Stop hoarding TP(E) - the what should the Celtics do with the TPE thread
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Basically getting Barnes makes sense because his deal expires at the same time as Kemba’s and then they could go after a genuine star to pair with J and J.
Yeah the Amick piece lays out a decent argument for Barnes, which is.... he's pretty good, his salary goes down, he expires right when Kemba does, and it could be a loaded FA class. Offset by... ownership needs to be willing to pay a lot of tax over time.
That seems too clever by half but then again, I am not running an NBA team. Is this an Amick trade idea or did the article report that the teams are actually in talks?
Also, to manage expectations, if the C's acquire him, Barnes will drive some folks here crazy. He is a good player but his pedigree and athleticism feel like he should be better. Its unfair but he is hardly the first athlete to deal with that dynamic. In my experience, those types seem to fall out of favor quickly in markets like Boston but if a trade comes to pass, maybe this proves the exception.
Also, to manage expectations, if the C's acquire him, Barnes will drive some folks here crazy. He is a good player but his pedigree and athleticism feel like he should be better. Its unfair but he is hardly the first athlete to deal with that dynamic. In my experience, those types seem to fall out of favor quickly in markets like Boston but if a trade comes to pass, maybe this proves the exception.
It's been widely speculated. I know for people with decent Celtics sources, Scalabrine and Kevin O'Connor have mentioned it.
It makes some sense in that, if you aren't going to reset the tax this year, Barnes gives you many of the same options as the TPE and you aren't on a short clock, plus, he's a pretty good player.
Prepping myself for Jeff Green v02 based on your description
Simmons has also been pushing Barnes hard. He doesn't source it, but it wouldnt shock me if someone leaked it to him to try and pump up C's fans thoughts on Barnes if we do land him.
I think you could still reset this year, if you sent out Thompson+ and brought back Whiteside to fill the big body, third center role.
Green is also a good NBA player but you are in the right zipcode IMO. Barnes is the type of player who can flash elite moves a few times a game but his limitations make it unsustainable over long periods of time. If the C's go this route, my sense is that we should scale back the ceiling for this team a bit. Again, Barnes is a decent player but he is being acquired as another step in team building rather than a move to contend.Prepping myself for Jeff Green v02 based on your description
Simmons has also been pushing Barnes hard. He doesn't source it, but it wouldnt shock me if someone leaked it to him to try and pump up C's fans thoughts on Barnes if we do land him.
Finally, Bill Simmons is very smart and a visionary. However his NBA takes are widely considered to be stale at best. He does have access and a lot of resources at his disposal so its possible he knows something. However he has also been terribly wrong in not just his analysis but also some of his supposed insider information as well (e.g. Durant to the Knicks).
This is my choice if Vuc is off the table. I get the need for another scoring wing but Horford in the pick and pop with Kemba and the Jays would be so lethal.
I think that Theis will end up with a 2 year deal between the $5M he's making and the $9.7M MLE. I'd expect TL to get the next iteration of the Bradley / Smart contract for 4 years slightly above the MLE, depending on when he signs and how he evolves between now and that point.
I'll be surprised if together they average more than Vucevic's current figure.
There is almost zero chance of acquiring a significant RFA as a sign and trade this summer, because that would hard cap them again. No realistic way to stay under with Tatums new deal hitting the books.
If you're targeting an upcoming RFA, gotta get him before the trade deadline.
This is exactly what I think a Barnes deal would look like, as far as salaries. Barnes+Whiteside for Thompson and 1.6Mish back from Boston puts them under the tax.
Whether it's a dead salary in Teague going back plus extra draft compensation, or one of the young prospects and less draft compensation.
Sacramento could probably spin TT elsewhere for minimal draft compensation as well.
Could also do TT+filler for Horford and get under the tax I think. It’s a bit harder but doable.
The concept of turning the TPE into a moderately productive player if no one is available, to extend the clock on that salary slot, makes general sense to me.
Barnes also fills a need on the current roster while setting up the offseason well. Goodbye to most of the Semi, Grant, and Two-big minutes.
