Red Sox Deadline Discussion

[Snodgrass'Muff]

You know, sitting on this for a few minutes, it dawned on me that in an article I read somewhere it was mentioned that the reason Theo has focused on developing so many hitters with the Cubs is that pitching is so volatile that he'd rather build his rotation through the free agent market as necessary while putting together a dynamite lineup with prospects. I wonder if part of that is also that offense is waning across the league and assembling a playoff caliber rotation might actually be easier than putting together a top of the league lineup?
 
If Ben is thinking similarly, focusing on loading the lineup by making a run at Stanton and adding more hitters to the farm, even at the expense of the rotation does make sense. Especially if you are converting your older pitchers into those prospects (both the one's you hope to promote to the 25 man eventually and those you'll use as trade chips). I'm still iffy on the idea of going into the winter without an ace, but an all in approach to getting the lineup set for the foreseeable future is defensible.

 

[OttoC]

Regardless of how many players are dealt for how many prospects is there any doubt that Ben and Co. are going to make a serious, serious run at Stanton this offseason, armed with a large amount of prospects? 
 
So at least that's kind of exciting.
 
The idea of a Stanton-Ortiz-Napoli middle of the order next year would blow me away.

 
Stanton missed 39 games in 2012 and 46 games in 2013 because of injuries.Do you take that into consideration before offering the farm for him?

 

[StuckOnYouk]

 
Stanton missed 39 games in 2012 and 46 games in 2013 because of injuries.Do you take that into consideration before offering the farm for him?

 
Nope.
And again, you're not offering THE farm. You're offering a part of the farm. The Sox have enough top prospects and will accumulate more likely in the next 3 days to have some left. They won't be completely barren.
 
In 2011 he played 150 games and this year he's already played 104. I don't see him as someone who will only be playing 120 games per year for his entire career.

 

[mabrowndog]

If I have to guess you'll probably hear Badenhop traded in the next 24 hours. No inside info but it seems logical that the small pieces go before Miller and Lester. Carp Nava are both options too. But if I had to guess Badenhop gets dealt tomorrow probably back to Milwaukee or to Cleveland.

 
This is about the 749th time I've seen Nava's name floated in the various trade threads.
 
Everyone wants to focus on his underwhelming overall line this season (.258/.341/.330/.671) without taking into account how (a) he was grossly overused early in the year due to a lack of OF depth, (b) since early June he has absolutely smoked with the bat (.342/.418/.393/.811), and ( c) even with all his April & May struggles he's still mashed RHP at a .295/.383/.378/.762 season-long rate. For June & July, his splits vs RHP are a ridiculous .365/.442/.413/.855.
 
Oh, and he's barely making more than the MLB minimum this year. He's arb-eligible for the first time this winter, meaning that for the next two seasons that sort of production will still be ridiculously cheap. They've got him under club control for three more seasons.
 
So please, can we all stop talking about Nava like he should be discarded in a deadline deal along with the expiring contract trash?

 

[edoug]

Dodgers interested in Lackey
 
https://twitter.com/Ken_Rosenthal/status/493969730135261185

 

[StuckOnYouk]

Lackey and Beckett reunion?

 

[Hee Sox Choi]

Lackey and Beckett reunion?

 

[benhogan]

 
This is about the 749th time I've seen Nava's name floated in the various trade threads.
 
Everyone wants to focus on his underwhelming overall line this season (.258/.341/.330/.671) without taking into account how (a) he was grossly overused early in the year due to a lack of OF depth, (b) since early June he has absolutely smoked with the bat (.342/.418/.393/.811), and ( c) even with all his April & May struggles he's still mashed RHP at a .295/.383/.378/.762 season-long rate. For June & July, his splits vs RHP are a ridiculous .365/.442/.413/.855.
 
Oh, and he's barely making more than the MLB minimum this year. He's arb-eligible for the first time this winter, meaning that for the next two seasons that sort of production will still be ridiculously cheap. They've got him under club control for three more seasons.
 
So please, can we all stop talking about Nava like he should be discarded in a deadline deal along with the expiring contract trash?

Amen.  
 
I'll go one step further and add that I'd be content with a combo of Nava and a RH bat platoon in LF next year (as long as Farrell uses the platoon properly) and have him back up 1st base (no need for Carp).

 

[nattysez]

Gordo:

 

A major league source with knowledge of Boston’s discussions said Monday night it is still “less than 50-50” that the Red Sox trade Lester, based on discussions to date. The same holds true, the source said, for lefty reliever Andrew Miller, although he expects that the offers for both pitchers will be sweetened as Thursday's trade deadline draws closer. 

The Red Sox are now actively engaged in determining what kind of return they could get in a Lester deal. They have had discussions with the Los Angeles Dodgers, they have been in contact with the St. Louis Cardinals and Seattle Mariners, and there was a report that they fielded an inquiry from the Baltimore Orioles, though it’s highly unlikely they’d move Lester within the division.  There were mixed signals Monday on whether outfielder Matt Kemp could be part of a deal with the Dodgers.
 

