Red Sox Deadline Discussion

[Super Nomario]

This offense should be strong enough to cover for JBJ batting 9th for at least next year I would say. I don't think that's unreasonable to demand of the rest of this lineup(aka the corner OF spots and the left side of the INF need to be above average at the plate). I'll bet on JBJ's upside over Nava and his zero power from a corner OF slot. If he's amendable to an Eric Chavez role playing off the bench more then your typical bench player I'm fine with it. 

What's going to change between now and Opening Day 2015 that the offense will be good enough to cover for a black hole in CF? This team's hitting is pure garbage, and Bradley is one of the biggest culprits; I don't know why CF would be excluded from an analysis of how to get more offensive production.
 

Nava has been much better as of late. But if someone offers a solid prospect then I would hope the Sox would make the deal and thank him for the ring. Both Nava and Carp enjoyed career years during 2013. I'm not trying to be a dick but I think you're massively overrating Nava. He's a limited but useful player that you're making out to be a 10 time all star.

I agree that Nava's largely a one-year wonder and a limited player unlikely to reach his 2013 heights, but I think you're massive overrating the value of prospects. Nava is a useful, cost-controlled major league player; I don't think they should dump him for a guy who might be good in a couple years but might never amount to anything.
 

What about 3b? what about short? What about right field? What about catcher?
 
Jackie Bradley Jr. is 4th on this team in WAR behind Dustin Pedroia, Brock Holt, and Mike Napoli.  Despite that you continue to bring him up because it fits your agenda. This happens in literally  every. single. thread.

JBJ being 4th in WAR is more a testament to how awful the team's position players have been than it is praise for Bradley. The Red Sox should be trying to get more offense out of CF next year. Hopefully that's Bradley improving, but there should be alternatives in place if he doesn't.

 

[DJnVa]

Well, that's completely b/c of his defense (same goes for Pedroia). Notice Ortiz isn't on that list. Complaining about JBJ's historically bad offensive performance doesn't mean he can't field...

 
Historically bad? I mean, his offense has been pretty shitty, but it's not historically bad unless you don't know what "historically bad" means.

 

[jimbobim]

What's going to change between now and Opening Day 2015 that the offense will be good enough to cover for a black hole in CF? This team's hitting is pure garbage, and Bradley is one of the biggest culprits; I don't know why CF would be excluded from an analysis of how to get more offensive production.
 
Really ? 
 
How about Victorino (has played what 30 games ?) the pretty much blackhole of LF given the collapse of the platoon for much of the year 3B SS 2B( not even close to what they need from Pedroia which is where I would put the "biggest" culprit tag) Catcher.
 
DH and 1B are pretty much the only positions that have held their water and Pedroia isn't going anywhere. 
 
I mean the list of culprits for our shit show of an offense is pretty long before I get to Bradley who is actually contributing something with his glove and has looked good since he opened his stance . 

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

Because the prospect might not even reach the majors. What do you think we're going to get for Nava? A top 100 prospect? Anything lower than that and I'd take the bet that Nava will outproduce that prospect in the majors. 
 
And I seriously, seriously doubt you're going to find a 4th OF as useful as Nava has been on the FA market. 

Maybe not. Maybe your 4th outfielder becomes Hassan. I'll admit that I'm not sure about the free agent outfield options but if the biggest problem the team has next year is finding a bat to play 3-4 times a week to crush righties then the Sox will be in excellent shape to contend again.

 

[smastroyin]

Time for everyone to stop talking about JBJ unless there is actual deadline related discussion (what has been in this thread so far is not that)
 
I don't want to read Rudy and p91's same old opinions reiterated for the 365624359326568427th time this season.  It's boring and it's not discussion.  No one is changing their mind.
 
Trade deadline threads are enough of a cluster without getting into this shit again.
 
I'm totally serious. 