I’ve been a proponent of getting him here on the cheap as my #1 “realistic” target for awhile now. He’s a nice versatile role playing piece who can create and take advantage of matchups when presented.
Thanks for that, keep forgetting the hard cap. Maybe you're right, Barnes is the TPE extender?
was Wyc just full of BS saying the TPE is this summer's business?
I'm coming around to Barnes, an experienced wing is vital.
What other teams are bidding for his services, have the players or space to move for him?
Could the C's save their 28.5MM TPE by sending out:
1st round pick + Langford + Grant + TT + Edwards + Teague + Green ($20.04) for Barnes ($22.22)
+ Holmes ($5.05) use the EK TPE
Still want Danny to figure out how to get Delon Wright.
Holmes makes too much to fit in the Kanter TPE. And Sacramento would have to waive three guys to make this happen even if he fit.
It's tough to do unbalanced trades in season because of the roster spots.
I wouldn't think acquiring Barnes and keeping a huge TPE is realistic anyway. They wouldn't be looking to add another 20M+ salary on top of Tatum/Brown/Kemba/Barnes/Smart. That's just too rich.
If they just did Barnes/Whiteside for TT/anybody, they'd generate a TPE for Thompson that would allow them to snag another MLE level player in trade over the summer.
TT would be a great addition for the Nets (unless they are just waiting for the Drummond buyout)
Sac could probably get Dinwiddie (opting-out) + 2nds for TT
This is where I was thinking too, and would slightly lower their tax bill as well.
There is chatter about an Otto Porter buy out. Would we prefer him on a minimum contract to sending assets and using the TPE for Barnes?
Given that Boston would need to include Theis one of Langford/Nesmith and one of the minimum guys (read Edwards) to make the money work, I'm not opposed to making the deal for Horford and OKC's #1 pick with top 4 protection.
He's been mostly injured, but I'd certainly be in favor of a Porter flyer if the Barnes acquisition cost is too high.
They would clearly be relying on moving Walker into someone's cap space to make a sign & trade work. If Walker continues his improvement it's probably doable.
Honestly I might rather that Boston made that deal directly. Dinwiddie might be a good candidate as the long range 1 if they managed to move off Kemba next summer.
If this dream scenario happened, there would be no need to save the Hayward TPE, because you'd have a new Kemba TPE, or his matching salary in a 3 way deal.
Part of the downside of Wyc speaking on the matter is the CBA gurus and others trying to parse his words, myself included.
Celtics want to reset. They plan to reset. They also want to add talent. So there's no reason to think that a deal (or combination of deals) that brings in a Vuc or a Barnes but maintains reset capabilities would be off limits.
I think that Vuc is a better player, but I get the Barnes desire. Wings > bigs. Costs would be different. Hate to go talk radio caller, but it would be nice if Danny could improve the team at the deadline.
Well, the goal would be to use the Hayward TPE first, thus reserving the larger TPE to add talent at the deadline. With the Hayward TPE the goal is probably either an RFA that hasn't worked out yet or a second contract guy that hasn't lived up to expectations.
I agree on Vuc, I just don't think Danny has the assets to get him. Your are either sellings wins or selling hope, right? Sac may have though they were selling wins under Vlade, but the new regime seems to recognize the currency of choice is hope. They have their face of the franchise in Fox and another exciting piece in Halliburton. They need a wing on the same timeline as those two. They didn't draft Barnes and did not give up any real assets to acquire him. Flipping him for some future firsts and/or the Celtics our unproven wings makes sense and is an easy sell to the fans.
I have no idea what Orlando is selling and it does not seem like they know. What is clear, is that the Magic's offense is a tire fire without Vuc. They have little in promising young guys to market. Isaac is still out with the ACL, and is a limited offensive player even when healthy. Aaron Gordon has not developed as they hoped. Bamba looks like a bust. Cole Anthony?
