant and clutch...but had zero help.
Is Chris Bosh chopped liver here? He's probably a Hall of Famer if he never dons the same jersey as LeBron, and now he almost certainly is. What about Ray Allen? He's up there in age, but he's still a quality performer that looks about 5 years younger than he is on the court. He also had 2 quality years with Battier and the corpse of Mike Miller woke up for a few huge games as well. Up until this year, where Haslem, Battier, and Chalmers have apparently fallen of cliffs, he's had a pretty awesome bench to work with.Mugthis said:
LeBron is a clear top 10 player at this point, and he has plenty of time left to move up. I just hear the "but the other greats had talent around them" argument all the time when it comes to James and I shake my head every time. LeBron has had plenty of talent to work with for the past four seasons, and that will likely continue for the rest of his career. Cleveland is a different matter...
If you think LeBron is top 3 or 4 all time you need your head examined (imo).
Right now, considering he loses this series and then if he were to somehow retire, I would put him at 12 or 13. I know that is lower than most people, but I think that unequivocally, MJ, Russell, Bird, Kareem, Magic, Oscar Robertson, Jerry West, Duncan, Kobe and Wilt have had better careers. In addition, you can easily make the case that Shaq, Moses Malone, Hakeem, and Elgin were better. I think people overate the level of competition that LeBron plays in, and they undervalue his supporting cast. LeBron has two rings, but he should really have three, maybe even four (if you count this year) at this point. His teamates during his stretch with the Heat have been pretty good. We see them now in the finals and act like the entire time Miami had LeBron, James was carrying a bunch of bums to championships. His two title victories came with a better supporting cast then Hakeem's two titles, Shaq and Kobe's threepeat, West/Baylor's pre-Wilt finals appearances, any of Duncan's championships, and honestly, some of MJ's as well.
There are a lot of counter arguments for this. You can say that LeBron is a better athlete and would whip any of the pre-merger players (true for the most part, but that doesn't necessarily mean he deserves to be ranked higher). You can say that peak LeBron was better then some of those guys (arguably true). But I think too many people discount the careers of previous players. I think LeBron is a great player, but top 10? Not yet.
Right now, considering he loses this series and then if he were to somehow retire, I would put him at 12 or 13. I know that is lower than most people, but I think that unequivocally, MJ, Russell, Bird, Kareem, Magic, Oscar Robertson, Jerry West, Duncan, Kobe and Wilt have had better careers. In addition, you can easily make the case that Shaq, Moses Malone, Hakeem, and Elgin were better. I think people overate the level of competition that LeBron plays in, and they undervalue his supporting cast. LeBron has two rings, but he should really have three, maybe even four (if you count this year) at this point. His teamates during his stretch with the Heat have been pretty good. We see them now in the finals and act like the entire time Miami had LeBron, James was carrying a bunch of bums to championships. His two title victories came with a better supporting cast then Hakeem's two titles, Shaq and Kobe's threepeat, West/Baylor's pre-Wilt finals appearances, any of Duncan's championships, and honestly, some of MJ's as well.
There are a lot of counter arguments for this. You can say that LeBron is a better athlete and would whip any of the pre-merger players (true for the most part, but that doesn't necessarily mean he deserves to be ranked higher). You can say that peak LeBron was better then some of those guys (arguably true). But I think too many people discount the careers of previous players. I think LeBron is a great player, but top 10? Not yet.
When people resort to citing a 38 year old Ray Allen, a hobbled Mike Miller, and a once good defensive role player in Battier, as evidence that Lebron James has had a good supporting cast...well.
The Miami team is poorly constructed, and only competes for championships because of Lebron. This is not a unique situation, for take Bird/Magic/Kobe/etc. off their teams, and they also struggle mightily. But, Wade and Lebron never really fit together, IMO, and Bosh has had to completely reinvent himself as a player in order to mesh.