 

[RedOctober3829]

McAdam on 98.5 TSH:
 
Lester is the best guy out there.  The number of teams interested are growing by the minute including TOronto, Oakland, Atlanta, and Milwaukee showing significant interest.  Talking to people, the feeling is Toronto is being the most aggressive.  They would trade within the division minus the Yankees.  They are in a pretty good position because they  have a real good premium they are offering.  They are sifting through the offers and see what they have by the deadline.
 
Lester absolutely would sign with the Red Sox if they trade him.  Everyone thinks this is lip service.  I don't believe it for a minute.  I take Lester at his word that this is where he prefers to be.  Where he wants to end his career.  McAdam isn't sure what the Red Sox are doing and we won't know the answer from the FO for some time.  The notion that there is a hometown discount is out the window now.  It was there in the spring.  Now, it's market value.  They see signing Lester as a risk, signing a pitcher into his 30's dangerous business.
 
Lackey: he has some real interest and value.  Lester is a rental, but Lackey is under control for another season and at a bargain.  They would really have to be overwhelmed on Lackey.  You are looking at the prospect of Clay Buchholz as the most established starter.  They are willing to listen on anyone, but would be very surprised if both Lester and Lackey are moved.
 
Koji: The expectation is that the qualifying offer will be $15 million.  It's an easy mechanism to lock him in and know the closers role is ensured for another year.
 
Drew: I was told by some people that it's more likely that Drew gets moved in August than now.
 
On Farrell: Just get through the next few days, reset, and ensure that they be competitive for the next 2 months.  Hard job with players wanting to be dealt.

 

[OttoC]

 
Nope.
And again, you're not offering THE farm. You're offering a part of the farm. The Sox have enough top prospects and will accumulate more likely in the next 3 days to have some left. They won't be completely barren....

 
Get real. If they have so much talent down on the farm, why would they need to worry about making trades for someone like Stanton? They took top prospects with little AA experience, moved them to AAA, then up to the Bigs. That didn't pan as expected. In the next wave, they stripped more kids with little experience out of AA to fill out the AAA roster. Do we expect them too be the saviors in 2015. Even with the pitchers, which is the strength of the higher levels, the expectations of many on this board are irrational. Who can step in next year as a number one starter on a par with Lester.
 
Go to bb-ref and look at the yearly pitching stats for the PawSox and see how many pitchers came up and made a big impact with Boston. Remember 1997 when they had Carl Pavano and Brian Rose? All the Red Sox fans were raving about the solid foundation the club was going to have. Pavano never pitched for Boston (he did lead to them getting Pedro Martinez) and was 108-107 in his career. Brian Rose (17-5 with PAW) was 11-15 with the Red Sox and 15-23 overall in the majors.
 
Oooh. Oooh. He's our number one prospect. I'm so excited I wet my pants. Well, there are 29 other clubs that have a number one prospect and if you just ranked those, one of them would be in the 30th spot. However, some clubs might have other prospects that rank higher than your number one, so he could be even farther down the list. Prospect ranking needs to be taken with a grain of salt.

 

[Super Nomario]

 
What's going to change between now and Opening Day 2015 that the offense will be good enough to cover for a black hole in CF? This team's hitting is pure garbage, and Bradley is one of the biggest culprits; I don't know why CF would be excluded from an analysis of how to get more offensive production.
 
Really ? 
 
How about Victorino (has played what 30 games ?) the pretty much blackhole of LF given the collapse of the platoon for much of the year 3B SS 2B( not even close to what they need from Pedroia which is where I would put the "biggest" culprit tag) Catcher.
 
DH and 1B are pretty much the only positions that have held their water and Pedroia isn't going anywhere. 
 
I mean the list of culprits for our shit show of an offense is pretty long before I get to Bradley who is actually contributing something with his glove and has looked good since he opened his stance . 