 

Talks with the Dodgers, according to sources, have not advanced to the point of swapping names. The Dodgers, who are coming off a sweep of the Giants, are telling at least some inquisitors they plan to keep Kemp, though one source insisted Monday his name remains in play. 

The Dodgers so far have indicated they would not part with top prospects Joc Pederson and Corey Seager, but their resistance to doing so, measured against not having gone to the World Series since 1988, might lessen by Thursday’s deadline. One source indicated the Dodgers could be in on Miller as well. 
 

 

There was a report Monday night that the Red Sox would be willing to trade John Lackey. Teams have made inquiries, including the Kansas City Royals, according to one source, but with Lackey due to make the major league minimum next season, the Sox are more inclined to keep him.
 

 

 

[StuckOnYouk]

Thursday's gonna be crazy. I suppose Wednesday if a team gets serious enough to the point where the Sox pull him from his start.

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

 
This is about the 749th time I've seen Nava's name floated in the various trade threads.
 
Everyone wants to focus on his underwhelming overall line this season (.258/.341/.330/.671) without taking into account how (a) he was grossly overused early in the year due to a lack of OF depth, (b) since early June he has absolutely smoked with the bat (.342/.418/.393/.811), and ( c) even with all his April & May struggles he's still mashed RHP at a .295/.383/.378/.762 season-long rate. For June & July, his splits vs RHP are a ridiculous .365/.442/.413/.855.
 
Oh, and he's barely making more than the MLB minimum this year. He's arb-eligible for the first time this winter, meaning that for the next two seasons that sort of production will still be ridiculously cheap. They've got him under club control for three more seasons.
 
So please, can we all stop talking about Nava like he should be discarded in a deadline deal along with the expiring contract trash?

So in your eyes he is untradeable? I don't understand. You're talking about a league average outfielder that will be 32 in spring training. It depends what direction they want to take the team. If they're going with a youth movement then it's better served giving his at bats to Hassan/Brentz/other prospect. Nava's years of cost control is what gives him some value. If you could actually get a C+ B- prospect for him then you make the deal.

On the other side of the coin you have people on here that if faced with the prospect of getting Stanton feels the Sox should hold off because they have Nava.

 

[dcmissle]

I'm inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt. They did this same principle in 2012, dumping Gonzalez and finding that production cheaper in Napoli. It is a bit risky, but this front office wins a lot more than they lose. A week ago you called them out for not having the stones to sell, and now that it appears they do, the sky is still falling. Not sure how they win with you.

I think the situation in 2012 was different in some important ways.

And when I "called them out" it was with regard to Lester and whether they would have the guts to deal him. We were not talking about parting with Lackey too.

In any case, it's only Tuesday in what is looking like a long week.

 

[OzSox]

 
This is about the 749th time I've seen Nava's name floated in the various trade threads.
 
Everyone wants to focus on his underwhelming overall line this season (.258/.341/.330/.671) without taking into account how (a) he was grossly overused early in the year due to a lack of OF depth, (b) since early June he has absolutely smoked with the bat (.342/.418/.393/.811), and ( c) even with all his April & May struggles he's still mashed RHP at a .295/.383/.378/.762 season-long rate. For June & July, his splits vs RHP are a ridiculous .365/.442/.413/.855.

 
I know offense is down in the last few years but I think you're being a bit too kind to Nava with your choices of verbs/adjectives in describing these slash lines. The OBP is good but overall I don't think these lines are as impressive as you're making them out to be.

 

[jimbobim]

So in your eyes he is untradeable? I don't understand. You're talking about a league average outfielder that will be 32 in spring training. It depends what direction they want to take the team. If they're going with a youth movement then it's better served giving his at bats to Hassan/Brentz/other prospect. Nava's years of cost control is what gives him some value. If you could actually get a C+ B- prospect for him then you make the deal.

On the other side of the coin you have people on here that if faced with the prospect of getting Stanton feels the Sox should hold off because they have Nava.

 
Amen
 
 
 

Amen.  
 
I'll go one step further and add that I'd be content with a combo of Nava and a RH bat platoon in LF next year (as long as Farrell uses the platoon properly) and have him back up 1st base (no need for Carp).

 
If JBJ plays center Vic is in right for most of the games and Nava platoon is in left the only position to substantially upgrade is SS/3b and X will be in one of those positions . Nava is good at what he does but his RHH counterpart is vital and sure it could be Mookie but I'd think you'd want to give him more time. 
 
Nava is a nice left handed bat who crushes RHP. I'm sure given his control he could fetch a decent prospect with a little more of a ceiling. 

 

[BoSoxLady]

They 100 percent have thought of selling.