In contrast, Vuc is their home grown two time All Star (I know he was drafted by the 76ers but he became the player he is today in Orlando). He's under contract for two more years after this one, and there has not been any reporting that he has asked out. I am not saying they would hang up the phone on Danny, but Vuc's importance to Orlando as a franchise is going to raise the asking price. If Orlando is going to trade him, they need to sell hope. A passel of 1st rounds picks that project to be in the 20's isn't hope. They would want a promising young player (preferably with a high draft pedigree) and some picks that have a reasonable chance of being in the lottery. Charlotte could make that kind of deal. The Celtics can't. It must be bleak to be a Magic fan.
But if that's the goal, why wouldn't they do it now rather than the summer?
Say the target is John Collins if you traded for him now instead of waiting for the summer, besides the obvious benefit of having him help this year, they'd also have more than 24M of the Hayward TPE left over to use elsewhere since Collins salary is currently at 4.1M, you wouldn't have to sweat out Collins picking you over every other option this summer since you'd now have his RFA matching rights, and you don't have to hope you can find someone to take Kemba off your hands and take back no salary.
I think the eye of the needle the Celtics would be trying to thread here is considerably larger right now than in the summer.
The Magic have been a brutally managed team over the years. As the league became wing oriented the Magic went all in on drafting/trading/signing centers and power forwards. To the extent that they can't find developmental playing time for them all. And so they're loaded with stunted 4/5s with limited/no trade value.
The thing is that Boston just doesn't have the chips to land Collins now (and probably not this summer as someone is going to max him). You're looking at guys like Lonzo Ball that just haven't lived up to expectations to date and whose teams are really ambivalent about re-signing them that likely don't have a team eagerly awaiting to give them a max deal. The other possibility, which I've said from the start is the more likely one, is taking on a contract that another team wants to move off of in order to make an offer to another player.
Remember when ORL had the best young talent in the league? That wasn't that long ago.
HRB refers to this part of the calendar as "silly season" for a reason. Wyc may well be spot on about the Celtics being more inclined to wait until the offseason to use the TPE. Furthermore, teams may not be inclined to trade players as readily this season because of the play-in games. Or perhaps they have other considerations or are just poorly run. My sense is that at least some of the chatter, articles and Tweets we've cited here is a function of teams trying to talk their books and I would view them via that lens.
On the one hand, its kind of hard not to take the downplaying of moves at face value given the context of the entire season etc (pandemic, the dominance of the LA teams, the Nets rise) but, on the other, the fact that we don't have lot of news could also mean that teams are quietly working on deals.
I will say this - I don't care about the Celtics finances as long as they aren't constrained internally in terms of resources they can commit to winning. Given how quickly teams can fall apart due to injuries, contracts or chemistry, my preference is to see them take a swing sooner rather than later (I suspect that has come across in my posts).
Finally, how the C's come through the deadline may tell us about how close they think the team is to actually contending. If they think they are close, you would expect a larger deal now if its doable. On the other hand, if they are trying to save their assets (picks, players, exceptions) for later, that tells me they don't think they are that close or they have indications that they may be able to get a better player after the season is over.
On the one hand, its kind of hard not to take the downplaying of moves at face value given the context of the entire season etc (pandemic, the dominance of the LA teams, the Nets rise) but, on the other, the fact that we don't have lot of news could also mean that teams are quietly working on deals.
I will say this - I don't care about the Celtics finances as long as they aren't constrained internally in terms of resources they can commit to winning. Given how quickly teams can fall apart due to injuries, contracts or chemistry, my preference is to see them take a swing sooner rather than later (I suspect that has come across in my posts).
Finally, how the C's come through the deadline may tell us about how close they think the team is to actually contending. If they think they are close, you would expect a larger deal now if its doable. On the other hand, if they are trying to save their assets (picks, players, exceptions) for later, that tells me they don't think they are that close or they have indications that they may be able to get a better player after the season is over.
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If Atlanta is expecting Collins to get an offer this offseason that they are not prepared to match, aren't they incentivized to get something for him at the deadline instead of losing him for nothing? I think there was an article on The Athletic recently speculating that a couple firsts, a second, Pritchard, and Edwards might be enough.