I don't really disagree with your assessment of 2014, but I also don't assume it's going to get a lot better in 2015 on its own. Are you sure Victorino's going to be healthy next year? What's the LF offense look like (Gomes will be gone)? Are they going to be able to get production from SS / 3B, and from whom? Is Pedroia's power going to bounce back or is he going to fight niggling injuries all year again? If Vazquez (sub-.700 OPS in AAA) is going to be our C, is he going to be an improvement over what we got this year from the position? There are offensive questions up and down the lineup (including Napoli, who has a hip condition and Ortiz, who will be 39) and the Red Sox should be looking for answers anywhere they can find them - including CF.

 

[glennhoffmania]

 
Get real. If they have so much talent down on the farm, why would they need to worry about making trades for someone like Stanton? They took top prospects with little AA experience, moved them to AAA, then up to the Bigs. That didn't pan as expected. In the next wave, they stripped more kids with little experience out of AA to fill out the AAA roster. Do we expect them too be the saviors in 2015. Even with the pitchers, which is the strength of the higher levels, the expectations of many on this board are irrational. Who can step in next year as a number one starter on a par with Lester.
 
Go to bb-ref and look at the yearly pitching stats for the PawSox and see how many pitchers came up and made a big impact with Boston. Remember 1997 when they had Carl Pavano and Brian Rose? All the Red Sox fans were raving about the solid foundation the club was going to have. Pavano never pitched for Boston (he did lead to them getting Pedro Martinez) and was 108-107 in his career. Brian Rose (17-5 with PAW) was 11-15 with the Red Sox and 15-23 overall in the majors.
 
Oooh. Oooh. He's our number one prospect. I'm so excited I wet my pants. Well, there are 29 other clubs that have a number one prospect and if you just ranked those, one of them would be in the 30th spot. However, some clubs might have other prospects that rank higher than your number one, so he could be even farther down the list. Prospect ranking needs to be taken with a grain of salt.

 
Are you really making an argument about pitching prospects using win-loss records?

 

[HomeRunBaker]

 
Are you really making an argument about pitching prospects using win-loss records?

I was listening to Sports Hub a few weeks ago and Mazz said they are predictive and meaningful complete with "data" showing such. It was awesome.

 

[glennhoffmania]

In all seriousness, Pavano became a punch line but he had a decent career overall.  Per FG he was worth almost 24 wins.  He had a couple of really solid years for Florida and then some solid seasons with the Twins. Obviously Boston got the better end of the deal but pointing to Pavano's .500 record means shit.

 

[Plympton91]

What about 3b? what about short? What about right field? What about catcher?
 
Jackie Bradley Jr. is 4th on this team in WAR behind Dustin Pedroia, Brock Holt, and Mike Napoli.  Despite that you continue to bring him up because it fits your agenda. This happens in literally  every. single. thread.

Either 3B or SS should definitely be upgraded, hopefully they will address this weakness for 2015 before June 1st or whenever it was they signed Drew to make up for the failure of Middlebrooks to hit or stay healthy. As disappointing as Bogaerts has been, he's been significantly better than Bradley, and he's 3 or 4 years younger than Bradley, so much more likely to improve significantly.

Right field is definitely a place I'd look to upgrade, with Victorino then competing with Bradley and Betts for at bats in CF. Victorino would certainly be much more likely to be useful in 2015 than Sizemore was to be useful in 2014. The salary is a sunk cost, and should not dictate his role, especially if they're going to have 15 rookies and second year players on the team.

Catcher seems to be Vazquez's spot to lose, with Swihart almost ready. If they can find someone better than Ross, that would be great, but it won't cost a lot of money.

Again, you're the one bringing up past arguments. I understand this is frustrating for people, since I've been proven right about the folly of last offseason's strategy of dismantling the up the middle players on a championship team. But that is past, and the focus is on the future.

A semi-platoon of Victorino and Bradley in CF for 2015 would be a good way to ensure that you improve the offensive production there while protecting Vic's health and maximizing Bradley's ability to contribute on defense by using him as a late inning replacement. And the combined cost of the platoon of $14 million is easily within their budget. That leaves RF as a position that can be upgraded with a full time slugger, hopefully with the Stanton pipedream.