Source? The ownership group is perfectly happy running one of MLB's premier franchises. They have three rings to show for their investment. John Henry owns the Boston Globe and from what I've heard directly from a couple of his employees, he's around the building a ton and is attempting to learn every aspect of the business. Doesn't sound to me like someone who wants to cash out of the Red Sox.

 

[Corsi]

edit: woops, looks like it was already posted

 

[MakMan44]

 
I know offense is down in the last few years but I think you're being a bit too kind to Nava with your choices of verbs/adjectives in describing these slash lines. The OBP is good but overall I don't think these lines are as impressive as you're making them out to be.

Have you looked at ML slash lines lately? Offense all over baseball is down. An .800 OPS is really good. 
 
EDIT: Quick and dirty, MLB league OPS is .705. AL is .714.

 

[glennhoffmania]

Dodgers interested in Lackey
 
https://twitter.com/Ken_Rosenthal/status/493969730135261185

 
Am I the only one who just sees a link instead of the actual text of the tweet?  It's pretty annoying.

 

[smastroyin]

If you are using tapatalk, the twitter thing doesn't work.  Sorry.

 

[bibajesus]

Your not alone. Twitter links are all I get on the SoSH app. It is annoying but I assume there is some reason behind it.

 

[MakMan44]

Sure, but a guy who has a .378 slugging against RHP isn't exactly "mashing" them. AL corner outfielders have an aggregate line of 262 / 326 / 407. Nava is at 258 / 339 / 328. He's getting on base at a good clip, but hitting for zero power, and doesn't bring much defensively or on the basepaths. I can certainly imagine them trading him as part of a bigger deal as it's pretty unclear what role Nava has in the organization going forward.

52 AL OF'ers have 200+ PA. JBJ ranks 50th in SLG (ahead of only Craig Gentry and Raul Ibanez). Sizemore is 46th, Nava is 45th, Gomes is 40th. Pretty sad.

Good points on the SLG. I only pointed out the OPS because that was what was bolded. 

 

[wade boggs chicken dinner]

You know, sitting on this for a few minutes, it dawned on me that in an article I read somewhere it was mentioned that the reason Theo has focused on developing so many hitters with the Cubs is that pitching is so volatile that he'd rather build his rotation through the free agent market as necessary while putting together a dynamite lineup with prospects. I wonder if part of that is also that offense is waning across the league and assembling a playoff caliber rotation might actually be easier than putting together a top of the league lineup?

 
I wonder how that makes sense.  I agree that pitching is more volatile - that means Theo could assemble a good hitting club but completely strike out on pitchers and that could set the franchise back years. 
 
Without doing any research, it seems that it's easier for teams to procure close-to-elite-level production on the hitters market than on the pitching market.  Haven't the As shown us that?  With pitching, if a team doesn't have young, cost-controlled arms in their rotation, it's going to be difficult to contend.
 

There are all sorts of things they might do -- it sounds like they're keeping their options open, as they should. Let's not waste time banging our heads against the wall about trades they haven't made yet. The truth is, despite all the breathless tweets and rampant speculation, we have no clue what they will end up doing, and neither do they. There are contingencies on top if contingencies here.
 

 
While I agree with the sentiment, what are we supposed to do with our free (or not-so-free time) if we can't bang our heads about trades that may never occur? 

 

[Super Nomario]

So in your eyes he is untradeable? I don't understand. You're talking about a league average outfielder that will be 32 in spring training. It depends what direction they want to take the team. If they're going with a youth movement then it's better served giving his at bats to Hassan/Brentz/other prospect. Nava's years of cost control is what gives him some value. If you could actually get a C+ B- prospect for him then you make the deal.

On the other side of the coin you have people on here that if faced with the prospect of getting Stanton feels the Sox should hold off because they have Nava.

I agree Nava is a limited player, but he has decent OBP skills, which is nothing to sneeze at. If you get blown away, sure, trade him, but for a C+ / B- prospect? The Red Sox have a lot of those kind of guys - what they don't have are OF who are MLB-quality hitters. The OF has been a train wreck this year because they haven't been able to find three guys who can hit; I'm not sure why you'd trade one for a song when you're already losing Gomes.

 

[MakMan44]

 
I wonder how that makes sense.  I agree that pitching is more volatile - that means Theo could assemble a good hitting club but completely strike out on pitchers and that could set the franchise back years. 
 
Without doing any research, it seems that it's easier for teams to procure close-to-elite-level production on the hitters market than on the pitching market.  Haven't the As shown us that?  With pitching, if a team doesn't have young, cost-controlled arms in their rotation, it's going to be difficult to contend.

The A's and the Cubs have gone about gathering elite hitters in the completely opposite direction. I wouldn't call either approach easy. 
 
The reason that Theo is taking his approach though is that elite pitchers are much more likely to hit the market than elite hitters are. For example, Lester and Scherzer are going to hit the market. I could totally see Theo getting into the Lester bidding. OTOH, the best hitter is probably Hanley and he's been injured quite a few times this year. I like what Theo's doing, but I don't disagree with you that it has a fair amount of risk. 
 