Edit: Instead of being lazy, I should link the article.
https://theathletic.com/2410337/2021/02/25/john-collins-trade-celtics-deal-with-hawks-possible-for-right-price/?article_source=search&search_query=john collins celtics
Or maybe, after the Nets / Kings / Grizzlies picks have been utilized, they don’t have the assets to close a larger deal. As a point of discussion, would anyone be willing to spin off all three of Thompson, Theis, and Walker for whatever assets they fetch and spend the rest of this season going young?
The way he said it technically leaves open the possibility that for the specific opportunity of playing basketball professionally he will still be in San Antonio.
View: https://twitter.com/wojespn/status/1369805843257044993
Spurs are working on trade scenarios with LaMarcus Aldridge and have been engaged on several fronts, sources tell ESPN.
There's a level of confidence that a trade partner will be found for Aldridge -- perhaps even in the next week -- and no movement toward a contract buyout, sources tell ESPN.
Spurs are working on trade scenarios with LaMarcus Aldridge and have been engaged on several fronts, sources tell ESPN.
There's a level of confidence that a trade partner will be found for Aldridge -- perhaps even in the next week -- and no movement toward a contract buyout, sources tell ESPN.
Hell no.
I don't understand the folks that are framing the Celtics as in some kind of rebuilding/asset gathering phase.
Even while being painfully thin at the wings, having Kemba and Smart missing big chunks of time, not having Romeo at all yet, they're still sitting 4th in the East.
And while they have two healthy all stars, an easier path than most contenders to improving at the deadline since they have the massive TPE and all their 1st round picks available to be traded, there seems to be a lot of thought to just punting this season and maybe wait til next year? Or, even wait til the year after that by using the TPE to take on someone elses unwanted contract to build more assets?
I just don't get it.
Amen. This team has two young all-star wings under team control for the immediate future, Smart, and a one legged guard doing a reasonable facsimile of peak two legged Kemba Walker. They just came off the ECF too.
In some ways, the Celtics are fortunate because had they not had health issues to start the season, the fanbase might be getting antsy for a big move right now.
They simply cannot afford to wait much longer. You do not want Tatum or Brown getting frustrated with the lack of support - that would be really damaging imo.
I do think they should be maximizing everything possible to keep Jaylen & Jayson happy so they don’t leave, but Barnes or anyone isn’t getting them even close to beating the Nets so I’m not sure going into the tax for no chance at the finals is really worth it this year.
Sigh
They don't have to go into the tax.
And I don't think anyone is suggesting they go all in for a rental.
I mean, the example you gave in Barnes is signed for two years after this one.
I’ve always called him a rich mans Jeff Green. It’s all to do with people expectations. Barnes has pretty much established his niche in this league so I don’t know why anyone would think he’s anything more than what he’s shown.
I’ll never forget his presser after a game at UNC sitting next to Roy Williams. He said something to the effect of “building his brand” which almost caused poor Roy’s head to explode right there at the table.
Barnes was the 4th leading scorer on the 2015-16 Warriors (74-9) and that's pretty much the role he'd play for these Celtics. Plus he's a better player now. The Celts adding an experienced, decent wing has many positive knock-on effects. While he isn't my 1st choice (or 2nd, 3rd, etc), he gives the Celtics a shot at a Championship with any kind of health luck.
I agree on his role but he’s my guy due to him being available on the cheap as a salary dump while having a contract that aligns well with our long term goals. People talk too much about “bad contracts” but it’s these contracts that position us to make larger deals. There is value in creating a salary spot for the purpose of making future moves and when the player can actually contribute like Barnes you are creating something out of nothing.
Exactly. Let’s not forget that “bad contract” is less about money and how much you pay or get when you trade the contract.
In the Jeff Green case, he got the Celtics 2 decent firsts—the most positive non Pierce/KG return we’ve had from any vet trade in the recent past.
Barnes is extremely likely to fetch at least a small asset when he’s eventually moved (in the scenario where the Celtics acquire him).
I would also add that Durant has been out for a month and now is getting more imaging done on his hamstring. There is a real potential problem there for him. The Celtics, with a healthy Smart and a wing upgrade, could be in position to provide a stiff challenge to the Nets if their big 3 isn’t fully healthy.