 

[Buzzkill Pauley]

 
Get real. If they have so much talent down on the farm, why would they need to worry about making trades for someone like Stanton?

 
Because with Sawdaye as Director of Amateur Scouting, the Sox have consistently taken pitchers and up-the-middle athletes with their upper round draft selections, which focus has been to the detriment of raw power in the system.  
 
Based on their selections from the top ten rounds in his tenure (2010-present), the Sox have drafted 51 "up-the-middle" position players or pitchers, but only 7 "power position" guys: Sam Travis and Josh Ockimey (2014), Nathan Minnich (2012, unsigned), Travis Shaw (2011), Kolbrin Vitek and Bryce Brentz and Henry Ramos (2010).
 
The international market is tough to separate out, because bonus amounts vary so greatly, but it also seems similarly focused.
 
Said another way, the Sox have been signing players with the highest aggregate value, in order to be used to acquire established power at the MLB level.  The biggest hole in that logic appears to me, that it often takes power to get power.
 
Case in point: Anthony Rizzo would sure look good in a Sox uniform right about now.
 
Or, blame impatience:  30-hr hitting Brandon Moss was the Sox #2 prospect...ten years ago.
 
Or, blame bad luck:  Ryan Westmoreland never even got to take his shot.
 
[edit]: To tie this into a deadline discussion, it seems obvious that the Sox need to acquire not only more pitching prospects for whomever they trade at the deadline, but a power prospect who could be pieced into an offseason trade instead of Bogaerts or Devers (think Andy Marte).

 

[soxhop411]

Ken Rosenthal ‏@Ken_Rosenthal  52s
Possible dynamic in #RedSox talks: Lester, Lackey are close. Lackey may not want to play for $500K in ’15 or sign extensn if Lester is gone.
 
 
https://twitter.com/Ken_Rosenthal/status/494161309815287811
 
if above is true it would make snese why they want to trade both

 

[OttoC]

In all seriousness, Pavano became a punch line but he had a decent career overall.  Per FG he was worth almost 24 wins.  He had a couple of really solid years for Florida and then some solid seasons with the Twins. Obviously Boston got the better end of the deal but pointing to Pavano's .500 record means shit.

 
Did Carl Pavano ever reach the heights expected of him by fans when he was a prospect? Did Brian Rose? Fans expected a #1 and #2 starter from the pair but Pavano was about a #4 pitcher in a rotation and Rose was a flop. Pavano's WAR was 17.0, with 9.3 of that coming in two season. Neither one of them could replace Lester or Lackey, yet they had the oooh, oooh fans piddling.

 

[absintheofmalaise]

 
Ken Rosenthal ‏@Ken_Rosenthal  52s
Possible dynamic in #RedSox talks: Lester, Lackey are close. Lackey may not want to play for $500K in ’15 or sign extensn if Lester is gone.
 
 
https://twitter.com/Ken_Rosenthal/status/494161309815287811
 
if above is true it would make snese why they want to trade both
 

This was already posted in the Lester thread. We don't need it here too. 

 

[soxhop411]

This was already posted in the Lester thread. We don't need it here too. 

even if it is in regards to Lackey? Since that thread is about trading Lester.

 

[alwyn96]

 
Did Carl Pavano ever reach the heights expected of him by fans when he was a prospect? Did Brian Rose? Fans expected a #1 and #2 starter from the pair but Pavano was about a #4 pitcher in a rotation and Rose was a flop. Pavano's WAR was 17.0, with 9.3 of that coming in two season. Neither one of them could replace Lester or Lackey, yet they had the oooh, oooh fans piddling.

 
I get your point - prospects don't always work out - but you're making it in such a childish, strawman-ish way that it's making me reconsider.