Forgot to mention: They can also trade for CC pitching with their prospects. Theo's leaving a lot of options open to get the Cub's pitching. It's pretty impressive honestly. 
 
What Rudy say too. 

 

[glennhoffmania]

If you are using tapatalk, the twitter thing doesn't work.  Sorry.

 
No I'm on a computer using Firefox.  Does it not work on Firefox for some reason?

 

[Red(s)HawksFan]

 
No I'm on a computer using Firefox.  Does it not work on Firefox for some reason?

 
I'm on Firefox and it works for me.  Ad block of some sort?

 

[glennhoffmania]

 
I'm on Firefox and it works for me.  Ad block of some sort?

 
Eh maybe.  My company blocks a lot of shit.

 

[Plympton91]

 
Geez, you act like there won't be free agent pitchers available.  They could get 2-4 top prospects for Lester and Lackey and sign Scherzer and Masterson.  They probably won't even lose their 1st rounder because they'll be one of the worst 10 teams in the league.  With all those added prospects, they can go get Stanton or someone big.  I can't believe some of you think the Red Sox will go with an ALL-ROOKIE lineup this year.  Calm down, what they could acccomplish is pretty brilliant.

If you like fantasy league baseball.

 

[Savin Hillbilly]

Wouldn't Rosenthal have written "either" instead of "BOTH" if he didn't mean both?

 
But "both" is ambiguous in this context. It could mean "both Lackey and Lester are available, but the Sox will only trade one of them". Or it could mean "both Lackey and Lester are available, and the Sox might trade both of them." If Rosenthal meant the former, he might interpret "did you mean 'either'?" as equivalent to "did you mean that one of these guys is available and the other isn't, but you don't know which is which?" Which would explain the cranky response.

 

[Plympton91]

Exactly. I thought the Sox were a power-pitcher and power bat away from owning this division for years. But instead, the team is getting blown-up to get max value for its pieces. I feel this is either some form of fantasy baseball or a diamond iteration of Gordon Gekko's Wall St restructuring circa 1989.  

+1

 

[bankshot1]

+1

HEH
 
Blue horseshoe loves Anacott Steel and Jon Lester.

 

[Plympton91]

A sarcastic reference to the fact that our FO is not smarter than everybody else in MLB. They just aren't. Constructing a title competitor is really hard, for everyone. There are a lot of bright people in this business.

If anyone thinks we can fool the world -- exploiting a market inefficiency that exists in July but will dissipate by November, sending Lester and Lackey packing and then replacing their production for less -- then prepare for disappointment because it's a pipe dream.

And if you're not replacing them for less -- if you're prepared to give Scherzer, for example , $150 million or more -- what is the point of this wheel spinning?

And what do you do if FAs, or trade partners just happen to say no and look in another direction?

If these two guys go, they are creating a very risky environment for players who want to win to enter. It's not enough that we're Boston.

Extremely well said. The Red Sox really do have a great ownership and front office team, but they're not the only highly competent teams out there, nor are they the richest. In addition to the Dodgers and Yankees who can always pay more, you've got the Cubs with massive amounts of money, prospects, flexibility, and Theo saying that 2014 is the last year they'll be sellers; you've got Seattle who will be looking for their final piece or three and lots of money to pay them, etc. And remember Loria offered Pujols $200 million; there's no reason to believe Stanton will ever be available.

 

[OttoC]

Exactly. I thought the Sox were a power-pitcher and power bat away from owning this division for years. But instead, the team is getting blown-up to get max value for its pieces. I feel this is either some form of fantasy baseball or a diamond iteration of Gordon Gekko's Wall St restructuring circa 1989.  

 
And is this power hitter they are short the one who will be soon replacing Ortiz or is it one in addition to Ortiz?

 

[mabrowndog]

So in your eyes he is untradeable? I don't understand. You're talking about a league average outfielder that will be 32 in spring training. It depends what direction they want to take the team. If they're going with a youth movement then it's better served giving his at bats to Hassan/Brentz/other prospect. Nava's years of cost control is what gives him some value. If you could actually get a C+ B- prospect for him then you make the deal.

On the other side of the coin you have people on here that if faced with the prospect of getting Stanton feels the Sox should hold off because they have Nava.

 
Your post (and others mentioning Nava the past several weeks) have merely lumped him in with expiring contracts as the sort of disposable fodder that's usually dealt away by struggling teams at the deadline. Trading a club-controlled player with immense value (and make no mistake, Nava's production relative to cost makes his value IMMENSE) at the fucking trade deadline -- when only the contenders are buying -- is one of the worst strategies any team can employ.
 
Come the off-season, if there's a package available to bring Stanton to Boston, then of course you consider moving Nava to facilitate it. But Stanton's not being traded away at the deadline.
 
 

I know offense is down in the last few years but I think you're being a bit too kind to Nava with your choices of verbs/adjectives in describing these slash lines. The OBP is good but overall I don't think these lines are as impressive as you're making them out to be.