Would be an interesting exercise to try and create the most ideal team to put around Lebron (or anyone for that matter). I'm not sure where I would start though
The Miami team is poorly constructed, and only competes for championships because of Lebron. This is not a unique situation, for take Bird/Magic/Kobe/etc. off their teams, and they also struggle mightily. But, Wade and Lebron never really fit together, IMO, and Bosh has had to completely reinvent himself as a player in order to mesh.
Would be an interesting exercise to try and create the most ideal team to put around Lebron (or anyone for that matter). I'm not sure where I would start though
Allen is still a good player, even at this age, and his biggest shot in the history of the NBA was a big contributor to Lebron's second title. So, yeah, he's been a pretty good asset. I also cited Battier and others as evidence of their depth on the bench, not as his #2. You're also leaving out Bosh and Wade, the two obvious ones, which were my main point. To say LeBron hasn't had support is ridiculous, even if Wade is a shell of himself right now. There's no problem with that, everyone needs help, and basically nobody wins an NBA title on their own. It's just an overplayed and, I believe, weak argument.swingin val said:
Rondo and Love?
swingin val said:
This is a bit rough, considering the team did make 4 straight championship. Lousy conference or not, LeBron/Wade/Bosh definitely fit together well, both defensively and offensively. The fact that Wade is calcifying in front of our eyes doesn't mean they didn't play extremely well together for the last few years. This argument reminds me of when people talk about the kobe/shaq/malone/payton "failure" of a decade ago, when the team made it through a tough western conference all the way to the finals, only to fall when Malone got injured. When the only measure of success is a championship every single year, of course nearly everyone falls short.
Euclis20 said:
Exactly. Sports fans have such short memories sometimes, that we see Wade sucking now, and having to see LeBron do everything, and think that this is always the way Miami has been. If this Miami team played San Antonio last year, they wouldn't have beaten them, and they may not have even gotten past OKC. In 2011, post-season Wade averaged 23 ppg and was still an elite athlete. Wade now has been BRUTAL on defense, but he was once maybe the best defensive guard in basketball during the Big 3's first few seasons.
Here's LeBron's teams going back to his first finals appearence and the help he got in the playoffs. Then that compared to the other all-time greats.
Playoff Win Shares, WS/48 (.100 is league average):
'14 Heat:
1. LeBron, 4.1, .270
2. Bosh, 2.0, .150
3. Wade, 1.4, .104
4. Allen, 1.1, .106
5. Anderson, 1.1, .184
'13 Heat
1. LeBron, 5.2, .260
2. Bosh, 2.2, .140
3. Anderson, 1.9, .309 (one of the highest ever)
4. Wade, 1.8, .108
5. Allen, 1.5, .129
'12 Heat
1. LeBron, 5.8, .284
2. Wade, 3.1, .165
3. Chalmers, 2.1, .122
4. Bosh, 1.7, .183
5. Battier, 1.5, .097
'11 Heat
1. LeBron, 3.8, .198
2. Wade, 3.7, .216
3. Bosh, 2.6, .149
4. Chalmers, 1.2, .111
5. Anthony, 0.9, .078
'10 Cavs (Lost EC SF to Boston)