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

 
Did Carl Pavano ever reach the heights expected of him by fans when he was a prospect? Did Brian Rose? Fans expected a #1 and #2 starter from the pair but Pavano was about a #4 pitcher in a rotation and Rose was a flop. Pavano's WAR was 17.0, with 9.3 of that coming in two season. Neither one of them could replace Lester or Lackey, yet they had the oooh, oooh fans piddling.

 
Carl Pavano was at one point the number 1 pitching prospect in all of baseball. Injuries curtailed the high end of his career, but the hype was legit.
 
John Sickels had a good look at Pavano as a prospect a couple of years ago:
 

 
After an excellent spring training, Pavano jumped up to Double-A in 1996 at the age of 20, going 16-5, 2.63 with a 146/47 K/BB in 185 innings, 154 hits allowed. That's a lot of innings for a 20 year old, but there was less attention paid to pitch counts and workload 14 years ago. Pavano's statistical performance was excellent, and scouts gave his slider and changeup above average marks, also liking his solid command of his 90-92 MPH fastball. He was rated the Number Five prospect in the Eastern League by Baseball America, behind Vlad Guerrero, Scott Rolen, Jamey Wright, and Luis Castillo. I was highly impressed with him, giving him a Grade B+ and ranking him as the Number Four pitching prospect in baseball.

1997 got off to a slow start; he missed the first few weeks of the season with biceps tendinitis. Once he took the mound in May, he continued rolling along at Triple-A Pawtucket in 1997, going 11-6, 3.12 with a 147/34 K/BB in 162 innings, 148 hits. His fastball was up to 94 MPH, he developed a good curve to go with his slider, and his changeup continued to improve. He was sent over the border to Montreal in the Pedro Martinez trade, and was expected to be the young ace of the Expos staff for 1998. I gave him a Grade A- and rated him as the Number One pitching prospect in baseball entering '98, though I didn't give him a straight A due to concerns about his minor league workload and resultant injury risk.

Pavano had a decent rookie year for the Expos (4.21 ERA, 83/43 K/BB in 135 innings, 130 hits), but his pitching time was limited to 23 starts by injuries. Indeed, continued shoulder and elbow problems plagued him for years. He wasn't a bad pitcher when not in pain; indeed, he was quite good in 15 starts for the Expos in 2000 (3.06 ERA, 64/34 K/BB in 97 innings), but he just couldn't stay healthy, and he lost velocity on his fastball. His arm finally stabilized enough for him to make 32 starts for the Florida Marlins in 2003 and 31 more in 2004, going 18-8, 3.00 in the latter season and earning a big free agent contact with the Yankees for 2005.

 
Don't ascribe the thoughts of Pavano's potential to the fans. He was legit in every way. As happens to many pitching prospects, he was affected by injuries. But to scoff at his career is silly: the guy pitched for 14 years and had an ERA+ of 96, not great, but there's a lot of value in pitching league-average for a while.

 

[Rovin Romine]

 
Did Carl Pavano ever reach the heights expected of him by fans when he was a prospect? Did Brian Rose? Fans expected a #1 and #2 starter from the pair but Pavano was about a #4 pitcher in a rotation and Rose was a flop. Pavano's WAR was 17.0, with 9.3 of that coming in two season. Neither one of them could replace Lester or Lackey, yet they had the oooh, oooh fans piddling.

 
Imagine how bad they would have been if they were, like, injured or something.  

 

[smastroyin]

Any career that includes an extended relationship with Alyssa Milano has to be considered a success.

 

[glennhoffmania]

 
Did Carl Pavano ever reach the heights expected of him by fans when he was a prospect? Did Brian Rose? Fans expected a #1 and #2 starter from the pair but Pavano was about a #4 pitcher in a rotation and Rose was a flop. Pavano's WAR was 17.0, with 9.3 of that coming in two season. Neither one of them could replace Lester or Lackey, yet they had the oooh, oooh fans piddling.

 
So you're saying that prospects don't always end up being as good as their projections?  Hardly earth shattering.  That doesn't negate the fact that he was viewed very, very favorably at the time, as explained in SJH's post.