 
Oh, OK. Here's a list of all MLB outfielders over the past 2 seasons with at least 200 total PA vs RHP, sorted by their wRC+ against righties (data from Fangraphs):
 
[tablegrid=]# Name Team PA BB% K% OBP SLG OPS ISO Spd wRC wRAA wOBA wRC+ 1 Mike Trout LAA 848 12.7 % 21.1 % .412 .582 .994 .260 2.6 165 72.3 .422 177 2 Yasiel Puig LAD 640 8.9 % 21.4 % .391 .543 .934 .227 2.4 115 45.0 .403 164 3 Andrew McCutchen PIT 927 11.9 % 17.5 % .399 .507 .906 .196 1.6 157 56.3 .391 154 4 Lucas Duda NYM 577 13.3 % 21.0 % .376 .515 .892 .252 0.1 95 32.3 .385 151 5 Shin-Soo Choo CIN-TEX 790 15.9 % 19.5 % .416 .474 .890 .190 0.9 135 49.2 .392 149 6 Brandon Moss OAK 746 10.2 % 23.5 % .347 .538 .885 .274 1.4 120 38.5 .379 145 7 Corey Dickerson COL 389 8.5 % 19.0 % .371 .566 .937 .251 2.6 69 26.2 .399 142 8 Bryce Harper WAS 465 12.0 % 19.1 % .371 .500 .871 .219 1.4 73 22.3 .375 140 9 Matt Holliday STL 775 10.1 % 14.3 % .370 .482 .852 .195 0.4 120 35.8 .372 140 10 Carlos Gonzalez COL 454 10.4 % 24.7 % .357 .565 .922 .286 2.6 79 29.0 .395 139 11 Michael Cuddyer COL 497 7.0 % 17.5 % .382 .529 .911 .193 0.9 86 31.3 .394 138 12 Coco Crisp OAK 621 13.0 % 10.3 % .374 .471 .844 .186 1.4 94 26.7 .368 137 13 Daniel Nava BOS 580 9.8 % 16.2 % .400 .448 .848 .137 0.1 91 28.1 .375 136 14 Jayson Werth WAS 743 10.2 % 19.2 % .370 .465 .836 .178 0.1 113 32.0 .368 136 15 Jose Bautista TOR 760 14.2 % 15.8 % .377 .481 .858 .213 0.1 119 36.3 .374 135 16 Seth Smith OAK-SD 624 11.2 % 19.2 % .366 .466 .832 .187 1.4 92 24.3 .363 135 17 Kole Calhoun LAA 396 9.3 % 17.2 % .346 .483 .829 .201 1.6 58 14.9 .361 135 18 Christian Yelich SEA 472 12.1 % 22.5 % .387 .446 .833 .143 1.9 72 20.7 .369 135 19 Michael Brantley CLE 711 6.9 % 7.6 % .360 .475 .834 .163 0.6 106 28.1 .364 134 20 Carlos Beltran STL-NYY 623 7.7 % 14.9 % .346 .493 .839 .201 0.9 92 24.3 .363 132 [/tablegrid]So despite his dearth of traditional home run power and almost non-existent speed, Daniel Fucking Nava has been the 13th-best offensive outfielder in all of baseball against righties the last two seasons. How do those verbs/adjectives work for you now?
 
If I also added their salaries and contract status (something I might do when I get a little more time), I'd have to use 72-point font to highlight what a bargain Nava's been (and figures to be over the next 2 years) relative to most of the other names on that list.
 
 

Nava is a nice left handed bat who crushes RHP. I'm sure given his control he could fetch a decent prospect with a little more of a ceiling. 

 
This  -- along with Tyrone's assertion that "If you could actually get a C+ B- prospect for him then you make the deal" -- is by far the most ridiculous part of this whole approach. LOOK AT THE FUCKING CHART. You seriously want to take a guy who's actually reached the majors AND produced at that level, who projects to still be a bargain for at least the next two seasons, and trade him for a "decent" "C+ B-" prospect who MIGHT reach the majors at some point, and who MIGHT produce at an even higher level than 13th in wRC+ in all of baseball vs RHP? And you want to do this at the trade deadline with a limited pool of buying teams?
 
I'm at a loss. I mean, holy shit. What are you people smoking?
 
EDIT - Fixed table sort parameters. Carp (132 wRC+) would rank 21st.

 

[CarolinaBeerGuy]

 
Eh maybe.  My company blocks a lot of shit.

If they block Twitter access that would explain it.

 

[bankshot1]

 
And is this power hitter they are short the one who will be soon replacing Ortiz or is it one in addition to Ortiz?

In addition to, but who knows maybe if we can get three top prospects for Nap...
 
The idea (hope) was resign Lester, and add a RH power hitter, either through FA or a trade.