1. LeBron, 2.3, .242
2. Mo Williams, 0.7, .080
3. Antwan Jamison, 0.7, .091
4. Anthony Parker, 0.6, .086
5. Varejao, 0.6, .105
'09 Cavs (Lost EC F to Orlando)
1. LeBron, 4.8, .399 (That .399 is the highest ever, btw)
2. Delonte West, 1.2, .101
3. Mo Williams, 1.2, .103
4. Varejao, 1.2, .139
5. Ilgauskas, 1.1, .131
'08 Cavs (Lost EC SF to Boston)
1. LeBron, 2.2, .187
2. Ilgauskas, 1.2, .145
3. Delonte West, 0.9, .097
4. Ben Wallace, 0.9, .143
5. Szczerbiak, 0.7, .085
'07 Cavs (Lost F to Spurs)
1. LeBron, 3.7, .200
2. Ilgauskas, 2.3, .173
3. Gibson, 1.8, .211
4. Gooden, 1.7, .137
5. Varejoa, 1.4, .152
'14 Spurs
1. Duncan, 3.0, .200 (Incredible for his age)
2. Leonard, 2.7, .183
3. Splitter, 2.5, .234
4. Ginobili, 2.1, .179
5. Diaw, 1.9, .162
'10 Lakers
1. Gasol, 4.3, .224
2. Kobe, 3.6, .190
3. Odem, 1.7, .125
4. Bynum, 1.7, .150
5. Fisher, 1.4, .087
'09 Lakers
1. Kobe, 4.7, .238
2. Gasol, 4.3, .221
3. Odem, 2.6, .173
4. Ariza, 2.2, .143
5. Fisher, 0.9, .068
'07 Spurs
1. Duncan, 3.3, .214
2. Ginobili, 2.6, .204
3. Parker, 1.6, .100
4. Finley, 1.6, .146
5. Oberto, 1.5, .168
'05 Spurs
1. Ginobili, 4.2, .260
2. DUncan, 3.5, .191
3. Horry, 2.6, .199
4. Mohammed, 1.7, .158
5. Barry, 1.2, .107
'03 Spurs
1. Duncan, 5.9, 2.79 (Highest ever total WS)
2. Robinson, 2.3, .204
3. Ginobili, 2.1, .152
4. Bowen, 1.6, .104
5. Jackson, 1.3, .077
'02 Lakers
1. Shaq, 3.8, .236
2. Kobe, 2.6, .148
3. Horry, 2.2, .153
4. Fox, 1.3, .099
5. Fisher, 1.3, .094
'01 Lakers
1. Kobe, 3.8, .260
2. Shaq, 3.7, .260
3. Fisher, 2.5, .207
4. Fox, 1.6, .132
5. Horry, 1.2, .150
'00 Lakers
1. Shaq, 4.7, .224
2. Kobe, 2.1, .115
3. Horry, 1.2, .096
4. Rice, 1.1, .067
5. Harper, 1.1, .080
'99 Spurs
1. Duncan, 3.7, .243
2. Robinson, 3.0, .243
3. Elliott, 1.9, .157
4. Johnson, 1.5, .111
5. Elie, 1.3, .118
'98 Bulls:
1. Jordan, 4.8, .265
2. Pippen, 2.9, .166
3. Kukoc, 2.4, .182
4. Rodman, 1.5, .097
5. Harper, 1.5, .126
'97 Bulls:
1. Jordan, 3.9, .235
2. Pippen, 2.3, .145
3. Harper, 2.0, .183
4. Kukoc, 1.3, .146
5. Kerr, 1.0, .144
'96 Bulls
1. Jordan, 4.7, .306
2. Pippen, 3.0, .195
3. Rodman, 1.9, .149
4. Harper, 1.8, .174
5. Kerr, 1.4, .184
'93 Bulls
1. Jordan, 4.4, .270
2. Grant, 2.4, .180
3. Armstrong, 1.8, .137
4. Pippen, 1.4, .083
5. Paxson, 1.1, .160
'92 Bulls
1. Jordan, 4.1, .216
2. Grant, 3.3, .184
3. Pippen, 3.1, .168
4. Paxson, 1.5, .123
5. Williams, 0.9, .128
'91 Bulls
1. Jordan, 4.8, .333
2. Pippen, 2.9, .197
3. Grant, 2.6, .189
4. Paxson, 1.5, .143
5. Cartwright, 1.2, .110
'88 Lakers
1. Magic, 4.0, .198
2. Worthy, 2.8, .148
3. Scott, 2.3, .125
4. Green, 1.8, .121
5. Thompson, 1.1, .086
'87 Lakers
1. Magic, 3.7, .265
2. Worthy, 2.7, .190
3. Kareem, 2.0, .171
4. Green, 1.9, .179
5. Cooper, 1.8, .165
'86 Celtics
1. Bird, 4.2, .263
2. McHale, 3.2, .215
3. Ainge, 2.7, .201
4. Johnson, 1.5, .102
5. Walton, 1.1, .175
'84 Celtics
1. Bird, 4.7, .236
2. McHale, 2.1, .142
3. Maxwell, 2.0, .126
4. Parish, 1.9, .105
5. Henderson, 1.9, .105
'81 Celtics
1. Bird, 3.1, .198
2. Maxwell, 2.5, .201
3. Parish, 1.4, .139
4. Archibald 1.3, .096
5. McHale, 1.1, .177
LeBron clearly has had much less help than these other players that you've placed ahead of him. He's also played better than most of them.