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

Any career that includes an extended relationship with Alyssa Milano has to be considered a success.

 
I'd give him bonus points for that if she hadn't already worked her way through 3 or the other members of the Marlins' staff er, rotation.

 

[Toe Nash]

 
Did Carl Pavano ever reach the heights expected of him by fans when he was a prospect? Did Brian Rose? Fans expected a #1 and #2 starter from the pair but Pavano was about a #4 pitcher in a rotation and Rose was a flop. Pavano's WAR was 17.0, with 9.3 of that coming in two season. Neither one of them could replace Lester or Lackey, yet they had the oooh, oooh fans piddling.

Apart from what everyone else has said, we have come a long way in understanding pitcher injuries and reducing workloads (as Sickels alludes to above) in just the time since Pavano was a prospect. People like to bring up the Mets' "Generation K" as a cautionary tale but if you look at their workloads in the minors they were just insane by today's standards. Lots of players still get TJ surgery, but they generally come back from that. Anecdotally I think getting a handle on pitch counts and workloads has led to fewer shredded shoulders or other really career-ending injuries.
 
The Sox may not have anyone that is at the prospect level of a Pavano, but I think if someone like Pavano were in their system now he would have a MUCH greater shot at staying healthy and reaching that potential.

 

[HomeRunBaker]

 
I'd give him bonus points for that if she hadn't already worked her way through 3 or the other members of the Marlins' staff er, rotation.

Adds new meaning to the phrase "taking his turn in the rotation every 5th day."

 

[TomRicardo]

 
Did Carl Pavano ever reach the heights expected of him by fans when he was a prospect? Did Brian Rose? Fans expected a #1 and #2 starter from the pair but Pavano was about a #4 pitcher in a rotation and Rose was a flop. Pavano's WAR was 17.0, with 9.3 of that coming in two season. Neither one of them could replace Lester or Lackey, yet they had the oooh, oooh fans piddling.

 
 
I am not sure what you are arguing.
 
The point of a minor league system for a big market team to develop assets.  Then you can use those assets to develop depth as well as use them to acquire front line talent.  Some of those depth assets may develop into star players but in general it is to grab young star players which then you can extend before they get to free agency.
 
Since 2003, this has been the approach of the Red Sox.  When they have deviated they have had disasters (Carl Crawford, Jenks, Clement, Renteria, Lugo, Lowell extension). And mixed results that would you could say were bad moves but helped them win WS in Lackey, Matsuzaka, and JD Drew.
 
The only players that was signed or extended post 30 that has worked out for the Red Sox is David Ortiz and Varitek as I recall

 

[absintheofmalaise]

even if it is in regards to Lackey? Since that thread is about trading Lester.

Yes. That tweet was just Rosenthal throwing pure speculation out there. The point is, just because someone sent out a tweet that has the name of a Sox player in it it doesn't mean it needs to be posted multiple times in multiple threads. Even if it's from a guy like Rosenthal. It contained no news or information from some source on a team.  

 

[Corsi]

Low-revenue Miami isn't going to be a big buyer, either, but it is in the market for young controllable starters, like Wade Mileyand Tommy Millone, but possibly even someone like Felix Doubront or Ross Detwiler, too.
 

http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/writer/jon-heyman/24641596/hot-marlins-wish-list-miley-millone-maybe-even-detwiler-doubront

 

[Hendu for Kutch]

 
I get your point - prospects don't always work out - but you're making it in such a childish, strawman-ish way that it's making me reconsider.

 
Ya, the condescension is especially puzzling when the entire point can be easily rebutted with a simple counter-example.  Johan Santana for Lester anyone?  Always take the proven guy!  Prospects flame out!!1!

 

[soxhop411]

Scott Lauber ‏@ScottLauber  1m
Baseball source: #RedSox could trade both Lester and Lackey only if they get starting pitching in return
 
https://twitter.com/ScottLauber/status/494214813292453888

 

[Hank Scorpio]

It's probably a pipe dream, but would Lackey plus a lesser prospect (Barnes, Workman, Webster?) or another useful piece entirely be enough to pry Walker from the Mariners?