 

[Plympton91]

If JBJ plays center Vic is in right for most of the games and Nava platoon is in left the only position to substantially upgrade is SS/3b and X will be in one of those positions . Nava is good at what he does but his RHH counterpart is vital and sure it could be Mookie but I'd think you'd want to give him more time. 
 
Nava is a nice left handed bat who crushes RHP. I'm sure given his control he could fetch a decent prospect with a little more of a ceiling. 

An overlooked thing is that Nava, with the ability to play 1B and a little RF, who will make at most $2 million next year, and who has shown that he can be productive in a part-time role is an ideal backup. I am not opposed to trading him for full value, because they've got players than can use instead of him. But they shouldn't be looking to dump him at all.

I find it odd that you see Bradley as simply bequeathed another chance to not hit at all again next year. After his little resurgence, Bradley is 3-19 with a walk over the past week. Is that just another mini-slump or is the league adjusting to his adjustment? To me, one of the most obvious places to upgrade this team remains CF. I'm hoping that Betts can win the job outright away from Bradley. Or, maybe that is as simple as platooning Bradley with Victorino to open up a slot for the power hitter in the corner that they need. The CF market otherwise looks awful.

 

[MakMan44]

I find it odd that you see Bradley as simply bequeathed another chance to not hit at all again next year. After his little resurgence, Bradley is 3-19 with a walk over the past week. Is that just another mini-slump or is the league adjusting to his adjustment? To me, one of the most obvious places to upgrade this team remains CF. I'm hoping that Betts can win the job outright away from Bradley. Or, maybe that is as simple as platooning Bradley with Victorino to open up a slot for the power hitter in the corner that they need. The CF market otherwise looks awful.

You answered your own inquiry there. 

 

[Savin Hillbilly]

An overlooked thing is that Nava, with the ability to play 1B and a little RF, who will make at most $2 million next year, and who has shown that he can be productive in a part-time role is an ideal backup.

 
Is there any evidence that his "ability" in either of these regards is superior to what we would expect of any replacement-level LF we pulled off the street? I haven't seen it. He has looked mediocre at both positions. I'm not saying some of the other arguments in favor of keeping rather than shopping him might not have some merit, but I think his supposed versatility is a red herring. Fringe starters need to be able to cover multiple positions. He has been asked to do that because he is a fringe starter. If we replace him with another fringe starter, that guy will probably be asked to do the same thing, and most likely do it about as well.

 

[jimbobim]

I find it odd that you see Bradley as simply bequeathed another chance to not hit at all again next year. After his little resurgence, Bradley is 3-19 with a walk over the past week. Is that just another mini-slump or is the league adjusting to his adjustment? To me, one of the most obvious places to upgrade this team remains CF. I'm hoping that Betts can win the job outright away from Bradley. Or, maybe that is as simple as platooning Bradley with Victorino to open up a slot for the power hitter in the corner that they need. The CF market otherwise looks awful.
 
I would not be giving anything to Bradley but if he can hit 250 with a 315-320ish OBP by the time the year is out I doubt the FO is  going to shrug and say "We tried" and move Betts in there. As you noted the the CF market is headlined by Colby Rasmus. 
 
He's been similar to an Andrelton Simmons type in CF with the runs he saves/prevents with his glove ( Runs saved wise I 'm sure he's ten runs behind or so Simmons but that's more of a testament to Simmons being a filthy god with the glove ) 
 
This offense should be strong enough to cover for JBJ batting 9th for at least next year I would say. I don't think that's unreasonable to demand of the rest of this lineup(aka the corner OF spots and the left side of the INF need to be above average at the plate). I'll bet on JBJ's upside over Nava and his zero power from a corner OF slot. If he's amendable to an Eric Chavez role playing off the bench more then your typical bench player I'm fine with it. 

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

Mabrowndog you have changed my mind. Carp and Nava are clearly on the level of Joey Bats and Matt Holliday by that chart. I mean look at the chart!!! LOOK AT IT! Both players have an insane amount of value and should fetch the Red Sox a massive package of prospects or we should hold onto them both!

Here is the problem. If they are that good against right handers which is also subjective to having a smaller sample size than McCutchen Bats Holliday have then they must be putrid against lefties. This year Nava is hitting .128 against lefties in 41 at bats. Last year he hit .252 in 139 at bats. This does make him a great platoon player for Gomes. But this doesn't make him irreplaceable. Remember this was a guy who the Sox decided to was so irreplaceable 2 months ago that they sent him to Pawtucket.

Nava has been much better as of late. But if someone offers a solid prospect then I would hope the Sox would make the deal and thank him for the ring. Both Nava and Carp enjoyed career years during 2013. I'm not trying to be a dick but I think you're massively overrating Nava. He's a limited but useful player that you're making out to be a 10 time all star.

 

[someoneanywhere]

 
I'm at a loss. I mean, holy shit. What are you people smoking?

 
 

If they block Twitter access that would explain it.