Playoff Win Shares, WS/48 (.100 is league average):
'14 Heat:
1. LeBron, 4.1, .270
2. Bosh, 2.0, .150
3. Wade, 1.4, .104
4. Allen, 1.1, .106
5. Anderson, 1.1, .184
'13 Heat
1. LeBron, 5.2, .260
2. Bosh, 2.2, .140
3. Anderson, 1.9, .309 (one of the highest ever)
4. Wade, 1.8, .108
5. Allen, 1.5, .129
'12 Heat
1. LeBron, 5.8, .284
2. Wade, 3.1, .165
3. Chalmers, 2.1, .122
4. Bosh, 1.7, .183
5. Battier, 1.5, .097
'11 Heat
1. LeBron, 3.8, .198
2. Wade, 3.7, .216
3. Bosh, 2.6, .149
4. Chalmers, 1.2, .111
5. Anthony, 0.9, .078
'10 Cavs (Lost EC SF to Boston)
1. LeBron, 2.3, .242
2. Mo Williams, 0.7, .080
3. Antwan Jamison, 0.7, .091
4. Anthony Parker, 0.6, .086
5. Varejao, 0.6, .105
'09 Cavs (Lost EC F to Orlando)
1. LeBron, 4.8, .399 (That .399 is the highest ever, btw)
2. Delonte West, 1.2, .101
3. Mo Williams, 1.2, .103
4. Varejao, 1.2, .139
5. Ilgauskas, 1.1, .131
'08 Cavs (Lost EC SF to Boston)
1. LeBron, 2.2, .187
2. Ilgauskas, 1.2, .145
3. Delonte West, 0.9, .097
4. Ben Wallace, 0.9, .143
5. Szczerbiak, 0.7, .085
'07 Cavs (Lost F to Spurs)
1. LeBron, 3.7, .200
2. Ilgauskas, 2.3, .173
3. Gibson, 1.8, .211
4. Gooden, 1.7, .137
5. Varejoa, 1.4, .152
'14 Spurs
1. Duncan, 3.0, .200 (Incredible for his age)
2. Leonard, 2.7, .183
3. Splitter, 2.5, .234
4. Ginobili, 2.1, .179
5. Diaw, 1.9, .162
'10 Lakers
1. Gasol, 4.3, .224
2. Kobe, 3.6, .190
3. Odem, 1.7, .125
4. Bynum, 1.7, .150
5. Fisher, 1.4, .087
'09 Lakers
1. Kobe, 4.7, .238
2. Gasol, 4.3, .221
3. Odem, 2.6, .173
4. Ariza, 2.2, .143
5. Fisher, 0.9, .068
'07 Spurs
1. Duncan, 3.3, .214
2. Ginobili, 2.6, .204
3. Parker, 1.6, .100
4. Finley, 1.6, .146
5. Oberto, 1.5, .168
'05 Spurs
1. Ginobili, 4.2, .260
2. DUncan, 3.5, .191
3. Horry, 2.6, .199
4. Mohammed, 1.7, .158
5. Barry, 1.2, .107
'03 Spurs
1. Duncan, 5.9, 2.79 (Highest ever total WS)
2. Robinson, 2.3, .204
3. Ginobili, 2.1, .152
4. Bowen, 1.6, .104
5. Jackson, 1.3, .077
'02 Lakers
1. Shaq, 3.8, .236
2. Kobe, 2.6, .148
3. Horry, 2.2, .153
4. Fox, 1.3, .099
5. Fisher, 1.3, .094
'01 Lakers
1. Kobe, 3.8, .260
2. Shaq, 3.7, .260
3. Fisher, 2.5, .207
4. Fox, 1.6, .132
5. Horry, 1.2, .150
'00 Lakers