And does Brock Holt have any real trade value?

 

[TomRicardo]

 
Scott Lauber ‏@ScottLauber  1m
Baseball source: #RedSox could trade both Lester and Lackey only if they get starting pitching in return
 
https://twitter.com/ScottLauber/status/494214813292453888
 

 
I would ask why.  I rather just go the season evaluating Buchholz, Workman, De La Rosa, Webster, Ranuado/Doubront/Escobar.  You could move Owens up to AAA 
 
That way you could get a feel for what you want as well as get some MLB experience for some of your starters in case you want to trade them this winter.

 

[MakMan44]

It's probably a pipe dream, but would Lackey plus a lesser prospect (Barnes, Workman, Webster?) or another useful piece entirely be enough to pry Walker from the Mariners?

And does Brock Holt have any real trade value?

Not enough to bring back a piece more useful than he is. 

 

[gammoseditor]

Yeah, it makes no sense to require a SP in return.  You have all offseason, the trade market, and internal options.  Maybe they told one team that because all of their best prospects are SP?  Like the Orioles would have to trade a SP. 

 

[Rovin Romine]

Yeah, it makes no sense to require a SP in return.  You have all offseason, the trade market, and internal options.  Maybe they told one team that because all of their best prospects are SP?  Like the Orioles would have to trade a SP. 

 
Depends on the SP.  
 
Sox get a young cost controlled SP
Trade Partner swaps out 1SP for Lester (WS run plus negotiating rights) and Lackey (WS run, plus 1 year control =ing a 2/3 year below market extension?)  
 
Plus as a practical matter, L and L pretty much will displace two starting pitchers on the acquiring team anyway. 

 

[gammoseditor]

 
Depends on the SP.  
 
Sox get a young cost controlled SP
Trade Partner swaps out 1SP for Lester (WS run plus negotiating rights) and Lackey (WS run, plus 1 year control =ing a 2/3 year below market extension?)  
 
Plus as a practical matter, L and L pretty much will displace two starting pitchers on the acquiring team anyway. 

 
I'm not ruling it out, but the tweet said they wouldn't move either unless they got one.  I don't see why it should be a requirement.

 

[soxhop411]

 
I'm not ruling it out, but the tweet said they wouldn't move either unless they got one.  I don't see why it should be a requirement.

It says Lester AND Lackey

 

[gammoseditor]

It says Lester AND Lackey

 
That's fine.  I still don't see the point.  You're probably not getting a #2 SP in 2015, which is what you want to bring in if you ship them out.  I think they should be looking for the best possible return for either. 

 

[mabrowndog]

It says Lester AND Lackey

 
But it doesn't say "together". They could trade Lester AND Lackey to separate teams.

 

[soxhop411]

 
But it doesn't say "together". They could trade Lester AND Lackey to separate teams.

I read the tweet as saying, that the only way they trade both Lester and Lackey is if in one of the trades they get an MLB ready pitcher in return. So I agree with you

 

[bankshot1]

I'm prepared for scorn and derision: Would Puig be avaialble for a package of Lester, plus high-prospects? I don't know what they need, but they're jammed in the OF, they want Kemp, we don't, Pederson is on the horizon. Could that possibly work?

 

[mabrowndog]

I'm prepared for scorn and derision: Would Puig be avaialble for a package of Lester, plus high-prospects? I don't know what they need, but they're jammed in the OF, they want Kemp, we don't, Pederson is on the horizon. Could that possibly work?

 
Puig is a lightning rod for attention, even from the most casual baseball fans. That's worth a ton to the Dodgers in terms of peripheral marketing. Every time he does something interesting, good or bad, on or off the field -- whether it's a Manny-esque gaffe in the field/on the base paths, or driving 110 mph -- links and tweets and Facebook "Like"s light up the internet.
 