 

[SouthernBoSox]

An overlooked thing is that Nava, with the ability to play 1B and a little RF, who will make at most $2 million next year, and who has shown that he can be productive in a part-time role is an ideal backup. I am not opposed to trading him for full value, because they've got players than can use instead of him. But they shouldn't be looking to dump him at all.

I find it odd that you see Bradley as simply bequeathed another chance to not hit at all again next year. After his little resurgence, Bradley is 3-19 with a walk over the past week. Is that just another mini-slump or is the league adjusting to his adjustment? To me, one of the most obvious places to upgrade this team remains CF. I'm hoping that Betts can win the job outright away from Bradley. Or, maybe that is as simple as platooning Bradley with Victorino to open up a slot for the power hitter in the corner that they need. The CF market otherwise looks awful.

What about 3b? what about short? What about right field? What about catcher?
 
Jackie Bradley Jr. is 4th on this team in WAR behind Dustin Pedroia, Brock Holt, and Mike Napoli.  Despite that you continue to bring him up because it fits your agenda. This happens in literally  every. single. thread.

 

[MakMan44]

Nava has been much better as of late. But if someone offers a solid prospect then I would hope the Sox would make the deal and thank him for the ring. Both Nava and Carp enjoyed career years during 2013. I'm not trying to be a dick but I think you're massively overrating Nava. He's a limited but useful player that you're making out to be a 10 time all star.

No, browndog is not. He's saying he's very good against RHP and that's very useful while he's cost controlled. 

 

[glennhoffmania]

What about 3b? what about short? What about right field? What about catcher?
 
Jackie Bradley Jr. is 4th on this team in WAR behind Dustin Pedroia, Brock Holt, and Mike Napoli.  Despite that you continue to bring him up because it fits your agenda. This happens in literally  every. single. thread.

 
Yup.  It's like a mean spirited anti-EV.  Here are JBJ's wOBA by month:
 
April: .323
May: .219
June: .256
July: .337
 
But wait, he's only 3 for his last 19 so he clearly can't cut it in the majors.  They should've signed Ellsbury.

 

[jimbobim]

 
Your post (and others mentioning Nava the past several weeks) have merely lumped him in with expiring contracts as the sort of disposable fodder that's usually dealt away by struggling teams at the deadline. Trading a club-controlled player with immense value (and make no mistake, Nava's production relative to cost makes his value IMMENSE) at the fucking trade deadline -- when only the contenders are buying -- is one of the worst strategies any team can employ.
 
Come the off-season, if there's a package available to bring Stanton to Boston, then of course you consider moving Nava to facilitate it. But Stanton's not being traded away at the deadline.
 
 
 
Oh, OK. Here's a list of all MLB outfielders over the past 2 seasons with at least 200 total PA vs RHP, sorted by their wRC+ against righties:
 
[tablegrid=]# Name Team PA BB% K% OBP SLG OPS ISO Spd wRC wRAA wOBA wRC+ 1 Mike Trout LAA 848 12.7 % 21.1 % .412 .582 .994 .260 2.6 165 72.3 .422 177 2 Yasiel Puig LAD 640 8.9 % 21.4 % .391 .543 .934 .227 2.4 115 45.0 .403 164 3 Corey Dickerson COL 389 8.5 % 19.0 % .371 .566 .937 .251 2.6 69 26.2 .399 142 4 Carlos Gonzalez COL 454 10.4 % 24.7 % .357 .565 .922 .286 2.6 79 29.0 .395 139 5 Michael Cuddyer COL 497 7.0 % 17.5 % .382 .529 .911 .193 0.9 86 31.3 .394 138 6 Shin-Soo Choo CIN-TEX 790 15.9 % 19.5 % .416 .474 .890 .190 0.9 135 49.2 .392 149 7 Andrew McCutchen PIT 927 11.9 % 17.5 % .399 .507 .906 .196 1.6 157 56.3 .391 154 8 Lucas Duda NYM 577 13.3 % 21.0 % .376 .515 .892 .252 0.1 95 32.3 .385 151 9 Brandon Moss OAK 746 10.2 % 23.5 % .347 .538 .885 .274 1.4 120 38.5 .379 145 10 Bryce Harper WAS 465 12.0 % 19.1 % .371 .500 .871 .219 1.4 73 22.3 .375 140 11 Matt Holliday STL 775 10.1 % 14.3 % .370 .482 .852 .195 0.4 120 35.8 .372 140 12 Coco Crisp OAK 621 13.0 % 10.3 % .374 .471 .844 .186 1.4 94 26.7 .368 137 13 Daniel Nava BOS 580 9.8 % 16.2 % .400 .448 .848 .137 0.1 91 28.1 .375 136 14 Jayson Werth WAS 743 10.2 % 19.2 % .370 .465 .836 .178 0.1 113 32.0 .368 136 15 Jose Bautista TOR 760 14.2 % 15.8 % .377 .481 .858 .213 0.1 119 36.3 .374 135 16 Christian Yelich MIA 472 12.1 % 22.5 % .387 .446 .833 .143 1.9 72 20.7 .369 135 17 Michael Brantley CLE 711 6.9 % 7.6 % .360 .475 .834 .163 0.6 106 28.1 .364 134 18 Mike Carp BOS 291 10.3 % 23.4 % .364 .488 .852 .206 2.1 45 13.0 .370 132 19 Colby Rasmus TOR 523 7.8 % 29.4 % .327 .513 .840 .249 1.1 78 21.1 .365 129 20 Charlie Blackmon COL 487 6.0 % 14.0 % .362 .482 .844 .168 1.4 74 20.7 .367 119 [/tablegrid]
 