1. Shaq, 4.7, .224
2. Kobe, 2.1, .115
3. Horry, 1.2, .096
4. Rice, 1.1, .067
5. Harper, 1.1, .080
'99 Spurs
1. Duncan, 3.7, .243
2. Robinson, 3.0, .243
3. Elliott, 1.9, .157
4. Johnson, 1.5, .111
5. Elie, 1.3, .118
'98 Bulls:
1. Jordan, 4.8, .265
2. Pippen, 2.9, .166
3. Kukoc, 2.4, .182
4. Rodman, 1.5, .097
5. Harper, 1.5, .126
'97 Bulls:
1. Jordan, 3.9, .235
2. Pippen, 2.3, .145
3. Harper, 2.0, .183
4. Kukoc, 1.3, .146
5. Kerr, 1.0, .144
'96 Bulls
1. Jordan, 4.7, .306
2. Pippen, 3.0, .195
3. Rodman, 1.9, .149
4. Harper, 1.8, .174
5. Kerr, 1.4, .184
'93 Bulls
1. Jordan, 4.4, .270
2. Grant, 2.4, .180
3. Armstrong, 1.8, .137
4. Pippen, 1.4, .083
5. Paxson, 1.1, .160
'92 Bulls
1. Jordan, 4.1, .216
2. Grant, 3.3, .184
3. Pippen, 3.1, .168
4. Paxson, 1.5, .123
5. Williams, 0.9, .128
'91 Bulls
1. Jordan, 4.8, .333
2. Pippen, 2.9, .197
3. Grant, 2.6, .189
4. Paxson, 1.5, .143
5. Cartwright, 1.2, .110
'88 Lakers
1. Magic, 4.0, .198
2. Worthy, 2.8, .148
3. Scott, 2.3, .125
4. Green, 1.8, .121
5. Thompson, 1.1, .086
'87 Lakers
1. Magic, 3.7, .265
2. Worthy, 2.7, .190
3. Kareem, 2.0, .171
4. Green, 1.9, .179
5. Cooper, 1.8, .165
'86 Celtics
1. Bird, 4.2, .263
2. McHale, 3.2, .215
3. Ainge, 2.7, .201
4. Johnson, 1.5, .102
5. Walton, 1.1, .175
'84 Celtics
1. Bird, 4.7, .236
2. McHale, 2.1, .142
3. Maxwell, 2.0, .126
4. Parish, 1.9, .105
5. Henderson, 1.9, .105
'81 Celtics
1. Bird, 3.1, .198
2. Maxwell, 2.5, .201
3. Parish, 1.4, .139
4. Archibald 1.3, .096
5. McHale, 1.1, .177
LeBron clearly has had much less help than these other players that you've placed ahead of him. He's also played better than most of them.
You know what? Lebron behaved as a GM and chose his teammates, so he might as well get shit for the weaknesses of the team he plays with. And that's getting to the core of the problem I have with Lebron and the Heat. For me, it's not the vulgar garishness of the decision. One can get over this and in any case, it's not as if lebron behaved like an asshole after that. I believe he's a good kid and obviously a tremendous basketball player, one that legitimately can compare to Michael Jordan as the best of all time.