He's also an insanely talented baseball player despite his warts, so I don't think there's a chance in hell L.A. parts with him.

 

[TomRicardo]

I'm prepared for scorn and derision: Would Puig be avaialble for a package of Lester, plus high-prospects? I don't know what they need, but they're jammed in the OF, they want Kemp, we don't, Pederson is on the horizon. Could that possibly work?

 
No. The Dodgers are not giving up their best position player for a pitching rental and prospects.  They would rather make Joc available.  They don't want Kemp, they just don't want to live in the world were they are going to have to pay someone else to play Kemp.  They still dream the Red Sox will give up Lester for a subsidized Kemp.
 
Edit - You really should be made fun of this.  No team in the middle of playoff push is trading their best positional player away for prospects and a rental.  Closest thing I can come up with is Manny Ramirez in 2008 for Jason Bay but Bay had another year on his contract and Manny was a pain in his walk year.  Puig has some time left.

 

[bankshot1]

 
Puig is a lightning rod for attention, even from the most casual baseball fans. That's worth a ton to the Dodgers in terms of peripheral marketing. Every time he does something interesting, good or bad, on or off the field -- whether it's a Manny-esque gaffe in the field/on the base paths, or driving 110 mph -- links and tweets and Facebook "Like"s light up the internet.
 
He's also an insanely talented baseball player despite his warts, so I don't think there's a chance in hell L.A. parts with him.

I know the baggage, (Manny Jr) but given the log jam in the LA OF, I wonder what pieces other than Lester might get the LAD's interested. Hell its only talk. We don't want Kemp, they don't want to trade prospects, but we got Lester in common.

 

[TomRicardo]

I know the baggage, (Manny Jr) but given the log jam in the LA OF, I wonder what pieces other than Lester might get the LAD's interested. Hell its only talk. We don't want Kemp, they don't want to trade prospects, but we got Lester in common.

 
Stop.  Really just stop.

 

[bankshot1]

 
No. The Dodgers are not giving up their best position player for a pitching rental and prospects.  They would rather make Joc available.  They don't want Kemp, they just don't want to live in the world were they are going to have to pay someone else to play Kemp.  They still dream the Red Sox will give up Lester for a subsidized Kemp.
 
Edit - You really should be made fun of this.  No team in the middle of playoff push is trading their best positional player away for prospects and a rental.  Closest thing I can come up with is Manny Ramirez in 2008 for Jason Bay but Bay had another year on his contract and Manny was a pain in his walk year.  Puig has some time left.

Tom sometimes you gotta think outside of the box.

 

[SoxFanInPdx]

Puig would get eaten alive in Boston. Eaten.Alive.

 

[Doctor G]

One thing people have to be aware of in this ongoing sale especially with regard to Lester is that this is going to be an extremely young team for the next three years at least. 
The player development  slog isn't going away. If you sign Lester for more than 4 years, he will be hitting the downside of his career just when all these kids are hitting their prime. The best three years of his production could well be used up in seasons much like this one.
 
That isn't good for JL or for JWH.
 
What isn't happening here is a cold eyed appraisal of the team going forward. They are going to be breaking in prospects for the next  three years.They will struggle. Anyone outside New England knows this is how it goes. 

 

[TomRicardo]

Tom sometimes you gotta think outside of the box.

 
The Red Sox are 10,000x more likely to end up Giancarlo Stanton Friday than Puig.

 

[twothousandone]

Not enough to bring back a piece more useful than he is. 

In addition to Holt, that applies to Miller and maybe Nava, as well. 
 

 
Scott Lauber ‏@ScottLauber  1m
Baseball source: #RedSox could trade both Lester and Lackey only if they get starting pitching in return

Has Billy Bean offered Samardzija and Millone for Lester?  I can see him as the kind of guy who would easily pocket four good July starts (five if he pitches well tonight), then look to upgrade for 2014, even if it means giving up another year of Samardzija.