So despite his dearth of traditional home run power and almost non-existent speed, Daniel Fucking Nava has been the 13th-best offensive outfielder in all of baseball against righties the last two seasons. How do those verbs/adjectives work for you now?
 
If I also added their salaries and contract status (something I might do when I get a little more time), I'd have to use 72-point font to highlight what a bargain Nava's been (and figures to be over the next 2 years) relative to most of the other names on that list.
 
 
 
This  -- along with Tyrone's assertion that "If you could actually get a C+ B- prospect for him then you make the deal" -- is by far the most ridiculous part of this whole approach. LOOK AT THE FUCKING CHART. You seriously want to take a guy who's actually reached the majors AND produced at that level, who projects to still be a bargain for at least the next two seasons, and trade him for a "decent" "C+ B-" prospect who MIGHT reach the majors at some point, and who MIGHT produce at an even higher level than 13th in wRC+ in all of baseball vs RHP? And you want to do this at the trade deadline with a limited pool of buying teams?
 
I'm at a loss. I mean, holy shit. What are you people smoking?

 
 
Nava is useful I'm  not arguing that. 
 
Two things you can't argue even with your Nava love. 
 
1) He is unplayable against lefties which demands you fill another roster spot with someone who can cover up that weakness. 
 
2) He is dead last (excluding Yelich ) by a large margin on that list in SLG pct which this team desperately needs and which any baseball team usually expects from the OF. JBJ is not going to morph into a HR hitter. Vic provided he stays on the field makes two OF with negligible power and then Nava gets the majority of time in LF against RH ? Sorry I'm not sold on that plan and it failed pretty miserably this year. 

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

No, browndog is not. He's saying he's very good against RHP and that's very useful while he's cost controlled. 

Never said he wasn't. But this is a guy who is almost 32, limited, and in reality has had one big year. The cost controlled thing goes a long way. But there are plenty of 32 year old 4th outfielders that I'm sure the Red Sox could pick up in the offseason. If you have the ability to grab a 23 year old prospect that has a higher ceiling than him then why wouldn't you?

 

[Stitch01]

Source? The ownership group is perfectly happy running one of MLB's premier franchises. They have three rings to show for their investment. John Henry owns the Boston Globe and from what I've heard directly from a couple of his employees, he's around the building a ton and is attempting to learn every aspect of the business. Doesn't sound to me like someone who wants to cash out of the Red Sox.

Can't give the source and completely understand if you dismiss it as a guy on a message board.

 

[MakMan44]

Never said he wasn't. But this is a guy who is almost 32, limited, and in reality has had one big year. The cost controlled thing goes a long way. But there are plenty of 32 year old 4th outfielders that I'm sure the Red Sox could pick up in the offseason. If you have the ability to grab a 23 year old prospect that has a higher ceiling than him then why wouldn't you?

Because the prospect might not even reach the majors. What do you think we're going to get for Nava? A top 100 prospect? Anything lower than that and I'd take the bet that Nava will outproduce that prospect in the majors. 
 
And I seriously, seriously doubt you're going to find a 4th OF as useful as Nava has been on the FA market. 

 

[Stitch01]

An overlooked thing is that Nava, with the ability to play 1B and a little RF, who will make at most $2 million next year, and who has shown that he can be productive in a part-time role is an ideal backup. I am not opposed to trading him for full value, because they've got players than can use instead of him. But they shouldn't be looking to dump him at all.
I find it odd that you see Bradley as simply bequeathed another chance to not hit at all again next year. After his little resurgence, Bradley is 3-19 with a walk over the past week. Is that just another mini-slump or is the league adjusting to his adjustment? To me, one of the most obvious places to upgrade this team remains CF. I'm hoping that Betts can win the job outright away from Bradley. Or, maybe that is as simple as platooning Bradley with Victorino to open up a slot for the power hitter in the corner that they need. The CF market otherwise looks awful.

It's less risky to not bring outside help in next year precisely because they have Betts as well. Given Victorino is in RF and Betts can move around there's plenty of ABs for everyone as even if Victorino is healthy he's not playing everyday. If Betts or Bradley moves in a Stanton deal, then they probably need an outside option for insurance unless Bradley really picks it up.