However, when he decided to come in cahoots with Wade and Bosh to join the same team in order to form a basketball dynasty, they went against of what I think is the implicit understanding of how this league is supposed to work. That implicit understanding says that individual players choose their teams either through luck of the draw in the lottery process in the beginning of their careers and after that based on financial incentives and other intangibles like working environment, city, chance of winning.
OTOH, teams are supposed to rack their brains to make the best choices to build a team that can compete for the championship through drafting, trades, free agency buys and last by not least, by establishing a workplace culture that maximizes the efficiency and output of players. This is one of the main reasons that we, as fans, obsess over all kinds of minutia that can make our team better. And that's why we can appreciate the smarts of a Danny Ainge who can pull a trade that brought KG and Ray Allen to Boston after the ping pong balls didn't go our way after years and years of all kinds of maneuvering that tried to improve our team. This is what makes us appreciate our team's success more. The same with Spurs fans today. Yes, they drafted Tim Duncan, but they also had a ton of successful draft picks, smart trades and free agent signings while also building a fantastic workplace culture that made players both happy to play for them and a better sum of their parts.
Heat fans don't feel this way or at least they shouldn't. The Miami Heat success wasn't so much the outcome of smart team management, but the opposite. The MIami Heat were the vessel for the fulfillment of Lebron's, Wade's and Bosh's ambition to win championship. Perhaps, it would be far more honest if the Miami Heat were renamed to Lebron's Homies or Lebron's Posse. Because that's what it is.
The Heat's success is more akin to a guy who bought a trophy wife through a loaded bank account and the possession of an Aston Martin convertible, rather than the long love story of two people who met, liked each other, but had some personal issues to work out, fell in love and then through hard work and perseverance managed to build a happy life together.
The thing is, things that are bought have less meaning than things you earn the hard way.
I follow sports and I choose teams because I appreciate the latter path, I don't like the Heat, because of the former. That's my issue with them. That's why I don't like teams like Real, or Chelsea or PSG, or the NYY who just splash money to buy a championship. That's why I can appreciate a Barcelona when the core of her team is built from players who came up from her academies, or Liverpool who made smart moves with less money or Atletico who competed with the giants with less money through tenacity and hard work.
The road Lebron chose is going hurt him in another way. Most of the greats he's compared to are associated with one team and one city. Jordan with Chicago, Bird and Russell with the Celtics, Kobe with LA, Duncan with the Spurs. There are even guys like KG, who got traded after they got frustrated with their first team, have built an emotional bond with their next city. Has Lebron such an emotional bond with Miami? Is there anyone in Miami who cares as much as places like Boston, Phily, New York do in the first place?
And while there are others who switched teams after they pouted like Shaq, none of them is hated by the fans of their first team as much as Lebron is. But that's the way it goes. When you put your brand and your ability to win championships first, that bound to hurt your image and legacy. Imagine now what's going to happen if Lebron opts out of his contract and chooses to sign in another city with a better roster. Sure, fans in that city will be happy. But deep down, isn't it going to feel a bit like a night stand where each side uses the other person as disposable vehicle?
To me the real villain of the Miami Heat these last few years is not Lebron, it is Wade. The constant whining, the WWE style takedown of Rondo in the playoffs a few years back. He's my most hated athlete in all of pro sports.
I hope Lebron jets and leaves Wade with a broken down husk of a team, stuck in that middle ground of early playoff exits or early teen draft picks. Miami's offseason will be fascinating to watch, for sure.
I hope Lebron jets and leaves Wade with a broken down husk of a team, stuck in that middle ground of early playoff exits or early teen draft picks. Miami's offseason will be fascinating to watch, for sure.
Buster Olney the Lonely said:
It could be just as fun seeing them pick up an inefficient scorer in Carmelo, who doesn't fit on the team as constructed, at the expense of depth. Consolation would be him replacing Lebron and watching their decline accelerate quite a bit.